Are all MA magazine article application pics doomed to look bad?

[Oso]

I just picked up the latest issues of IKF and KFQG.

IKF had an article on Brendan Lai (rest in peace). In it they showed BL doing two applications of forms in a self defense
or fighting situation.

KFQG had an article by/with Cung Le about san shou and self
defense with pics of specific applications.

Neither sets of apps looked that good.

Now, before anyone starts in with style vs. style, that's NOT
what this is about. Both BL and CL are well respected in their
circles and without so there is no need to go there.

Let's talk about how to improve the medium so to speak.
Everyone here has ripped articles and websites that showed
application. So we obviously know what doesn't look effective
or good.

SO, HOW can you create a set of still images or a vid clip that
is realistic and looks good. Without your training partner going
to the hospital.

The looking 'good' is important because, let's face it, the only real
purpose of these is to promote whatever the person is studying.
If it doesn't look good then people won't be drawn to that style.

[rogue]

Hard to do. If it looks realistic it tends to hide some of the technique, if you show it so it can be viewed it's always staged.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'd say rogue has a big part of the problem addressed right there.

But sometimes things are so bad that you have to wonder how the sequence passed muster in the editing process. I'm talking about the sequences that show one hand throwing a punch, and in the next panel, the punch is blocked - but it's a different hand than the one thrown in the first panel.

Being careful of this kind of glaring (and confusing) continuity error should be the first step.

[Oso]

rogue, right on both points imo.

but if, as a collective, we can't figure out how to make them look
better then we should shut the board down now.:)

One of the bigger things I see as a problem is that the techniques
are all 'one hitters'. The ubiquitous 'right lunge punch'. Granted
in a street SD sit you will tend to see a high % of wild rights
and lefts. But probably not just one at a time.

Both articles I'm referencing had follow up strikes so not the case
with them but they still had that totally staged look.

I realize of course that the is limited space in a magazine article
but one answer might be fewer articles but more in depth
articles.

or maybe application only articles. maybe a feature article every
month about application only.

[Oso]

csn, true but that's an editing problem and no ma sifu will have
control over the final article layout.

[Chang Style Novice]

Honestly, it never occurred to me that this was an issue that's the responsibility of the subject of the article. As far as I'm concerned, the onus rests squarely on the journalistic end.

[Oso]

csn...

hmmm, well, I could see that that subject of an article approve
a set of images in a particular order and the publisher screw
around with it to get some advertising in.


but, imo, there is something lacking in the images themselves.

no slam on anyone who has ever done any mag articles.

They all look the same for the most part.

which is my point.

let's figure out how to make 'em better.

this may not take off till monday, maybe.

and, dang, Serpent's on sabbatical.

[Chang Style Novice]

yeah, the images are often bad. But the photographer is responsible for getting good photos. The martial artists are only responsible for showing good martial arts.

Ideally, you'd have an experienced martial artist for a photojournalist, layout designer, and editor (as well as the subject of the story.) They'd have to be professional quality photographers, designers, and editors in addition to marital artists in order to get optimum results. I fear that the real problem is there's just not enough money in MA journalism to consistently get people as highly qualified as is probably neccesary to turn out the quality of work we want to see. It's an exceedingly demanding problem, after all.

[Robbie]

Do the same thing you would do for a video. Set up multiple camera angles and go at it with your sparing partner. Agree on a few techniques that you're going to try to get in multiple times. After your done, go to the film and look for a camera shot that shows the technique you wanted and cut out the rest. It won't look as clean as most demos do but it will at least have a realistic set up since you got there naturally. It will also have the advantage of showing all the necessary movement since you are doing it in real time instead of step by step.

[Oso]

robbie

good approach but the final edit will be up to the publisher.

most articles are done, I think, months in advance.

csn does have good point that a lot of it lies with the pub/editor.

so, Gene, why did you let CL's hottie assistant look so do rky?:)

(I got an edit for d o r k?)

