Wing Chun to be featured at 2003 Arnold Battle of Columbus

[passing_through]

Two Special Events featuring Wing Chun!

When and Where
2003 Arnold Battle of Columbus
Friday, February 28th to Sunday, March 2nd
Greater Columbus Convention Center
Battelle Hall
Columbus, OH

* Featuring 20 Separate Championships, 40 Unique Workshops and a Bruce Lee Exhibit

Wing Chun Competition
- For the third year in a row, a Wing Chun Grand Champion Competition will be offered to Wing Chun division competitors. Participants can compete in one of four events: forms, Chi Sau, Dummy, or Sparring. Participants must compete in all four events to be eligible for the Grand Champion competition - which features a cash prize.

Wing Chun Workshop: Saturday March 1st, 5:50 to 7:00 p.m., Champaign room
- Sifu Benny Meng will be presenting a workshop on the Wing Chun Dummy. This workshop will cover Ip Man Wing Chun as well as an introduction to the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and Chi Sim Weng Chun Dummy sets.

For more information, contact:

Oriental Martial Arts College (OMAC)

1349 Brice Rd.
Reynoldsburg, OH 43068
(614) 864-4000 (phone)
(614) 864-4146 (fax)
wuma.com
ArnoldBOC@hotmail.com

[t_niehoff]

Wing Chun Competition
- For the third year in a row, a Wing Chun Grand Champion Competition will be offered to Wing Chun division competitors. Participants can compete in one of four events: forms, Chi Sau, Dummy, or Sparring. Participants must compete in all four events to be eligible for the Grand Champion competition - which features a cash prize. PT

How terribly sad . . . this is what an esteemed fighting method has come to. Can we sink any lower? The organizers and participants should be ashamed of themsleves IMHO. TN

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
How terribly sad . . . this is what an esteemed fighting method has come to. Can we sink any lower? The organizers and participants should be ashamed of themsleves IMHO. TN
Terence,
What are you objecting to? The competition? The Cash prize? Both? While I'm not a big fan of these competitions myself, I don't object to them. They can be done reasonably well. To each his own.

Matrix

[yuanfen]

While I'm not a big fan of these competitions myself, I don't object to them.(Matrix)

this is what an esteemed fighting method has come to. Can we sink any lower?(Terence)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can agree with both of the above.

There has to be room for mirth.

Karate and TKD used to have their Battle of Atlanta (forms. weapons and sparring), From
Le Bon's(?) work "the Crowd" ...there goes the crowd- I am the leader-we must follow them.

Viva capitalism--- from the rice bowl to kajing kajing kajing.-
never mind the other jings.

its yuanfen

[Chango]

Terence,
No one said that these contest are measures of someones WCK skills. each event seems to focus on different aspects of being a martial artist in general WCK is just the context. Forms demonstrate artistic expression and showmanship. Chi sao contest- ones ability to apply some WCK concepts with in a few set rules and guidlines. Dummy - one's ability to express the set via memory and flow energy etc... Sparring- can you operate well enough through the different rages and score a few points with out getting scored on?! It's all in good fun applying some WCK and enjoying the few days. It would be very silly to assume that this is why anyone does WCK. It's just a format where one can apply some WCK and interact with others with the same passion. Nothing more then just that Terence. ;) I doubt you will ever hear some one say "before we fight it is only fare that I warn you that I was Arnolds classic grand Champion of 2003" (while rolling up sleeves) ROFLOL!! Even you can see the humor in that one!

I'm going for the simple fact that I enjoy watching all of the different martial arts in one place. I also find it fun to interact with other WCK men/ women. To be honest I would have liked to competed myself but I have had a really bad case of strept (sp?) :( and I'm just now finishing the antibiotics. well in a few days. So it will take me a few weeks to fully recover from this stuff. ;)

[t_niehoff]

Matrix writes:

What are you objecting to? The competition? The Cash prize? Both? While I'm not a big fan of these competitions myself, I don't object to them. They can be done reasonably well. To each his own. M

OK . . . sure, to each their own; some people enjoy role playing and fantasy games -- I just don't happen to think that's what WCK is about. TN

-----------------

Chango writes:

No one said that these contest are measures of someones WCK skills. C

You're correct that it doesn't measure skill in WCK. TN

It's all in good fun applying some WCK and enjoying the few days. It would be very silly to assume that this is why anyone does WCK. It's just a format where one can apply some WCK and interact with others with the same passion. Nothing more then just that Terence. C

IMHO someone who participates in competitions involving WCK forms and drills, including chi sao, has at a fundamental level a mistaken and flawed idea of the art (i.e., hasn't a clue about WCK is about). But then, I realize that McKwoons need medals and trophies to put in display cases . . . . ;) TN

Terence

[Chango]

Terence.
Once again you seem to have hang ups about competitions. I'm not sure who or where you got burned in the past but man you seem to have had some bad experiences. I'm not sure these issues can be solved here. Maybe you should make a honest attempt?

<snip>IMHO someone who participates in competitions involving WCK forms and drills, including chi sao, has at a fundamental level a mistaken and flawed idea of the art (i.e., hasn't a clue about WCK is about).

-- You can tell all of this because someone takes part in a few events for fun? please explain. LOL! I think you take these things far to seriously. No one gets killed or injured for the most part. I can say from my experiences that friendships come out of it. It's no different then this forum competitions just have a physical aspect. It seems that you have no problem with internet chi sao contest! LOL! do you have a problem in the physical realm? I don't know Tererence! It's just meeting up throwing a few kicks and punches in the air, at each other, and at a dummy and discuss perspectives on WCK! Oh yeah someone get's a few medals and trophies and some cash back that was spent getting there. Also the a few other martial arts systems get to see a few different families and perspectives on WCK. Sounds like a win/win situation to me. Terence don't be afraid you won't get hurt. No one will attack you or attempt to change your aready made up mind. You seem to take yourself far to seriously. Bulk fibre does wonders for this Terence! ROFLOL!

<snip>But then, I realize that McKwoons need medals and trophies to put in display cases . . . . TN


--(stretch and Yawn) Not today Terence it's a very tired stance on competitions. Any one that signs up for a WCK program becuase of a few trophies or metals can be fooled just as easily by metals purchased from a trophie shop. Come on man kill all of these false assumptions about competitions. don't be afraid. the rest of the WCK community will not bite you. I don't think there is a "Mike Tyson" family style of WCK. Even if there was just wear wrestling head gear! LOL!

On a serious note maybe you have been burned in the past. But this is not the intent of this competition. Maybe you can share with us how you got burned in the past. Maybe even offer a place for you and that person to work out any misunderstandings that you've had in the past. You seem to carry alot of anger or negative feelings tward competitions. Maybe you could explain so we can understand. I have no issue if someone says this is not their thing or they don't feel it helps the public to understand more about WCK. I have had many people from Japanese and Korean arts and others approach me at such events asking for more information. As a matter of fact one guy a few years ago went to sign up for classes at a WT kwoon and has stuck at it last I heard from him. So you will understand when I say I don't think you have enough information or experiences with these events to make the calls that you are. I hope this helps you see things in a different light.

