Times are changing in Vancouver's Chinatown Kung Fu community!

[firepalm]

Well the Vancouver Chinatown Kung Fu oldtimers will be up in arms. Just got back from a CNY dinner with one of the bigger Chinatown societies, they are starting a Chinese martial arts class & it will be taught by the first ever non Chinese to teach in one of Vancouver's Chinatown societies.

Vancouver's Kung Fu community has been fraught with politics for the past couple years & this one is really going to make for interesting times.

:cool:

[Diamond Talons]

Firepalm this is great news for all peoples & I understand the old timers but they are so living in the past that they can't be the ones who say what is & what isn't on this thing anymore as stupid color of peoples stuffs make problems for all & deny good peoples the chance to share in what we have to offer world such that it is. Change is painful & needs to happen as only things that don't change that much are dead & road to death the way of the older guys who just don't understand & don't want to understand. Ever wonder Firepalm why these older guys don't stay the same in all ways of life & turn air conditioning on in summer & central heat on during winter but say old ways always best in all things.

[iron_silk]

Hi firepalm,

Which is the Vancouver Chinese Association that did so? and what style does the new master teaches?

Thanks!

[firepalm]

Chinese Benevolent Association, the largest in Chinatown I believe (next to the Freemasons possibly). From what I understand the instructor has been invited, his own students performed at their annual dinner the other evening (a very entertaining demo I might add), however classes haven't been formerly started yet so I can't tell you too much more then that.

I just think it will make for interesting times!

:)

[iron_silk]

This is very interesting.

Even though I know there are many non Chinese practicioners there were never any formal instructors in Chinatown.

I heard there is an event at the Chinese Cultural Centre in the coming Sunday. Will you be there? Do you think there is anything related to this?

Thanks!

[firepalm]

Wasn't aware there was to be any martial art activity @ CCC. What is it? Don't know if it is related to Chinese Benevolent Ass'n.

Myself I will probably go check out the Mah Kin Fung Jubilee. :cool:

[nospam]

Times changed decades ago...

Vancouver's First non-chinese Gung Fu Instructor (http://members.shaw.ca/naya/lineage.htm)

Look under Barry Richardson (http://members.shaw.ca/naya/bio-richardson.htm) link.

nospam.
:cool:

[firepalm]

Not trying to dispute you Nospam, but there have been several non Asians that have taught within their instructors Kung Fu clubs as far back as the early seventies. Louis Reisic (also known as Louis Mah) joined the Wong Ha Club back in the late sixties & was appointed to open a branch school in 73 or 74. T. T. Tchoung had several westerner students that would often teach for him within his school. Alex Kwok who taught My Jong La Hon back in the early seventies in Strathcona (community next to Chinatown) had his senior student Chris Taylor sometimes teaching for him. These like Raymond Leung Lap Yau's private Kung Fu club were open to non Asians & often would have these persons teach in some capacity, as was the case with Sifu Barry Richardson.

I am referring more to the private societies which are quite another story. These societies, also known as benevolent ass'ns, tongs, fraternal organizations, etc... will have many functions (not just for Kung Fu) & can be very specific about their membership. Some are specifically for certain family lines, just about every major Chinese family name has a private society ie; Lee, Wong, Lum, Tse, Chan, Chang, etc... Some societies are for persons from a specific village or region of China ie; Hoy Ping, Yue Shan, Toi Shan, etc... Some are for people with specific political leanings ie; Taiwan Nationalists (aka Kou Min Tang). Some societies were for persons with interest in specific cultural activities ie; Jin Wah Sing Music society. Many of these societies are also very specific about who may not join ie; Vancouver's Chinese Freemason's used to have a sign on their door that read "Chinese only no Whites".

These organizations, unlike the independantly run Kung Fu schools, had many functions such as providing a social meeting place for their members, education (Chinese school for the young), cultural activities (music & opera big ones), job placement, some of the larger societies actually provided housing for early Chinese immigrants, some of the larger societies today like Shon Yee & the Freemason's actually have low income housing projects (in the Stratchcona area) for seniors. Providing Kung Fu instruction was only small part of what they did, that which they provided though was only for their membership & often the instructor came from within their membership ranks.

The addition of a non Asian within one of these societies is quite another thing, particularily in Vancouver's Chinatown which is still very steeped in custom & tradition.:cool:

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Vancouver's Chinese Freemason's used to have a sign on their door that read "Chinese only no Whites


Vancouver's Chinatown which is still very steeped in custom & tradition

Custom and Tradition?....Chinese only, no Whites...This is nothing but pure racism against Non-Chinese. Call a spade a spade. There are racists in all races of man, not just the Caucasian race. But at least the racism is disappearing (on both sides) and there have always been those individuals with an open mind and spirit who saw past skin color and eyeshape, otherwise there would be no Non-Chinese today who would know traditional Kung Fu. Speaking of the Chinese Freemasons...sure is ironic they at one time would not allow Caucasians into their organization, when the organization of Freemasons was started and proliferated by Caucasians.
I find any type of racism dispicable.

GHD

[iron_silk]

Where were the quotes from?

[iron_silk]

I am not sure but I will look into the detail of the Sunday event.

