Because You Demanded It: Find the Application (vol1)

[Braden]

http://www.thewushucentre.ca/baguaexcerpts/Image10.gif

Would be nice if images were enabled for this. ;)

Because you demanded it: more on-topic threads. Picture from Andrea Falk's marvelous translation of Jiang Rong Qiao's Baguazhang, from her site: www.thewushucentre.ca Check it out!

Now, the game: Find the application!

This is a baguazhang posture that we call 'fierce tiger leaps out of cave.' Your task: Describe an application where you'd use this posture! It's one of my favorites, but I'm not gonna ruin the game by telling you what I [try to] use it for!

Don't worry about the arrows. Not just for baguazhang folk! Not even just for kungfu folk! Everyone try your hand! It doesn't have to be a one-step application; it can be in the middle of a scuffle, whatever, just use the posture!

And... GO! :D

[Water Dragon]

Stick your fingers in the other guys nose and push him. :D

[Braden]

******... WD wins. Game over. :D

[rogue]

Aren't his hands moving the wrong way for that application?

[fa_jing]

oh, i know that one. it's the first move in patty-cake, right?
:D

[Braden]

Rogue - pay no attention to the arrows... they're actually indicating where to go to the next posture anyway...

Come on guys, give it a shot.

[fa_jing]

We have a move almost exactly like that in the Wing Chun dummy sets. The top arm is a dispersing block and the bottom is a palm-strike to the midsection from the outside gate.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by fa_jing
oh, i know that one. it's the first move in patty-cake, right?
:D

No, patty-cake is a Wing Chun move, not Bagua :p

[Braden]

Yay! I knew someone here did kungfu. :p

fa_jing: I dunno how you do the dispersing block, but... a fun way of doing that is making contact with that 'dispersing block' when you are rear-weighted, with the back of your arm, which is extended straight forward, palm down-ish. Then, sticking with that arm, push your weight forward into the bow while rotating the 'dispersing block' forearm until the fingers point up-ish and palm points at your face. You can get a really spirally energy doing this that really closes down someone's structure, and the real push from your legs and waist as you rotate and enter is great.

Ah... but that might be closer range than wing chun. How tight are you trained to go on a move like that? Going head on, we'll step straight through the guys legs and make hip-hip contact, not hang back and do it. But there's a better close-range step with that technique than doing head-on...

[fa_jing]

Hey we do it with a slightly different jing - more of a rotational energy based on an axis through the rear foot. Also in the form it involves a step forward from a side stance to a forward stance bringing up what was the rear foot to be the front foot. Kindof hard to describe - you are side stepping to the outside gate then turn back to face the opponent. Sort of like walking the outside circle and then stepping in towards the center of the circle with what was your rear foot. I think the main difference is probably the horse that we use.


WD: but an advanced Wing Chun practicioner can issue 8.3 patty-cake slaps per second. ;)

[fa_jing]

I just saw your edit. No we aren't trained to bang hips, but the stepping leg may make contact with the opponent's leg and help to break their structure. The range is that which is optimal for the palm strike from our stance. Then the idea is to keep striking and cramping them and applying forward pressure until they go down - but maintaining some seperation the whole time rather than closing for a throw.

[Braden]

Aha... we have the exact same posture later in the form, only throwing an elbow instead of a palm strike... we're pretty happy getting close. ;)

I think I know what you mean about attacking the opponent's leg with your weighted/front knee... one of the things we work is the idea that any bow stance is an implied 'press' from above and to the side of the opponent's knee joint with your own knee as you enter and sink into the stance. Works good for us tall *******s.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, This looks like a throw to me. The lead leg has stepped behind the opponent, the rising arm has cut power of an attack, it turns grabs the face, then the body rotates left drawing the happless victem over the lead leg and down to the floor where you slam the back of his head off the concrete.

Of course that could just be an application from one of my Tai Tzu sets that uses the same posture :D

[Braden]

Yay! Ok... this one's a bit more, uh... dedicated...

But imagine as if you're going for a two-on-one hold on a guy's arm. Your left hand (going along with the picture...) captures the dude's right (his right) inner wrist, but instead of holding above the elbow with your right arm, your right arm slips up behind the dude's right arm (his right) as you pull the slack from it with your wrist-crapture, so his above-the-elbow is nestled in your right elbow-pit (and your right fingers point up, right palm points to your face, as in the picture). You're not in the bow stance yet... so as you shift, emphasize the clockwise (looking down) shifting-and-waist energy to first pull back the right arm (holding his above the elbow) and then press his inside-wrist with your left hand, as if you were doing that palm strike, locking the elbow against it's grain (or do it more violently).