Chango (saat geng sau)

[t_niehoff]

Chango,

I give my informed opinion -- if you have trouble understanding them why not ask questions instead of making personal attacks like:

I'm not sure who or where you got burned in the past but man you seem to have had some bad experiences. I'm not sure these issues can be solved here. Maybe you should make a honest attempt? C

or

Terence don't be afraid you won't get hurt. No one will attack you or attempt to change your aready made up mind. You seem to take yourself far to seriously. Bulk fibre does wonders for this. C

or

On a serious note maybe you have been burned in the past. But this is not the intent of this competition. Maybe you can share with us how you got burned in the past. Maybe even offer a place for you and that person to work out any misunderstandings that you've had in the past. You seem to carry alot of anger or negative feelings tward competitions. C

or

It seems that you have no problem with internet chi sao contest! LOL! do you have a problem in the physical realm? C

or

So you will understand when I say I don't think you have enough information or experiences with these events to make the calls that you are. C

or the rest of your ludicrous attempts. As usual, you miss the whole point. TN

It is really simple: *these types of competitions* having nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with WCK, not with developing WCK skills, and not with demonstrating WCK skills. In fact, IMO they are harmful to WCK generally (as all they demonstrate is "clown WCK" and I, for one, don't think that is how we want to portray ourselves) and to the practitioner specifically (since they are obviously focusing on silly things). If you and your buddies want to role play and play games, and have fun, and make friends, and get hugs, and earn medals, good for you and your buddies. Maybe you should take up something besides a fighting method, something like TKD -- or maybe you already have? TN

Terence

[Geezer]

Passing_through Wrote>

Wing Chun to be featured at 2003 Arnold Battle of Columbus

This might get more of the Non-MA interested in WCK???

t_niehoff Wrote>

How terribly sad . . . this is what an esteemed fighting method has come to. Can we sink any lower? The organizers and participants should be ashamed of themsleves

Why??, because they're promoting something they feel very strongly about:confused: if they're taking what they love and live to the public and showing it for what it is, where's the harm:confused:

t_niehoff Wrote>

It is really simple: *these types of competitions* having nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with WCK, not with developing WCK skills, and not with demonstrating WCK skills.

How many competitions have "You" actually participated in:confused:, now please don't take what I'm about to write the wrong way, but you strike me as a very boring person to meet face to face;)

Sheldon

[Chango]

Terence,
<snip> It is really simple: *these types of competitions* having nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with WCK, not with developing WCK skills, and not with demonstrating WCK skills. In fact, IMO they are harmful to WCK generally (as all they demonstrate is "clown WCK" and I, for one, don't think that is how we want to portray ourselves) and to the practitioner specifically (since they are obviously focusing on silly things).

-- first of all not all competitions are the same. Second how do you know any of this? what competition have you been in? LOL!
"Clown WCK" This only demonstrates your lack of knowlege on the subject. If you have never been in one how do you know what is being focused on?


<snip> If you and your buddies want to role play and play games, and have fun, and make friends, and get hugs, and earn medals, good for you and your buddies. Maybe you should take up something besides a fighting method, something like TKD -- or maybe you already have? TN

So Mr armchair quarter back how would you change these competitions? please entertain us with how you feel that you can move these to something that envolves the development of "WCK skills" LOL! by the way define the context needed to help develop your "WCK Skills" LOL! do you read your own post? News flash Terence WCK can be expressed and experienced out side of Master and/or friendship siminars and your Sifu telling you what other systems are doing. this is just another way for different WCK martial artist to come together have fun and exchange ideas. If you have a problem with that Terence then you read way to much into this man. No one said they go to these contest to develope thier WCK skill. It is just another great opertunity for WCK people to get together. If you feel that is "clown WC" then maybe you might want to rethink what you are looking to come from these competitions. If you take that personal well personal I could care less!:rolleyes:
It's pretty silly that you think some one choosing to do competitions somehow hurts WCK! I think your method of attacking the competitions and being negative hurts WCK alot more. :D

If you feel like someone has burned you in the past and you don't feel comfortable enough to discuss it. Then find a professional with a nice comfy couch and start from the beggining. Your spouting off and being negative only reflects on you. I know not all people are in favor of competitions that can be respected. But when you attack those that choose to participate you are out of line. If you don't like it do something to change it. if you choose not to then stop whining.

[Phil Redmond]

That's what it is Terence, an opinion. You know what they say about opinions.....everyone has one. I still can't get over your need to feel that you are "THE" authority on WCK. Everyone can't think like you. Does that make others less than you? Are your sifus such great fighters and martial artists that you feel superior to the rest of us? What about the gathering that you wanted people to come to prove who was the best? Did it ever happen? If so, was the winner the best martist ever? You can win one day and lose that next in the real world. You seem to need to prove your worth. Don't worry. God loves us all equally.
Phillip

[Chango]

Phil,
I agree 100% I'm not sure Terence is aware that he comes off this way.

Chango (saat geng sau) :cool:

[Mckind13]

I have to agree with Terence.

I did in my WCK infancy enter some competitions and didn't gain allot except to know that this was not the path that my Wing Chun should take.

Wing Chun in a standardized competition in the manner I have seen before does seem to do a great disservice to our system.

There is a definite change in focus when competition is involved.

When a school/system trains for these types of events, no matter how much they want to focus on other things there is a split in interest between functional effective WCK and what the judges want to see. Study Wu Shu or TKD or whatever. WCK is a combat system and needs to be trained as such.

<Chango wrote>News flash Terence WCK can be expressed and experienced out side of Master and/or friendship seminars and your Sifu telling you what other systems are doing.

News flash Chango, when your ability to discuss or your ideas are critically questioned you turn to personal insult.

Terrence is stating a well founded opinion. I wonder if your opinions are as well founded. I know that Terence critically analyzes and examines his art and his thinking on a subject before forming his opinion. I also know that we, as students of "Sifu" are encouraged to explore, debate and question any point we wish.

So if you really think that Terence is being given his opinion by someone else then it should be easy for you to use your massive intellectual capacity to debate with him instead of resorting to insult, innuendo and attack.

David

[reneritchie]

Here's my opinion(s) for what they're worth:

I think picnics are more productive than karate or tkd style tournaments. People can eat, chi sao, spar, get to know each other, and avoid politics and strange rules. And I think demo's a better way to show the art at such galas. I've competed in judo, karate, and grappling tournaments and while I enjoy them, I don't consider them MA, or what goes on in them useful fighting skill. Just another sport like basketball or golf.

So, to those who attend, more power to you. Have fun, play safe, try to avoid the BS and make friends. To those organizing them, please do your best to show the art in a positive, productive light.

To the rest of the people on this thread, while so busy pointing the fingers at each other, you resort to petty personal attacks out of either inability to form a cohesive argument, or transparent old grudges (and for those reading this thinking it applies to everyone else, it applies to you to - takes two to tango, after all). Please discuss the issues, not the discussion.

