The hook

[red5angel]

how is the hook delivered, what is it's proper form?

[Royal Dragon]

Generally you put a worm on the hook, and cast it out into the water. then you sit back and slamm beers till the fish gets hooked, and gives the line a little tug.

[Golden Arms]

I would like to add to this post the following question. How do you PERSONALLY defend against the hook? ie: what is your interpretation of your art's ways of handling a powerful hooking punch?

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, if I was a fish, I'd swim deep during the wee hours of the moring, and early evenings.

I would look for signs of man, and only eat when they are not around. :D

[dnc101]

It depends on your style, of course. In its' simplest form the hook is delivered with the arm bent at delivery and the shoulder leading. But it can get a little more complex (otherwise, it wouldn't be martial arts, right?). It can be delivered in any plane to any target. This includes overhead, and I suppose an uppercut could be considered an upward hook. It can also be used at any striking distance, including strikes to his face when you are nose to nose.

The sneakiest way to throw a hook is to initiate the punch as a straight punch with the fist palm up, then hook it around his guard or block as you bend the elbow and turn the fist so knuckles face you.

If you really want to get technical, Black Belt Magazine just had an article about the hook. They get into stuff like targeting and whether to have your heel up or down to create positive or negative energy. You can check it out if you are interested, but I'm not really qualified to go into that much depth on this topic.

The best defense is to move. You can't allways determine what is being thrown in time to get up a good defense, even if fighting spontaneously. And the hook is designed to get around your defense. Move the target as you deploy the defense, which ideally is or includes a counter strike.

[Souljah]

how is the hook delivered, what is it's proper form?
For me....
Arm bent , usually horizontal at shoulder height (unless doing shovel hooks and stuff).
elbow should usually be at a/or close to a right-angle when it lands (but this varies)
When using the body too, I turn on 3 points - toe, hip and shoulder.

this is just my interpretation from the way I've learnt it though.

does this help? - was wondering if its too brief a description...

[SevenStar]

Don't forget the actual delivery of the hook. you do not draw the hand back. Also, you do not over exaggerate the arc of the punch nor do you shoot it way out past your face, as if you are trying to drive through your opponent with it. The hook is not a power punch. it should not extend past your nose, and your arm you not angle too far past 90 degrees.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
I would like to add to this post the following question. How do you PERSONALLY defend against the hook? ie: what is your interpretation of your art's ways of handling a powerful hooking punch?

slip and cover. The hook should be fast, and generally comes with a flurry of other punches, so you may not have time for much else. if the arc is too wide, stop the punch before it starts - attack the shoulder.

[yenhoi]

Defense vs hook - throw a hook!

:eek:

Everything else depends on everything else. Keep you guard up red5, and keep your eyes on the opponent.

Rear hooks have an extra mechanic and can be even tighter then lead hooks, but are so much harder to do.

:eek:

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by SevenStar


slip and cover. The hook should be fast, and generally comes with a flurry of other punches, so you may not have time for much else. if the arc is too wide, stop the punch before it starts - attack the shoulder.

Ususally it comes with a flurry of punches, but every once in a while you see someone lead with it. not often, but sometimes, and usually by a guy with incredible handspeed.

[SevenStar]

agreed. That's why I said "generally comes with a flurry of other punches"

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by SevenStar
agreed. That's why I said "generally comes with a flurry of other punches"

Sorry about the repetition, Seven, I didn't mean to belabor the obvious. it's just that I've got a former sparring partner who loved to rock me with a lead hook so, it's kinda like my own personal crusade, ya know? :D

yenhoi-

can you elaborate a little further? I was always taught to slip or duck the hook, but to be honest, I'd rather counter punch any day, so I'd like to hear how you throw the hook to counter a hook.

[yenhoi]

When someone is "hitting" you with a lead hook, they are open for a lead hook! (Orthodox boxing stance vs orthodox.) Modify as necessary for other stances.

:eek:

Alot of people telegraph their lead hook a mile away, unless like some other people said, he has really fast hands

[yenhoi]

If your explosive about it you can also use the body mechanics of the hook to "shear" whatever lead energy (lead punch, like a hook) from your opponent. Like a really advanced shoulder roll.

:cool:

[red5angel]

yenhoi, whats a shoulder roll?

[MightyB]

...everything you need to know:

Technical Knowledge: The proper description of the "hook". (http://www.ringside.com/archives/tko/hook.htm)

[ShaolinTiger00]

As many have said leading with a hook is not a good idea. It is easily recognized and countered.
Someone mentioned throw it in "flurries" and I think they are using that word in the wrong context, although I understood what they meant. They meant that a hook should be used in combinations with other punches. (ex. l jab, r cross, l hook) (l jab, r uppercut, l hook). again see how important the jab is as it sets up practically every combination. it puts the opponent on the defensive/reaction and he must make a desicsion to either move or counter.
A "flurry" happens when you have an opponent on the proverbial "ropes" and begin to bang away, completely dropping your defense and just pummeling him in hopes of pugilistic submission.
Also it was said that a hook isn't a power punch, (shame on you Sevenstar..)and that is definately not true. In fact more KO's occur from a hook than any other punch! Anyone who's caught a hook to the body can attest as well. The lead hook and lead uppercut is the way that the lead hands gets power. -thru circular movement. Key here is to not over extend! It's the body's trunk that generates the power combined with the resistance of your foot pushing away from the floor, not the arm. You'll lose all the power.

