Rare styles of kung fu??????????

[jmd161]

I was wondering how many of you here at KFO study rare styles of kung fu?

By rare i don't really mean unheard of ,but more like systems outside of the mainstream ones like Choy Lay Fut ,Hung Gar,Northen Shaolin,Praying Mantis.

I study a rare style of Black Tiger and have studied Cheung Kune Pai both are not as easily accessable like the above mentioned styles.

Just wanted to hear about some styles outside of the norm.

jeff:)

[Sho]

Guess I'm a mainstreamer then.. :D

[carly]

what chueng kune pai is like

[Sho]

Sounds like Long Fist.

[Laughing Cow]

Kinda a Mainstreamer now.

Learning a not so widely practiced sub-style of a main-style.

Last style was not widely spread at all.

[Water Dragon]

I study a rare Gong Fu style. My stuff works.

[Felipe Bido]

Water Dragon has launched a missile of the correct

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, I've learned an Elephant Fist form, and have been roundly mocked on occassion for even believing such a thing exists.

Never tried seriously fighting with it, though (heck, I've never tried seriously fighting at all - someday, maybe) so I can't say for sure if it works.

[Royal Dragon]

It's Southern Long Fist. His perticular branch is a Tai Tzu system that was taught to the Imperial guard, which is why it's rare.

[jmd161]

Royal Dragon ,

You sure know your Tai Tzu's dont you?

How long have you been involved in Tai Tzu?


carly,

Royal Dragon is correct it's Sung Style LongFist named after the Emperor Sung Tai Jow aka Tai Tzu aka Chao Kuang-Yin.During the Sung Dynasty it was only taught to the Royal Family and the Imperial Guard.


Well, I've learned an Elephant Fist form, and have been roundly mocked on occassion for even believing such a thing exists

Chang Style Novice ,

Elephant style does exist!
It's part of several styles including the system of Black Tiger that i study.It's part of the Hung Fut system as well.


Water Dragon and Laughing Cow,

What are the systems you guys study? And does anyone here study Bak Mei?I consider that rare because you can't find many teachers teaching Bak Mei.

jeff :)

[Royal Dragon]

You sure know your Tai Tzu's dont you?

Reply]
LOL, I have more questions than answeres. Example, I have 4 Southern forms documented, I only know the names of two of them for sure, the other two I am getting mixed signals on.

I am pretty sure they are Whipping Slice, and Cutting slice, but the one I'm calling cutting slice could be Yi Lu, and the one I'm calling Whipping slice could be Cutting Slice. I need the opinion of one more master before I am confidant on them. Then, I have several Southernized (Sort of) Northern forms, I know only as Tai Tzu Quan 1,2 & 3, but I have no actual names for the sets. They could be individual forms, or one form taught in 3 sections. The first section of the first form opens very similar to the Northern form actually called "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan", but it changes about 1/3 of the way through into something totally different. I am wondering if it is a highly evolved version of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form, or if is another set from the system, could be either or.

Your system seems to fit in between the pure Southern Tai Tzu, and what I have of the Northern. I suspect it was originally a Northern branch, that was practiced in the South so long it took on Southern attributes (I have seen this from video I have of a Malaysian branch too).

I have been researching Tai Tzu form a number of sources since 1998. To date, I have more questions than answers. From comparing multiple lines, I am seeing certian techniques surfacing over and over again, such as the "Hands waving like clouds" commonly seen in Taiji. You guys have it in your "Golden Dragon" set, only your are useing a fist position instead of an open hand, and it is being done in a stationary bow stance (Less mobile, more typical of the Southern), intead of wile moving backwards (More mobile, typical of the Northern).

I need to fly to China, and train under a Master I know there that has studied two of the main Tai Tzu Branches in depth, but there is no funding for the project as of yet. Then there is an Australian trip, back to Baltimore, and I need to see Sifu Able for training in your branch etc...