[t_niehoff]

Chango, Phil,

I don't feel superior or think that I'm superior to anyone -- nor do I fantasize, for example, that I practice some "superior, original form of WCK" as some do, ;) nor do I put titles in front of my name, make grandiose claims, etc. My skills or knowledge shouldn't be even an issue in this discussion (except that folks like to make things personal when they can't support their position logically). TN

Perhaps instead of making personal attacks you both might instead tell us how "form competition" has any place in WCK? IMO WCK isn't about how it looks but how we can make it work; it's not about "artistic expression." Or how chi sao (a cooperative drill) can be a competition? Or how "point sparring" tests one's ability to use wCK, i.e., fight (I thought this way of thinking was refuted with the advent of full-contact bouts in the 60's!). I can support my position with logic, common sense, and experience. Can you? Since I expect neither of you can, perhaps you'll next want to say something about my mother. ;) TN

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
OK . . . sure, to each their own; some people enjoy role playing and fantasy games -- I just don't happen to think that's what WCK is about. TN No doubt about it. I have not participated in any WC competitions, but have been a spectator a time or two. I find the various interpretations of the forms by different famalies to be interesting. Chi Sao competitions seem to turn into shoving matches, but hey who doesn't like to see a well executed Dummy form or Pah Chum Do? Most important of all, you can get to meet new people, discuss Wing Chun concepts, make new friends. Now that's valuable! It's a question of taking something positive out the experience. Eat the chicken, spit out the bones. ;)

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I've competed in judo, karate, and grappling tournaments and while I enjoy them, I don't consider them MA, or what goes on in them useful fighting skill. Just another sport like basketball or golf.
I think this is one point on which I would have to disagree. I know I got hammered for it the last time, but equating karate, and grappling to basketball and golf is not warranted, IMO. Like you Rene, I have competed in tournaments (not WC), and it can be a real mixed bag. Some have been total shams, with judging that would make Figure Skating look legit. Others have been knock-down drag-out, last one standing wins, events. Let's not paint them all with the same broad brush. Same goes for these other "martial arts". Believe it or not, there are even TKD fighters who would take you to task in a fighting situation.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[t_niehoff]

Matrix wrote:

I have not participated in any WC competitions, but have been a spectator a time or two. I find the various interpretations of the forms by different famalies to be interesting. Chi Sao competitions seem to turn into shoving matches, but hey who doesn't like to see a well executed Dummy form or Pah Chum Do? Most important of all, you can get to meet new people, discuss Wing Chun concepts, make new friends. Now that's valuable! It's a question of taking something positive out the experience. Eat the chicken, spit out the bones. M

Why then have a *competition* in the first place? Why not just get together, where different lineages can demonstrate their forms, we can do chi sao or san sao, talk WCK, etc. (I sort of recall that is what the Friendship Seminars were supposed to be about.)? My point is that when WCK tries to go the route of (bad) karate or (bad) tai ji, what we end up with is even worse WCK. While I appreciate your suggestion to make something postive out of the experience, IMO it is sort of like saying use the opportunity of your ship sinking to take a bath! There are better ways . . . . :) TN

Terence

[Geezer]

t_niehoff Wrote>

Or how "point sparring" tests one's ability to use wCK, i.e., fight (I thought this way of thinking was refuted with the advent of full-contact bouts in the 60's!). I can support my position with logic, common sense, and experience.

Don't they offer a full contact competition as well, I thought they offered everything at these events:confused: and surely people would love the chance to compete against TKD, Karate or other styles of KF;confused:
t_niehoff, if you had the chance to test "your skills" in a supervised envoirement would "you" not think this is a good arena to try out your WCK:confused: at the end of the day no-one gets seriously hurt;) only maybe a few egos;)

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Jeremy or Chango,

How do you judge WCK forms? Is there a formal/offical set of criteria?

[reneritchie]

think this is one point on which I would have to disagree. I know I got hammered for it the last time, but equating karate, and grappling to basketball and golf is not warranted,

Hey, at least I'm not equating Jiudo to ballet or badminton ;) Seriously, though, it's not an insult. Some people enjoy physical competition. Some like a lot of contact like rugby or football, some none like golf (which I don't play for that reason - I would if you could tackle!). Some like sub wrestling, MMA, or point sparring. (Though perhaps it's unfair to basketball or golf which are often far better organized and much, much for financially rewarding).


Like you Rene, I have competed in tournaments (not WC), and it can be a real mixed bag.

Did you see those folks in the hakama and neon Gi with the hip hop in the middle of the kata? What was that about?


Believe it or not, there are even TKD fighters who would take you to task in a fighting situation.

There are likely some basketball players and golfers (drunken Scotts ;) ) who could kick my butt too. I've sparred competitive level TKD people, and under their rules I don't do that well. When it's not their rules, though, it's a different story, and unfortunately, the rules and the neural pathways they establish in their brains aren't likely to be of benefit in real MA situations (though they may be able to fight anyway, like the basketball players or golfers... 8P )

RR

[reneritchie]

At the end of the day, tournaments are about who better operates under the rules of the event, nothing else. Change the rules, you almost certainly change the winner (take a look at MMA or Abu Dhabi sometime, or San Shou when the PRC takes out or puts in elbows at the last minute and screws up the intense training other competitors have gone through). That, IMHO, is the biggest drawback.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hey, at least I'm not equating Jiudo to ballet or badminton ;) Seriously, though, it's not an insult. Some people enjoy physical competition. Some like a lot of contact like rugby or football, some none like golf (which I don't play for that reason - I would if you could tackle!). Some like sub wrestling, MMA, or point sparring. (Though perhaps it's unfair to basketball or golf which are often far better organized and much, much for financially rewarding).? Nobody said anything about point sparring! I definitely draw the line there. It's a joke. End of discussion. However, grappling and karate do not need to fall into that category, and neither does TKD for that matter.

Did you see those folks in the hakama and neon Gi with the hip hop in the middle of the kata? What was that about? I sure did. They were right next to the glow in the dark nanchaku's and the karate-Elvis impersonators. What's it all about? My guess would be..................Giant plastic trophies.

There are likely some basketball players and golfers (drunken Scotts ;) ) who could kick my butt too. I've sparred competitive level TKD people, and under their rules I don't do that well. When it's not their rules, though, it's a different story, Sure. How would you deal with a one metric ton Fat Bast'rd or a Shaq Attack? ;)
As for TKD sparring, the rules drove me crazy. Having been a kickboxer in the past, this "no punching to the head" stuff drove me to distraction. You can learn to deal with that, but it leads to serious bad habits that will cost you heavily in a self-defence situation, IMO. More advanced TKD sparring (possibly an oxymoron) uses headgear, gloves and chest protector. Some of these people, and I repeat some, play for keeps. So watch out for your head and ribs. My point is simply that these same people may end up facing you in a confrontation. Don't make the mistake of thinking..............."Hey. it's not a real martial art". That may be your last thought before someone turns off the lights.

Matrix

[yuanfen]

Matrix asks:Sure. How would you deal with a one metric ton Fat Bast'rd or a Shaq Attack?
------------------------------------------------------------
How much money involved?
Just curious.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Why then have a *competition* in the first place? Why not just get together, where different lineages can demonstrate their forms, we can do chi sao or san sao, talk WCK, etc. (I sort of recall that is what the Friendship Seminars were supposed to be about.)? For the same reason we have professional sport. Something about competition attracts people. We are competitive by nature, and we seek to test our skills against like minded individuals. It's something that humans have done that pre-dates modern civilization.
I'm all for Friendship Seminars and the like, but there were times in my life when a good old fashion slug fest was what I was looking for. Competitions have a different dynamic to them. They have an edge that is more attuned to the martial nature of martial arts, or so it appears to be. I was younger and more foolish then, but they served a purpose in those times.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Matrix asks:Sure. How would you deal with a one metric ton Fat Bast'rd or a Shaq Attack?
------------------------------------------------------------
How much money involved?
Just curious. I don't know, but maybe we can give Don King a call and see what he can arrange.
By the way, what's your price? Just curious ;)

Matrix

[yuanfen]

Negotiable<g>. But no gloves, mats or cages or referees
or legal implications. And no hidden payoff s for Don King

[Chango]

The information has been posted about the competition and following siminar if you choose to come out. I will see you there and it will be a good time. From the VTM's position everything is in a positive light. For those that wish to offer more negativitity I will just say that I don't share your point of view.

