Reverse Turning kick, Validity?

[TKD]

I have never been able to perform a reverse turning kick with much power. And, I have never seen anyone who can. Meaning, that I really don't think this kick is worth the energy required to throw it.

Now is where you come in, what do you guys think of it?

[carly]

Is this a spinning back hook kick, spinning outside crescent kick, or what?

[KC Elbows]

I'm not sure which kick you're referring to. Is it like a spinning reverse kick? If so, I'd agree with you.

[fa_jing]

He's talking about a spinning hook kick, but with the leg straight. As this is a high kick with a big telegraphed motion I don't think it is a good kick, too dangerous for getting jammed and taken down. It is actually a powerful kick however.

[TKD]

It's alot like a reverse hook kick, which spins to the back. Example: if I threw a left leg reverse hook kick, I would spin to my back in a counter clockwise motion and hit the guy in the head. The same is almost true for the reverse turning kick except that I would bypass that side of the head and turning kick his head on the other side. This is all done without putting the leg down.

[TKD]

Actually I'm talking about the "sporting" version. The one Fa_Jing is reffering to, we call a wheel kick.

[carly]

No, in that case it's not an effective kick - it's easily jammed or rushed by an opponent.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by TKD

Now is where you come in, what do you guys think of it?

I guess it depends on how you use it. It makes for one helluva nasty throw.

[TKD]

I don't think it would be easily jammed as it is the only kick I know of that comes up on that side and attacks the other. Most people would expect a back kick or reverse hook kick when they see that backward spin. In my experience they would move to block that side and leave the other open. My only complaint with it is that it is so weak.

[dnc101]

I have to agree with fa-jing and carly. I wouldn't do it. To easy to counter, leaves you vulnerable, and results are questionable, even if you pull it off.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by TKD
I don't think it would be easily jammed as it is the only kick I know of that comes up on that side and attacks the other. ... In my experience they would move to block that side and leave the other open.

Jamming isn't blocking. He's going to charge right through you, destroying targets on the way.

[Viper555]

My si sook got in close to me and kicked me in the back of the head with one(knee bent) and I ended up on the ground afterwards. Just thought i'd share that for no apparent reason.

[ricksitterly]

at first i thought u were referring to a reverse axe kick, which can be pretty quick and very useful.

i've been competing a long time and have never seen someone throw the kick you are referring to in a tkd tournament, therefore i doubt it has much real usefullness in a full contact match.
however, i'm simply not familiar with it, so i'm not going to criticize it much.

what do u think of the reverse (twist) round kick?


so far, it seems the most innovative tournament kick for tkd has been the double kick (those of u who dont know, it's 2 roudhouse kicks thrown in the air). it has definetly changed the face of tournament sparring.

just some thoughts...

[TkdWarrior]

even in competitions this doesn't work much good...
it can be stopped/counter very easily
u need just to check the guys hips/thighs to stop the complete motion n throw the guy outta range
or u can just walk rite thru him

even if for practicing these kicks r not weaks...
just asking how many yrs u hav spend in TKD?

the problem with this kick is that even in competition u need good set up for that... u need it fast...
as fajing said it's easily telegraphed.

rick ->it's 2 roudhouse kicks thrown in the air
wat innovation in this? or u saying something that i m not understanding?...
i know ppl who hav used side kick then drop/axe n from there it's side kick or snap with heel...some ppl gone for more than 4 kicks without even putting their kickin leg down...
i can normally throw 3-4 kicks combos(not in competition but in sparring)

-TkdWarrior-

[ricksitterly]

judging from uve talked bout, SURELY u know how to do a double kick... u probably just have a different name for it at ur school. i've been looking all over for a video clip but cant find any tonight sorry.

the double kick is a nickname for this technique. a lot of USTU fighters use this kick in sparring. herb perez is also a fanatic about this kick. it is exectued as such:
you throw a roundhouse with say the left foot, just as the left foot strikes the target the right foot is immediately brought up for a second roundhouse kick as u simultaneously land on the left foot. am i making sense? it's difficult to put in words but it takes literally 2 seconds to show someone. it's not a hard kick, as most tournament kicks are fairly basic. the spin hook kick being generally the most complex. of coarse, there are always a few hot shots who like trying out a 540 jump spin hook kick in the middle of a tournament match lol.