Funding it is going to be the hard part, but a series of two week training vacations is something I would LOVE to do! I'm trying to get the forms on video, that way I can just fly in for corrections and more in depth training. I think it will save time that way.

[Souljah]

I study a rare style....but at the same time its unheard of outside the village which it originated from so I guess I cant comment any further......

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You sure know your Tai Tzu's dont you?

Reply]
Your system seems to fit in between the pure Southern Tai Tzu, and what I have of the Northern. I suspect it was originally a Northern branch, that was practiced in the South so long it took on Southern attributes.

You are correct there.

It started in the North during the Sung Dynasty (960-1279) But you had the Southern Sung Dynasty from (1103-1279).


jeff:)

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Baltimore, and I need to see Sifu Able for training in your branch etc...


Thats ABEL. Sheesh, not even my friends get it right.

:rolleyes: :p :D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You sure know your Tai Tzu's dont you?

Reply]
LOL, I have more questions than answeres. Example, I have 4 Southern forms documented, I only know the names of two of them for sure, the other two I am getting mixed signals on.

I am pretty sure they are Whipping Slice, and Cutting slice, but the one I'm calling cutting slice could be Yi Lu, and the one I'm calling Whipping slice could be Cutting Slice. I need the opinion of one more master before I am confidant on them. Then, I have several Southernized (Sort of) Northern forms, I know only as Tai Tzu Quan 1,2 & 3, but I have no actual names for the sets. They could be individual forms, or one form taught in 3 sections. The first section of the first form opens very similar to the Northern form actually called "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan", but it changes about 1/3 of the way through into something totally different. I am wondering if it is a highly evolved version of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form, or if is another set from the system, could be either or.

Your system seems to fit in between the pure Southern Tai Tzu, and what I have of the Northern. I suspect it was originally a Northern branch, that was practiced in the South so long it took on Southern attributes (I have seen this from video I have of a Malaysian branch too).

I have been researching Tai Tzu form a number of sources since 1998. To date, I have more questions than answers. From comparing multiple lines, I am seeing certian techniques surfacing over and over again, such as the "Hands waving like clouds" commonly seen in Taiji. You guys have it in your "Golden Dragon" set, only your are useing a fist position instead of an open hand, and it is being done in a stationary bow stance (Less mobile, more typical of the Southern), intead of wile moving backwards (More mobile, typical of the Northern).

I need to fly to China, and train under a Master I know there that has studied two of the main Tai Tzu Branches in depth, but there is no funding for the project as of yet. Then there is an Australian trip, back to Baltimore, and I need to see Sifu Able for training in your branch etc...

Funding it is going to be the hard part, but a series of two week training vacations is something I would LOVE to do! I'm trying to get the forms on video, that way I can just fly in for corrections and more in depth training. I think it will save time that way.

RD, give me a heads up before you head down under. I'd love to hook up with you and compare forms - see if our Tai Tzu forms are anything like yours.

[Royal Dragon]

Sifu Abel, Sorry, I have fat fingers.

joedoe,
It's not going to be for a few years. Like I said, I need to fund it first.

Jaimie Scuffell has some video of my stuff. For some of the rest, you have to talk to Sifu Abel. I'm under orders not to share his system. If you want to see it, you have to go through him.

Basically, I am collecting as much Tai Tzu form pretty much anywhere I can get it. That being the case, my line will not look like anyone elses' as it will be a combanation of various lines.

I am also bound to not share what I have by several others I am communicating with. It seems the Tai Tzu community is rather close doored about their systems, and I intend to respect that.

I really don't know much anyway.
I have memorised 4 of the Southern Tai Tzu sets, but I only really train San Zhen, sometimes 4 doors.

I have memorised 3 of Sifu Abel's sets (He sent me 4), but I only train Jap Xaio Ma Kune, adn I keep forgetting the 2nd one for some reason.