David and Terence,
I have to admit I have seen and been to some bad competitions. I have also ran into people that seem to think that this somehow hurts other's views on WCK. So I understand why you feel the way that you do. However I have also been to a few competitions where things turned out pretty well and alot of people benifited and exchanged ideas. I guess this is just a matter of how you view things. I guess I've seen more of these events and I carry much less luggage. may be it's a much smaller issue "Paper or plastic" fellas? some how I get the feeling that if myself or another member of the VTM post for plastic you fellas would have a strong arguement for paper. Or if we went with paper you both would suddenly become tree huggers! LOL! who knows I could be wrong after all it's just my "well founded opinion" LOL!

<snip>So if you really think that Terence is being given his opinion by someone else then it should be easy for you to use your massive intellectual capacity to debate with him instead of resorting to insult, innuendo and attack.

David I don't recall saying that "Terence is being given his opinion by someone else" But that could be a possiblity! But to be honest it really isn't that important. So we get the point you fellas think if some one does a competition that "has nothing to do with WCK" as it was put it some how hurts WCK. So I question the logic flow here.

1. if the person that is in the competition does not know enough about real WCK that he/she gets the wrong idea about WCK?
2. People watch these competitions without further investigation and think this is what WCK is all about. But if they did not bother to go beyond the first glance wouldn't they have the wrong idea any why?
3. So this being a sport and not the "combat art" that you refer to when do you practice your "combat art" ? And do you beat each other up with out warning like real combat? For you old pink panther fans "Kato expect it when you least expect it!"
4. I don't recall anyone making a case for these competitions having all WCK Skills in them. So what's the problem? maybe a good yanni CD (if there is a such of thing) a glass of warm milk and a candle will help you lighten up fellas. It's just a friendly competition not proving anything just getting togerher and having fun. I know that may not meet your standards but that's your issue not mine. So you choose not to participate no one is passing judgement on you or your skills. :) Happy training gentlemen!


Every one else I hope to see you there! it's always a good time to get together with fellow WCK practitioners! It's also fun to watch the other disciplines and the body builders next door! it's one of the largest events of it's kind.

Chango (Saat geng sau)

[Mckind13]

Hi Chango,

As far as the paper and plastic view goes, I have on occasions had views opposite Terence and yes once or twice even agreed with you ;) . I stated my opinion though and it still stands that training for what a judge wants to see or what fits the rules can be detrimental to an art. To often I have met people who train for both competition and "self defense", but it always seems to come out as the former when we touch hands.

I do train a method of combat. I train with the idea of destroying my opponents’ ability to fight and I train with the idea of winning no matter what. We hear about how some old school TKD guys were tough and could really fight but 99.9% of the stuff out there is point sparring BS and has little direct application toward fighting. I could see how a school in the name of gaining more students, making the art more applicable to people who want to compete or in the interest of marketing could lead Wing Chun down a road of ruin. And while there might still remain a group that trains it with the intent for witch it was conceived, I could also see how it could become like modern TKD.

David McKinnon

[Chango]

Hello David,
I can honestly say that this is more in the idea of the promotion of WCK as a whole. There are so many arts and systems there being represented coming together for friendly competition. WCK has been offered an opertunity to have representation. It just so happens that this format is in the realm of sport. I know some people like yourself does not agree that WCK has the ability to evolve to be included in this event. But there are those of us that disagree. So instead of just talking about it we have decieded to move forward and show how it can evolve. It is not our intention to change WCK to this type of training. Considering WCK's lack of tournament sucess and participation I would find it a very hard sale as a competition driven art. Or should I say not a very smart marketing stratagy. But I do know that alot of different families of WCK attend and I have experienced alot from this. It is quite interesting how diffent each Country views WCK!

[yuanfen]

Matrix- my real point about my Shaq comment was not macho in its roots. It deals with attitude- if someone is really attcking you- you gotta do what you gotta do (Shane?)- you dont ask for the ID
of the opponent- though you do notice what you notice....little things.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Terence,
Remember when you said you were going to have a gathering where WCK people could fight or go sao? Did it ever happen? Your "Gathering" was supposed to give WCK people a chance to try each other out. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Can you tell me the difference between the WCK competition and your gathering? I think I remember you saying that you wanted no holds barred rules. I remember saying to you that to me no holds barred means anything goes like in the real world. Were there any rules in your gathering? If so, what makes what you proposed different from another WCK competition? I'm simply asking and not trying to be rude.
Phil

[canglong]

Yes, Phil Redmond, that is exactly what I was wondering too. Gor sau and chi sau didn't sound that far apart from one another so I was wondering what might be considered the right setting to enlist the proper rules of engagement? Of all the many gatherings posted to this forum this is the only one that is being ridiculed for wanting participants to chi sau most of the time its the other way around.

[planetwc]

It should be about getting to a point of being able to hold their own in MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo style events and not insular, inbred forms competitions.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts face nothing but derision from the MMA world for the lack of producing anyone who can fight and hold their own in an MMA event.

While it is true that the approach to training of "combat atheletes" is different, it should be possible to construct a training program where Wing Chun can show what it can do against someone who is crosstrained in BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing/Wrestling.

And the only way THAT is going to happen is if current day Wing Chun students learn to deal with the current attacks of MMA fighters and learn situationally to deal with loss of structure which results in them being taken down to the ground.

I've heard that EBMAS is starting their own internal effort along these lines with the eventual goal of forwarding fighters to compete in MMA events. More power to them.

If Wing Chun practioners really believe themselves to be on the cutting edge of fighting then should there not be a way to train and compete in a venue where Wing Chun can show that it can deal with the latest in combat systems?

These "Wing Chun competitions" seem so incestual to me. "Chi Sau" competitions which is an oxymoron to begin with. If nothing else the instructors should be figuring out how to adapt Wing Chun to deal with MMA fighting rather than pitting 2 WC guys against each other in a sensitivity drill.

Mind you I'm well past any time of competing in NHB myself, but shouldn't we be setting things up for success in the real world?

The folks who train to fight nowadays don't do "Point TKD" or "Point Karate", they will strike and they will also attempt ground and pound or submission.

Anyone who has appeared in a sport fighting/MMA event with claims of a Wing Chun background has gotten a beat down.

Some may bring up the tired old arguments about WC being too "lethal" :rolleyes: to unleash on these poor souls. Yet in all instances the WC guys had their heads handed to them and got BEATEN UP. No chance for finger jabs, throat strikes, leg destructions. etc. etc. etc.

Why is it that the MMA community can unleash a beating on someone without the use of said techniques and we seemingly have no one who can counter them and deal out a beating in return?

If we are the "weapon of mass destruction" why didn't any of the people so far even get a CHANCE to deploy their deadly techniques? And don't you think people in other systems have similar "deadly" techniques as well? None of them fared any better either.

It seems to me that these "Wing Chun competitions" are more of the same divisive activities which we engage in, rather than something which shows off the unity and effectiveness of our art to the outside world.

[Chango]

David Williams,
I can appreciate your point of view on this one. How ever the point of having this competition of forms, dummy, chi sao and continuous sparing is to get WCK people together and maybe exchange ideas and build friendships. however on the MMA front I agree I personally think alot of martial artist get trapped into training a certain way that only compliments thier system but not consistant with the realities of different attacks and methods. I agree the "to deadly" defense has gotten really weak. I find that in some cases the denial runs so deep that some say the "no rules platform favors the other arts!" I strongly believe that a well rounded fighter no matter what discipline should be exposed to all of realities of combat and work to be confortable in all ranges and situations. Good point David W!!!