[TaoBoxer]

Anyone who's gonna complan about the photos in the MA mags should first A) try to write an article B) get it accepted and then C) spend 8-10 hours one day trying to get 20 good photo's.

My first experience with this was in 1995 in Tactical Knives. Doing an article on in-fighting knife work required that the author get pics of some close-quarters knife work. It took us literally 4 hours to get 10 usable pics. I had a few articles run last year in KFQG (Thanks Martha!! Thanks Gene!!) and the work for the photo's was grueling. It was an all day event in san antonio.

As with most things in life, it is A LOT harder than it looks, and if you are a stickler for quality, you can double however long you think it is going to take.

Just don't judge us too harshly, please!!

Bill

PS: As far as lag time between writing it and having it hit the news-stand. I wrote an article in late 1999 for the Year of the Dragon, and I think it was published in late '01. It does depend on the needs of the editors and the availability of good materiel.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Very true dao boxer. Having written a number of articles myself...the photos take hours of work not to mention the pre-set up. As well, one has to consider lighting, angles, close up shot vs whole body etc.
I have never seen total action shots look good...in reality they turn out terrible...so any shot has to be posed for it to be printable quality. However, there is no excuse for changing hands etc as mentioned above. But, sometimes photos can be out of sync and that is the fault of the media dept or the author not marking the photos clearly. As well, sometimes the dialog that goes with a photo is changed by the editor so that it does not reflect correctly what is happening in the photo(s).
Of recent though, I have found both KQ and IKF being very particular as to the type and quality of photos for an article submission...Gene Ching has been very good in this dept.

GHD

[dezhen2001]

Oso agreed man :)

from my own experiences of working on a CMA magazine it can be a very difficult task.

BUT i would say that the photographs to explain the article rest on the writer. Only THEY can explain what they mean by taking good pics... its not up to the magazine. Only in the case of the final layout and how much space can be allocated etc. The magazine can only work with what they are given - thats the nature of editorial design (in regards to non 'inhouse' articles).

Regarding taking the pics themselves: taking movements from a form sequence is easy, applications are much, much harder... especially what we do for example - wing chun which is some very subtle things.

imo it takes someone who understands martial arts in general and knows how to best make use of the composition of pictures to create somehting that conveys good information. Also if u want 'aliveness' then it means using a high speed film, which means a great waste of pictures that arent used. Either that or taking stills from a video clip. it can be pretty expensive and time consuming as said above :)

The responsibility of the magazine is what they do with the CONTENT the writer supplies. Its up to them to make it visually appealing and readable, so that its clear. That in itself can be very difficult, especially with something complex.

if we take form movements or applications for example... one way to reduce the space needed is to crop and edit out the background... in a sequence of 20 pics that can take a few hours! (roughly 5-10 mins each one)... then you have to worry about how to place them in sequence on the page, fit the text around them, the size... theres a lot that goes in to it and that in itself is time consuming.

Deadlines are NOT very forgiving :D

Also you have the fact that sometimes articles are sent in late, they dont send the pics, or the WRONG pics, forget to say which order to place them... so many things that can result in things going all wrong. again the magazine can only work with what they are given... otherwise its just empty pages :D

just some thoughts and experiences :)
dawood

[Oso]

taoboxer and gold horse dragon

I wasn't expecially criticizing or saying it was easy. I am certainly
not judging harshly. Just observations.

I hope I didn't come off that way, I was attempting to open
dialogue about how to do them better and not bashing anyone's
attempts.

I was hoping some people with actual expereince would reply.

So, were you 100% pleased with the results of your efforts?

If not, then how do you think they could have been better?


Matt

[carly]

The time and effort and film stock involved in trying to create good art to accompany an article on kung fu is considerable. Digital cameras, which let you take lots of shots, examine them immediately, repeat until you get something worthwhile and keep only the best have improved things, but it's still a difficult process.

