History Question...

[Genesis]

This is a pretty simple question,

Everyone goes on about Yip Man, and that my teacher is better than yours because he was taught by Yip Man, or one of his students. Who taught Yip Man? What happened to Yip Man's fellow students? It just seems really strange to me.

Basic question, what happened to everyone else of Yip Man's generation, and why is he praised so highly above everyone else?

Thanks in advance,

[t_niehoff]

Genesis writes:

This is a pretty simple question, G

OK, then I might be able to tackle it. TN

Everyone goes on about Yip Man, G

Everyone? TN

and that my teacher is better than yours because he was taught by Yip Man, or one of his students G

Lots of people IMO with no real skill rely on their associations to make $ "teaching" WCK. Nevertheless, to learn anything, we need to study from someone who has previously learned it from a reputable source. Yip Man was the first to publically (to the general public) teach WCK, and many studied from him (which goes from having lots of contact with him and learning directly to going to his kwoon and never having touched his hands but getting instruction from mostly seniors and fellow students). In the end, an instructor of WCK should have a verifiable lineage (to prove access to the information) and demonstrable skill against real resistance (to prove that they know what they are talking about). TN

Who taught Yip Man? G

Read Yip Man's "history of WCK" (available all over the web). TN

What happened to Yip Man's fellow students? G

Some died, never having taught; others were killed during the Cultural Revolution (where MAists were routinely hunted down); some opened kwoons and taught. TN

It just seems really strange to me. G

Why? BTW, Yip Man isn't the only lineage of WCK (see wingchunkuen.com). TN

Basic question, what happened to everyone else of Yip Man's generation, and why is he praised so highly above everyone else? G

He should IMO be praised for bringing WCK to the public (most of us wouldn't be practicing WCK but for him), and recognized for the high level of skill that he apparently had (according to various accounts). There are others, however, like the recently deceased Sum Nung, who was of the same generation as Yip, had legendary skills, etc. We should cherish these guys . . . we wouldn't be here and doing what we are doing without them. TN

Terence

[Xiao3 Meng4]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by t_niehoff

Nevertheless, to learn anything, we need to study from someone who has previously learned it from a reputable source. TN

Agreed. I just wanted to add that a reputable source doesn't necessarily have to be an official instructor with set classes, or even a person for that matter; real experience is a very vast and reputable source. It is the root of all sources, including instructors. :) XM

Yip Man was the first to publically (to the general public) teach WCK, and many studied from him (which goes from having lots of contact with him and learning directly to going to his kwoon and never having touched his hands but getting instruction from mostly seniors and fellow students). TN

I wonder, is the completeness of one's training in a particular system affected by the number of students an instructor is dealing with? Less students means more personal instruction, but less brains to ask useful questions or to investigate energies with. More students means less personal instruction, but more perspectives and energies to play with.

Does one have an advantage over the other? If so, how? XM


In the end, an instructor of WCK should have a verifiable lineage (to prove access to the information) and demonstrable skill against real resistance (to prove that they know what they are talking about). TN

What if one does not have a verifiable lineage, but practices the forms, principles, and methodologies of Wing Chun? Is one still practicing Wing Chun? If someone in this situation were to pass one their knowledge, would the system be called Wing Chun, or would it be their own personal system?

IMO, Wing Chun is more than just the name of a martial system. The phrase itself has meaning (I'm referring to the "Always Spring" translation.)

By looking at the characters, we see that Wing can mean Perpetually, forever, and always. Chun can mean spring, life, vitality, and love.

In the Chinese system of correspondences, Spring corresponds to the energetic phase of wood. The energetic of wood is directed growth. It symbolizes a line of intent (branches grow towards the sun, roots grow into the earth.) Therefore, Wing Chun carries the meaning of a perpetual line of intent.

What does this mean?

Part of the answer lies in five element theory, or five phase theory. The generative cycle of the five phase theory reveals that wood is the mother of fire; fie pertains to relaxation, so a line of intent ultimately relaxes.
The naturally restraining cycle of the five phase theory reveals that wood naturally restrains earth; earth pertains to harmony, so a line of intent naturally seeks to sustain and restore harmony.
(natural restraint: keeping a child from harm but not stifling or controlling it.)

The purpose of Wing Chun, then, is to perpetually produce relaxation and support harmony.