And I have 13 Northern forms. 2 are Gun Fist, two are Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, 3 are called Tai Tzu Chang chaun (One is the rare 72 move internal set), 3 might be one form taught in 3 sections, and a few others, but I only work Yi Lu.

You can ask Jamie to show you the Yi Lu I sent him. I'm horrible, but it's worth the look. The rest of the tape is the Taiji Quan system from the Chao family.

I have 3 Monkey sets, two Southern, and part of one Northern that was modifed for competition. I don not practice any of those.

As allways, I am looking for more footage with as much info on the contents as possible.

[jmd161]

Royal Dragon,

Could it be Nam Mo Sot Kune ?

Or Kam Long Kune ,Nam Tung Lung,or Wong Hap Tung Lung ?

jeff:)

[Royal Dragon]

Nam Mo Sot Kune ? Or Kam Long Kune

Reply]
Yup, thats them


Nam Mo Sot Kune = Southern Horse form

Kam Long Kune = Golden Dragon


He sent me a Mantis set too, but I have't played with it too much yet, my plate is really too full right now.

[jmd161]

Nam Mo Sot Kune= Southern Fist Form

Kam Long Kune = Golden Dragon

Those are the first three forms of Cheung Kune Pai.

You learn
Jap Hsiao Ma Kune at white sash.

Then learn
Nam Mo Sot Kune at green sash

and then
Kam Long Kune at Black Sash.

You do know that Cheung Kune Pai is an advanced system don't you?

That's why you don't learn much before you have a solid background in kung fu.We learn Bak Sil Lum to help get a Foundation in kung fu for Cheung Kune Pai.Ok i'm giving out too much now let me keep my mouth closed.:D

jeff:)

[joedoe]

Is 5 Ancestors Fist (Wu Chu Chuan, Ngor Chor Kun) considered rare?

[carly]

"You do know that Cheung Kune Pai is an advanced system don't you?
That's why you don't learn much before you have a solid background in kung fu.We learn Bak Sil Lum to help get a Foundation in kung fu for Cheung Kune Pai.Ok i'm giving out too much now let me keep my mouth closed."

I have never understood this idea that one style or another is too advanced for most students or beginners.
It suggests that the teacher underestimates the ability or intelligence of his students. They can learn whatever they are challenged by or presented with.

[Royal Dragon]

carly,
Actually, that s not true. Northern Tai tzu really does not have a "Basic" level. That is why the Chao family develped the Southern division (during the Southern Sung dynasty). it is simple, and basic with a major emphisis on findementals. Even before its development, the Imperial family sent thier children to Shaolin prior to teaching them the Tai Tzu style.

Generally, the Southern Tai Tzu is taught first, to lay the foundation, and then the Northern is taught. (Cheung kune being a Northern drivitive would fall in this catgory). Since jmd161's line does not have the little Southern system, they are useing bei Shaolin as the base system. I sent all I had on the little Southern system to Sifu Abel, so he has it if he wants to do anything with it.

Ngo Chor descended directly form Southern Tai tzu, adn is considered an expasion on the style to some degree. I believ it is still rather rare, but gaining popularity in reacent years.

A good example, is we have one San Zhen. I'm told they teach ours, plus a bunch more.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by carly
I have never understood this idea that one style or another is too advanced for most students or beginners.
It suggests that the teacher underestimates the ability or intelligence of his students. They can learn whatever they are challenged by or presented with.

Carly,

For what ever reason one way or another some styles are too advanced for a beginner to understand.It could be footwork or stances or what ever.Black Tigers first form uses alot of deep Ma Bo stances for a longer period than most styles advanced forms.If you have no prior knowledge or understanding of a proper rooted Ma Bo you could do damage to your knees in this form.Serious damage at that! Not everything is acceptable because you have above avarage ability.The Black Tiger Grinder Dummy requires some serious conditioning because it's made from concrete and iron.How many beginners can step in without hurting themself seriously on this dummy?

