Tijiquaun competition routines

[bodhitree]

I recently ordered The Chen Tai Chi competition routine video from the special in Kung Fu Qigong magazine. I have studied the Yang system for a while now. I have a couple questions. What is the differences between the competition routines and the traditional forms? Do competition routines use the same pre birth breathing? Can you Pick up the combat applications with the comp. routine? Thank for reading Enlightenment Bless:)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Unfortunately you'll find that competition forms have very little to do with traditional forms. Competitions rarely exhibit traditional principles at best. So the breathing aspect is rarely adhered to, and no the fighting applications are watered down a bit due their requirement being for asthetic. I wouldn't bother too much, but maybe just a little, with competition forms as they tend to miss out a lot. By and large they seem to be the bare bones minimum forms, with a lot missing in between.

[wujimon]

I agree with RM in that a lot of the competition sets are watered down. I tend to prefer the traditional routines myself. From my experience, the traditional routines tend to have a bit more repetition involved in the form resulting in what I believe to be the more martial training through repetition aspect. I've heard that the 56 chen competition form is supposed to be derived from the traditional "old routine, frame 1" (laojia yi lu) but the competition one is supposed to be more balanced in that the laoji yi lu had more of an emphasis on right handed techniques? Don't quote me on this, but this is something that I've heard.

What I find interesting is an influx of "shortened" sets done by some of the chen masters. For instance, Chen Xiaowang's 19 form set and Chen Zhenglei's 18 form set and Feng Zhiqiang's 24 form set. I haven't practiced any of the shortened sets before and I've only seen the 19 and the 18, but from the looks of these 2, I'd rather pick the 19 since it seems to have the first like 8-10 postures directly taken out of the laojia yi lu and some other fajing, whereas the 19 form sets, to me, almost resembles the modern beijing 24 form set but with a chen style flavoring.

Overall, I'd say that if you're into the breathing aspect, jing path, and combat stuff, the best way is to find an instructor. I think tapes are good for references but I think it's really to get some hands on instruction on the basics b/c that's the foundation for which everything is built upon.

hth.
wuji.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

though the competition routines are somewhat watered down, it does not mean they are incomplete. i have studied several of the shorted forms and find a few of them uncessary while others are quite good.

examles of good ones are-
37 yang (cheng man ching version)
36 chen
56 chen
78 sun
24 yang
48 wu
42 and 48 combined taiji
42 sword

unsuccessful ones include-
18 essence chen taiji
32 taiji? chen (the one created by chen xiao wang)
40 yang
48 yang- (the one created by yang zhen dou)
32 sword
12 yang form
numerous other shortend forms people create

as for 56 chen taiji, its actually a pretty interesting form because it combines the lao jia, xin jia, and pao chui into one form. after learning the traditional lao jia and pao chui form chen zhen lei and chen xiao wang, going back to 56 was quite refreshing. its level of difficulty is higher than all the other competition forms and demands alot of understanding of chan ssu ching.

m

[wujimon]

Just curious, as to what you did not like about the 18 chen essence form by CZL? I'm currently learning the traditional yang long set and I do think that it's not as interesting as the 48 combined set. But I guess it keep me interested due to some of the angles and such within the traditional form. But I do miss the 48 combined set and I tend to have to practice that on my own, which is not such a bad thing ;) I've seen the 56 chen competition form but have never done it, nor have I done any chen forms. I do think that the new ones like the 8,10,12,16 forms are just not needed. I think for a beginner, the modern 24 set is nice. I've only had exposure to the modern 24, combined 48 and 32 sword, thought I think the 42 sword is a much nicer form. Below is an interesting article that I've found that talks about the creation of the competition sets.

http://www.taichiproductions.com/articles/display.php?articleid=4

[GLW]

What a lot of misinformation from folks who may have "seen" the competition routines but didn't delve into them.

A brief compendium:

42 Taijiquan - THE compulsory competition routine. It is a combination of Yang, Chen, Sun, and Wu styles with a substrate of 24 Posture Taijiquan to hold it together. It is a decent routine...but 48 posture is better constructed. It is to be done in competition in between 5 and 6 minutes.

