How to increase shoulder and waist power?

[WanderingMonk]

Greetings,

I have been reading up materials on the white crane style and the key to its power seem to be the shoulder. Particularly, the ability to use shoulder (specifically the shoulder blade area) as the source of power instead of waist. This allows them to have knock out power even at very-close range (near to grappling range).

So, I was wondering if anyone know of good exercises to increase shoulder power (strength?) and flexibility. I know the white crane is probably using jing to achieve this. I think if I can figure out the bio-mechanical sequence (without knowing the specific breathing sequence), I still might get impressive result. I am also interested in any exercise that can increase waist power and flexibilty. I thought I'll experiment with replacing waist power with shoulder power while doing my form and see how it plays out.

thanks

wm

[Diamond Talons]

Wm good questions no doubts & shoulder power is a key to real short power but let me say that done wrong you screw up youself real bad & maybe for life even & if you're looking to put waist with shoulder then you really going to get some good stuffs in power no doubts. No reason to throw away waist Wm as it is great power place & trick is to make waist & shoulders one at time of issue force & I say issue not swallow as swallow should be from shoulder only & then put with waist to spit back & after a while it gets to be whole body. I got a forum guy doing this thing as known to my hand & waiting to see what he says about training this thing & you're right about distance from where most say grapple & I say from touch of finger tips no matter how much or less the arm put out but my hand says through finger tips as its a small area with length to penetrate deep into body & destroy insides of body not the outside muscles. Ngan fung pokes hole through body & fingers drive through small open hole to kill what's behind okay.

[Ben Gash]

San Jin ;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

indeed, the scapular belt is a major source of power in white crane (and many fujian/southern arts for that matter), but there is also a very important usage of the spine in a vertical wave. Using just your shoulder is a bit muscular, when you mix the scapula with the spine action, it gives a much more penetrating power (white crane calls it "trembling jing").

[Diamond Talons]

CP we say fold on the center & part of all jings in hand & not something only in some jings but not others as it is part of the whole & not to be broken out for here & there & I like wave as in sea example.

[WanderingMonk]

Thank you for all the replies although some answer is "a bit" over my head.

All I was expecting was something along the line of one-arm push-up for shoulders, and do waist rotation with weight bars on the shoulder for waist strength. I guess I was thinking more about the muscular action.

Diamond Talons, I don't intend to forgo the waist. But, I am short. I have to get close to fight a taller opponent. As I get closer, my waist become less effective because I might only be able to do a partial waist rotation depending on how close I am.

"trick is to make waist & shoulders one at time of issue force & I say issue not swallow as swallow should be from shoulder only & then put with waist to spit back & after a while it gets to be whole body."

I don't completely understand this. I understand about making the waist and shoulder to act as one. I am confuse about: "Then, put the waist to spit back." Are you saying the shoulder is merely a link in a chain in which waist rotation is the source of the power?


Ben Gash "San Jin"

I picked up the basic Sanchin kata from Goju from watching the video clips. I only see two technique in the kata that directly affects the shoulder. I'll see how this goes.

CP,
Thanks for the suggestion about spinal action. I'll probably need to find an white crane instructor to get a feel of the "trembling jing"

thanks for all the help

wm

[joedoe]

Ben Gash is correct :). I don't know if Karate's Sanchin is the same as White Crane's though.

In Ngor Chor we have several partner exercises for developing the shoulder power, but they are kinda hard to describe and I think my sifu may not want me to share them. Sorry.

[Diamond Talons]

WM I learned how to make parts of message be put into new post so here goes & sorry if it's screwed up some places but I try to learn this computer stuffs so I practice now okay.

All I was expecting was something along the line of one-arm push-up for shoulders, and do waist rotation with weight bars on the shoulder for waist strength. I guess I was thinking more about the muscular action.

WM none of these things are any good as they are not what you want to be able to do & you don't go swim a lots to get good at riding bike do you.

Diamond Talons, I don't intend to forgo the waist. But, I am short. I have to get close to fight a taller opponent. As I get closer, my waist become less effective because I might only be able to do a partial waist rotation depending on how close I am.