I like the fire-and-forget 'hammer people with your body until they stop moving' approach better, but hey, it's all good!

[Water Dragon]

OK, serious app. The pushing hand is actually hugging the guy to keep him close. The hand moving upward has a knife in it (icepick grip) and cuts the guys face from chin to forehead.

The next move is to bring the knife down into the base of his skull as you sweep him.

[Braden]

You don't need a knife for that!

Imagine the right side of the body entering on the inside into the bow step, the right hand lifts as in the picture to stop a clinch or as an upward glancing block (glancing off to your side, not supporting like a roof block :eek: ) , then it just hammers right back down again with the bottom of that elbow, the arm in that same position. Lots of decent targets!

[Water Dragon]

Or you could just charge down the center (literally try to run through him) with the elbow moving up. You're gonna catch something, doesn't really matter what.

[dezhen2001]

it looks to me like the left (low) hand is parrying or even slightly crowding your partners arm towards his body as you either chop or palm with the right (top) hand...

could be stepping in at an angle to your partner and using your front leg to take his structure, and knocking him with a palm to the head... (similar to the wing chun dummy form).

top arm parrying and left arm pushing or palming...

cant think of any more right now :D

dawood

[Braden]

WD - Haha totally... my teacher showed me that as an app to a bear posture from xingyi... he glanced my attack, caught my chin with the elbow coming up, then dropped it down on my pec. Felt brutal! (and made me decide to work on it myself!)

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, it sucks when you hit someone hard,then they come thru you and hit you about 3 times harder don't it? We call it trading nickels for dimes!

[Braden]

... the best way to do the app we were talking about earlier, where the lifted palms pressed his outside gate to take his structure as the lower palm strikes is, imho...

... there's openings for this both from right up front and from an angle, but let's say you're angled a bit at the left gate, and close range from working through clinches or sticking and following, and you see an opening to do that app: the bow-step should go at a 45o angle towards the RIGHT rear corner from where you are (on the left), so you're actually stepping across the front of him (this is real close range, obviously). Gets him right crossed up in himself, easy then to take the back, throw him, whatever.

[Xebsball]

I dont know why Braden posts this things, everybody knows that Bagua is a variant from an ancient chinese folk dance and its objective is to walk around the oponent until he gets dizzy and faints.

[Braden]

Xebs, if I wanted your opinion, I'd flock-of-wild-geese-bursts-out it out of you! And there's not a **** thing your watered-down Shotokan could do about it!

... and when I was through with you, I'd leave your body on that crazy snake island.

:D

[Crimson Phoenix]

Braden, this is one of the best threads lately!

I'll answer after I ask my sifu about it...he was a student of Jiang's hehehehehhe

[Xebsball]

lol :D

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, heres a good one.

opponent round kicks with his right, your lower left catches it by wrapping and holding, he tries to escpe by punching with his lead, but your right hand blocks by cutting his power. His head is right there, so you turn the palm over, grab his head, and turn down throwing him to the ground really hard.

To keep from loosing your own balance, you fall full weighted on his lower ribcage with your knee point thus crushing his rib cage and driving a busted rib into his lung.

You have been brain washed into thinking Kung Fu is not very good, totally sux, and not too deadly for the ring, so you continue by pouncing on the dying corpse and attempt an arm bar from the mount (Work with me here). With his last gasp he tapps before he dies, and you stand up and scream the greatness of BJJ/MMA!!!! :D

[Former castleva]

Considering the forward momentum,slapping the guys chin up to jam his head back (unbalancing) then strike his breastbone/centre line to take the remains of his root.

[ZIM]

I'm really liking the viewpoints I'm reading.

For myself, I admit to seeing it as more the middle of something...lower hand disrupting and dissolving an attack, the top hand doing a right heavy slap to the nape of the neck...then probly a good pulldown going...*structure destroyed*

I'm thinking the left might then come up to finish the job, maybe attended by a knee or stompin kick.

[FatherDog]

Given my training, my view on any Chinese MA posture is probably a bit suspect, but...

Like WD and others, I would tend to see this as a throw, or a setup for one. If the shown right leg is on the outside of the opponent's left leg, the left arm under hooks the opponent's right arm, the right arm (being higher) goes over his left arm and clasps hands behind his back. The thrower then arches his back and rotates to his right. The throwee's upper body is moved over the thrower's leg; this prevents his legs from moving with him and remaining under his body, taking him over and down.

