One dimensional views of CMA

[firepalm]

Just a thought, but having frequented the KFOL forums for some time I am surprised by the number of one dimensional views of CMA. Essentially the a vast majority of the views seem to amount to a one dimensional interpretation that can be summed up in,
"my style is best cause it can fight & that's what real Kung Fu is!"

Another close one seems to be,
"we don't like that because it creates an impression of CMA that is not in line with what are perceptions are!"
This one is usually in response to the manner in which a variation of style is done (ie; CLF, South Mantis, etc...) or to the newer trends in CMA; San Shou, Shaolin, Wushu, etc....

The CMA, like other Asian & western martial arts, started out of a necessity to defend oneself & for health. The CMA as a whole in my opinion however went on to encompass so much more. What other martial art (Asian or western) offers not only self defence & health but also sport fighting, performance sport, performance art, philosophy, etc...? What other martial art can include medicine (Tiet Da), lion dance, Shen Da (Spiritual Occult practices) etc...? What other martial art cross over into other physical cultural pursuits like Chinese Opera, Chinese Acrobatics, etc...? What other martial art has the history & religious influences? What other martial art has spawned as many film stars (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan & Jet Li)? What other martial art has the color & pagentry of CMA?

Herein lies the beauty & the true lasting value of CMA, it's diversity. CMA is a true bastion of Chinese culture (traditional & pop culture). Is it just me or does this seem to fly over the heads of most in the west as seen on these forums (if KFOL can be used as a true gauge of CMA perceptions in the west)? Are those in North America so deeply ingrained with 'John Wayne' & 'Rambo' mentalities that they can only view the CMA from a singular perspective?

Personally I don't care if we never have a 'Kung Fu' win a 'NHB' type event, it would be nice, but I really don't care. The CMA, even if never produces a 'NHB' whatever fighter, has so much more to it.

That's my tyrade!
Views?

[fa_jing]

Hey - if that's how you feel, and that's what your direct experience has been, then don't worry about any B.S. you read on an internet forum.

[Diamond Talons]

FP you see 1 dimensional views because mostly thats whats on this forum & I think most peoples who do CMA not on this forum or any forum & don't even have computers. Just for me the hand is only for fighting but I say just for me & not a rule or any thing like that & peoples free to do what ever they want that is in their hand as noone controls the heart & I think thats where this thing really lives. I don't understand how some say it must be this way or that way as even with same teacher & same kind of body every guy different in many many ways that seen by the skilled eye & watch some guys do the same move & different stuffs there as some move to kill & some move to make it the most perfect shape they can & so on. You look at the words CMA & the middle word is one kind of answer & that word means war so who do you fight other guys or the self & after so many years there is only the self left & that the best foe no doubts for me but thats just for me.

[firepalm]

I fully realize that the views expressed on this forum are not wholly representative of all Chinese martial artists in the west, and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions & so on. As mentioned however in frequenting this forum it seems that the two opinions listed in first post seem to come up very often, which simply leads me to wonder, 'do people here not realize there is so much more to the CMA?'. I would agree with DT, in that the middle word is 'Martial', but there are also two other words there as well. Just wondering if I am in fact wrong in my impressions?

;)

[extrajoseph]

Firepalm,

I, personally, speaking for myself, IMO, wholely support your impression in this case. There is "Chinese", there is "Martial" and there is "Art". :D

[TkdWarrior]

What other martial art (Asian or western) offers not only self defence & health but also sport fighting, performance sport, performance art, philosophy, etc...? What other martial art can include medicine (Tiet Da), lion dance, Shen Da (Spiritual Occult practices) etc...? What other martial art cross over into other physical cultural pursuits like Chinese Opera, Chinese Acrobatics, etc...? What other martial art has the history & religious influences? What other martial art has spawned as many film stars (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan & Jet Li)? What other martial art has the color & pagentry of CMA?
except for movie stars...
Indian MA like kalaripayatt n MarmaAtti gives u all above that...
just to point out :D
anyways i do agree with ur views firepalm
the diversity in CMA itself makes it intresting...
-TkdWarrior-

[Diamond Talons]

FP I think you're right about character of forum as being 2 ways pretty much only & I don't think it's peoples not knowing as it's peoples just being the way they are that's all. First word is Chinese so these things are known as Han or from the Chinese & last word is art which I understand to mean to do very very well or skilled so it's the Chinese way of making war with great skill & question still there as to who you going to fight. No right or wrong answers for me FP just a choice & who can say to some other guy your choice is right or wrong as it's each person who does this thing & just for me I say peoples do it by their heart.

[SevenStar]

For me, it's fighting. I like to learn the history of the art, but I don't NEED to do that in class. What I need to do in class is train. Same thing goes for the "spirtual" aspect - I have a church for that.

As for CMA winning NHB, it really doesn't matter. The reason you hear MMA guys bring it up is because of the "I would just do technique X and beat him easily", or "I would enter, but my style is too deadly" MMA guys tend to be more the "put up or shut up" type - Not too different from how CMA used to be - and still is in some circles.