Another aspect of the name lies in the correspondence of the five phases in relation to the 5 spirits of the body. Wood is related to the Hun, which is one’s innate aspiration. Perpetual Hun implies perpetually acting on one’s innate aspiration – to achieve relaxation and support harmony.

Yet a third aspect of the name can be found in the correspondence of spring to life. Perpetual life obviously alludes to immortality; the idea that practising the art can lead to enlightenment and immortality.

Fourth, perpetual vitality suggests that relaxation and harmony be continuously tended to and nourished. Living harmoniously with reality at all times means living in the moment at all times. If one is not rooted in the moment, how can one maintain harmony with reality?

Perpetual love relates the same meaning – to be present, aware, and connected to every aspect of reality.

Although every iteration of Wing Chun's definition adopts a different perspective, one can see that their focus is the same throughout. An understanding of the Chinese system of correspondences merely relates these different perspectives through their fundamental energetic patterns.

My main reason for ranting slightly is due to the fact that I trained under a Yip Man branch, which taught Wing Chun "Praise Spring," and the club I'm at now uses the same terminology. When I see the two variations, though, and think about the volumes of knowledge and lifetimes of experience that went into the development of the system, (2500 years of Chinese natural Science,) "Praise Spring" seems to convey only a shadow of the meaning of "Always Spring," and seems an ill match with a system so rich in potential. "Always Spring" presents to us a profound, natural foundation on which to build our system.

By no means do I wish to imply that the system known as "Praise Spring" is inneffective or corrupt: Someone had written that the name had been changed during the time of the Qing dynasty to protect the practitioners (maybe it was Mr. Ritchie?) A name change doesn't necessarily diminish the effectiveness of a system, but it may change the intention of a system. Take the instructions label off of mining explosives, and people may use it in a way other than what was originally intended. It doesn't mean that the explosive will be any less effective in completing its task (which is simply to explode.)

Perhaps someone could discuss "Praise Spring" and its implication as the root meaning of the system? (And what about Weng Chun? I thought I saw something about that on here, too, and know little about it. What are the characters? What does it mean? XM

He should IMO be praised for bringing WCK to the public (most of us wouldn't be practicing WCK but for him), and recognized for the high level of skill that he apparently had (according to various accounts). There are others, however, like the recently deceased Sum Nung, who was of the same generation as Yip, had legendary skills, etc. We should cherish these guys . . . we wouldn't be here and doing what we are doing without them. TN

(Applause.) XM

Do not seek to attain the greatness of others: instead, seek what they sought. - Basho

[[Censored]]

Fascinating!

But you must be wrong because Wing Chun is kuen faat ONLY! :rolleyes: :D

[Genesis]

Thanks guys for taking the time out to explain this all to me. It is making for interesting reading :)

[yuanfen]

XM- I have always like the "Always Spring" analogy- without going far afield with Buddhist-Taoist or Sino-Indian distinctions-
always spring, young forest and other terms have their sympathetic parallels in very early Buddhism.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Originally posted by [Censored]

But you must be wrong because Wing Chun is kuen faat ONLY! :rolleyes: :D [/B]

Really? Darnit, now I'll have to remove those baat jaam dao grafts I had put in. ;)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Originally posted by yuanfen
XM- I have always like the "Always Spring" analogy- without going far afield with Buddhist-Taoist or Sino-Indian distinctions-
always spring, young forest and other terms have their sympathetic parallels in very early Buddhism.

Buddhism, Taoism and the Moslem world view have all influenced the Chinese martial arts. Xing Yi was refined during the Moslem rebellion, Shaolin blossomed from its paradigm, and Taiji/Bagua evolved in a Taoist universe.

What universe did Wing Chun evolve in? What was its Yuan Qi?
Most everyone agrees that Wing Chun came from Shaolin. Ok, which part of Shaolin? Was it the cooks that developed the art? The musicians? The warriors? The scholars? The doctors?

Whichever group it was, I'm fairly sure that they were doctors as well, for they had an intimate understanding of the Chinese natural Sciences... contained within the first form are the fundamental principles of the classical chinese worldview; harmonizing theory, Yin-Yang, Jing Qi, and Shen, Wu Xing (five phase theory), meridian theory, and probably a bunch of others that I haven't understood quite yet.