WM not at all true just a way you looking at it as there no reason why you can't pull waist all the way through & I do just this when my nose on my foe's nose as waist is very powerful & put with shoulder driving through root even a smaller person hits very very hard.

"trick is to make waist & shoulders one at time of issue force & I say issue not swallow as swallow should be from shoulder only & then put with waist to spit back & after a while it gets to be whole body."

I don't completely understand this. I understand about making the waist and shoulder to act as one. I am confuse about: "Then, put the waist to spit back." Are you saying the shoulder is merely a link in a chain in which waist rotation is the source of the power?

WM I say when swallowing force it swallowed through shoulder with waist left alone & then once force is swallowed put waist with shoulder & spit back power taken from strike of foe through shoulder & this like pulling back a bow string for the shoulder & bending the bow for the waist & do both then let the arrow fly which is strike & you understand this okay now or not.

[WanderingMonk]

Diamond Talons,

No, one shouldn't think practicing swimming will help him ride a bike. I understand your point.

OK, I understand what you are saying about using "shoulder to swallow" and "spit back" with waist now. I just have to practice it and see if I can put in action. Thanks.

Joedoe,

You are right about sanchin and san jin are not being the same. Japanese had made some modifications to it. Don't tell me anything that your teacher would not approve.

thanks

wm

[TaoBoy]

Shoulder push-ups!

Get into a push-up position.
Rise to the top of the position.
Lock your elbows.
Dip your chest to the floor by bringing your scapulas together.
Raise your chest by separating your scaps.
Repeat.



:)

[Crimson Phoenix]

DT: I understand what you mean...actually, in white crane, trembling jing is like a category that includes many other jings...it's just the generic name of the taste of the major jings in white crane, but it does not refer to one particular type of jing. I think that is what you meant also by "fold on the center is part of all jings in hand"...
And indeed, in fujian WC, some jings are not done with the spine waving vertically but with the hips tilting, or turning/shaking in coordination with the shoulder closing and opening. It depends...but as you said, there is something that is always required: using the shoulders to generate power (short or long).

WM: you don't have to necessarily find some white crane exponent, I believe styles like ngor chor/wu zu, bak mei/bai mei, lung ying, hakka tong long should give you what you are seeking as well. To my limited knowledge, all these styles use the triad hip/spine/shoulder to generate powerful short jings (if you need to be close to your opponent, you have to develop short jing...and it is also the trademark of any real quality gong fu exponent, IMHO).
Alos, WM, there is one thing I am beginning to understand: waist should not be confused with hips. When we post, we often use waist and hip indifferently because it's convenient. But actually, martial-wise it's two different things. Waist is the bones of your bassin, on each side. Hip, however, anatomically refer to the attachment of your femor inside the bassin, in the inner part of the waist. Chinese styles place a major importance on this part, which they call "kua" or "gua" or other writings depending on the language.
Waist bones are just the external part, the important part is to learn to twist and fold the hips (therefore the kuas) INTERNALLY...

I think, and he will correct me if I am wrong, that it is what Diamond Talon meant when he said that even nose to nose with your opponent, you can still turn your waist through. Actually you begin by folding the kua internally to generate the power, and the external waist bones barely move. Yet, you can use that with the shoulders to generate tremendous power, hitting your opponent quite hard. Then after you hit, you can just blaze and follow through by this time turning the waist to drive the strike through...

To take the example of white crane once again, the various stances (like crane ma bu or seven stars stance, the two most used stances in combat) have the knees clenched tightly in to protect the groin and enable good stability, with the feet locked in as well. With these stances, you have to develop (and it's not easy, I tell ya, I'm just beginning to understand the taste) the internal folding of the kua, because externally the waist bones have minimal mobility due to the stance.

I came to understand that internally folding the kua is paramount in every styles. Even in northern styles, where the heavy turning of the waist makes it less obvious, you can see the difference of power when someone just jerks the waist, or when he jerks the waist AND sink the kuas as well. The quality of the strike is much more penetrating and crisp in this case.

I would, IMHO, avoid shoulder push-ups, or at least would not make them a paramount part of a training aimed at developping shoulders-generated power. Indeed, they will develop power and strong shoulders, yet I believe it will be a dull, muscular power, unlike the crisp, vibrating power required for powerful short jings.