Few competition judges know what or how to look for the proper Taijiquan intternal aspects. However, the routine is a tool and if you understand your body and Taijiquan, the routine can be done with good form AND internal aspect.

42 Taijijian - THE compulsory sword routine. It is very well consturcted, has a good level of difficulty and is not a bad set to learn.

Yang - possibly one of the worst of them. It has movements that Classical Yang never saw and does not flow well at all.

Chen - Not bad...more of the new frame - it CAN be doen with classical Chen flavor and internal - but you have to have a decent teacher to understand how first.

Wu - The Wu Jianquan version...not too bad. Better than Yang but not as fluid as the traditional Wu set. If you just learn the routine and not the basics of Wu Style, you will never 'get' it.

Sun - possibly one of the best of them. While Sun Jianyun does NOT like it, it maintains most of the characteristics of Classical Sun style. It is more balanced between right and left sides...somewhat less repitition, and YES...it does have ONE jumping kick...but this is a minor modification because the traditional routine as a step slap kick instead of a jump...not a big deal at all...but flows well.

Wu/Hao - newer one that is not widely known. I have only seen a little of it so can't really comment.

OTher routines may be used but they are not the "Competition" routines. For example, Yang Zhenduo disliked the Competition Yang form so much he created his own. Only those folks competing with his gorup use it.

There are a number of short sets...like Change Manching's but they are not competition sets.

24 and 48 are NOT competition sets...they are Orthodox or Standardized sets. They are decent in their own right. 48 is well put together and is a good exposure for anyone wanting to taste the other styes to decide which one to pursue.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Cheng Man Ching's 37 form is not a competition form though. It is shown in competitions but it was designed for competition purposes, it still to this day remains a substantial form derived from the teachings of his master but augumented and refined for his intent for non competition means.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Many competitions have time limits that preclude complete form demonstrations. What judges look for are the "principles" and not so much the choreography. Many students are faithfully executing what they have been taught without realizing there may be substantial variations in the sequences. Occasionally, there are comps where specific routines are judged (24, 42, etc..), even at these there are variations of movement. It is unlikely that there will emerge a "standard", and personally i hope there doesn't. I would rather spend 4-6 hours judging genuine routines with a "personal flavor" than a text-book form.

Regarding application and internal principles, any judge worth his/her salt will recognize the competitors understanding of applications and principles. It is refreshing to see a Yang competitor coiling and spiraling regardless of the perception that for "points" they should "sanitize" their forms. Too often we see abbreviated forms that are just "too passive".. i would rather see "intent" and a subtle use of DanTien movement than text-book perfection. Variation of speed according to application and a clear focus of the vision are hints of the competitor's understanding of the form.. More than perfect choreography, i reward "feeling/flavor" and a genuine personal expression of the form.. I have seen competitors that have "lost their way" in their form during competitions but recovered with unbelievable grace and "connection".. perhaps an even better signature of truly internalized Tai Chi, not bound by some rehearsed show-piece but fluid and adaptable..

Just another perspective, Be well..

[GLW]

"Many competitions have time limits that preclude complete form demonstrations. "

Typically, in the US, UNLESS you are competing in the 42 Posture Compulsory routine, the time limit for Taijiquan is 3 minutes minimum and 3.5 minutes maximum.

The competition routines that were mentioned in this thread are SPECIFIED for competition and are to be done at 5 minutes minimum and 6 minutes maximum.

These routines ARE Standardized sets and DO have a specific way to do them. They have room for personal flavor but have definite guidelines.

However, after almost 20 years of seeing competitions and judging them, I can tell you that an extremely large number of people that use the argument that Taijiquan of X style can be done many different ways because of different teachers say this because their basics are quite poor.

In most cases, judging Taijiquan is rather painful. The preponderance of competitors have little or no understanding of basic stances, postures, alignment, spirit, ...in short, all of the things that ARE common in ANY Chinese Martial Art.

The level is generally very low.