[Diamond Talons]

7Star I find most guys who talk about fighting never been in real fight & just beat up on guys who not really fighters either as to be able to honestly say I do this or that means that guy has been there before more than once times as any one can get lucky a time maybe two. It's hard to really hurt a man to beat him down & not just hard to do as move thing but hard to do in the mind as most of us not really made that way & seek life of peace not blood & from what I see of what peoples call fight is more a guy not really wanting to but striking any way & the other guy not really wanting to fight getting hit & quitting. As I know fighting it's I want to spill the guys blood or kill him & he feels the same way about me so it's dammed ugly with none of us walking away all clean but only one of us walking away & no doubt in any guys mind or body it was fight for real.

[David Jamieson]

There are a lot of "eastern" people who hold the same views as the "western" people firepalm.

I personally believe this is stemming from a lack of understanding and not enough years of practice to know any better.

Typical of those who are at lower levels of understanding.

With time, and practice and depth of knowledge and breadth of knowledge, all these perceptions go out the window.

for some people, this takes a long time, for the diligent, it will come, for those who give up on the path, it will never manifest.

just keep practicing, and let the others grow as they will.

cheers

[extrajoseph]

For me, it's the Art. I like the Martial aspect, but I don't NEED to do that in class, I can do it on the street and when ever or where ever I feel like a fight. What I need to do in class is the Art. The "Chinese" bit I can do it at home any time. Same thing goes for the "spiritual" aspect - I have a local temple for that. History? I get all I need right here on this forum! :D

So all I need is the Art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

for some people, this takes a long time, for the diligent, it will come, for those who give up on the path, it will never manifest.

just keep practicing, and let the others grow as they will.

cheers

but you don't know what path an individual may have chosen to take...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
For me, it's the Art. I like the Martial aspect, but I don't NEED to do that in class, I can do it on the street and when ever or where ever I feel like a fight. What I need to do in class is the Art. The "Chinese" bit I can do it at home any time. Same thing goes for the "spiritual" aspect - I have a local temple for that. History? I get all I need right here on this forum! :D

So all I need is the Art.

But, the art is martial, no?

[extrajoseph]

Yes, 7*,

I think we are talking about martial arts - fighting as an art form, and not about tournaments and competitions which are sports.

For me, to fight is easy (having been in a few scraps myself), but to fight neatly and beautifully takes some time and effort, like may be a life time?

Anyone can throw a punch, but to throw a punch like a falling star, now that is Art.

Anyone can kick, but to kick without a shadow, now that is Art.

Anyone can slash, but to slash like the wind whistling, now that is Art.

Anyone can fight, but to fight calmly and without hesitaion and regret, now that is Art.

That is what I want to learn in my CMA classes.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Anyone can kill, but to kill calmly and without hesitaion and regret, now that is Art.

That makes an Art?!...wrong, it just makes a cold blooded killer...something the Shaolin Temple did not want...so it tempered the warrior aspects with spiritual aspects...and THAT is what makes the Martial ARTS so unique and respected. Those who study the Shaolin Arts and do not have the spiritual aspects such as compassion, honor, integrity, respect for life and ways etc. only have half the art. The art can make you calm and efficient at self-defense, but it should never make you into a killer!

GHD

[Diamond Talons]

GHD there are many many CMA that have & had nothing to do with Temples Shaolin or any other for that matter so I say yes to your post for those CMA that claim Temples but no to those hands who have nothing to do with Temples. Since noone I read posts the quote you have it must be book boy little EJ that says this craps & he claims CLF hand & this hand has Temples influence so you're right to show him as wrong again but he's arrogant troll who never wrong in his blind eyes so don't expect much from this guys okay. Cold blooded killer guys have given up their human nature to become what it is they choose & really most peoples that say such stuffs are like EJ & just posts craps hoping to make their selves big but they just turn out puffy as these guys never have one real fight much less really take a life in a fight so who cares what stupid trolls have to say about any hand. Young guys reading this forum can easily see these guys just all craps talking & just from book not real life so I ignore list EJ & Chinggong & Mantella & Oldyela Ellie & it turns their craps stuffs to nothing but a line on the computer & line is flat like when brain goes dead so it fits these guys really good I think. You argue with these guys all you want GHD but I think you find they're not real & just post craps as thats all they know & just trolls playing games for fun so no harm in their stuffs it's just craps to get peoples up that mistake them for real for a bit of time okay.

[extrajoseph]

GHD,

I knew that sentence will get me into trouble, detachment from fear was what I was trying to convey, not being a cold blooded killer.


DT,

Put me in your ignore list but still managed to insult me. You are indeed possessed with me!

[David Jamieson]

Regardless of temple arts or village or military.

Each and every Asian martial art generally has a code of ethics attached.

Teachers who know an art in depth will simply not teach the more ...well, dangerous or forbidden techniques and how to train them to those who hold poor attitudes towards life and the art.

The art is not just a vehicle of killing. It has many beneficial side effects such as health and philosophy or personal view.

To constrain one's strength is paramount in gaining the power that comes from martial arts practice.