the double kick has indeed changed tkd tournament fighting (meaning throughout the past 10 years - breaking away from more traditional sparring) as it gave way to nonstop consecutive roundkicks as a means to overwhelm the opponent (before any of you jump in here, i'm talking about tkd tournaments- i'm not suggesting this is useful in a nhb / mixed style fight). after the double is learned, u can turn it into a triple, quadr., etc. etc. and simply keep kicking with alternating leg round kicks till you either fall down or push the opponent out of the ring. of coarse, a well placed spin back kick is a good counter for this, but that's the game. tkd sparring is like playing paper/scissors / rock with kicks (contrary to some traditional methods of attack, block, counter attack - tkd has evolved to attack , counter attack!). both fighters often kick at the same time, the superior kick will counter the other and score. ex: spin back kick counters round kick/ push kick counters back kick. and so on. there are always exceptions, but the basic mechanics are based on a few attack/ counter attacks with the roundhouse kick being the bread n butter of most competitors. indeed tkd probably has some of the most intricate, acrobatic kicks, but it's tournament style fighting is probably among the most basic and economical (as economical as kicking can be anyway). it resembles fencing (very much) more than it does fighting. but here i go rambling again lol.

"even if for practicing these kicks r not weaks...
just asking how many yrs u hav spend in TKD?"

ur complex writing style is a bit beyond me ;) were u asking me? i've been training tkd for about 13 years, since i was 7... fairly consistently except for a few times when i had to take maybe 6 months off because of injury/ crosstraining and such. i've moved around a lot, and seen some very hard core tkd schools, as well as some very watered down ones that give tkd a bad rep. balh blah i'll stop now lol. it's late.

[TkdWarrior]

ur complex writing style is a bit beyond me were u asking me?

sorry rick i m very well known for my writing style :D
well i was responding to TKD first then i asked u that question later.
i hav been in hard core TKD which deals both style(self defense n competition) equally effective.
due to competition sparring i m used to get lots of counter attacks n developing counter to counter attacks ... i know i cud easily walk thru them but ah... but we do No rules too :D

i understood ur double kick that's why i explained wat i thougth in my first post... anyways we call them combos, at minimum we learnd 3 hit combo(mostly first checking/Fake, then second n third real hits mostly depending) we r allowed to do fakes/checks on knees/thighs so normally it stops the advancment of my oppnts, but that won't get u any score in competitiong.
-TkdWarrior-

[ricksitterly]

pretty cool. currently i'm not training for any competitions so i've been training take-downs / hand techniques/ street application type stuff.... basically i'm just refreshing old stuff that u tend to forget about when u get too focused on fighting in the ring.

dont u just love the rush u get in an aggressive tkd match?

[apoweyn]

TKD,

I know the technique you're talking about. We used to do them in taekwondo too. Essentially, you go to throw a spinning hook kick, but you don't throw the hook kick. You leave the leg chambered until you've passed the opponent's head, then throw the roundkick on the opposite side. Right?

I wouldn't bother with it if I were you. Think about the advantage of the spinning hook kick. Ease of jamming aside, the advantage is the momentum you build up in the spin. And that advantage is completely and truly buggered the moment you don't throw that hook kick. That spinning momentum lends nothing to the round kick, which by definition comes from the other direction. More to the point, your momentum is actually working against the kick. So to pull the kick off at all, you have to stop that momentum dead. And that point, you're throwing the round kick with only as much power as you can muster from the chamber position.

And I agree with you. It's not worth the energy expended. Yes, it's misleading. But that does you little good if the final payload isn't very impressive. It's about the most labour-intensive feint I can think of actually. All that effort just for a slap on the other side. When a round kick straight from the ground could have been far more powerful.

