I've learned that who says something is as important as what is being said on this bo

[SifuAbel]

Since I'll get no more from the last thread, I started a new one.


I've learned that who says something is as important as what is being said on this board.

Lengend posted



It's no longer that simple to shoot in for a double leg and kill the guy on the ground. The standup fighters are training hard on sprawling and other tactics to avoid being taken to the ground...and when taken to the ground they are escaping the positions to get back up! Look at BAS RUTTEN. He's such an incredible striker...a natural. They need to do a documentary on him...and his evolution. The playing field for standup fighters and grapplers are now even. No longer one style dominates.

(Not an attack on you legend)

Most of you gave a hearty "yes sir" to

this bit of info. Yet, If I say something exactly like this(which I have for some time) I'm accused of being a non-conforming traditionalist that can't see the error of my ways. Where is the justice?!?!

Why is it OK for someone who has "Submission fighter" as his style to say this and not for someone who notes kung fu as thier experience, even though its the exact same info?

To say that its because he is a submission fighter and that my observation, being the same, is theoretical wishfull thinking is the answer of petulant child, carly. Your assumption is baseless.

[joedoe]

You've only just learned this? How long you been posting?

[ricksitterly]

hahaha i think ur right. its kinda like high school

[SevenStar]

It's style based, man. It also depends on who you are and whayt you're known for...You train kung fu. Nothing wrong with that. BUT Kung fu in recent years has become known for not stepping up. Also, you have been known to troll people. In a sense, that's two strikes against you.

That also depends on the people reading. Some people will read what you say, and not form an oppinion until after they read it. Others will have a pre-formed oppinion based on the above.

Such is life...

[yenhoi]

SifuAbel, because you never post exactly what another, level headed, clear spoken, non-offensive poster has posted.

Your posts usually contain insults and gross generalizations based on style alone.

..and in general your posts sound like a loud whining cuban, shut the **** up already.

:eek:

[SifuAbel]

Sound? You get sound on this board? And here I am typing like a sucker.

Yen, You are rescent history. I base opinions on style alone? Gods, that is way too easy to turn on you. Pot meet kettle, as some here like to say.

Nice cheap shot with that cuban thing. Very mature of you. And you want to allude to the same comment on me?

Trolling means that I posted something just to get an inflammtory thread going like carlys last little gem, where have I trolled anyone? This was a real question. So what if I say it versus some other joe, if its the same its the same. The ultimate point here is that truth is subjective.

To vote for then against the exact same idea based on such biases is the ultimate immaturity.

And when you stop being self serving in your ideas, yen, you might want to take time to read the posts BEFORE mine once in a while. Nothing happens in a vacuum. You may find that I have actually posted threads that don't have any percieved anamousity whatsoever.

So to be true to my percieved form, stick it in whatever ethnicity your ass is.

[Merryprankster]

Sifu,

You get caught up in the grappler this and that argument. There's not a single experienced grappler here that thinks putting a man on his butt is simple--because we've all tried to do it, and it's actually pretty hard until you get the hang of it. And then, if they're any good at takedown defenses, it's still pretty hard.

As soon as somebody mentions BJJ or grappling, you go ape**** every time. You don't even appear to take the time to read the entire post, or, if you do, it seems you take bits you don't agree with and remove all context and qualifiers when responding.

Finally, you're a man on a mission--and that's great, as far as it goes, because you're passionate about what you do and about what CMA can be; however, in the past, this has typically taken the form of "CMA has EVERYTHING and it's totally complete and you don't need anything else ever and if you don't see that I feel sorry for you," when many of the more informed people on this board have straight up admitted that, for instance, ground work and repeated, focused, practical takedown defenses are either ignored, glossed over, or not practiced on people outside their style who truly know what they are doing.

On the other hand, all us MMA types have repeatedly recognized the inherent weaknesses in the things we do. Straight BJJers are not known for takedowns or striking; wrestlers have historically been susceptible to submissions until they learn, and styles with a primary stand-up focus have had to learn how to stay off their backs. When we don't see others admit the weaknesses inherent in their training, it makes us circumspect w/regards to the individuals claims.