"What judges look for are the "principles" and not so much the choreography."


Not exactly. You look at Basics for 6 out of 10 points. Intent, internal principles, spirit, understanding of the techniques, etc... for 2 out of 10 points, and flavor,AND Choreography for 2 out of 10 points.

For example, Yang Style takes between 15 and 20 minutes to do the entire routine. You have 3 to 3.5 minutes to perform. You MUST create a shortened form to compete with....

What do you choose to show, what order do you put it in? How do you transition? Did your selections flow and keep the Taijiquan flavor AND the Yang style flow?

All of these things ARE how a judge is supposed to evaluate what you do.

"I would rather spend 4-6 hours judging genuine routines with a "personal flavor" than a text-book form."

Done both. Hours judging weird variations is equally painful. I prefer seeing good basics and structure.


"Regarding application and internal principles, any judge worth his/her salt will recognize the competitors understanding of applications and principles."

In principle, I agree. However, in practice, most of those that think they ARE "worth their salt" are very poor at executing the job of judge. I had one VERY well know Taijiquan competitor at one International competition tell me how great they thought the IWuF international competitors were at displaying the internal aspects in 42 Taijiquan. The ones we were watching were showing strong basics...but NOT correct Taijiquan principles. There was NOT the idea of the unbroken thread in ANY section. They STOPPED movements instead of completing them. Hearing this, I was doubtful of that person's ability to ever be a decent judge.





"Variation of speed according to application and a clear focus of the vision are hints of the competitor's understanding of the form.. "

Depends upon the style being shown. Sun - definitely...same for chen... Wu - only for the fast set. Yang...from folks like Fu zhongwen, Yang Zhenduo, and others, speed changes are not desired.

"More than perfect choreography, i reward "feeling/flavor" and a genuine personal expression of the form.. I have seen competitors that have "lost their way" in their form during competitions but recovered with unbelievable grace and "connection".. perhaps an even better signature of truly internalized Tai Chi, not bound by some rehearsed show-piece but fluid and adaptable.."

Examine the judging guidelines used by the USWU. The flavoring you mention is worht 2 out of 10 points. First comes basics and technical merit. There has to be a standard way of judging.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


However, after almost 20 years of seeing competitions and judging them, I can tell you that an extremely large number of people that use the argument that Taijiquan of X style can be done many different ways because of different teachers say this because their basics are quite poor.

Perhaps, that is a simple observation born of as many years watching, performing and judging.. that is not a blessing on variations or deviations from the structure of a style, rather it is recognition of the unwary student's faithful execution of what he/she was taught.. It is quite a leap of logic to equate a simple observation to poor basics.. but, that may be just a signature of the quarrelsome nature inherent to these forums.. and a sad commentary of someone claiming to be a judge, assuming someone's basics are poor based on words in a forum..




"I would rather spend 4-6 hours judging genuine routines with a "personal flavor" than a text-book form."
Done both. Hours judging weird variations is equally painful. I prefer seeing good basics and structure.

Again, the original statement doesn't imply "weird variations", it means what it says "personal flavor".. personal flavors are the subtle nuances that account for individuality, that express a truly internalized understanding of the Art while adhering to sound principle and basics, had i intended to imply "weird variations" it would have been clear.. again, another leap of logic.. by the way, i agree, watching weird variations for 6 hours can be exhausting and painful..

I don't know who you are, or what your credentials are, but i am dismayed at your dismal pronouncements of the general state of judging and performance.. it seems that too many of the players today look for the negative in our Art, illuminate it, and imply their own superiority over it.. too few see the positive, see the potential and are willing to let their own egos admit that someone else might have a valid perspective..

Be well.. be real..

[Laughing Cow]

Hi.

Here are some thoughts.

IMO, besides the competition forms you will find very little standardised ways of doing a specific form.

Even if you look within one style(maybe even Kwoon) alone you will find variations on how the forms are executed.

My Sifu and his Brother execute the same form very differently.

I also found that the way the form is executed depends on the practicioners skill level and understanding of the TJQ principles.

Just some thoughts.