Chango

[reneritchie]

Wow, PlanetWC just ground and pounded the correctness into this thread...

[John Weiland]

I think the KFO Wing Chun forum is exactly the place for posting announcements such as this one. Appropriate comments might include clarification of time, place, and accomodations. But, why does a simple announcement lead to such non-linear discussions?

Will every new announcement in the future require a defense of the validity of Wing Chun? Crikees! Start a new thread, for heaven's sake. Each holder of a seminar or tournament shouldn't bear the brunt of attacks on the state of Wing Chun.

Good luck to all the participants in the 2003 Arnold Battle of Columbus.

[canglong]

The hard and the soft the fa kuen and the bui ji we are fortunate to study such a complex and beautiful art that we should be willing to share it with others outside of a death match. Yes Chango is right when he say " I strongly believe that a well rounded fighter no matter what discipline should be exposed to all of realities of combat and work to be confortable in all ranges and situations." Though it would seem that MMA/NHB have their place at the same time so does a respectable gathering of practitioners coming together to perform SNT, dummy forms, sparring, chi sau and more...

Isn't performing the subtleties, the grace the power, the fluidity of wing chun in front of an audience that may not have seen it before a good thing.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Matrix- my real point about my Shaq comment was not macho in its roots. It deals with attitude- if someone is really attcking you- you gotta do what you gotta do ...... Joy,
I definitely agree with your attitude of taking care of business, regardless of who's coming at you. You can exchange business cards later if that's what you want to do. There is a time to seriously focus your attention on the business at hand, and I expect that in the end this is largely why many of us train. I'll leave the machismo and melodrama to Hollywood.

I like to joke around from time to time, so I throw out the odd comment. Unfortunately, some people don't share my sense of humour, but I must admit my timing is sometimes off. :o I just don't like to take myself too seriously, that's all. Besides, sometimes laughter is the best medicine.

I know it's strange, since I don't really know you, but I never interpreted your comment as "macho". I mean that in the most sincere and positive way possible. It's odd how you can build an impression of someone based on a series of typed messages on a forum such as this. :)

Best Regards,
Matrix

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Wing Chun Competition .... How terribly sad . . . this is what an esteemed fighting method has come to. Can we sink any lower? The organizers and participants should be ashamed of themsleves IMHO. TN

Terence

I'm a little late in posting on this thread but here it is anyway.

Terence didn't you openly invite people to go to your school and test the skills you have? I also remember you saying that at seminars, instructors should touch hands to demonstrate that they indeed have skill. Those two statements alone are indicitive of a few things but one for sure is that you favor competiton. I find it amazing that you would take the position that you have.

That was until I read my Sibok Chango's "paper or plastic" analogy then I understood your position a little better.

For me I see competitions as a good thing for those who wish to participate. I'm sure each participant takes away something positive from the experience.

Also I find it hard to believe that competitions are detrimental to the future of Wing Chun. But if they prove to be you should have nothing to worry about because, obviously you aren't attending. So when everyone else is feeling the wrath of Wing Chun competitions you'll be unaffected.

Anways good luck to all those who participate!!

-David

[t_niehoff]

desertwingchun2 writes: Terence didn't you openly invite people to go to your school and test the skills you have? I also remember you saying that at seminars, instructors should touch hands to demonstrate that they indeed have skill. Those two statements alone are indicitive of a few things but one for sure is that you favor competiton. I find it amazing that you would take the position that you have. DW2

I have no problem with competition; what I have a problem with is competition in things that aren't by nature competitive (like WCK forms, chi sao, the dummy). If you want to measure your performance in WCK then do it -- fight (apply your WCK against persons offering you real resistance).
------------------
rr writes: Wow, PlanetWC just ground and pounded the correctness into this thread... RR

Agreed. TN
-----------------

philredmond wrote:

Remember when you said you were going to have a gathering where WCK people could fight or go sao? Did it ever happen? Your "Gathering" was supposed to give WCK people a chance to try each other out. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Can you tell me the difference between the WCK competition and your gathering? PR

You really can't see the difference between biemo and form/chi sao competitions? ;) Yes, it happened. We made it smaller than I had originally planned thanks in part to Marc Denny's - of the Dog Bros. - advice and also because most WCK people took one of three approaches: 1. "I'd like to watch, not participate" (the observer); 2. "What? Fight? Are you crazy?" (speaks for itself); and 3. "What are the rules? Who will ref? Etc." (the tournament competitor). As I recall, you at least were in the last category, although you didn't seem to grasp the idea that it wasn't a competition -- it wasn't a win-lose thing, but an experience thing. Don't worry, we'll do it again. :) And anyone can pay me a visit anytime. I'm not very good but believe that the only way to measure our progress and to actually learn to apply our skills is by actually meeting resisting opponents (fight). As such, I'm always willing to learn. TN

Terence

[Phil Redmond]

Terence, if you say I didn't "grasp" that your gathering wasn't a competition it's because of the way it was announced. My kung fu brother Keith Mazza and I wanted to participate. You said something about no holds barred rules. Even in no holds barred events there are limits. We wanted specifics but I never got anything conclusive from you in that regard. I fought and trained full contact. My trainer was Yoel Judah, so contact events don't phase me. I love it.
BTW, I didn't know that the Ohio tournament only had chi sao and forms. I thought there would be sparring also. So you are right. Fighting and forms are different animals. The chi sao thing might not be too bad though. It's good to practice with people outside of your home school. You can easily get too used to your classmates chi sao.
Phil

[Chango]

The Ohio tournement will offer continuous sparring as well! None the less it will be great to see different people there. It should be fun. :D

[Savi]

Hi Mr. Redmond,

There is sparring at the Arnold Battle of Columbus. The previous two years of the event involved Wing Chun forms, Chi Sau, and full contact sparring.

Here are the results from the past two years events...

March 2-4, 2001
http://home.vtmuseum.org/community/competitions/boc2001.php

February 22-24, 2002
http://home.vtmuseum.org/community/competitions/arnold2002.php

Thanks,
-Savi.

[kj]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Terence, if you say I didn't "grasp" ...

Other than the benefit of eliciting reactions, I for one fail to see the constructive value of frequent and implicit sorts of ad hominem assertions regardless of topic or addressee. Conversation need not carry that kind of baggage to be effective.

Civil and honest dialog is not generally improved in the long term through degrading relationships or alienating others. In some ways, how we talk to each other is as important as what we say. IMHO, of course.

BTW, I don't mean to imply that Terence is the only one who does this; the above reference is merely an example. There are plenty of others here and elsewhere who frequently resort to similar tactics, albeit usually with less skill or finesse.

I too have my full share of improvement opportunities, so sharing my observation without casting stones. "Process improvement" is central to my profession, so I tend to notice a lot about how things work.

I am still working on being less verbose, for example, with a real possibility I many never fully nail that one, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phil Redmond]

David, I don't know who you are but a lot of WC people should read your post. We have to get out of that, "we are elite" mode. I'm tired of my friends in other martial arts making derogatory comments about kung fu in general and "pitty pat" WC. My remedy for that is a tune up.
Phil

[canglong]

Excellent post Kathy Jo and point welll taken here.

[planetwc]

Hi Phil,

We've never met in person, but we HAVE chatted over email about websites, links and what not. I run www.wingchun.com.