[KnightSabre]

Bas Rutten is a mixed martial artist,infact he has become so good at grappling that he has beaten alot of guys with submission holds, he was a great stand up fighter but saw the need to learn submission grappling and did so.

You are using Bas Rutten in an argument but actually he did exactly what we are recommending you to do, CROSS TRAIN.

[MightyB]

That attack on Carly wasn't justified.

Carly wrote:

it is probably because a submission fighter is perceived to have the experience in this to know whereof he speaks, and not to say it out of theoretical wishful thinking.

He wasn't directing that comment at you, he was just stating a simple fact. Too many people base their training on what they think it is like to be in a fight. Without actually fighting, a person can't really know. MMAs are the only one's who are putting their money where their mouths are. It's kind've the ol' shut up and prove it mentality and, from what I've seen, they are actually the most humble people on the board.

Legitimacy requires humility, pain, and sacrifice. You have to dare to lose to really win, and, even if you lose, you still have real, not theoretical, experience to base your training on. That's why MMAs get the most respect on the board.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by MightyB
You have to dare to lose to really win, ....

Then, theoretically, someday I'll be a great grappler!:D

Able, a lot of people don't relate well to any one who is passionate about something, as you are about Kung Fu. I know that a lot of people don't like me because of my unswerving defense of American freedoms. I try not to get too upset about it and post my thoughts any way. Everyone can decide if, or how much they agree with me. As to whether or not they like me, let's get real- this is an internet forum, so who cares. And if they base their opinions on what is said solely on popularity I'd say pitty their lack of maturity and ability to think rationally. And, to be fair, us passionate bstrds can be a pain in the butt sometimes- that too is their problem!

[zen_monkey]

Theres a lot of talk of the lack of ground fighting in the CMA which is true for certain clubs. If you want ground fighting experience I would advise that you should get out there and try it. If you like it take it to your club and let others learn from your experiences.

MMa's are generally sport based and the transition to the street is not as plain sailing as some would believe. In most fights that go to ground I would say the normal reaction for most fighters would be getting back onto their feet. Who wants to be rolling around getting into a dirty fight. Everyone knows when grappling occurs that no matter how good you are you can be taken out by poke in the eye, bites etc.

I like to practise certain aspects of ground fighting but the aim is usually to learn how to incapacitate quickly, breaking free and getting back to my feet.

Finally, if you've no ground fighting experience I would say get some. But I would not concentrate on it and remember UFC and other such events are sports and most definetly not the real thing

[ShaolinTiger00]

LMAO

[Merryprankster]

FWIW, Abel, when I said "more informed," I was speaking in the general sense... not more informed than you, specifically.

Zim- if you don't know how to escape on the ground, you'll have less of a chance of getting up. Even if you know how to fight standing up, the ground is a wholly different animal. This can cost you your life. (Hockey dads.) Don't even bother with the biting, poking and eye-gouging stuff as your "answer". If this is your solution, enjoy having your limbs broken.

[yenhoi]

SifuAbel: ;)

lighten up man.

You shouldent let the MMA pagans get to you so easily.
sheit.

:eek:

[zen_monkey]

If u think dirty fighting is stupid you should learn how to really fight and not hide in your gym practising grappling over and over. A real fight has very little in common with a grappling match.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Trolling means that I posted something just to get an inflammtory thread going like carlys last little gem, where have I trolled anyone? This was a real question. So what if I say it versus some other joe, if its the same its the same. The ultimate point here is that truth is subjective.

To vote for then against the exact same idea based on such biases is the ultimate immaturity.


Nope. There are quite a few people on this board, you see. Unless the people who disagree with you are the same people whe agree with Legend, you can't really come to that conclusion.

A lot of people tend to skip over posts from incendiary posters. Then there are people who enjoy poking bears. If you are seen as something of a troll, it is possible that people disagree with you just to get you riled up. And that that people who agreed with Legend didn't even show up to agree with you at all.

That's the problem with being fractious. It makes you an easy target.