How long have you studied Martial Arts?

Maybe when you reach an advanced level in your training you will see why somethings are considered to be advanced ?

Not being funny just keeping it real.

jeff:)

[carly]

I've only studied martial arts for about 25 years, and I'm still learning:) I do have developed a few opinions after all this time, though.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by carly
I've only studied martial arts for about 25 years, and I'm still learning:) I do have developed a few opinions after all this time, though.

So in that case you should understand what i and RD was saying?

Yes?

jeff:)

[carly]

Any normal, average student can learn begin and learn any style of kung fu with a good teacher. Why waste their time making them learn things that don't challenge them? A lot of students aren't stimulated and challenged enough by what they are taught. That's just my opinion, based on what I've seen.

[HuangKaiVun]

Ngo cho kuen is NOT rare.

The Beng Kiam Athletic Association is huge in the Philippines, and its proponents are spread worldwide.


I teach the "Seng Men" family style, having been granted permission by my sifu.

My students enjoy this system because it hits hard, though they know that it is hardly the answer to everything.

With the exception of the Seng Men system, the sets I teach at my school (if they could be called "sets") are all my own.

I created them as martial simplifications of that which I learned earlier in life.

[jmd161]

Well you are entitled to your opinion.

What happens when the student criples themself trying something you felt they did'nt need to have prior knowledge in to attempt?

Do you just say sorry my bad?

You have to remember most are going to try and push themselves when they are not around you also.If they are doing the technique wrong and you are not there it could cause serious damage.That's why they are called Advanced Techniques because in most cases beginers should not be trying these techniques.Like a person new to martial arts learning about Snake Fist techniques and meridians(sp) bad combination.

Jeff:)

[carly]

Certainly, we can hold different opinions on the subject.
I won't hijack your thread here any further - back to talking about rare styles!

[Royal Dragon]

Crawl, walk then run.

If all you've done is Tae Kwon Do, you would have no idea what I mean by that.

As you progress, you are introduced to more and more challenging skills. It's like school, you can't just go to college, you need to prepare for that in High school, and you prepare for THAT in elementary school.

Martial arts is the same way. Take tai Tzu, the foundation is in the 6 Southern sets

San Zhen
Si Men
Cutting Slice
Whipping Slice,
Yi Lu
San Pan

Once you get through that, you are ready for the Northern system of the Royal family or the Imperial guard system they taught to thier Body Guards.

They lower level stuff is more striking oriented, and the higher level stuff mixes that striking with joint locks and throws as well as more difficult to master kicking. All this stuff is BUILT on the lower level material. Without it, it's like trying to build a house starting with the roof and skipping over the foundation, first floor, second floor, and attic.

[Royal Dragon]

HuangKaiVun,
Hi, I'm no expert on Ngo Chor (Wu Zu Chuan), other than it is built from Southern Tai tzu, and I have heard that there is Northen Tai tzu in there as well as some Crane style. I have a Ngo Chor book, and it contains the first section of our San Zhen and the second form is the same as our "Whipping Slice" only there is a bunch of techniques added to the ends making it about 3 times as long (I'm assuming the Ngo Chor founders added to the Tai Tzu set)

Oh, that and Sam Chien comes from them, which comes from our San Zhen

The above pretty much sums up my knowledge of Ngo Chor.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Crawl, walk then run.

If all you've done is Tae Kwon Do, you would have no idea what I mean by that.

As you progress, you are introduced to more and more challenging skills. It's like school, you can't just go to college, you need to prepare for that in High school, and you prepare for THAT in elementary school.

Martial arts is the same way. Take tai Tzu, the foundation is in the 6 Southern sets

San Zhen
Si Men
Cutting Slice
Whipping Slice,
Yi Lu
San Pan

Once you get through that, you are ready for the Northern system of the Royal family or the Imperial guard system they taught to thier Body Guards.