[TaoBoy]

Boy, did we have some trouble shooting for the two magazine articles I wrote for Blitz. No matter how you set things up it's always gonna look static and unrealistic. You just have to do your best and hope the audience understand that the medium has its limitations.

[HuangKaiVun]

Good topic, Oso.

I felt the same way you did about a lot of things I did and saw in kung fu (haven't seen either of the two examples you mentioned), so I went out and CHANGED my kung fu to fit my needs.

If nothing else, these pictures will get you thinking about the possibilities. And that's exactly what we kung fu guys are supposed to be doing with what we're learning.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Oso...I thought I was clear...my prior comment was not a critisim of your post, but rather just the facts.
I have written more than one article with photos. I was writting articles long before digital cameras and cam recorders.
For my most recent articles I have used regular photos and digital. I have to say digital is a good medium to use, as you can see the results immediately and make changes as required. As well, you can set the dpi for printing quality and e mail them to the publisher...a great boon. However, digital cameras are expensive.

GHD

[Oso]

GHD

just making sure I wasn't pis sing anyone off.
so, I restated my position.

So, how 'bout this question.

IF print media is so unsuitable for showing application why bother
to show application?

Wouldn't more time/space be better spent discussing history
or theory or form?

Who is the target audience for the application pics? Surely not
other sifu's or experienced ma's.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Personally, I like to see picks in magazines...I think most of them are decent enough and you have to take it in context...that is...they are only a representation of a particular technique. A magazine with pics is I find much more interesting than one without and it also allows you to have a little more personal connection with the writer, Kwoon, students etc.
And you know the ol saying "a picture is worth a thousand words".

GHD

[Oso]

So do I. Wouldn't be the same without them.

This were just some thoughts I had as I browsed my 2 new mags.

Really, the first thing I thought was that in my 20 odd years of
buying ma mags I can't say I've seen much of an evolution in how
things are presented.

So, I guess this form of presentation is at it's peak ???

[Oso]

I finally bit the bullet and subscribe to our sponsering magazine.

just for the t-shirt of course ;) :)

[dezhen2001]

I can't say I've seen much of an evolution in how
things are presented.

i would say especially for forms and applications youre reallyonly left with 2 choices... photos and drawings possibly from them.

so in some respects youre right imo. BUT especially with the web now, there is much more variety available, video clips, animations... some really cool stuff. But then again it still has to be read as well, so editorial is editorial wether on the web or in a magazine.

just my thoughts :)
dawood

[@PLUGO]

Sorry I'm late guys... But while Gene's in Las Vegas...ahem "on Assignment".... ;)

Maybe I can help shed a little light on the process... at least here at KFQ.

Most of our articles are accepted from freelancers. This means they submit photos (maybe with captions) along with the article.
When we're lucky the writer has made an effort clearly mark the pictures, include captions and make them somewhat relavent to the actual article.
We're not always lucky... :rolleyes:

[dezhen2001]

exactly DS... the same in my limited experiece too... im just glad our magazine is smaller and not so well known :p

dawood

[@PLUGO]

The Miracle of the Digitial Camera has made good quality KF app photos much more available. For reasons already stated. In office we are primarily digitial.

Not always though, for cover quality photos, Digitial still isn't quite there. They will often require quite a bit of Desktop level retouching. Compare for instance the covers of Sept/Oct & Nov/Dec 2002 issue with March/April 2003 issue. the 1st 2 where digitial the March/April was Film... Guess what was the Jan/Feb?

So... when we're doing a cover shoot we'll usually "warm-up" with a series of 35mm Application Shots. With a professional Photographer/lighting and a Cover worthy Master one would think the application shoots would rock out. There's is still usually quite a bit of work involved...
(insidentally, we'll use the application shots to get ideas for the potential COVER shot)...
After the article is written and the photos developed we will usually send the master copies of the application photos so they might add captions... This usually can be time and labor intensive with lots of Faxs, e-mail and phone calls back and forth. Again this is an exception as it is usually for the coverstory. IMO the Leung Ting issue is a fine example of it all going RIGHT. The captions became a sort of article onto themselves... check out that issue (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200114.html) and let me know what you think...