You really have to keep in mind that you are not conversing with one entity, here. This board is composed of myriad individuals .

[Merryprankster]

I didn't say those attacks are stupid. I said they aren't the answer.

[ShaolinTiger00]

A real fight has very little in common with a grappling match.

"a STREET FIGHT is the last place you want to be in a street fight! Usually, you go to the ground in a street fight BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER! In the real world, people trip (on curbs, curbstones, rocks, other combatants), slip (on mud, snow, water, because you wore slick-soled dress shoes on a date), try takedowns that seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't work out the way you planned (he grabs on to you as you try to sweep his legs out, great drunken ******* that he is, and you both go down), and, surprise, you get thrown or knocked down! Having a good sprawl is great, but will not keep you upright in all the above circumstances. Once you're down, your new friend may not let you get up so quick.

You don't intend to get in an accident every time you drive, but you still (should) wear your seat belt, right?

Yes, facing an opponent in the street bent on doing me harm, I will drop to my butt, scooting towards him like a dog with worms, my legs extending and waving about like the tentacles of a giant squid, trying desperately to entwine my legs around his hips and draw him into my maw-guard so that I can perform a complicated sweep. Sheesh.

BJJ is about getting top position. Once you get top position, you defeat by strikes or submissions. Watch some of the challenge fights on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action vids. Do you see anyone pulling guard? Nope, Royce, Royler, Rickson, and Rorion do the same thing with monotonous regularity: clinch, takedown, establish mount, punch them until they roll and give their back, and either punch them in the back of the head some more for chuckles or choke them out. That's the progression.

If you do wind up with someone on top of you, his legs will either be outside yours (not so good) or inside your legs (better). Know how to exploit both situations to escape or attack. "

[zen_monkey]

Do MMA's train dirty fighting and if so what do they train.

[MightyB]

MMAs train you to fight.

Any girl instinctively knows how to "dirty fight". Scratch, pull hair, bite, meeeeoooooowwwww.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"Real fights aren't pretty like on the mat. In the street, people bite and claw and eye-gouge!"
Meeow! Phffsst! Meeoww!

UFC 1: Gerard Gordeau tries to bite Royce Gracie's ear off. Guess who tapped, and if Royce hadn't been such a nice guy, would have had a broken elbow besides the choke he suffered. (Watch the tape if you don't believe me. You can clearly see the bite mark on Royce's ear at the end, and don't have to be a lip reader to understand what Royce was saying to the ref). Rickson would have probably broken the arm. Relson would probably have broken the arm and then killed him.

Vale Tudo 1995 (The fight chronicled in the documentary "Choke"): Gerard Gordeau (again) vs. Yuki Nakai. Gordeau eye gougees Nakai, who still taps Gordeau in an arm bar, despite sustaining serious damage to his eye. If he hadn't been in the ring with a referee nearby, do you think Gordeau would have a functioning arm (or maybe his life) today?

I have you in a falling arm-bar (juji-gatame). You say you would just bite my leg, a la Bruce Lee vs. Bolo Yeung in "Enter the Dragon". You bite, I extend my hips. Who is going to open his mouth first? I will pour some betadine on the bite and have a pretty scar to show the girls. You will have a broken arm and no teeth after I drop my boot heel on your mouth.

You can train "dirty fighting" all you want; if you don't have positional control, biting won't help you much. Obviously, you do have to be careful defending against the bite (try keeping it in the back of your mind next time you roll, and see when you are vulnerable), but no way in HELL am I going to use biting as a tool in my own defensive strategy, unless it is a matter of life or death. I have too much respect for blood-borne pathogens."

[ewallace]

Ever seen the commercial (I think it's a Fed Ex commerical) where one guy throws out an idea and gets no response from the board. Then another guy says the same thing with hand gestures and everybody thinks it's a wonderful idea?

You just didn't make the right hand movements Sifu Abel.