Alternately, if the shown right leg is cross-stepped to be on the outside of the opponent's right leg, this could be a setup for a version of Harai Goshi (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/haraigoshi.htm)

[SevenStar]

hand check and strike to the chin. Also, a set up for a throw.

[joedoe]

Could be anything you want it to be :D

[SevenStar]

for the people who say throw - which throw? I can see it as koshi guruma/neck surround. I can also see it as an o uchi gari and possibly hiza guruma/de ashi barai.

[SevenStar]

I can also see it as a set up for puter kapala

[Braden]

Everything in bagua is a setup for puter kepala. ;)

Elbow-palm combination is just faster. :D

[Braden]

Er... unless you meant from the inside... I usually default to thinking puter kepala as done from the outside, but I guess most people do the opposite.

I've mostly been talking about using that posture from the outside. Except for the locking app... But that posture can also be used for opening up the guy and taking the inside, sticking/leading/pressing the inside of his arm with your raised/right arm to open him up, while the lower/left palm strikes as you enter, or deals (or is dealt with) by his other hand. Then from this inside position, you could close all the way and do splitting/angling throw like tenchinage. Or you could wrap your upper/right hand around the back of his head to clinch, or do the same and press his arm with your lower/left palm to do a puter kepala from the inside. Or if you're handy with some of the spirally, weighted turns in bagua, you could turn ccw (looking down) on the front/weighted foot, arcing the right/upper palm to do a palm-elbow combination from behind-to-front on the side of his head (eg. mastoid), which you could follow up by "unwinding" the arm and posture (just reversing the movement you just did) but catching his face with your right palm as it unwinds, and sinking your posture to "make him bridge" backwards, with your front/weighted leg and hip nestled against his to take his base, and other arm messing with the posture from an arm control.

Dunno if any of that was follow-able. ;)

[Braden]

BTW, I'm really glad we're getting a good cross-section of folk replying.

Bagua, it seems to me, is simply about extending your arms, moving your body, and having it do something useful and skillfull.

It's a format well suited to a variety of interpretations.

The posture we're commenting on is from a form of Jiang Rong Qiao. Jiang's style is part of the big family of Cheng style baguazhang, the founder of which (Cheng Ting Hua) was a famous and dedicated wrestler. So takedown interpretations of his methods are surely reasonable!

In case anyone is interested, and didn't try to find it allready, the complete page that pic is from is: http://www.thewushucentre.ca/jiangrongqiao.htm

The blacktaoist also has an article on this form at his site: http://www.blacktaoist.com/Original%20form%20Ba%20Gua.html and uses a version of the fierce tiger posture in one of his applications: http://www.blacktaoist.com/graphics/applications/NovellDonald.html

Yes, I am just plugging some excellent sites on the art. :D

[FeloniousMonk]

I am the greatest. I have a big d!ck. I would like to fight each of you pathetic kung fu wanna be computer nerds. If by any small chance one of you would like to fight me I would be happy to introduce you to my ten inches of dangeling fury, after i'm done kicking your fragile unconditioned @sses I will then proceed fu(king them. I usually don't have time to post on this forum, I'm usually training to hard to waste my precious time telling pu55ies what their doing wrong.

If you would like to fight me then you must:
1) come to where I live (we can spar/fight in G.D.A.'s training room. I would go to where you all live, but since my time is obviously more valuable than yours, this will be better for me.)
2)When you lose I reserve the right to pummel your loose flabby computer nerd @sses.
3) After your fated defeat I will then answer all your questions(if you live)
4) Finally in order for you to fight you must sign a waiver stating that you know your life is at great risk.

Ihave challenged all to show you why I am................

[SevenStar]

I was talking about puter kapala from the outside. The rest was indeed barely followbale, but probably due to my own tiredness...

[Royal Dragon]

Depending on the entry, the lower hand could also be to controll an elbow. As a striking technique, once thew elbow is controlled, the head is open. If the prctitioner has had sufficient Iron hand/ especially the fingers, it could be a jabbing spear hand into the soft spot just under the jaw joint to stun, followed by a throw forward face first into the concrete (depending on the attackers foot position of course)

[dezhen2001]

thats kinda what i said RD, a wing chun 'pak sau' to control the elbow/arm and a palm or chop to the side of the jaw/neck as you step in :D

dawood