Make your hands like arrows or shooting stars, not like hammers!

[Diamond Talons]

CP you sure got a good school learning & I respect that as you make what I say clear more than I ever could & I show this to young guys who tell me how you say this thing & you say it the right way & good example of why education stuffs important. I get your point on jings & I agree with what you say after it explained to me & I don't have much school so as a stupid man I can't explain this thing like you do I have students put their hands on me & I do it slowly so they can feel how the body turns inside & not so much outside. No need for space between foe & me as where ever I am I can turn however much needed to put real power into small move & arrow a good example & hammer not the right way to do it as I understand it but some might be able to do it this way I don't know. WM you're right on shoulder thing as by swallowing through shoulder you keep waist free to match shoulder for strike but if you have shoulder with waist all the time then you have to stop a lot of power if bridge forms in order for you to change to cross bridge. If you just use shoulder at this point then changing no problems at all as it's just a small move & doesn't take all that much power to swallow his strike so no sense in putting it all together until right time & for my hand this right time is at touch. You try this with your Brothers & go slow until you feel good about leaving waist out until right time for your hand & you will find that you go through around over or under your Brother's bridge no problems so that their bridge becomes your path to strike & not something to fight with okay.

[WanderingMonk]

TaoBoy,

I never heard of shoulder push-up before. Interesting. I'll keep it in mind. thanks

Crimson Phoenix,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "internal folding of the kua"? Taiji talks about keeping the "kua" loose. Is that what you mean? Thanks

Diamond Talons,

I'll practice that. Thanks.

wm

[David Jamieson]

Do you work with weighted rings at all?

If so, you will develop shoulder strength and general upper body strength from using these with your set training.

cheers

[gwleachiv]

I've heard it mentioned that training with the iron rings can cause shoulder problems later in life. I always assumed that overtraining was what would cause the problems, but as of late I have heard a number of references to people who practice hakka arts (where the shoulders are dropped/rolled forwards) developing shoulder problems as they age.

For example, someone over on the SPM bulletin board recently suggested that Gin Foon Mark has had bad shoulder problems in the past few years, and hypothesized that training with the rings earlier in life was the culprit.

For those with years of experience in the Hakka arts; what is your opinion on the potential for shoulder problems due to practicing your art? Is it dependent on correct/incorrect training, or do you feel you might be sacrificing long-term shoulder health in order to develop the short ging power associated with the hakka arts? Second-hand as well as personal anecdotes welcome ...

-Grady

[cutter]

There are specific 2 man excercises called chy shu or tsai shu that are terrific for devloping shoulder power along with structure, root, etc. unfortunately they are practically impossible to explain due to the amount of feeling involved. i'm sorry, but seeking a competent instructor is the only way to learn this.

DT, i appreciate your humility, but i dont think you should call yourself "stupid". you are not. do you agree about chy shu? do you call it by the same name?:)

[Diamond Talons]

Cutter I'm stupid with school stuffs no doubts & I read some guys on this forum & am amazed at how clear they can make things with really good words so I struggle but that's okay as now I'm using all my fingers now to type & no more chicken peck stuffs for me. I think maybe this thing you talking about called doi chongs in my hand but not sure so we try with words a bit & bridge forms by 2 peoples & weapon goes out on a path with other guy sticking & putting pressure on extending weapon & then return along same kind of path with other guy sticking & putting pressure is this kind of like it okay.

[cutter]

yes, thats what i'm talking about. i have heard it called doi chong before. in your system is it taught early, at the same time as footwork?


as far as"school stuffs" goes, you are writing in english, but do you also read & write chinese?
knowing 2 languages is not stupid.:D

[Diamond Talons]

Cutter yes to doi chongs coming in as footwork & gives a guy something more real to work with than air since air never attack any guys & no more doi chongs past starting point as my hand says go close to real as possible by level of student so a few months maybe 6 & that's it as chi kung work builds from that power. How hard can Chinese be Cutter as 3 year old Children speak it well now English hard as hell & dammed sure no rules that make sense to me. 1 more thing on doi chongs have you ever done them while doing stepping work on plum blossom poles as it gives some interesting problems for your body to solve no doubts & makes the regular ground feel like 1000 mile open flat space. Cutter a young guy just look over my shoulder & read what I write on this thing & say why stop there just go ahead & say all of it so okay. If you do plum blossom doi chongs then you & your Brother get a piece of bamboo long so that as you stand facing each other on plum blossom poles it touch your stomach & his & then you tie it there to each of you with rope. Trick is to keep pole from being active player either pushing or pulling you so each of you must match the other exact & it dammed sure hard on guy following lead but trick is to see your Brother so you know his step as he decides it & then you got something good to use.