[dnc101]

ST, you make some good points. I used to think that way- that the dirty tricks could bail me out of a bad situation (like being in a ground fight). Fortunately, I listened to some of the grapplers here and checked it out, as well as giving it some thought. I don't 'study' a particular ground fighting art per say. I do try and learn what I can without a regular school. I'd like to get competent enough to have a chance of extracating myself if a fight goes that direction (down). And, have you ever been in a fight and not noticed you were hurt untill afterwards, usually just about the time your nerves start to settle down? It's probably the same for the jerk you are fighting. I've also known a few people who ate pain like it was candy. So, I have to agree ith you here. I still don't think it takes anything away from the stand up/striking arts, but I think it adds something worthwhile.

[MightyB]

No, he did this [guesture my hand in an up and down motion], you did this[gesture my hand in a side to side motion].

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by zen_monkey
MMa's are generally sport based and the transition to the street is not as plain sailing as some would believe.

Since you're new here, I won't mind saying this again for the 6543169848th time... Sport based arts provide a format that allows full contact training on a regular basis. phoenix eyes, eye gouges, etc. do not. Consequently, I'm willing to bet that the MMA guy who uses his double leg, roundhouse, etc. is alot better at applying his techniques than you are at applying your "deadly" techniques that you can't apply at full speed on a regular basis.
How is repeatedly drilling eye gouges WITHOUT CONTACT helping you for the street? Do you really think you are that much more/better prepared than the sport fighter?

In most fights that go to ground I would say the normal reaction for most fighters would be getting back onto their feet. Who wants to be rolling around getting into a dirty fight. Everyone knows when grappling occurs that no matter how good you are you can be taken out by poke in the eye, bites etc.

change that first sentence... the reaction of most fighters isn't to get up. The reaction of the guy ON BOTTOM is to get up. the guy on top is gonna stay there and pound you into oblivion. While he has you down and controlled, it's EASIER for him to eye gouge you, as your mobility is limited. That is where grappling comes into play - you want to be able to get up efficiently if you are put down.

I like to practise certain aspects of ground fighting but the aim is usually to learn how to incapacitate quickly, breaking free and getting back to my feet.

please describe some of the ground stuff you do.

Finally, if you've no ground fighting experience I would say get some. But I would not concentrate on it and remember UFC and other such events are sports and most definetly not the real thing

Neither is your kwoon, however you seem to think that it will prepare you better than the ring will...

[carly]

in all honesty
it is probably because a submission fighter is perceived to have the experience in this to know whereof he speaks, and not to say it out of theoretical wishful thinking.
That's a fair answer and it's likely pretty close to the truth and an answer to your question.

[SifuAbel]

"and not to say it out of theoretical wishful thinking"


In that sentence you are ASSUMING that all kung fu guys don't fight with contact, hasn't had opponents of different styles and that he just sits there and dreams it all up. I don't know about anybody else, but this Kung fu guy doesn't fit your paradigm. On what do you base this? There may be some that have ideas not experiences but that is not the totality.


Weren't you the one who had a hardon for pek kwar not too long ago? What for?

You prove my point . You assume things about me without any knowledge of my personal history. So if one guy says something vs. me saying the same thing YOUR bias tells you to perceive it differently.

:D

And before anyone starts , I don't beleive in the cheap outs either.

I'll get to the other posts later.

MP, maybe we perceive things differently. I see it as me reacting to what people say as "kung fu is X" more than "Bjj is X", I challenge you to show me where I have said BJJ is ineffective. And note that many here DO beleive all you need is good ground work. I don't think any style can be the end all be all, you have to study your opponent to beat him and that means absorbing some of his strategy. We have agrreed on this before, perhaps you don't rememeber. But many of you form opinions that are as based on conjecture and hyperbole more than actual study. This can be said for both "camps" of course. CMA has a lot more to offer than some of you want to give it credit for. If its out of bitterness, ingnorance, self service or misinformation it still doesn't make it abosolutely right.