A good feint should take nothing away from the final hit. Ideally, it'll add something to the final hit. But the maneuver you describe is a huge front-end investment with very little payoff at the end.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

sounds to complicated to me, if Ap is right on the description. My theory is that if you are going to kick your leg should travel from roughly its "resting" position to the target with nothing in between.

[Losttrak]

I typically only use the kick after I draw the opponent into a lead side round or side. The turning shoulder acts as a block, then as they are on one leg it comes across hammering them. It works like a charm for me.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I dream about people throwing high spinning kicks. Then closing the gap as their back is towards me and ripping into a suplex that snaps their neck.

but that's just me..

seriously, anytime you spin around, you put yourself in needless danger. While this might be great suprise tech in a point style tournament, in a situation involving grappling the repercussions are far too great to make this worthy of training to a great degree.

high kick + spinning kick = not for combat. two wrongs don't make a right.

[ShaolinTiger00]

However, it doesn't take very long to figure out if you are fighting someone who has the potential to take you to the ground

In a fight assume that EVERYONE has this potential. because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to grab onto to someone and pull them down either on purpose or by accident. You won't have time to analyze him. Assume he is Tito Ortiz/Mike Tyson/Cael Sanderson/Rickson Gracie rolled into one.


I find that usually, people who stand back and retreat a lot don't have the nuts to come in on you, and they are the prime candidate for a wheel kick to the head.

That's the difference between a club and the street. A guy in the street is going to be very aggressive if he's trained or untrained. He's attacking you! that's why your using your MA right?

[Losttrak]

...in a situation involving grappling...

I think you would find that most of us agree that firing a spinning wheel kick in a possible grappling situation would be risky. However there are some spinning kicks that might be suitable... I scooping back kick is a very nice alternative. Even if I miss or they catch it, I have trained to easily transition into a scissor takedown. Then from that point its me who will do the snapping of necks.

[ShaolinTiger00]

the only successful spinning kicks I've saw were used after combos of lead leg side kicks and spinning back kick, and they were used after opponent was completely busted and tired.

[red5angel]

I told this story once before but I saw an effective tornado kick used once...

[Losttrak]

hell yeah... lead leg lead counter ONLY. Everything else just isnt worth the risk. From what I have seen there are a few situations where you can pull off stuff like that where, normally, you couldnt. He is tired, he is intimidated or afraid, or there is such a difference is skill that he is running in circles and is confused by what u are doing. In a match of equals, I always fight very conservatively as I HATE to lose...

[Black Jack]

Since you turn your back I would say shelf it for self defense purposes. Anytime you have to turn your back, lose sight of your attacker for a strike, IMHO it is not a good idea.

Not to mention a certain upkeep of selected attributes that may not hold with age.

[Losttrak]

Gah! Dont remind me of old age... I am on the cusp and trying to forget!

As far as losing sight of your opponent, sometimes its a necessary evil. However I have trained enuff so that its only for a split second during a portion of the move that doesnt require eyes (as it hasnt gotten close to a direction-determining portion of the attack). Also, with the kicks I choose accuracy isnt as important as simply making contact. When I throw that back kick I dont care what he tries to stick in the way... arm, leg, knee, face I just kick hard and he gets to suffer the consequences of "full contact." If he dodges... if he is capable of evading after throwing a front side kick and then escaping whats coming to him... he deserves to eat my lunch. :D

[apoweyn]

on the cusp of old age?! you're three years younger than me, you little sod.

:)

[red5angel]

yes and look at you AP!!! You old guys scare me. :)

[Losttrak]

:D

[Black Jack]

I just see to much chance in a move that removes your attacker from your line of sight, a second is to long IMO, I would rather be pressing forward, hitting, hitting, hitting, get his space to become mine, than trying to throw a jet lee kick, and end up on my hairy ass.

Maybe a k-1 fighter could pull it off, but then again those are not normal ventures for everyday people, and then maybe not, when you throw a kick like that in a ring, you know the ref will stop the the fight if you slip on your ass or you get got up, before the other fighter pulls out a knife and stabs you to death, or does a mexican hat dance on your face, with size 13's.