Any schmuck can kill.

Extra, I understand what your intent in that statement was, but perhaps you could have wrapped it in the disclaimer?

cheers

[extrajoseph]

KL,

I should have, but I am always conscious of the amount of time I spent in this place and sometimes rushing it.

There is a thin line between being cool and being cold, it is easy to cross this line either verbally or in real life, I guess that is what being human is all about: knowing the boundary of things.

Ethics and morality are important not only in martial arts but also in everything we do. "Thou shall not kill" goes for science and technology as well.

While on the same subject, to me the word "Chinese" in CMA does not mean you have to be a Chinaman to do the art, it means the art is based on Chinese philosophy and Chinese metaphysics as compared to Indian or Jewish, that is all.

Peace.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

EJ...thanks for the clairification, I though that may have been what you wanted to express. Words are powerful and they should (but not always do) convey what is in our heart and mind.

GHD

[sapphire tygre]

I think that any form of martial art or self defense should have spirituality,
ethics, and warrior code fully integrated into it. It's of prime importance
that the fighting be well directed and rightious.

[firepalm]

Essentially in refering to Chinese Martial Arts, I take the word Chinese to mean 'something of a Chinese culture', CMA does in fact have a lot of Chinese culture reflected in it. Further one doesn't need be Chinese (or a China man as X Joe put it to appreciate the culture of it) Martial of course refers to the science of fighting / self defense & also historical martial arts actions & movement. Art is more of an abstract term that can in fact be taken to mean skill of doing CMA, as well as the physical beauty of many of the styles.

Personally I think CMA is not something that can be pigeon holed as strictly one thing, fighting only or such, as it something much broader in scope. For those that chose to engage in CMA for the fighting self defence skills that it can impart that is great. However in presenting CMA to the public I think teachers, practitioners do it greater justice by presenting as an art form for fighting, health & sport and that is a true reflection of Chinese culture (or something like that).

Just my take! :cool:

[Diamond Talons]

FP good stuffs & not my way at all but you sure write good so it's a joy to read & for those still searching for how they want to do this thing it gives a lot of stuffs to think about no doubts. ST there is such things maybe in all hands but more so in the person & I know it as how my parents raised me not the hand which is for killing only as I was taught & as I learned & as I teach. My people don't come to class for lesson on God & they don't go to Church for lesson on hand & each thing in its place as part of the whole person & this just for me as opinion okay.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sapphire tygre
I think that any form of martial art or self defense should have spirituality,
ethics, and warrior code fully integrated into it. It's of prime importance
that the fighting be well directed and rightious.

you can get that from anywhere... I'd rather spend training time training. I can get spirituality from a church, and that would integrate it's own "warrior code" as you would learn ethics there that you can apply to your training.

[Lao_Peng_You]

7* I agree and disagree with you. Spirituality does not have to be a part of MA. In fact, most of those that do include it often create a barrier based on ego in front of them. Keep in mind I said "most". Also, the word "spirituality" is so loaded, it really can't be defined here without a ton of input/bs.

Ethics are simple, and should be included. Often, *respect* is an ethic taught, even in the MMA community. I know many BJJ and Muy Thai guys, and they are respectfull people. Also, if you are in your class, and you start arm barring people left and right where their arm breaks, chances are you will be kicked out. Although, I think in a fight there are no ethics.

Warrior code is also tricky, but like ethics, does not have to be studied in depth to understand it, at least on a surface level.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by SevenStar


you can get that from anywhere... I'd rather spend training time training. I can get spirituality from a church, and that would integrate it's own "warrior code" as you would learn ethics there that you can apply to your training.

I think we need to make a distinction between religion and spirituality here. We can learn about religion in a church or a temple but not neccessarily spirituality, which has to be awaken individually. This can happen in MA training because a complete body/mind integration will lead to spirituality without being specifically taught.

[David Jamieson]

Getting in touch with spiritual aspect in yourself is part and parcel to getting in touch with your mind and your body.

This concept is universal and not necessarily cultural.

Each culture has an expression of these lessons. Chinese martial arts is however a good vehicle for this awakening in a person. As are virtually all martial arts, even those with almost no emphasis on the spiritual.

What I mean is, you will discover things about your self through practice of martial arts which in turn will reflect on how you interact with others.

humility is a great lesson for anyone and is the first step towards spiritual awakening. If you can't humble yourself, the doors won't all open.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

DT

I was specifically referring to CMA related to Buddhism. I think you would find it difficult indeed to find any CMA in China other than contemporary wushu, that is not related at some point in it's history to a spiritual discipline such as Buddhism, Taoism, Moslem etc. These disciplines temper the individual to not misuse the art. In the West, many CMA artists are Christian as it is the predominant religion. What most Sifu teach (or at last should by example and lessons) along with the art is not religion but rather ethics, integrity, loyalty, honor, persistance, bravery and to not give up after some little adversity - in other words these develop the mind, spirit and character...all of which contribute to a better citizen/person and not misusing the art. If a person just wants to gage the value of a martial art by its fighting aspects...then they only have half the art.

GHD