[red5angel]

sifuable - allow me to critique your last response for a second. You come off as being waaaay too defensive and waaay too aggressive in your posts man, and that doesn't fly for very long around here.
You have to learn to cool it on your responses if you want to get respect. When someone says somehting you do't like you seem to fly off the handle. If you look at alot of your reponses there are a lot of "you" statements, which feel accusatory to those youa re responding to. Also, you accuse some people of assuming but then follow up by making a lot of asumptions, even "assuming" that one is "assuming", when you could actually bother to clarify what it is they are trying to say.
Another good piece of advice, dont bother with those people who seem to aggrivate you because more likely then not, they are trying to aggrivate you! Don't bother replying to them unless you feel like an argument, but your argument style makes you look like sort of an *******, no offense.

By the way, don't put smileys in any comments to try to soften them up if you don't really mean to soften them. I don't know about anyone else but it is way too evident to me when someone sticks in a random smiley to make it look like they are being a good sport.

[KC Elbows]

Ass.:)

[Water Dragon]

Hole:D

[carly]

OK, if you don't fit into the GENERALIZATION about MOST TMA guys, fine, ,t was a generalization, and not aimed at you specifically. You seem to have some sort of history or reputation on this board, to judge from tone of the replies you receive, the details of which are unknown to me as a relatively new poster here.
As for me "having a hard on for Pek Kwar", as you rather crudely put it, yes, I am very interested in pigua quan.
I'm not used to people who publicly call themselves "sifu" being so crass and impolite, actually.
Wondering if BJJ has something to offer doesn't preclude an interest in good traditional styles of kung fu - it's not an "either/or" situation. I love traditional kung fu, and I see nothing wrong or threatening about exploring other arts and sports as well. I like badminton too, and that doesn't mean I have to abandon kung fu to do it.
You seem to have a very defensive attitude, thinking that everyone here is hostile to you or something - I don't know you from Adam, and have no pre-conceived notions about you.
Maybe you have a history with some other posters here, but I'm not them.
But when I ask about traditional pigua I'm treated with suspicion by you, and when I ask a legitimate question about MMAs to my fellow Traditional Chinese Martial Artists, I'm dismissed as a troll by you.
It seems you have made up or closed your mind and I can't win or get through to you.
This is a great forum, and I really enjoy it. I don't want to use it as a place to toss insults back and forth - that's not my thing. I post only in good will and hoping to learn a bit here.
Try and see my posts for what they are, and not what you imagine them to be.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by carly
I'm not used to people who publicly call themselves "sifu" being so crass and impolite, actually.


Let's not start on that one again, mmmkay?

[Royal Dragon]

Lets not start what????

[Water Dragon]

If you missed that whole fiasco, your lucky

[Merryprankster]

SifuAbel,

I know we do agree on a good deal of things. We disagree on some as well. But you DO get a little defensive when people start talking about BJJ or grappling. I can also understand it. Guys like Ralek haven't exactly endeared "my" community to CMA practicioners.

[Royal Dragon]

I may not have missed it. Which fiasco?, there have been so many.

[ricksitterly]

like i said before, the whole forum is totally high school :) <<(observe the smiley face, which immidiately softens my statement)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
If you missed that whole fiasco, your lucky

Yeah, I remember that one.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i used to think that sexual relations with squirels was impossible.

[Nevermind]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
i used to think that sexual relations with squirels was impossible.

LMFAO at GDA!

[SifuAbel]

man !, what a whirl wind.

Carly,

Lets see

" an new MMA forum where you can go and tell them that their technbiaques won't work against traditional kung fu!"

It doesn't compare to "heY guys, here's a new MMA forum I found , enjoy. "

thats troll sign #1


"and not to say it out of theoretical wishful thinking."

You admit its a generalization, but its a gross generalization used to incite a reaction.

thats troll sign #2

You are a smarmy one. I could go on....

People don't know the history on this board? Whippersnappers.

R5A,

Yes, Mom. :rolleyes:
I assume that you assume that we assume that they assume and the assumption is just assuming to assume. Making me dizzy. My post seems clear enough to me.


smilies, you mean like.

Kiss :D
My :D
Ass :D

[carly]

but I begin to suspect that you have your mind made up about people and subjects and that it is probably a waste of time to try and communicate further with you.