Just my thoughts of course, everybody has there own thing

[Losttrak]

We need to define the argument before we discuss this then... First we were talking prolly about point/continuous, then we go San Shou, then we go street/reality. Ok... so we going to talk about if they pull out a gun next? What is the criteria we are discussing then we can talk about what applies where...

[fa_jing]

My sifu taught us the side-kick/spinning back kick combo that ST00 mentioned. I'm not too good at it despite my long-ago TKD training.

I think Ap put it pretty clearly about the "sport" reverse-turning kick. But some people can use those high kicks - I remember seeing Cung Le throwing a bunch of spinning hook kicks, although none landed and it was against a weak opponent. One combo with potential from a TKD perspective is similar but without the spinning - go for a high roundhouse kick but when they go to block, bypass the roundhouse and come up the other side with a hook kick. Or vice-versa. I have heard that Bill Wallace used such combo's with great effectiveness.

[ricksitterly]

"I know the technique you're talking about. We used to do them in taekwondo too. Essentially, you go to throw a spinning hook kick, but you don't throw the hook kick. You leave the leg chambered until you've passed the opponent's head, then throw the roundkick on the opposite side. Right?" - posted by apoweyn

THANK YOU... I FINALLY know what he was talking about now!!! lol. seriously , if he had worded it that way, it would have saved much confusion. by the way, now that i know technique was being referred to, it's a completely moronic technique and anyone who throws one against a decent opponent deserves to get immidiately clobbered (either in a fight or in a tournament).

lost trak- lead leg counters only? i actually never use lead leg counters. they lack power and the attack tends to blow right through them and hit you anyway. but u lead leg type fighters can be reall annoying in a match, i must admit. i HATE those guys.
i DID like your comment about "In a match of equals, I always fight very conservatively as I HATE to lose..."
which i feel is true. watching more advanced fighters in a tournament u pretty much see very basic, well timed kicks. nothing fancy. However, the fighters who are advanced in skill, but not yet experienced in competition, can usually be seen throwing all sorts of spinning techniques (sometimes getting lucky) but usually getting punished. Why spin hook kick someone in the face when you could have easily round kicked them in the face? o well whatever.

btw, a lot of u seem skeptical about the spin kicks... they actually are very useful counters... in tkd competition anyway. the one time i was truly knocked unconscious was when a 6th dan korean instructor gave me a spin hook kick to the jaw. one minute i'm standing there in fighting stance, the next thing i remember i'm at the water fountain (ten minutes later). download some clips from the US team trials or the (tkd) US Open. You'll see a LOT of (successful) spin back kick / spn hook kick counters (countering various attacks). seriously, i'm sure u guys would b impressed. expand your minds a little :) (just dont expand them so much that u try to do a "reverse turning kick" on someone... sorry TKD, maybe u put it to some use, but i just think that's a really stupid kick. )

oh one last thing - even if u also take tkd, dont take my opinions to heart, as methodology and choice of techniques depends greatly on your individual style tendencies (for instance, are you a counter fighter/offensive/defensive/ evasive?) so whatever works for u. whatever ur style, experience is the main thing that teaches u how to make it work

[ShaolinTiger00]

in tkd competition

About as far from reality as a "martial" art can get.

[ricksitterly]

i consider it a sport.
my actual MA training for self defense is much different

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
yes and look at you AP!!! You old guys scare me. :)

bah... i dunno what's wrong with you kids today! must be all that dang rack music. dj doggy dog and the fresh prints.

[grumble]

[apoweyn]

well, a discussion about whether spinning kicks are a good idea is certainly valid. but in terms of the original question, my answer's pretty simple. the specific technique that TKD described could really only be applicable in the point arena, as far as i'm concerned. anything demanding more contact than that would have no place for that technique. never mind grappling, takedowns, knives, blah, blah, blah. i just don't think you can put enough stank on that technique to hurt someone with it. period.

as usual, though, your mileage may vary.



stuart b.

[ShaolinTiger00]

i consider it a sport.

A wise consideration.