Almost without exception, no matter which Chinese art you study, you can guarantee that doctors (or shamans) and the Chinese natural sciences played a role in their development. Even Xing Yi, a Moslem-born art, has Yin Yang theory, Meridian theory, and the like.

Even so, Wing Chun has a uniqueness to it, I think. The term "Always Spring," and all the meanings it conveys, accentuates the system by letting us know what the system is for, and how it's trained and applied.

Another aspect corresponding to Spring relates directly to the potential of the human body. A viscera and a Bowel, namely the liver and gallbladder, are assosciated with Spring. In Chinese Medicine, the Liver is assosciated with our planning capacity, while our gallbladder is in charge of our actions. (they form a yin yang relationship.) This relationship manifests within the system as the forms and as touching hands. The forms are a manifestation of the liver, their application is a manifestation of the gallbladder. Wing Chun therefore reveals the following:

Perpetual spring: perpetual planning and acting with the intention to achieve relaxation and regain/sustain harmony with reality.

How does this compare to the early buddhist stuff you were talking about?

[t_niehoff]

XM writes:

I just wanted to add that a reputable source doesn't necessarily have to be an official instructor with set classes, or even a person for that matter; real experience is a very vast and reputable source. It is the root of all sources, including instructors. XM

What if one does not have a verifiable lineage, but practices the forms, principles, and methodologies of Wing Chun? Is one still practicing Wing Chun? If someone in this situation were to pass one their knowledge, would the system be called Wing Chun, or would it be their own personal system? XM

I agree that experience is essential. I think that when we "learn WCK" (the objectives, strategies and tactics, movements, paths, concepts, etc.) and train it (the drills, gung lik, gong sao, etc.); our experience - prior to learning WCK, during our learning, and continuing experience - will inform our method. Should someone "practice the forms, principles, and methodologies of Wing Chun" then IMO they had to learn them from somewhere (unless they were developed independently); that somewhere -- actually a someone (whether books, video, etc.) -- had to have some connection to a few persons on the Red Boats. If someone can't point to a specific lineage but neverthless appears to be doing WCK, they had to get it from somewhere -- and it makes me wonder why they can't - or won't - say from whom. TN


I wonder, is the completeness of one's training in a particular system affected by the number of students an instructor is dealing with? Less students means more personal instruction, but less brains to ask useful questions or to investigate energies with. More students means less personal instruction, but more perspectives and energies to play with. Does one have an advantage over the other? If so, how? XM

If you view WCK as a learned skill (as I do), then I think looking at how we typically acquire any other learned skill shows that the closer to a one-on-one relationship between instructor and apprentice the better. Certainly many "master craftsman" had several apprentices at a time, and these apprentices interacted, but the instruction was markedly different than what one sees in group (mass) classes. If we look at our past, all the "great ones" learned either one-on-one or in a very small group. It is difficult to learn WCK, IMHO, in a McKwoon.TN


Perhaps someone could discuss "Praise Spring" and its implication as the root meaning of the system? (And what about Weng Chun? I thought I saw something about that on here, too, and know little about it. What are the characters? What does it mean? XM

The problem is that we don't know why the name was adopted (despite your excellent speculations). Was it because white crane kuen from Wing Chun County was part of what became WCK (our origin myth corresponds to theirs)? Or, as Hendrik's article suggests, that WCK means 'opera singers fist'? TN
-----------------------

[Censored] wrote:

But you must be wrong because Wing Chun is kuen faat ONLY! C

LOL! It is a kuen faat only to those few that train it that way. And, btw, it is easy to spot who do train to fight and who does not -- even over the internet. Folks that practice WCK to promote some image often like to remain anonymous and use pseudonyms as it is all part of their projected image and because it helps alleviate their fear of being seen for what they truly are; fighters being accustomed to folks seeing them for what they are don't feel the need to hide. Think about it. TN

Terence

[Rolling_Hand]

--The problem is that we don't know why the name was adopted (despite your excellent speculations).--TN

**Hm....

--Was it because white crane kuen from Wing Chun County was part of what became WCK (our origin myth corresponds to theirs)?--TN

**Huh...

-- Or, as Hendrik's article suggests, that WCK means 'opera singers fist'?-- TN

**Oh...boy, you are far from the end of your journey.

[t_niehoff]

RH Writes:

-- Or, as Hendrik's article suggests, that WCK means 'opera singers fist'?-- TN

**Oh...boy, you are far from the end of your journey. RH

You seem to have a problem with Hendrik and troll him every chance you get. I find this remarkable considering Hendrik possesses a great deal of knowledge concerning WCK (and Ch'an), has practiced the art for about 30 years, has fought full-contact matches in Asia, was involved with researching the roots of WCK (along with his sifu) before most of us even heard of WCK, etc. If you take those qualifications into account along with the understanding that english is his fourth language (!), and that he doesn't necessarily suffer fools well (an admirable trait IMHO -- though he baits them a bit too muchb), it will help you to appreciate his perspective. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

TN - Trouble with tossing pearls before swine is, sooner or later, they bite the hand that feeds them (remember Hannibal?) It's best, as you yourself have said before, not to encourage the trolls by responding to them. Personally, I'm happier if they aren't wised up. They seem like borderline personalities anyway, and if they end up trying to do harm to themselves or others at some point, better they do so with the dull knives they cling so cultishly to, and not a real, sharp one they could actually do damage with.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I agree that experience is essential. I think that when we "learn WCK" (the objectives, strategies and tactics, movements, paths, concepts, etc.) and train it (the drills, gung lik, gong sao, etc.); our experience - prior to learning WCK, during our learning, and continuing experience - will inform our method. TN

Well put. XM


Should someone "practice the forms, principles, and methodologies of Wing Chun" then IMO they had to learn them from somewhere (unless they were developed independently); that somewhere -- actually a someone (whether books, video, etc.) -- had to have some connection to a few persons on the Red Boats. TN

Yip Man --> Moy Yat --> Dunn Wah --> Augustine Ngu --> Robert Moxam (4 yrs)

Zi Ran Men/Seattle Red Boat WC - Mike Smith - 6 months

I'm really excited to be practicing Wing Chun. I haven't been at it all that long, and I'm thrilled to be finding small details on a daily basis. I have yet to complete the system, and probably won't complete it for the next five years due to the setup of the club I'm at now. No matter; I doubt I'll have run out of stuff find in SLT five years from now. :) XM

If we look at our past, all the "great ones" learned either one-on-one or in a very small group. It is difficult to learn WCK, IMHO, in a McKwoon.TN

Generally true in every discipline, that. Thanks for the thought. XM

The problem is that we don't know why the name was adopted (despite your excellent speculations). Was it because white crane kuen from Wing Chun County was part of what became WCK (our origin myth corresponds to theirs)? Or, as Hendrik's article suggests, that WCK means 'opera singers fist'? TN

I'm not closed to the idea of Wing Chun having White Crane in its ancestry, but I feel that White Crane was not the only library used to develop Wing Chun. Other martial systems from other counties were likely involved, so basing the origin of the name on one of those counties seems unbalanced. As well, Wing Chun has at its core the idea of Naturalness for humans. What's natural for humans is precisely "Always Spring." For the name to be changed to the name of a county is not implausible, just not understood on my part. I wouldn't know the rationale they used to choose the name.. did it simply sound the same, was Wing Chun county's White Crane not considered a threat to the Qing?

As for WCK meaning "Opera Singer's fist..." it helps me to think of the three possibilities of name origin - that Wing Chun was named by its creators, its inheritors, or its bystanders.

For the creators of Wing Chun to name it "Opera Singer's fist" would mean that Wing Chun was developed by or for opera singers. The level of detail and complexity present in the system does not really coincide with either possibility.

For the inheritors of Wing Chun to name it "Opera Singer's fist" is a more likely possibility, indicating a link between the breeding ground (not the birth) and the system.

For the bystanders of WCK to name it "Opera Singer's fist" is yet another possibility - the link between a particular art and its practitioners being easily seen and commented on.

Both potential name changes appear to revolve around class distinction - the inheritors maybe changing the name to disassosciate themselves from Shaolin and simply choosing a name based on their own status, and the bystanders using the term to describe what they saw happening.

I really have no idea what the truth of the matter is. In terms of Occham's razor, I'd have to say the name change occured with the inheritors on the boats. Whether or not that name change was to "Opera Singer's fist," "Praise Spring," or to "Wing Chun County's fist," or even to all three through various generations, I can't say. I do know that "Praise Spring" is the accepted translation in Yip Man's lineage, but as I've implied above, I'm not really that concerned with what the name changed to. What it changed from is a question that has led me to many useful bits of info. XM