[GLW]

Bob

“Perhaps, that is a simple observation born of as many years watching, performing and judging.. that is not a blessing on variations or deviations from the structure of a style, rather it is recognition of the unwary student's faithful execution of what he/she was taught.. It is quite a leap of logic to equate a simple observation to poor basics.. but, that may be just a signature of the quarrelsome nature inherent to these forums.. and a sad commentary of someone claiming to be a judge, assuming someone's basics are poor based on words in a forum..”

You may misunderstand me. I was NOT implying anything about YOUR basics. I was stating that in many competitions, the competitors and teachers that mention about how there are all of these major variations are often the ones with the worst basics. If I led you to infer I was aiming at you…not my intent.

“I don't know who you are, or what your credentials are, but i am dismayed at your dismal pronouncements of the general state of judging and performance.. it seems that too many of the players today look for the negative in our Art, illuminate it, and imply their own superiority over it.. too few see the positive, see the potential and are willing to let their own egos admit that someone else might have a valid perspective..”

My dismal pronouncement of the state of judging comes from : being the technical director of the first Chinese Martial Arts only competition in the US (1986 if memory serves). Having worked in every capacity of competitions from timer, scorekeeper, judge, head judge for divisions, and having helped write and revise and revise and revise the rules used in the US for such competitions.

The biggest problem with ALL of the competitions is NOT the competitors but the low level of the judges. That is NOT their martial level but their ability to JUDGE. They do not read or know the rules. They do not follow a set method of judging and often they can’t justify their scores when pressed to do so.

The things that most competitors remember about a competition are : Was it organized – begin/end/run on time and Was the judging fair and consistent.

Having worked for judges training for a good while, I can tell you that it IS a skill that must be developed. It requires training. A good competitor or a good teacher may not be a good judge.

I was listing the 10 point scale and how the points are awarded. 6 – technical, 2 martial awareness (for external – this is speed and power for internal – sense of movement purpose and internal work,), and 2 for flavor and impression.

The biggest part of the score is technical – the HOW of what was shown. This is basics driven. The last 2 points is what you are mentioning. I can tell you that the better the basics and technical score of a person, in general, the higher their other areas score is as well. You can’t exhibit much flavor if you are fighting your body or not understanding what you are trying to do.

But, the awareness and flavor are what determine who gets first place and who comes in 3rd.

As for the variations, I can tell you that I have judged in events and seen people come out and do a slow 5 animal type of form…and claim it was Yang style. I have seen Yang style people doing their routine with Chen style flavor. If this is what they want to do, they should do it in Other style Taijiquan. I have seen competitors that come out and spend 2 minutes doing Qi Gong before they start – and then getting upset when you deduct for going overtime. I have seen limp and spiritless Taijiquan, bad posture, and no connection of the body…. And then had these people complain that ALL of the judges that gave them a bad score didn’t know what they were doing.

So, I MAY have misinterpreted your statements about what you look for. Seems you definitely misinterpreted mine. They are born of many years of seeing bad Taijiquan…so bad that you wouldn’t know if you should laugh or be upset….

[GLW]

Laughing Cow,

that is one of the great things about it all. There ARE a set of standards and methods. But, they are broad enough that they allow for the individual to let their body and personality come out.

It is one of the joys of watching and learning when you see this personality emerge.

Sort of like my learning process. I spent the first 10 years or so trying to look exactly like my teacher.

Then I realized that if I followed their ideas exactly and their guidelines, that it would become natural and a part of me. At that point, my teachers began to state that I was 'understanding'

Then, when I started teaching, I began to see it from their side...and longing to see the same level of understanding begin to emerge from my students....and realizing exactly how long such things take and that the patience required of the student is surely equal to that required of the teacher.

[wujimon]

That's an interesting notion of "not trying to copy" the instructor but to try and understand the principle and idea behind the movement and "make it your own" while still adhering to the principles. My teachers told me that I had to try and internalize the ideas and think about the principles and that's what's most important. I think I've let some of his words slip my mind and I thank everyone here for bringing the idea back into my mind.

w.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thank you for the clarifications, and i agree.. Indeed, i too misunderstood your original post, humble apologies offered..