I think it has something to do with Hoi Ping...not sure.

[firepalm]

Golden Horse just to clarify, do not confuse Chinese Freemasons with the British Freemasons. Chinese Freemasons otherwise known as Hung Men Society grew out of the Anti Ching (Dynasty) movement. The Hung Men included rebels united in their cause to overthrow the Ching & restore the Ming. My personal feeling is the choice of 'Freemason' name for their English namesake was a result of the British colonization of Hong Kong & the possible usage of the Freemason term by British ex pats.

British Freemasons on the other hand is an out growth of the Knights of Templar, & if you are really into conspiracies the Priory of Zion. For a good read on the history of Freemasons find 'Holy Blood Holy Grail'.

Long story short Hung Men for whatever reason simply adopted the Freemason name no relation other then that.

As to racism, yes it exists in every culture, unfortunately. In the case of the Vancouver Chinese Freemasons, not a justification but the time the sign was on the door was back in the seventies. Many of the older Chinese generation of that time still had firmly in their minds (or had been told by their elders) the racism they had suffered at the hands of 'whites' in the form of race riots early in the century, head taxes, being unable to vote, simple discrimination, etc... :(

[iron_silk]

firepalm

impressive!

Actually I was kind of confused when you mentioned Freemason...but now I know you are refering to Hung Men

[iron_silk]

neito

Hey so you are in Vancouver as well?

Which school do you belong to?

[Ao Qin]

Interesting subject - the meeting of East & West Freemasonry.

The two are not very different - kind of like our DNA - some people see only differences (e.g. skin colour), some don't see any differences. The symbols (as Neito pointed out - shared square / compass), allegory (Shaolin legend vs. Freemason legend), and moral code are quite similiar. They met sometime ago - before any of us (hopefully) were born, and the meeting is fairly clear to those who practice both Crafts (and here I'm specifically refering to Dragoners & Eyebrowers) - in fact, it's interwoven into our bows, our forms, our poetry, etc.

This particular moral code emphasizes basic Confucian / Christian morality as the foundation as to how we should live our lives, and a more spiritual / esoteric spiritual system for those who are so inclined, and less lazy than myself!

Just my own four cents!

Toodles - Ao Qin

[iron_silk]

Hung Men has been around a long time before the unfortunately translation of their name to Freemason's right?

Also I think they emphasis "White People" becuase white people has been the predominate race that went around invading, controling, and destroying. Only a guess....perhaps firepalm can give a more actual answer

[David Jamieson]

Also I think they emphasis "White People" becuase white people has been the predominate race that went around invading, controling, and destroying.

Well, I have one name for you. Tamujin. :)

Wait, here's another. Idi Amin.

Hold on, I got many more...

I think your statement is not accurate.

I do agree that the Scottish rite is not exactly connected to the Chinese freemasons. But there are many other masonic groups that preserve "the craft" that are not from the scottish rite. there are african masons, arab masons, nordic masons, russian masons, and so on..

(remember that the double headed eagle of lagash was the symbol of the Romanov family, it is also the principal symbol of the scottish rite and it comes from an even more ancient people, the sumerians)

It is likely that the Chinese peoples who lived in the Chinatowns across the west held a little dislike for the people who ran the countries they lived in and did not allow for full integration due to their own fear and predjudice, thereby ghettoizing the Chinese into Chinatowns across North america and South america.

Let's also not forget how many Chinese were duped into being here through endentured slavery in the 1800's. I would be a little ticked at whitey myself :D

But, as the saying goes, that was then, this is now. I think it's great that these barriers and invisible walls are collapsing and we are finally tasting of each others successes again!

cheers

[firepalm]

Side note to Iron & Silk
The current instructor to the Chinese Freemasons is Hilbert Yiu, originally from the Wong Ha club. Actually Sifu Yiu has one of his senior students teaching there.

Re Chinese Only No Whites, as I mentioned that was a sign that was on the door back of the Chinese Freemason club in the seventies. The older generation that was around at that time, for whatever reason, probably still carried memories as to racism they suffered at the hands of 'caucasions'. Throughout the history there have a manner of people of different color discriminating or worse against others of differing color (or religion, social status, gender, etc...). Racism is just one of those unfortunate realities but at least times are changing.

As to neito's comment about a caucasion joining a 'tong', I understand that it not so much he is joining but simply teaching a class for them. As I understand he will continue to run his own school & teach for them as a part time thing. Further the connotation that 'tong' carries with it is often likened to a 'triad' which really is not the case, this society is the 'Chinese Benevolent Ass'n' & is probably the furthest you could get from being a 'tong'.
:cool:

[Gold Horse Dragon]

I was always taught two wrongs do not a right make! Racism will only beget more racism. Imagine if you went to China and experienced racism (which still happens today in China and Hong Kong) and you opened a club that said Caucasians only no yellows...well you know darn well what would happen..sorry to have to have written it this way, but it is a direct comparison to what was on the door. Whenever their is a minority and a majority, the minority will experience racism at the hands of the unenlightened.
I have taught in Chinatown now for many years and my Sifu before that. I am associated with several Tongs (not criminal organizations) who also use our building...so although I operate my own club, I also am the Sifu for and represent these Tongs.
I have directly experienced the racism (and I am part Chinese!..two generations back) in the 70's and even today (but not to the same extent now as in the past).
As I have already stated, I am glad there are those individuals and groups of individuals who do not judge you by the color of your skin or eyeshape, but rather by your Character.

