Qigong for Western Boxing?

[IronFist]

A lot of Chinese styles, especially internal ones, practice strikes very slowly with focus on intent and breathing (taiji for example). For whatever reason this is done, (to get the motion down perfectly, to develop qi, etc.) later on the motion is sped up and can become very powerful when used as a strike (for whatever reason... because the strike is filled with qi, because the biomechanical aspects are ingrained in the nervous system, whatever you want to call it).

Would it be feasible to do this with western boxing strikes? I mean, the fist is closed, so it's probably harder to use qi (if you want to be traditional about it) than it would be through an open palm, but what about practicing, say, a jab, very slowly, keeping in mind all the aspects of the slow martial movements done in taiji, coordinated with the breathing, etc.

Would there be any benefit to such training? Or for western boxing is one just better banging away on heavy bags or slabs of beef? If the latter is true, why don't taiji practicioners bang away on heavy bags?

IronFist

[SevenStar]

I asked this question like a year ago... you'll get mixed oppinions. Most of the internalists say it just doesn't work that way. Externalists say that once you reach a certain level, it becomes internal.

[yenhoi]

I dont see why you cant shadowbox and focus on form, which for a begginer would mean going slower. Remember to keep up the footwork and defense, but focus on form.

Dunno how that really relates into anysort of qigong, but what your talking about isent unheard of.

'Course it doesnt pass the aliveness test so to hell with that crap.

[IronFist]

SevenStar, I didn't mean to steal your question :)

yenhoi, what's an aliveness test?

IronFist

[SevenStar]

my guess is sparring

[IronFist]

My O/T threads get more responses.

:D

IronFist

[Tainan Mantis]

Ironfist,

On strikes:
In our Mantis training there is no slow strikes to the bag, always full power full speed.

In shadow boxing there is slow/fast striking.
This means that the strike itself is very fast, but the before and after is very slow.
This is to help the student feel where the power is coming from and where it is going.
This is not an advanced training.

On chi:
I know many will disagree, but this is our take.

The strike itself has no chi...
but there is chi when you strike.
The chi is air, that tangible substance, not metaphysical.
In practice the body has air inside, like a big ball full of air. This must be kept under pressure so that when I get struck my internal organs are not damaged.
This should be no surprise to people who practice with hard contact.

Also, the body is a weapon, like a log or battering ram which uses the chest, butt, hips shoulders etc to strike the opponent, the body should be filled with air when doing these strikes.

To test and practice, there are exercises where the partners smash these parts of the body together.
If no partner then done on a tree.

This clip shows some strikes where both people are filled with air on hitting and being hit.
It is a practice method only.
The "hook punch" is striking with the inside of the forearm to the neck, different from the boxing type hook punch.

Deng Ta (http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/multimedia/dengta.html)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by IronFist

Would there be any benefit to such training? Or for western boxing is one just better banging away on heavy bags or slabs of beef?


I believe that it can be benefitial.
One of the reasons for the slow training is that flaws in the movement/brathing become obvious and thus can be corrected.

Doing Forms slow is only part, they are practiced at different speeds.

Some forms like Yang Small Fame (Advanced Form) contains lots of postures(100+, not sure of exact number) and are done in less than 2~3 minutes.

In one external style I learned to punch by first pressing my Fist against the Wall and than to slowly increase distance and hit the wall.



If the latter is true, why don't taiji practicioners bang away on heavy bags?

Who sez we don't?

Have a look for TJQ strength training and similar.
Metal Pipe, Pole shaking, Tai Chi Ball, etc.

[Laughing Cow]

IronFist.

If you are interested in how we develop internal concepts in Chen TJQ, let me know and I can put together a set of articles with explanation/exercises by a well-known practicioner that also writes for one of the TJQ magazines.

[Tvebak]

One of my friends box and in their class they also do som slowmotion punching exercises to perfect the technique and some slowmotion downwards punches holding weights to train to pull the punch back quickly.
In my Internal arts class in DK the taichiguys also do punches on matresses (as we have no punchbacks).

[MightyB]

the only time you go slow, is when you're first learning the technical aspects of the punch, counter punch, stance, footwork etc., or are warming up. It's done at a slower speed until you get the hang of it or are warmed up-- about 15 minutes.

You then practice with speed. Speed to lead, punches in bunches, broken rhythm-- you've heard them all before. How you train is how you fight. You won't have Tommy "the Hitman" Hearns's power, or "Sugar" Ray Leonard's speed if you practice hitting the bag, shadow boxing, sparring, and mit drills slowly. That's why boxing trainers have punch counters and timers. One way a boxer practices to get more speed is they take one round's time (2 minutes for amateurs) and they hit a heavy bag constantly for that time. They focus on speed, not power, and they get a total punch count. They then try and build on that punch count every time they practice.

About chi kung... Matt Furey claims that there are "old school" chi kung like exercises in boxing and wrestling. One that he described in his fitness letter is to inhale deeply through the nose, and then hold it while compressing your abdominal muscles. Hold it about 3 to 5 seconds then exhale. He says to do 20 reps like that to build strength.

[count]

I don't see why a chi kung set couldn't be created around boxing. First of all, not all chi kung is slow or soft. Chi kung is more about intent than speed. Fists can be closed if the intent is soft on the inside and hard on the outside or visa versa. Hsing-I five elements chi kung uses fists. Why not create a set based on boxing. It would probably require a strong foundation in some other method of chi kung already though. And than, would it be necessary?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Breathing with the punches is very important to a western boxer but has little need for praticing anything slow to cultivate this.

[yenhoi]

IF: that was a smart ass comment. There is a thread about "why forms arent alive" which should have plenty of infomation, or just goto www.straightblastgym.com for more marketing, er training, info concerning "aliveness."