They lower level stuff is more striking oriented, and the higher level stuff mixes that striking with joint locks and throws as well as more difficult to master kicking. All this stuff is BUILT on the lower level material. Without it, it's like trying to build a house starting with the roof and skipping over the foundation, first floor, second floor, and attic.

Great way of breaking it down.

I'm not good at explaining things i'll admit that for sure.

jeff:)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
HuangKaiVun,
Hi, I'm no expert on Ngo Chor (Wu Zu Chuan), other than it is built from Southern Tai tzu, and I have heard that there is Northen Tai tzu in there as well as some Crane style. I have a Ngo Chor book, and it contains the first section of our San Zhen and the second form is the same as our "Whipping Slice" only there is a bunch of techniques added to the ends making it about 3 times as long (I'm assuming the Ngo Chor founders added to the Tai Tzu set)

Oh, that and Sam Chien comes from them, which comes from our San Zhen

The above pretty much sums up my knowledge of Ngo Chor.

Ngor Chor is based on 5 arts, one of which is Tai Tzu (the other 4 being Monkey, Crane, Da Mo, and Lohan). That is probably why the sets differ or are longer.

The Ngor Chor Sam Chien (Sam Chien [Hokkien]= San Zhen[Mandarin]) is different to the Tai Tzu version, but we also have a Tai Tzu version (which again may be different from the Tai Tzu version :)).

Anyway, Ngor Chor does appear to be gaining popularity. When I started learning it there was little known about it and very few schools about. Even now, our school is the only Ngor Chor school I know of in Australia (mind you, that doesn't mean there aren't any others out there).

In comparison to arts like Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Tong Long or Choy Lay Fut, Ngor Chor is a pretty rare art.

[Royal Dragon]

You do Ngo Chor?? I thought you were a student of Jamie's?

[joedoe]

Me? Nope - I don't know who Jamie is :). I have trained Ngor Chor for the last (almost) 16 years.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!!, I saw the Australia thing, and I though you were one of his students!!! My Bad. :eek: :D

[joedoe]

LOL.

BTW who is Jamie and where is he based? It might be cool if we could link up and compare notes sometime.

[Royal Dragon]

He's in Townsen. I know he's a Hand to Hand instructor for the military. I'll ask him if I can hook you up wiht him.

[joedoe]

Excellent. That would be great.

[Lowlynobody]

I study Yau Kung Mun.

[Yung Apprentice]

Lama Pai/Jkd, would you consider it rare? Lama Pai? I know JKD wouldn't be.

[FatherDog]

Since he hasn't replied yet... KC Elbows studies Six Elbows Kung Fu, which is pretty **** rare last time I checked.

Catch wrestling is pretty rare, come to that, but I don't think that's what you meant :D

[Losttrak]

There is a kung fu style that specializes in projectile vomitting. You think I am joking but its true....

[KC Elbows]

Thank you, FatherDog. It also goes by the name tai hui, or mi chuan. At the moment, it appears I'll be the tenth person to learn the entire system in the US. Go me.:D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Thank you, FatherDog. It also goes by the name tai hui, or mi chuan. At the moment, it appears I'll be the tenth person to learn the entire system in the US. Go me.:D

Go you, indeed. What do those translate to in English?

[MAC]

I'm practicing / trying to learn Bai Mei. I thought it was pretty rare but there seems to be quite a few folks here that pratice this.

[KC Elbows]

Now, I'm going by other people's translations, but tai hui means something like the universal or something like that, and mi chuan is secret fist.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by MAC
I'm practicing / trying to learn Bai Mei. I thought it was pretty rare but there seems to be quite a few folks here that pratice this.

Mac,

I think most are students of Sifu Garry in Oz?

I'm not sure but that seems to be the only place where Bak Mei is being taught openly too so many.I've seen very few schools here in the US.

jeff:)

[MAC]

Yes. I am only aware of 6 in the US, though there may be more.