I think many of us (myself included) went through the "we are elite" and living vicariously through the skills of our sifu. :rolleyes:

Anyway time passed and you get more perspective on these kinds of things. Perhaps it is a combination of being a judgemental person to begin with coupled with the sort of arrogance that starts to come out of someone as you in reality make baby steps in the skill department. I used to think this was a disease that just infected Wing Chun students, but it seems clear that it is more just a part of the human condition and you can find this in all the other arts as well.

The only difference now is that we Kung Fu/Wing Chun guys are back to the "sick men of MMA" to coin a phrase (as opposed to the sick men of Asia appelation given to China at one point). We get no respect from the MMA crowd cause no one has been able to step up and deliver. :(

I'm personally too old for it and no where near aggressive enough--aside from lacking the skills as well.

That said I do wish those who participate at the tournament well, hope they have fun as well. I will continue to hope that in future Wing Chun as a communitiy will start to produce some formidable fighters who can take to the MMA crowd and prevail.

Here's to hoping!

Regards,

David


Originally posted by Phil Redmond
David, I don't know who you are but a lot of WC people should read your post. We have to get out of that, "we are elite" mode. I'm tired of my friends in other martial arts making derogatory comments about kung fu in general and "pitty pat" WC. My remedy for that is a tune up.
Phil

[KenWingJitsu]

i'm all for seeing some wing chun sparring. How else can you develop people who can actually FIGHT?

[t_niehoff]

KJ writes:

Other than the benefit of eliciting reactions, I for one fail to see the constructive value of frequent and implicit sorts of ad hominem assertions regardless of topic or addressee. Conversation need not carry that kind of baggage to be effective. KJ

Since you aren't aware of the background of the discussion between Phil and myself, perhaps you shouldn't sit in judgment. As it is, I tried again and again to explain to Phil with private emails how my event was not intended as a competition (that there would be no winners and losers) but rather was an opportunity for personal growth (everyone is a winner); and btw, this was also discussed over and over again on the WCML. In my view, Phil just didn't seem to get what I was proposing (hence why I said "he didn't grasp the point"); I attributed it to his "tournament days". I decided not to invite him as I didn't want (and I don't know if this was the case or not, but didn't want to have to deal with it if it was; this is was Marc Denny's advice) any "hot dogs" trying to turn the event into some ego-driven competition, or to show that they had a "superior lineage", etc. I wanted things to run smoothly the first time out. TN

Civil and honest dialog is not generally improved in the long term through degrading relationships or alienating others. In some ways, how we talk to each other is as important as what we say. IMHO, of course. KJ

First, I'm always honest -- and I say the same things to people's face that I say behind their backs. Not everyone here can say the same, can they KJ? ;) Second, I tend to be blunt and direct; I'm not trying to make everyone "feel good" about themselves, I'm here to discuss WCK. IMHO directness and bluntness are good qualities; falseness, in any form, is not a good quality. TN

BTW, I don't mean to imply that Terence is the only one who does this; the above reference is merely an example. There are plenty of others here and elsewhere who frequently resort to similar tactics, albeit usually with less skill or finesse. KJ

I find it surprising that you pick out my reference to Phil "not grasping" something and call it an "ad hoiminem assertions" (especially when there are so many references that really meet the definition); would not your call for civility using my name also be an "ad hominem assertion"? ;) Merely saying someone didn't grasp/get the point of your discussion is not in my book as ad hominem attack -- particularly if it is true! Likewise I don't take your call for me to be more "civil" an ad hominem attack (even though it is IMO misplaced -- ooh, was that an ad hominem attack too? Was I too rough in pointing it out? ;) ). TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Second, I tend to be blunt and direct; I'm not trying to make everyone "feel good" about themselves, I'm here to discuss WCK.

I appreciate your approach. I find it invaluable to developing my own skill (again, the writer's workshop analogy). Obviously, not everyone does. Not everyone likes mine either (surprise surprise).

FWIW, tying in to my post on another thread, I personally try to adjust myself to the person with whom I'm speaking. Most people, like it or admit it or not, cannot deal with blunt assertion (nevermind whether it is right or wrong for the moment).

To me, as I've oft said, discussion is like WCK. The other party tells me how to talk to them. If I insist on using one method, I will not be able to exchange productively with all the different personality types here.

KJ once told me my biggest problem online was that I assumed everyone was as coldly rational as I was and able to sort information in as detached a manner (she said it nicer, though 8) ). She was correct, and when I understood that, my frustration level dropped considerably (at least most times ;) ) Now I relax, have fun, flow.

I already know what I know, I wanna find out what everyone else knows. And to do that, I've gotta get 'em talking. And if it turns out I really hate what they know - hey, good for me, means there's less chance they can mug me effectively one day.

[John Weiland]

Anyone planning to go the 2003 Arnold Battle of Columbus? What are your expectations and personal goals in going?

Good luck and all the best to the competitors, spectators, and all attendees. :cool:

Regards,

[mun hung]

I have a question.

Why does Mr. Meng's schools teach Yip Man Wing Chun at all when it seems HFY is purely what they believe in?

No trolling here, just an honest question.

[yuanfen]

Diversification is "good" business. There are TKD schhols around that advertise "TKD, Karate, Judo and Kung FU"!

[Phil Redmond]

I think Benny Meng also teaches TKD. I met a 3rd Dan student of his named Tae (sp)? during a William Cheung seminar at the VT Museum.
Phil

[Rolling_Hand]

Terence wrote:

First, I'm always honest -- and I say the same things to people's face that I say behind their backs. Not everyone here can say the same, can they KJ?

--------------------------------------------------------

Oh boy,

Looking at a mirror...

With a quiet mind

Come into this MA world,

And feel the joy of the way

Beyond the WCK

Lut Sao Jik Chung.

A true seeker...

Holding back nothing,

Holding to nothing.

Who is the real master?

Kathy Jo!

hahaha........hum!

[KenWingJitsu]

Anyone who cant see the similarities in sparrign and fighting needs to go back int he wing chun closet and do sil lim tao a thousand times. Maybe they hope that will teach them how to "fight".

Anyways.......the point about testign your skills against a resisting opponent.....(aka sparring...or fighting) is one I thouroughly recommend.

[Savi]

Originally posted by mun hung
I have a question.

Why does Mr. Meng's schools teach Yip Man Wing Chun at all when it seems HFY is purely what they believe in?

No trolling here, just an honest question.

Great question Mun Hung! Both the VTM and Meng's of AZ school still offer the Yip Man Ving Tsun. YMVTK is quite effective and it wouldn't be morally correct to abandon current students of YMVTK. A strong part of the AZ student base resides in the YMVT version. Some students have chosen to stick with one vice the other, others train both (Wing Chun students). It's all a matter of preference for the student, which both Sigung Meng and my Sifu have left open to them. It is the commitment of the Sifu to the student not to abandon them.

This also gives the student an opportunity to evaluate what they are learning whether if they are only training one, or cross-training the systems. How? Because this gives them a chance to see the difference, and have the explanation at the same time under one roof. They get first hand experience.

Being exposed to different systems (of WC/VT in this case, but also in any other case) is a great learning experience, and is not lost on our family. Simply, the Meng family recognizes that Yip Man Ving Tsun is a great treasure to the Gong Wu (martial community), has strong roots in this lineage, and maintains their dedication to its survival.

Regards,
-Savi.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Anyone who cant see the similarities in sparrign and fighting needs togo back int he wing chun closet and do sil lim tao a thousand times. Ken,
Take a beginning student who has been training for a few months, or maybe even a year and ask them to do Sil Nim Tao, or anything else for that matter, and then watch a Master. I'm sure I will "see" many similarities. Does that mean that they are equal? While you are focusing on the similarities that you can see, I am concerned about the differences that may not be immediately apparent.