Keep in mind the best intentions of a designer can be underminded by an overworked printpressman...

So where as I... Digitial Photos aren't always well recieved by the design crew. Many a freelancer's camera ins't as highend as one would hope. Also when e-mailed the "compression" involved tends to degrade the quality of a given photo...
The average phot viewed on a screen(online) needs 72 Dots Per Inch... for printing a photos needs to have a digitial resolution of 300 Dots per inch.
That difference can result in either very Small photos, or very pixilated or both. Cleaning them up can also be very time consuming and of course DEADLINES are NOT forgiving!!!

At least with classic Film based photos they can be scanned at 300 dpi or more. Though some "freelancers" could benefit from a few basic guidelines...

Nothing beats sunlight...

the best background is a blank background...(as in a blank wall)

the worst I've seen are trophy rooms...

[@PLUGO]

in a word... they suck...

Sorry to say it, but even a digitial Camcorder has a way to go before one can seriously "grab" print quality still images...

Aside from the 72 verses 300 DPI issue I mentioned already. Consider "shutter spead"

a good photographer can make the right adjustments to capture a moving image. This is impossible with a digitial camera as the camera usually has to think for a moment before taking the pic.

With a camcorder the shutter is clicking of images at an average of about 30 frames a second. A still image has to be found amongst one of those frames... Sounds simple.

Much more doable if one is filming a set of some sort... preferable Taiji ;)

However if you're hoping to capture a key point of contact or a Chin Na exchange, or even a simeltanious block Attack. What you'
re going to see when you examine the individual frames is a series of blurs.

we we see those blurs at 30 frames/second we make up the difference in our heads and interpret the moving image.

when one of those frames are issolated and presented, your lucky if what you see makes any kind of sence. Then comes the fact that the image will be about an inch tall and an inch .5 wide after the 72->300 dpi conversion.

Thanks to software like Photoshop one can scale the image up, adding dots as needed... but there's only so much that can achieve before the image becomes a mess...

Examine the articles appearing in the March/April 2003 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200115.html) issue of KFQ.
Iron Body Cops, Iron Fist Soldiers and The Physics of Breaking. Both use images grabbed from video footage. Now compare them with the CUNG Le article again... what do you think?

[dezhen2001]

design sifu: maybe you should write an article EXPLAINING the horrors of working on a magazine with a deadline! Im sure a lot of people would bet interested ot see what actually goes on...

for us, most people think we just train all day and every now and then produce a magazine! They dont realise the photos, interviews, transcripting... typing, customer service, databases etc. even all that BEFORE the design process is involved.

its not all as easy as it looks and can get d.amn annoying sometimes - especially 2 days before a deadline when u dont have pics to accompany a freelance article :p

dawood

[@PLUGO]

hehehe.. I'd probably never get it done!!!

But if Gene wroteit, I'd do my best to lay it out nicely ;)

So what's the story with your MAG dez?

is there an online somethingoranother?

[dezhen2001]

its a small magazine called Qi magazine published by my group called the Tse Qigong Centre... the editor is my sigung, Michael Tse. Its mainly to our members but also sold in various places around the world. Not as big a customer base as you by far, but its cool :)

im a design student so help on it when i can.. pretty simple, duotone inside and cmyk on the covers.

its pretty fun and i learned a lot about the design and printing process from it.

we have a few articles on our website if u look at my profile for the link.

dawood

[Oso]

DS

That was great. Thanks for shedding some light. Like dezhen
said anything else you wanted to add would be great.

dezhen, I actually have 4 or 5 copies of your mag.

The coffee shop I frequented before I moved carried it and I
would buy it occasionally. tai chi/chi kung being kinda secondary
to me.

I think the alternative book store/mag stand in my new town
has it as well.

imo it's a great source of info.

