Surely there is something...?

[straight blast]

Is there an official format for free fighting (UFC style rules) with no grappling? Stand up fighting with throwing only? Not San Shou which if I remember correctly has gloves, but proper no rules bareknuckle.

I read a lot of stuff about how CMA would stand up against MMA if the grappling was taken out of it...has this happened? If not why not?

Can somebody give me a website if there is one?

[yenhoi]

Why would you take grappling out of it? What when they go to the floor the ref stops the match and starts them standing again?

I think they call what your talking about Thai-boxing.

Thats a pretty *****-ass thing. "Lets see how you guys do versus us if we eliminate an entire range of fighting! What now eh?"

:rolleyes:

[shaolin kungfu]

I don't think it's the grappling that many cma practitioners complain about, but the restrictions. The fact that much of what cma focuses on is not allowed in the ring. Eye gouges, throat strikes, breaking and dislocating of limbs and joints, pressure points and various chin na moves, are all illegal in competition fighting(for a good reason). This would eliminate over half of what a cma practitionor trains to do. It would be like telling a muay thai fighter that he could only use his hands, and then putting him against a boxer who has spent much more time focusing just on his hands. That said, Kung fu could use a little more ground work.

[Royal Dragon]

I think Kou Shou comes pretty close. You have to have gear, but you can use open fingered gloves. Restrictions are throat, back of head, groin and no gouging. I'm pretty sure all else is legal (Except ground fighting). the only problem, there are no professional levels.

Personally, I would like to see a Pro version of Kuo Shou with the same rules, only ground and pound would be legal (As typical Chinese finishing techniques), and as bare knuckle events with only cup and mouth piece for protection. The problem is real traditional Kung Fu ustalises some very brutal grond fighting, consisting of full weight knee drops on the weakest parts of the ribcage and throat areas. Many of the throws set up for these brutal finishes. MMA is considerable more "Civilised" with it's submission methods.

I might also require some light MMA style grappeling gloves due to the high number of CMA's that do Iron Hand (to prevent injuries), but that is about it. I think you could see some really traditional fighting that way, in an event that would rival UFC style fighting in skill and reality.

[shaolin kungfu]

That's a good idea. maybe you could set up some kuo shou events where you live.

[SevenStar]

There are combat shuai chiao competitions - they can punch, kicn and throw, but they wear protection.

(any one notice that combatshuaichiao.com has a link to bjj.org in its links section?)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
I don't think it's the grappling that many cma practitioners complain about, but the restrictions. The fact that much of what cma focuses on is not allowed in the ring. Eye gouges, throat strikes, breaking and dislocating of limbs and joints, pressure points and various chin na moves, are all illegal in competition fighting(for a good reason). This would eliminate over half of what a cma practitionor trains to do. It would be like telling a muay thai fighter that he could only use his hands, and then putting him against a boxer who has spent much more time focusing just on his hands. That said, Kung fu could use a little more ground work.

If you can break, you can lock. grappling has plenty of locking. eye gouges and throat strikes? Oh, c'mon... (hides dead horse so that nobody beats it)

[shaolin kungfu]

A break can occur when you strike a vulnerable area (such as a knee cap), and does not have to come from a lock. So, no, being able to break a bone does not necassarily mean you can get the other person into a lock( though locks are taught in most tma styles).

Someone will eventually find that horse, and realize that it needs a beating.

[taijiquan_student]

Good lord, not this again. Please...no more...

We should just have one big thread (hell, just have a separate forum) where everyone can go and argue about being too deadly for the ring, and how forms are pointless, and about how monkey paws are silly, and not take up all this space. It seems like every on-topic thread just turns into the same dam.n thing.

[SevenStar]

Welcome to KFO :D

[shaolin kungfu]

I agree with taijiqaun. Instead of fighting over whose style would beat whose, we should work together to promote martial arts. All styles have good things to offer, and maybe if there wasn't so much bickering, people would see that. I am ashamed that I contributed to the rift between tma and mma. I am willing to drop the subject, if seven star will do the same. Then maybe this thread can get back to it's original purpose.

[KnightSabre]

LMFAO

I love this place :)

[Merryprankster]

Here are the official Pride rules.

Article 8
The following actions are deemed to be illegal. A fighter who commits these illegal actions hall be given a caution by the referee and such illegal action shall be a negative factor for decision. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter shall be fined 10% of the fighting fee per caution payable to DSE.

Biting
Eye thumbing and eye gouging
Head butting
Attacking the groin
Pulling Hair
Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
Escaping to the outside of the ring
Throwing the opponent outside the ring
Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.


Now, in the UFC, ELBOWS to the head are legal, but knees on the ground are not.

There is not one thing in there against your precious "joint breaks and dislocations," "chin na," or pressure points. You wanna kick a knee cap or go for vital point liver #367, be my guest.