The path you choose is your own, and I respect that. I just ask that you don't denigrate me your "recommendations".

Matrix

P.S. I am heading back to the WC closet to do SLT again. ;)

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Since you aren't aware of the background of the discussion between Phil and myself, perhaps you shouldn't sit in judgment.

My apology, Terence. I was commenting on certain types of behaviors, and not on you. I am distinctly not qualified to sit in judgement on any persons, or to assess what may have transpired between you and Phil or anyone else.

In general I believe it is better to speak to issues, than to talk or make inferences about people. I do believe there is an appropriate balance of civility and brutal honesty of opinion, despite the challenge of finding it at times. I don't find it compelling that every thought or speculation needs to be voiced or implied - mine or anyone else's. Even "truths" can be many things, both positive and negative - such as misinformed opinions or even used as weapons. I believe in granting a modicum of respect and consideration, and that something as out-of-fashion as a little kindness can sometimes and still serve to the good. I also concede that these things require a great deal of effort at times, and understand that not everyone willing to speak is equally willing to expend enough energy to do so carefully. I also believe with a somewhat stubborn naivete that people can and sometimes do change, and that this is all the more reason to address behaviors rather than labeling people.

Addressing these kinds of issues, as I am prone to do, is as much a reminder to myself as to anyone; perhaps more so to myself really. IMHO, none of us are justified in perceptions of self-righteouness. It remains my Achilles heel, not to mention an odd and persistent rub between the two of us, that things of this nature seem important enough to speak of once in awhile.

Terence, I can't know if you have ever truly read, understood, or cared about any of my messages, and in the scheme of the cosmos it doesn't really matter. It isn't about you, and except for a reflection of my own silly frustration in observing how stupidly we as humans behave toward one another [generic "we"], it isn't about me either. It's about everyone trying a little bit so that forums such as this one - and perhaps more importantly the relationships that ensue from it - can maintain a healthy dynamic and ever increasing value for sharing and exchange on Wing Chun.

Here's to better days, lightening up a bit, and wishing the best for all of us - whether fighting, competing, or just trying to learn a little something about life or ourselves before taking our final rest.

FWIW, I greatly regret these digressions from substantive Wing Chun discussion, but realize it's a bit like taking time out from the drive to give the car an occasional tune-up.

This isn't a private message, because it isn't an issue about or between Terence or Kathy Jo; any and all of us can benefit by ruminating on such things as how we interact with others. And if nothing else, we've at least helped keep the Arnold Battle of Columbus more visible this week, and with my word count lower than Phil's in the Universe thread no less, LOL. <j/k Phil> :)

Peace,
- Kathy Jo

[Phil Redmond]

My post lengthy?.....naw.....grin.
Phil

[Geezer]

I just read the results from last years comp and you guys did real well,

http://home.vtmuseum.org/community/competitions/arnold2002.php


Good Luck this year to all those competing,

Sheldon:)

[mun hung]

Savi - thanks for replying.

I'm just curious of why any new or older students would want to train in/or continue Yip Man Wing Chun at all when HFY is what the school really believes in. I personally would'nt want to learn anything I was told was'nt as effective as HFY.

Did you train in Moy Yat's YM WC before you were taught HFY? If so - did you complete the YM system? Did you feel that you had a full understanding of the YM system of Wing Chun before starting HFY?

[Chango]

Hello Mun Hung,

<Snip>I'm just curious of why any new or older students would want to train in/or continue Yip Man Wing Chun at all when HFY is what the school really believes in. I personally would'nt want to learn anything I was told was'nt as effective as HFY.

-- This is a fair question. I want to also say that it is never said that HFY is "more effective". I understand why that conclusion could be drawn. But we respect each lineage and just as important the information brought to the table. We just contend that these systems are very "different animals" altogether. The terminology may be the same but the definintions a very much different on evey level and at every aspect. To better understand first let me start by telling you my experience. My Sifu paid me the compliment one time of calling me the school's tortoise! Meaning that I work through each part of the program slow yet consistant. I'm the type of student that respectfully refuses to drop the subject until I fully understand it. even then I take things off and work thing over and over until it is what I consider it to "mine". So let's just say that I could not have trained Yip Man system with out feeling I had a full grasp on things. Quite a few of my Sidai's finished the system before I did. Even though I started before them. I to this day have never have bothered to take the time to look up and compare! My identity is with out question HFY. But I do value my Yip Man sytem training. It really helps me understand for the most part what the rest of the WCK world is saying. I personally understand where the passion for each concept comes from. I have experienced it first hand myself. I hope this answers your core question.

<snip> Did you train in Moy Yat's YM WC before you were taught HFY? If so - did you complete the YM system? Did you feel that you had a full understanding of the YM system of Wing Chun before starting HFY?

The answer is the same for me it is Yes on all questions here. To really grasp HFY you must truly empty your cup and not assume that you aready know any of it concepts. I mean even center line (key concept) is very different when you get into it. I personally find that this plays a major part in those who don't really get it even up on having face to face interaction. Of course I don't speak for all of those who don't get it. But I can say "most". I find I did not really understand my HFY training until I honestly let go of my old ideas.

Chango

[mun hung]

First I'd like to thank you for answering.

quote Originally posted by Chango
I want to also say that it is never said that HFY is "more effective". I understand why that conclusion could be drawn.

I came to that conclusion myself after visiting your Arizona school and spending some time with SiFu Lowenhagen.

quote
We just contend that these systems are very "different animals" altogether. The terminology may be the same but the definintions a very much different on evey level and at every aspect.

Different animals indeed. In fact, even our Yip Man Wing Chun was much different.

quote
My identity is with out question HFY. But I do value my Yip Man sytem training. It really helps me understand for the most part what the rest of the WCK world is saying.

The WCK world says many things.

All in all I had a very educational experience over at the school. (A very beautiful school I might add) And I thank SiFu Lowenhagen for having me although we did have very different ideas on Wing Chun. Thanks again for responding.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Mckind13
There is a definite change in focus when competition is involved.

When a school/system trains for these types of events, no matter how much they want to focus on other things there is a split in interest between functional effective WCK and what the judges want to see. WCK is a combat system and needs to be trained as such.

Can you give specific examples of how the training is different for competition vs. combat?

[Mckind13]

KF -

Not specifically in WCK. But in some Karate schools training is always a game of take even when self defense/street techniques are being trained. You can see it in the mentality of the students. Also in Tai Chi push hands you can see people leaning into one another and pushing literally instead of trying to sense the opponent and off balance him. I have hear similar things happen in Chi Sou competitions. Also who can judge my forms properly unless they are in my family?
Elbows on center or nipple line?
Tan Sau at mid gate or high gate?
Raise and sink with the form or no motion?
Knees fist distance apart or not.
How far do you rotate the feet in?

If you do what a judge want to see or what the rules state as correct is this Function leading Form or the other way around.

David

[Knifefighter]

I'm still having trouble understanding how this makes your approach more combat effective. Are you saying that only people in your "family" can judge whether or not something is combat effective?

[Mckind13]

KF - you are missing what I am trying to say.

1. How can someone who trains the form with a different emphasis judge my method.

i.e. If I use dynamic tension and the judge doesn't I will either change my form to a more acceptable one or not do well in the competition. If i train with the intent of doing then I will lose the functionality that I gained from training the form with that particular method.