[dezhen2001]

thanks a lot!

considering its just produced (designed and laid out) by me and my Sifu (him alone when im at university), in such a short period of time it works quite well :)

the design has definately got better as we have grown imo :)

like i said, its mainly for people who actually study with us, as it mainly talks about our skills and masters... but it has good information.

i like working os i can get a sneek peek of the articles and pictures hehe :p

dawood

[TaoBoxer]

I think the guys at KFQG (Martha nad Gene specifically) were great to deal with. Whenever I had any questions they were right on it.

I submitted my photos on CD's since they were in TIF format. I tried to have very detailed explanations and captions. This, I was told, was greatly appreciated!

When my first article was published I was really blown away with the quality. The layout was amazing, and best of all, all 4 pages were printed intact, and not broken up with 4 colum inches next to an ad for Qigong videos on page 132!! It was held over for the "all Internal" issue that had Jet Li on the cover from "The One." I was in there side by side with Frank Allen, and obviously well known practitioner, and several other talented authors. No matter ow many times I do it, I always get a kick out of going to Borders or Barnes and Nobles, and picking up a magazine with my name in it.

I defiently do not envy having to find a full issue of good printable materiel every 30 days. It must be so hard!!

Thanks for all your hard work at KFQ to bring the magazine to print every month. I think it is one of the better Mag's on the rack and I for one like knowing there is a place for a serious discussion of the Arts.

Bill Lewitt

[dezhen2001]

thanks for sharing that Tao Boxer :)

i know from my own experience as it gets close to deadline time it can be very difficult lol. having images pre-scanned is a great help.

dawood

[Oso]

http://www.dogbrothers.com/techseq/200109/sept2001.htm


here's a decent set of pics

there are enough pics to easily see the transitions.

my only comment would be to add one more pic between
the first and second to show the transition

the lack of that pic makes me ask this:

did his left hand check the other guys stick hand before or
after he changed his sticks position on the other guys stick?

[GeneChing]

Design Sifu just brought this to my attention. Man, can't step away from the forum for a minute, can I? Anyway I'm back from Vegas and thought I'd chime in.

Thanks for all the props from everyone. I think Design Sifu covered the technical problems with photos pretty well, and the rest of you understood the nature of freelance submissions. What I'd like the address is the martial aspect of all of this.

The biggest probelm is that martial arts are intrinsically difficult to catch on camera. Why? Too fast. It's different than sports photography since your setting something up to demonstrate a technique and the impact isn't real. Most of the time, no one is getting really hit in those photo shoots, for obvious reasons, so we lack the dynamism you might see in a good boxing match photo. So technique pictures always come of a bit staged. But more so, really good kung fu often escapes the camera. For example, fajing is impossible to catch in a still photo. This is why chen style taiji tends to look really awful in still photos, but awesome when your right in front of it.

The Cung Le shoot was something we did as a favor to Cung and his fighters Jenna and Rudi. We've been close with them since Cung was just starting out - Cung even calls our publisher Gigi "mom." I always like technique articles, so I asked them to do something that was more streetfight oriented instead of the typical san shou articles that Cung is known for. That article was the result. It came out as sort of a comparison between Rudi's and Jenna's technique, which was intrinsically interesting, but I'll admit that the streetfighting aspect did have a flaw. The first technique of Jenna's did not address the hair grab - a common street technique - which is indicative of their training since hair grabs are not permitted in any fight sport that I know of. Now Jenna is very strong, and might be able to withstand a jerk from a hair grab, but your average self defense person would porbably succumb to the whiplash. However, I defer to Cung's expertise here since after all, I'm no master, much less a national champ.

I think that's the key behind all magazine articles, as well as all martial arts demos. Sometimes there are flaws. Nobody is perfect, although we might all aspire to be so. The key is to perceive those flaws. It's what separates the beginner from the intermediate. But that key only unlocks the door, it's up to you to go through it. If you try to go through by criticising others for flaws, you might not see the very same flaws in yourself. If you can correct those flaws, then that's what separates the intermediate from the master.