If the prohibition of throat attacks and eye-gouging seriously affects what you do, then you're short on basic fighting skills.

I suppose the restriction on biting is what really irks people though, huh? :rolleyes:

So, somebody tell me why Pride rules are too restrictive? Are they more restrictive than the rules you TRAIN with? Stick your finger a few knuckles deep in your partners eye and see how they react. Hmmmmm.....

[shaolin kungfu]

My original post was not me complaining about the restrictions, it was me pointing out that most cma practitioners complain about restrictions more than they do about grappling. I think that is a fairly accurate statement. I spar people in other style with rules similar to these and have no problem abiding by them. Again, I did not intend to say that these rules are to restrictive, I was trying to tell straight blast that most cma practitioners didn't view the grappling as a problem( and if they did, they should train to be able to deal with it). Read a little closer before you jump down my throat.

[Merryprankster]

Um. Ok. :D

*Runs off embarressed... hides in bushes.*

[Xebsball]

Im ok with sanshou rules, exepct for the gloves. I really hate boxing gloves, i hold deep hatred for boxing gloves. Everytime i see a boxing glove i feel like punching it and then ****ing on it.

If they used mma gloves it would so much cooler AND you could use VERTICAL FISTS much much better -> closer to the bare knucle days of boxing AND you could grab better to set up throws and takedowns.

AND i think they could let using knees and elbows too, even if they had to use that wussy pad for elbows.

[apoweyn]

Read a little closer before you jump down my throat.

now, i'm pretty certain that jumping down people's throats is an illegal technique. far too deadly.

:)

(just taking the mickey. for god's sake, nobody get bent out of shape.)


stuart b.

[MightyB]

Look for Shidokan affiliated school tournaments. The major Shidokan competition in Chicago is the "Iron Man" competition in martial arts in that you have to fight bare knuckle, thai rules, and submission wrestling to win.

Some shidokan affiliated schools have smaller competitions where you fight bare knuckle, the only rule is that you can't punch the face. You can knee the head, you can kick the head, and you can kick and knee the legs, but you can't punch the face. This is very much like Kyukushin tournaments. I'm not sure about take-downs in the bare-knuckle event.

And yes, it's an open event. They will allow the too deadly kung fuers in. Cung Le fought in a couple.

[taijiquan_student]

I agree with Merryprankster that if all you can't fight without eye-gouges and biting then you're short on basic fighting skills. But, the rules for that shidokan tournament? I don't know about other people, but not being allowed to strike to the face would seriously hinder me. And, though I hate to use the same argument some people use against Pride and UFC, not being able to strike the face is just not realistic at all. People are gonna hit you in the face. My palm strike to the heart is not quite strong enough to cause the heart to flutter/stop and drop somebody yet, though if it was, that shidokan thing would sound much better.

The "Iron Man" event allows striking to the face right?

[Royal Dragon]

Whch event was it that dissallowed a standing fighter to strike a downed opponennt?? I remember seeing that once in a fight. A grappeler actualy just layed down and waited because the rules forbad striking him wile he was down. It force the stand up fighter to lay down and grapple. I though that was bogus.

[MightyB]

It's 9 rounds.

The first 3 are bare-knuckle, those are the ones where you can't hand strike the face. You can knee or kick them in the head, but you can't punch them in the face.

The next 3 rounds are thai style rules, but, I think they allow throws. You can punch in the face.

The last 3 are submission wrestling, I'm not sure what the rules are in those rounds.

Read it for yourself. (http://www.shidokan.com/)

[straight blast]

Why would you take grappling out of it? What when they go to the floor the ref stops the match and starts them standing again?


I think they call what your talking about Thai-boxing.


Thats a pretty *****-ass thing. "Lets see how you guys do versus us if we eliminate an entire range of fighting! What now eh?"

Thanks for missing the entire point of my post. If it wasn't so effortless I'd think it was deliberate.

I know what Thai Boxing is. I have trained in Thai Boxing and it looks sh!t all like Kung Fu. The reason I would like to see no grappling is I would like to see just pure stand up fighting. I am a big UFC fan but I get sick of the same old takedown and grapple.

I fail to see why there is no rules fighting but no true no rules bareknuckle stand up. I'll gladly try my Kung Fu in a stand up match, but I know that my skill isn't enough to stop a determined grappler taking me down. So by Yenhoi's logic my choices would be to either fight under Thai Rules (KF out the window) or UFC style and hope I didn't draw a grappler.

Is that any clearer?

[Oso]

Seven, a horse is just too big to hide.

you have to cut it into little pieces first.

:D

[Cheese Dog]

Cheese Dog carts out the dead horse, hands out beatin' sticks to all.

You know you want to. :D