Delivery: Mr. Guarardo said it best:
Dip the right knee slightly and square your hips toward the opponent. Transfer your weight to the ball of your left (front) foot as you begin the pivot and throw the punch. As the pivot is continued, rotate your hips and shoulders from square to sideways toward the opponent. The pivot and rotation in this stage of the punch generates significant power. Once extended, the arm should be parallel to the floor, with the elbow bent at a ninety-degree angle. Be sure to keep your chin "tucked" throughout the punching process. Once the punch is completed, quickly return to the basic boxing stance.

*edit. I see MightyB has put my links to good use! *

[yenhoi]

Shoulder roll is when you 'roll' your entire arm over including the shoulder (low bong sau!) to deflect a cross that happens to be hitting you.

rear hand has to monitor both opponents hands, usually pops up infront of face to catch anything the shoulder roll misses , but you always have to watch out for those fast mo-fos.

of course there is hip and foot work involved, ask someone at your gym, Im sure most people can at least "show" a shoulder roll. application vs a real cross is a totally different matter, not to mention the hooks and shovel hooks and uppercuts that follow crosses.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

...and you deflect with the upper ball portion of your shoulder as it rolls....

thats an important part.. :D

[MightyB]

I was on the mailing list and a customer of Ringside well before I noticed you on KFO. I'm also like Titleboxing.com, Fairtexgear.com, Fightgear.com, Kwon, wle.com, IronMind.com, Centuryfitness.com, Bud K worldwide, AWMA, and on and on and on. You're not the only one who does SanShou or is well aware of the MMA online community. ;) You could also look at the Liu Institute (http://www.liuinstitute.com/) to see some seriously cool San Shou stuff.

I think that it was IronFist that originally gave me the link. I'd say that they have the best prices for competitive SanShou gear (no offense Gene), and it's a great site with lots of info to take in.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Amazing Irony.

I just got off the phone w/ Shawn Liu like 10 minutes ago!

He's been my friend and occasional coach for more than 7 years now.

and I was joking about the link..

[MightyB]

For those of you who don't know, Shawn Liu is a great living example of how to correctly do TCMA.

[SevenStar]

The hook does indeed result in many KOs, but it's not a power shot. It's the effect it has on someone that causes the KO. Overhand, straight right, bolo punch, etc. those are all power shots.

[dnc101]

MB- good link. That was a good article on the hook. I'd only change one thing:

"The hook shouldn't be thrown indiscriminately. Use other punches to set it up so that your "distance" is correct. You don't want to throw it from too far out, which dramatically lowers the chance of it connecting and opens you up for a counter. From too close, the punch will likely miss its mark and fall behind your opponent's head.

As a boxer throws the hook, this is true. But a martial artist should be able to throw it right in front of his own face. The boxer depends on rolling his weight/ mass forward onto his lead foot and torqueing his body to generate power and bring his mass into allignment. He can't do that if the punch is too close in.

Most martial artists use a more upright posture than a boxer. A stance chang provides the torque we need. It also changes the angular relationship between you and your opponent. And, because of the close in, structurally strong angle your arm is deployed at your body mass adds power even though it is leading (in front of) the punch. This not only allows the punch to be deployed extremely close, but it is quicker. It also travels in a partial zone of obscurity and comes from a completely unexpected direction.

Try this: Take a fighting stance, left foot lead. Make a knife/ridge hand with your left hand. Place it in front of your face at 90', index finger touching your nose. Your right hand is in a guard or check position. As you pivot your stance to your left, and without chambering or any other extraneous movement, bring your right fist up and turn the knuckles toward your face. You should be able to punch your left hand, the first two knuckles of the right striking your left index finger, without hitting your nose.

[ShaolinTiger00]

dnc - the boxer was assuming that you were using a left hook (lead) and that your right was close enough to guard.
Your example was a right hook from the rear (formerly defending) hand.

If my hook went behind his neck, that would be fine with me, I want that control on his neck for many of my throws!

as you & I both said, boxers would have to modify there skills to fight a larger skill set w. kicking knees, elbows, throwing invloved in the standup world.

[fa_jing]

Hey how about some pointers on the left (lead) hook to the body??
:)

[dnc101]

Actually, throwing the hook from the lead hand is faster. Say you want to slip a straight right to your face while in a left lead stance, just pivot your stance and throw the left hook from point of origin. It won't have as much power, but it will get a reaction. He'll probably move his head and it may bring his guard up. You've taken his initiative and set him up for a low strike with your right. Also, that hook can be converted to several other strikes or manipulations. Which gets me to...,

ST, good point about converting the missed punch to a manipulation.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Hey how about some pointers on the left (lead) hook to the body??

counter punching: after you've sliped to the outside (your right) of a cross let it fly! same with right hook - slip outside if he jabs, slip inside if the cross follows and R Hook to the bread basket!

Offensive: mixing it up w/ combos l jab, r cross, l hook (body), r cross

and good to throw after a stunning uppercut as his chin won't be tucked.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Seven*,

Talked to the best boxing coach I know last night and asked him. He said that "officially" (just old school trainers info I guess) power punches only come from the rear hand but its well recognized that a hook is indeed a powererful punch because of the torque of the body and many boxers have a more powerful l hook than a r cross.

just because I had to know... you win on a technicality!