[Lao_Peng_You]

"English hard as hell & dammed sure no rules that make sense to me."

That's funny, DT. When I learned Chinese (still learning), I thought how difficult would it be for a Chinese person to learn English? I mean, Chinese word placement in a sentence is so formulaic, always subject+verb+object. add one little "le" and you make a verb past tense. The subtlety is always in the word itself and the tone. English can change the tense of a verb and even have the word change itself as it changes tense as in "go" and "went". I will say this though, characters are tough for the English speaker's eye.

[Diamond Talons]

Funny stuffs LPY & okay I'm sure it's hard both ways & try not to say think character think story & maybe that helps I don't know I just do the best I can & then say to hell with it okay.

[Crimson Phoenix]

DT, don't worry, and you are not stupid at all...college education never made a lame guy better, just appearing better...the same way, there are people who, without any academic education, can give you lessons on wisdom all the time :-)
Actually, one thing that I have came to observe is that at first the images you use in your posts make it a little trickier to understand. But then, after a little time, you go "ahhahhh!" and it al makes much more sense than pages of scholar words and descriptions...

Wandering Monk...it's actually a tricky question you ask, for many reasons...first reason is that english is not my native language, and even if I am quite comfortable with it, I do lack some of the precise anatomic terms. No big deal, as I can always check a dictionnary...
But the second and third reasons (they are tightly linked) is that it is plain hard to explain it in words. Only the feeling of it really makes you understand...I would hear about the actions of the kua all the time, even sometimes with great theory...but I never really understood what it meant until I actually managed to feel it...now, I'm just starting to understand, and I have to apply it, which is even deeper...
I will try to describe it the best I can in another post, however I know it is doomed to remain incomplete and dull...

[Diamond Talons]

CP thanks & I give it my best shot okay & your saying about the kua to WM just the reason I have my students put their hands on me when I do it as they then feel & put what they see with what they feel & works better than books of words on it I think & this is just opinion & not fact okay. I find lots of stuffs this way & now students learn in days what took me months & to hell with poems stuffs for me from now on as it's old way & not needed anymore & just confuse more than help most peoples from what I see on this thing as poems mean personal understanding which different for every person.

[WanderingMonk]

Kung Lek,

Don't have weighted rings, too expensive to buy. I might borrow it from a relative next time I visit. Maybe I make my own when I find hte time.


gwleachiv

about shoulder injury, I suggest you look it anatomically. If the injury was casued by over-training. It is probably the result of over-developing one muscle group over another. So, one part of the shoulder structure would endure more stress continously due to the imbalance. Also, when a shoulder technique is executed, more stress is placed on the shoulder structure supported by less developed muscle group. After repeated usage without correction, a chronic injury start to develop. The injury could also been caused by "recoil", which the body absorbed the undissipated energy. That would be a problem if you execute the technique against air without something to absorb it. You should be able to avoid serious injury thru balance development of shoulder muscles (including the stabilization muscles) and avoid execute shoulder technique full force unless you have a punching bag infront of you.

This is based on first principle. Someone with first hand knowledge will help you more.

Cutter,

Thanks. I'll check if I can find someone who does this type of drills.

Diamond Tanlons,

For what's worth, I think a man's heart is more important than his formal education. Some times when people get too "book smart", they lose their humanity.

Crimson Phoenix,

Any more elaboration you can give is most appreciated. Don't feel that you have to be able to explain it. I had already gained more than I expected. Even if you explain it perfectly, I still might not understand. Certain principle is too abstract to the inexperienced. Sometime, the concept is
so "revolutionary" to the listener, he'll reject it off hand as impossible.

thanks guys.

wm