It seems that we are moving in a positive direction, here.. through a misunderstanding several good concepts have surfaced and we have been able to resolve differences of perspective through cooperative dialogue.. This is what i have hoped for in a forum of this nature.. Many thanks to those willing to reach-out and work toward unity rather than chaos (not that chaos is always a negative concept :) ).. The imperative for me is to promote the Internal Arts in a positive and educational manner.

As GLW pointed-out, first, the judges should evaluate adherence to the form being judged (Yang, Chen, Bagua, etc...), then principles as that form interprets them (actually, the judge should always be considering principles but, different forms express principles in a slightly different manner).. and, finally, all things being equal, flavor, understanding of application, demonstration of internal concepts, and the awareness/intention factor seperate the placers from the crowd..

Personally, each competitor begins with a perfect score, 1/10th of a point or multiples thereof are deducted for each misunderstanding of the form they are demonstrating.. i try to account for nervousness as not all players are comfortable in the role as "performer".. usually, the principles shine past the nervousness.. But, i do generally follow GLW's guidelines when adjusting scores..

Thanks all.. Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I hope to see everyone at Nick Scrima's tournement March 28 & 29..

Be well..

[GLW]

Bob,

I actually DO begin each person with a perfect score..it totals to 10...but is made up of a 6 + 2 + 2...

I then start evaluating from the moment the competitor's foot crosses into the ring - even before they find their starting point.

If they walk in tentative or with bad attitude or posture, or any number of other "impression" things, they losse a bit in that area.

Then they start and I look for attaboys as well as errors.

I don't stop the evaluation until they finish with their stepping back to receive score.

Generally, I will have a score range pretty soon...and it gets firmer as the routine progresses. However, I can think of many instances were a competitor had a score of ...oh say 8.5 in my mind. As they continued, they made a mistake...and so they dropped down. It is VERY difficult to raise up since it is based upon deductions from ideal...starting with the assumption that you ARE ideal until you display otherwise.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Fair and objective, GLW.. and consistent, i like it.. I am considering the approach to start evaluation you mentioned.. i like the logic but question the fairness.. although the competitors should present themselves appropriately at all times, they should probably be informed that the approach is a consideration in scoring as well as the form itself.. As well as myself, i know others that sometimes use humor or an overly relaxed approach to the start line to offset nervousness.. Performing under the scrutiny of people you respect is a burden with which many of us struggle..

Be well..

[GLW]

I know where you are coming from.

When I am doing the head judge, should any competitor ask, I would tell them that they are observed from the time the judge sees them.

I tell my students the same thing.

I also tell them to NEVER practice more than a few parts of their routine in sight of others before competing (that is with full detail). It is ON to walk through the form but NOT with full spirit and such.

I personally had to learn this the hard way. I was competing in San Francisco a number of years ago. Before the competition, I went out to the park across from the Holiday Inn hotel in Chinatown and practiced. There were a couple of out of town judges - one of whom I knew, there. I did not notice them too much.

Later I competed and they BOTH scored me down. One actually had the nerve to tell me how I had done my routine better in the park that morning.

First it was his bad...he should NEVER remember seeing a competitor or a routine before except for what is shown at the time of competing. To admit such a thing totally invalidated him as a fair judge.

Second, my bad...I should never have lessened my element of newness by showing either judge anything of my abilities. If they see it more than once, they have ideas as to where to look for mistakes.

I began to note after that how competitors that walked out with spirit and confidence almost always got better scores than those that did not - even if what they did was identical or even better. This was because it was only human nature to form an opinion of a competitor from the first thing you see. There is even a fancy term in psychology - Primacy / Recency that states that you remember mst what you see first and what you see last...

So, it is important as a competitor to make sure that the first things a judge sees reflect well on you... and also the last things.... And if you MUST make mistakes, do it in the middle where they will not be as well remembered.

Competing is just as much about the principles of what you are doing as it is about the psychology of competition.