[nothingness]

Firepalm,

I'm wondering if you'd be kind enough to recommend any teachers of the chinese internal martial arts in Vancouver. thanks in advance-

[neito]

since we kinda found our way to the topic of dicrimination. do chinese run schools in vancouver tend to encourage the acceptance of non-chinese students? i know that lots of schools don't advertise in order to avoid silly people who are looking for a McDojo to "take some classes" at. but is there much ethnic issues?

i may be moving to vancouver in several years and i would hope to find a good place to continue my training. unfortunatly my school does not have a branch there so i would like to be able to choose from as many schools as possible. as long as the instructor accepted me and was willing to teach i would be happy. i would not necessarily need the other students to accept me, hopefully my hard work would take care of that eventually anyway.

[firepalm]

Neito,
I would say most all active instructors now are open to acceptance of non Chinese students. The probable exceptions are the private societies in Chinatown but they're only for their membership & that sometimes depends on coming from a certain family line (Mah, Lee, Wong, etc...) or from a certain village (Hoy Ping, Toishan, etc...). Some instructors that teach for those societies also teach out of other locations and teach to non Chinese.

Most schools & instructors in the Vancouver CMA scene are pretty low key & some are quite hard to find however once you start to look around you will see there are actually a lot to choose from (about 50 or 60 active to varying degrees). The larger more reputable & successful schools are Ken Low's Shaolin, Shung Ying Kung Fu Club, Liang Shou Yu Wushu Taiji Qigong Institute, Traditional Kung Fu Training Center, West Coast Chinese Martial Arts, Mah Kin Fung Athletic Group, Jon Funk's Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Vincent Chow Bak Hok Kung Fu, Marquis Lung's Northern Shaolin, Wong Ha Athletic Ass'n, Gary Seto's Shaolin Choy Lee Fut & Tai Shing Pek Kwar Kung Fu Ass'n. To name a few.

Neito if you are looking for a specific style let me know & I can probably point you in the right direction.
Nothingness,
There are several good internal instructors, what specifically are you looking for? Taiji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Qigong, sparring, etc...? Just for starters I would say for internal look into Liang Shouyu, Zhang Zhibin, Li Rong, Yang Gou Tai, Sam Masich, Victor Fu and Paul Ng just for starters.



:cool:

[nothingness]

Firepalm,

Thanks for your response. Would you mind if I emailed you to discuss this offthread?

thanks-

[nothingness]

Firepalm

Received your private message and sent you one back- thanx

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

You must understand that kung fu culture is hundredds of years behind times. The closed door approach of some schools acts like a time capsule that preserves a line of thinking that is prevalent in the pre-colonial days of china.

I have been to some of these schools in Vancover and had the rare opportunity to interview one of the senior students on why there are training kung fu. He answered " To over throw the Manchus of course (in cantonese bevause they don't speak english)"

I asked, can I join your koon? "He said no because you're white". But what has being white got to do with it. He says it gets very hot in China and the sunlinght is very intense - we train in the outdoors alot and you're color of your skin outs you at risk of skin cancer.

I said, "we're not in china and I wear sun block when I go to the beach". I asked "so now can I join your koon?"

The senior student pondered for awhile and said" being white you make bad spies!"

I said " I just want to learn self defence, not be a spy"

He said" the manchus will pick you out straight away and take away your sun block and torture you in the sun"

I said " The manchus are long gone, when was the last time you'd been outside"

He said" this is a closed door koon, we have spent many generations training in this house and in this court yard that replicates the one that our ancestors trained when they were in china - we hanve not been to the outside word"

At that point, a shrivelled old man came out and spoke in broken cantonese which was hard to undersdtand. eventually, i found out he was the head sifu. He beat his student on the head for talking to a white person and was sent to the back of the yard to do pushups.

Ridiculous this story may sound the truth about some of the practices in kung fu is even more unbelievable. don't you agree? wasn't it the civil war where US sorted out the issues of racial discrimination?

[firepalm]

At which club was this? Racking my brain for one with a yard!:confused:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Firepalm:

The one 2 blocks down the road from where you're standing right now and turn left you can't miss it.

Think of what I say as a parable. I hate to sound like a preacher but its for those in kung fu who still judge students or sifus by their skin color.

It is sad that the title of the past says "times are changing" they should have changed a long time ago. It sickens me to hear of racist running around under the mask of kung fu. If I were chinese i would not want to join one of those koons, just like being white i don't join the ku klux clan.

[cha kuen]

Of course this is a good thing when the old school teachers are willing to teach. It's now or never because in another 30 years or so they will not be living anymore.

I still hear about great masters around age 70 not wanting to teach until they find the right person or get the right amount of money. But hey! They are 70 and they're gonna die so it's either teaching some good students or taking their stuff to the grave.