Basically a fancy *buzzword* for sparring, or a fully resisting opponent.

;)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MightyB
About chi kung... Matt Furey claims that there are "old school" chi kung like exercises in boxing and wrestling. One that he described in his fitness letter is to inhale deeply through the nose, and then hold it while compressing your abdominal muscles. Hold it about 3 to 5 seconds then exhale. He says to do 20 reps like that to build strength.


Matt Furey also claims that he's currently receiving training instruction from the spirit of the (deceased) Farmer Burns. I'd tend to take anything he says with a pound or two of salt.

[MightyB]

This link was provided by Kempo Guy on the training and health forum:

"Farmer" Burns Training Manual. (http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson01.htm)

Scroll down--- there's alot of Chi Kung-Like exercises described and pictured on the site.

[fa_jing]

I don't think there is anything in boxing for standing or slow moving qi-gong, but I can't see why the Tai-chi long form or Wing Chun Sil lim tao or Lohan boxing set wouldn't help a boxer. Or eight pieces of Brocade or yi jin ching - style calestenics and breathing sets. The motions are not too similar to boxing motions so it wouldn't have any benifit to said boxer's fighting form - but the Qi gong benefits of deep muscle relaxation, improved circulation and breathing would certainly result. Also I'd echo the comments that during regular fast boxing training, breathing is very important as is relaxation, also during skipping training attention is focussed on these points. In fact we could call skipping "Light body qi gong" and get away with it.

[MightyB]

Deep breathing and internal massage. (http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson03.htm)

[SevenStar]

:mad: the responses I got weren't like this...a few were, but not most of them.

Then also, I asked on the internal board - they prolly though I was trolling them.

[Black Jack]

That Sandow site is one of my favorite for old school weightlifting techniques and ideas.

Western physical culture has had a focus on internal breathing for a very long time, the farmer burns aspect is just one of them, it would take a large amount of scrolling through the other manuels on that site, but you will see references to breath control in a number of them.

It seems that just untell recent times did a more direct focus on specific breathing methods go away, though I could be wrong, I remeber even in my old elementary/middle school days that our ***** gym teacher spoke about the important aspects of breathing in sports, working out, and so forth. You can also find those aspects in Pilates, stretching methods, mediation and so on.

[CrippledAvenger]

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but that toe-hold shown in lesson two looks positively vicious.

anyhow, good thread.

[Braden]

[Reputable] Taiji guys don't picture what they're doing as if moving slowly builds up a kind of energy which causes them to be dangerous when the move fast.

So you can't just take that out of context and insert it into what you're doing and expect to get the benefits of taiji... any more than someone could take up skipping and expect to become a talented boxer from it.

Moving slowly can be a useful approach to training within the context of a proper training regime. In other words, there's alot of things you're trying to do, and moving slowly is an approach to this. But moving slowly, itself isn't the goal nor the method.

Certainly, if moving slowly helps you get your boxing technique down, that may be beneficial. And certainly doing some exercises for relaxation, breathing, and/or core strength may be beneficial. But none of these are the same as doing taiji or one of the other 'internal' arts.

[Shooter]

Iv'e had a 'performance-based' chi kung regimen in the training I offer for ring-fighting for about 5 years. It's the foundation of the way we train Tai Chi for MMA and sub-wrestling, and the results have been very good.

[yenhoi]

can we hear more?

please?

:)

[Shooter]

yenhoi, I should make clear that when I use the term chi kung, I'm meaning 'breath-work'...we're just bunch of TCC wannabes and don't have mystical energy skills like the real Tai Chi players. :D

The breathwork we use under different types of performance demands involves the 4 main breathing patterns. Each of these is explored individually since everyone comes into the training each day carrying a different bunch of emotional and psychological baggage. We don't try to analyse any of it. I stress the idea of developing an instinctual acuity to ones overall internal and using the appropriate breathing pattern for very immediate and practical needs.

I'd like to outline the process but I think you should make enquiries to some of the more authoritative people out there (and here at KFO!) who really understand Chi Kung as it pertains to the performance demands of combat athletics. Like I said, we're just a crew of wannabes who wannabe just like all the real Tai Chi fighters out there. Let's see....there's umm...uhhh....hmmm...nevermind then. HA! :p

[yenhoi]

I think you are doing wonders for the prestige of TCC in MMA.

Not that prestige matters, but it does. :D

The breathwork we use under different types of performance demands involves the 4 main breathing patterns. Each of these is explored individually since everyone comes into the training each day carrying a different bunch of emotional and psychological baggage. We don't try to analyse any of it. I stress the idea of developing an instinctual acuity to ones overall internal and using the appropriate breathing pattern for very immediate and practical needs.

Good enough explanation for this medium, thanks alot!

;)

[Braden]

Aren't all qigongs from martial styles 'performance based'?

[Shooter]

yenhoi, thanks for saying so... :cool:


Aren't all qigongs from martial styles 'performance based'?

Are they??? I haven't seen anything in books, or online, offered up by any of the recognized Tai Chi 'authorities' which would address the performance demands of combat athletics for their players to use while under actual duress...wonder why that is... Perhaps this discussion will prompt some of them to consider enlightening us once they scramble to get a handle on the concepts from a traditional Tai Chi perspective. As I said, I would outline my process, but I don't know $hit compared to the real knowledgeable Tai Chi folks who post here and elsewhere.

[Braden]

That doesn't corrospond with my experience. What taiji authorities are you talking about?

As a martial art, taiji methods should deal with martial performance, yes?

[Shooter]

Braden, please share your experiences then. I'm definitely interested in other sources of info regarding Chi Kung as it's pertains to combat athletics.


As a martial art, taiji methods should deal with martial performance, yes?

Of course. :p