[ricksitterly]

i can feel your tone behind those typed words shaolintiger :)

ur knocking tkd ( who isnt these days )
tkd sparring IS a sport [it involves padding, judges, a mat, points, and occasionally, hot korean chicks that scream] - by this criteria, it is officially a sport (these are my rules, i make em). seriously, i love doing it and i dont stop to think about "how this would apply to combat". participation in the sport is enough. everything i do in martial arts doesnt have to revolve around how well it prepares me for a life or death situation... u gotta have some enjoyment in life. i consider tkd sparring to be a skill in and of itself, having little to do with fighting skill, and vice versa. an amazing fighter could enter a tkd tournament and very well get his as$ handed to him. just like people who win tkd tournaments might get pounded on the street by the people they wipe the floor with during a tkd match. if u enjoy what ur doing, who really cares

[No_Know]

Like ballet dancers spinning or professional dancers spinning in place the head comes around first. The kick can be discontinued and preparations can be made to receive a rush or the such.~

"I don't think it would be easily jammed as it is the only kick I know of that comes up on that side and attacks the other. Most people would expect a back kick or reverse hook kick when they see that backward spin. In my experience they would move to block that side and leave the other open. My only complaint with it is that it is so weak."-TDK

I think the easy jamming comes with the leg positioning on comming around. That gets hooked and they are running in it might be ti=ough to balance on that one standing leg.

Back kick-people might hesitate. Reverse hook-sounds as though they might try to rush it (not the immediate threat of straight shot that is the back kick).

Blocking to that side should stop the kick about which you were asking because itwould have to pass the block in order to complete. Unlessthe kick is altered an the leg is tucked there-by passing the block and set to unleash on the otherside.

But as apoweyn brought-up about force dispersion you would run into what you've mentioned you've run in to. Unless you startup befor the force completely disipates. Division. Use the force used in reversinglike the jerk of a vehicle thron into reverse. It becomes like a solid off from which you might could push, to execute the now roundhouse kick.

[No_Know]

Hunting is considered Sport. And Dear (people (can)), end up, dead.

[Losttrak]

Let me clarify the "lead-leg counter" thing...

I counter with a spinning kick when my opponent fires a lead leg attack.

[No_Know]

The dj's dog walked all over the fresh prints. There were pauus(e) as we put in a replacement order.

[ricksitterly]

Hunting is NOT a sport. There are NO hot korean girls screaming in those woods. I checked. Sorry, you're wrong. Also, there's no points or judges. Is there even any padding? I dont think hunting fits any of my sport criteria.

I must admit. if it WAS a sport (which it isnt), it would prove the most efficient combat preparatory sport in existence.
picture this scenario of two sports practitioners matching their learned sports skills for efficient use in combat:

Athlete number one - "I know soccer.. a sport which has superior kicking skills that I can incorperate in a fight."

Athelete number two - "I know hunting....." ::BANG!!!::


We have a winner by KO

In fact, I'm pretty sure the hunter would win against any martial art style used in the UFC, even BJJ!! They should allow hunting as a UFC style. That would pave the way to allow sniping...

[apoweyn]

I think the easy jamming comes with the leg positioning on comming around. That gets hooked and they are running in it might be ti=ough to balance on that one standing leg.

no_know's exactly right. the fact that the second kick is hitting on the side you don't expect has exactly f-ck all to do with this technique being jammed. if someone's of a mind to rush you when you spin, you'll be face down on the ground long before you pull out the tricky feint maneuver.


stuart b.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Black Jack


Maybe a k-1 fighter could pull it off,


Strangely enough, the last Pride in Japan had a Russian Judo/Sambo guy who landed that kick on a K-1 fighter and knocked him on his butt.

[SevenStar]

lol, that musta been beautiful.

[SevenStar]

I would never use kicks like that unless that guy is already worn out, or unless I'm just playing around. I wouldn't worry about putting that kick into your self defense arsenal though.

BUT, there are kicks that are even more useless, like the statue of liberty axe kick. If you know what it is, then you know what I mean.