2. My statement was not what makes my method more combat effective, just that those that train for perty forms, gaining points from particular types of techniques in sparring or chi sau tend to lose the focus of fighting with the art.

3. My family is not the only group that could judge me combat effective. Fighting would be the best way to do that. What I am saying is that if 7 out of 8 judges were from the Lueng Ting family then they would judge with that bias. Only my family can judge if I am doing the form to their standards.

If this doesn’t help I’ll try again!

David

[canglong]

David McKinnon,
Although I understand what you are stating I think that knifefighter has a very valid point. That being, if we can't step outside of our lineage and recognize the essence of what it is we ALL do then why do we all call it wing chun?

[t_niehoff]

Tony,

How can you rate the "form" of someone when form (of our expression) is dictated by the opponent in the moment of application? Perhaps you think my tan sao is too low in my SNT or not on the centerline -- but my (present) emphasis may be 'sinking' and using the mid-clavicular line; someone else may emphasize some other aspects. And our emphasis may change over time, and be so reflected in our forms. The forms, as I understand them, are for training us . . . but not training to use specific fixed shapes, with specific fixed angles, aat specific speeds, etc. That is dead WCK. Remember the story of WSL and another senior who both went to Yip Man to ask which was correct in how they did the second tan sao in SNT? Yip told them they were both right (which of them would have won the form competition?). Everyone of Yip Man's students does the forms differently. Yip understood he was teaching individuals, not robots or parrots. No two boxers will "look" the same; no two fighters will "look" the same; no two WCK practitioners should "look" the same. The only way to judge form (how good is my tan sao?) is by its effectiveness in application (teachers emphasize doing things "their way" as they are trying to reinforce certain training habits but application will vary with the opponent). This is why in WCK it is silly to have form competition. Imagine boxers having a form competition -- who has the best looking jab, cross, footwork, etc.! TN

Terence

[mun hung]

Agree completely with Terrence.

[canglong]

Any and all forms of artistical expression are open to interpretation in this particular case we not only have empirical laws but also physical laws of governance with which to use as the guide you even say as much when expressing that a taan sau can be percieved as too high or too low. The form (without resistance) and the sparring (with resistance) will be judged differntly.

I believe we could take six people who had never seen a wing chun form executed before and show them 4 different lineages way of doing SNT and they could each describe in detail why they prefer one over the other for example this one was more fluid this one was too jerky this one seemed to long compared to the others, this one was done too slow, the arms of this one weren't working together and the list goes on and on so to them these would all be valid arguments.... That being the case why can't I get six judges who are very knowledgable about wing chun and have them as the judges and perform this same test in an objective manner.

I am sure we all judge ourselves and I imagine that your instructor has more than once asked you to perform a form or an application for them so they might decipher whether or not your execution is progressing properly proving the point sometimes an outside critical eye can even sometimes be requested not just required. The entrant that performs the best in all 4 catagories is the grand champion combining just those things that concern you most form combined with application (sparring) so I think that is not being lost on the host of this event.

Lastly, personally I believe like you say that eveytime someone does their own interpretation (expression)of their SNT that their SNT is talking and a trained ear can hear every word. I just enjoy watching different forms done by different lineages myself. I believe they can be judged and I would like to watch them performed even if they weren't being judged so I would imagine winning a competion just enhances the reasons why a gathering like this would cause someone to travel to and then perform in this particular competition.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Planetwc (David Williams) post about this question is right on. All of the forms and chi sao competitions at various tournaments are a bad joke that I stopped laughing at years ago. IF WING CHUN IS GOING TO COMPETE in today's world (whether it be on the street or at a tournament) than cross-training is the answer-the more weapons you have in your arsenal the better the fighter you're going to be.

[t_niehoff]

"Ultimatwingchun" (yeah, right) wrote:

IF WING CHUN IS GOING TO COMPETE in today's world (whether it be on the street or at a tournament) than cross-training is the answer-the more weapons you have in your arsenal the better the fighter you're going to be. U

I disagree. WCK takes a certain approach toward fighting and a specific means to train that approach; with it, we can become a better fighter. Our ancestors in WCK faced the same challenges that we do today (there is nothing new under the sun) -- wrestlers, grapplers, strikers, bigger aand stronger fighters, etc. Their answer was not to look elsewhere ("crosstraining") but to use their method to better develop themselves. At the core of WCK is the concept of "siu" (as in SNT/SLT) -- "small" or "little". The approach of WCK is not to accumulate more ("crosstraining", "more weapons", or more techniques) but just the opposite IMHO: to use less to accomplish more (less movement, less techniques, etc.). WCK is about chiseling away, making our method smaller, more efficient, etc. To compete today what we need to do is just what our ancestors did -- use performance (being able to use WCK against real resistance) as our measure, not "relationships" or "certificates" or "titles" or whatever. TN

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[BWCK is about chiseling away, making our method smaller, more efficient, etc. To compete today what we need to do is just what our ancestors did -- use performance (being able to use WCK against real resistance) as our measure, not "relationships" or "certificates" or "titles" or whatever. [/B] Terence,
<sarcasm>What about Belts or Sashes? </sarcasm>
Seriously though, I would have to agree. I think that it is benifical to understand grappling to some degree, but for most of us common people, we can only be proficient in one art. While we must, as Ultimatwingchun has stated, have more weapons in our arsenal. Those weapons are already available in Wing Chun. In my opinion, you can overextend yourself to be a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. Of course, we must all follow our own path, so we should respect a person's right to choose. I am a simple man, so I must stay focused on one art. Others may be more skilled.

Matrix

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Jeremy or Chango,

How do you judge WCK forms? Is there a formal/offical set of criteria?

Rene - I was reading this thread from the beginning and I don't know if this was ever answered for you or not. But if your question was how are forms and such going to be judged. I think this link my help http://www.wuma.com/aboc/
If you were asking my sibok and sisook how they would judge then maybe the link will be helpfull to others.
-David

[Mckind13]

Terence

I agree that cross training is not needed to develop really good WCK. I think cross training or cross-art comparison can free us from preconceived notions and realign out perceptions and understandings of others methods and tactics.

David McKinnon

[Grendel]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2


Rene - I was reading this thread from the beginning and I don't know if this was ever answered for you or not. But if your question was how are forms and such going to be judged. I think this link my help http://www.wuma.com/aboc/
If you were asking my sibok and sisook how they would judge then maybe the link will be helpfull to others.
-David
Now I understand the "Arnold" part of the name. :D But, I don't see any reference to Wing Chun. Is it just assumed to be under the general title of Kung Fu?

[t_niehoff]

Hi Dave,

Dave McKinnon wrote:

I agree that cross training is not needed to develop really good WCK. I think cross training or cross-art comparison can free us from preconceived notions and realign out perceptions and understandings of others methods and tactics. DM

Agreed. IMO meeting folks - especially in gong sao, but also in more "friendly" exchanges - of other arts is essential to our development for both the excellent reasons you give and to grow by facing the challenges of these other arts/methods. TN

Terence

[desertwingchun2]

Grendel - I would say that the rules for WC would be found in the Kung Fu section. I had looked at this web site before and posted here in hopes to stay on topic and also share what little info I had.

Terence and Dave - I agree that friendly exchanges between martial artist can help a lot! Thats one reason I feel fortunate to train where I do. I have many sihingdai that are accomplished martial artists in various systems. When we practice kuen faat you know your partner is giving you true sense of reality and not just mimicing moves they've seen on t.v or something.

-David