Principle vs Technique

[Braden]

Answer... then discuss!

[Royal Dragon]

Techniques are often used to teach the principals

Discussion over.

[Laughing Cow]

Agree wiith RD.

[Braden]

Ahaha... that's very true! But which do you do when someone swings at you?

[dezhen2001]

cr@p myself... is that a technique or a principle? :D

dawood

[Souljah]

erm...cant both be used at the same sime?
The principal behind the technique..?

rd said it....

[Souljah]

BAH, d@mn u DEZ!!!!!!! beat me by a couple of secs!
*shaking fist in the distance...*

:D

[Laughing Cow]

If you only got the technique with no applied principle behind I reckon you will get your arse kicked.

Your technique will be hollow and empty, ie much of the crap MA we see out there.

Just my Opinion.

[Souljah]

yes because without principles what are our techniqes? What are our forms? Theyre just patterns and dances without any principles

[dezhen2001]

*shakes fist back at souljah*...

i dont think you can really have one without the other. how well you can do and adapt depends on your understanding of the principle though.

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Dawood.

Agreed.

Principles are insubstantial, they need the techniques in order to be fully expressed and understood.
;) ;)

[count]

Guess you know how I voted Braden.;) Seriously, why even bother practicing techniques? They take forever to master and you never encounter that same situation in a fight. Principles all the way!

[Souljah]

but the movements, you still need practice the movements...

In my opinion you cant, or shouldnt have one without the other...

[Water Dragon]

Technique

[count]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Technique

That's only half an answer.;)

[Water Dragon]

No it's not ;)

[SevenStar]

Technique.

Principles are great to have, but take a man and teach him how to throw a good jab, cross and hook. make him drill it endlessly. He won't really have to understand the principle behind it as long as he can apply it.

And, you don't always need either, really... does a "streetfighter understand the principle behind his haymaker? unlikely. Heck, he can't even punch right. But many of us have seen one beat a trained MA...

[Braden]

Vote you lazy bums! :D

[ZIM]

Principles, but this link is just for fun (http://www.formkollektivet.se/spel/kangspel.html)

[& How come that looks like Wing chun?] :D

[Xebsball]

7star, i believe the streetfighter instinctively learns, understands and applys certain principles of fighting all the times, specially at the strategic level <- wich is with no doubt the most important one.

He might not be able to explain anything academicly, but he sure uses it. After all, he IS fighting.

[Oso]

Forms contains sets of techniques thought of by the creator to exemplify the principles (or subset of principles) of the particular style.

Beginners learn these techniques as examples of the principles and they must be trained to a decent level of proficiency.

But, only so many of them can be trained to a high level of 'mastery' (for lack of a better, non-controversial word).

In the end you should end up with a handfull of things you 'do' that are based on the principles of the style you are studying.

But, still have the ability to pull the other things out of your a ss when you meet up against the person that just so happened to have trained his favorite **** that counters your favorite ****.

So...Principle based technique training. hmmm, sounds like kung fu.

Without the principles you don't have a specific style of ma even though you might be able to kick some butt.

Hey!, that sounds like MMA.:D

[Water Dragon]

Basically, principle is real nice to talk about and it sounds cool. But when you get down to it, how do you practice a principle? How do you train a principle? You don't. As you practice your technique it will become more and more refined. It will be easier for you to use. The technique will naturally mutate into variations and combinations. All of a sudden, your not even thinking about what your doing in a fight, you're just doing it. Your principles have magically appeared.

But if you try to train or understand principles directly, you end up with nothing in the end. Therefore, back to my first post in this thread.

Technique.

[Royal Dragon]

endless Drilling of Tecniques = Mastery of principal.


Endless practice of principal = Mastery of technique.

The two together = un beatable ass kicker.

[count]

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a night,
Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life. :o

Principles come from the basics and forms, techniques come out of situations. It's easier to learn principles than applications. All the applications in the world won't do you any good against something you never saw before. That jab is useless if you can't hit me with it. :p

Applications are like the fruit on a tree, but they are not the root.

Thank you Master He. :cool:

[TkdWarrior]

man u will eventually learn the principle otherwise u most probably end up busting urself...

why the hell u need principle for?
well u need to discuss over forums n prove that ur technique is the BEST
-TkdWarrior-

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball
7star, i believe the streetfighter instinctively learns, understands and applys certain principles of fighting all the times, specially at the strategic level <- wich is with no doubt the most important one.

He might not be able to explain anything academicly, but he sure uses it. After all, he IS fighting.

That's part of my point - the thought of applying a principle never crosses his mind. It's all just the fight and his "technique".

Therefore, my answer is technique.

There was a similar thread on the internal board a while back - If I remember right, WD MSToo and I were the only ones who felt the way we did... ah well.

[count]

That's my point too.

the thought of applying a principle never crosses his mind.
Are you saying a streetfighter thinks, I'm going to use that cool combination and finish him with a side kick? What happens in between.

You don't have to think about principles at all. It's techniques that take thought.

[Braden]

I like that ya'all are discussing... but I kind of offered definitions of what I meant in the poll. I really just wanted the poll answered, because I'm curious as to what people's experience in fighting is... Honestly, I expected like 99.9% of people to respond that they faught with standard, well-drilled techniques. These results are quite surprising! BUT KEEP VOTING!!!

Count - Master He = Xie Peiqi's disciple?

[count]

Actually He Jing Han who was a desciple of Gong Bao Zhai. He told me that in a discussion. At the time, I told him that the fruit had dozens of seeds at the core and each one had a potential to grow an entire forest. But I was a young, smartass than. I'm older wiser now, I hope.;)

[Mr.Binx]

I'm freaking out here maaan... I can't select both! AUGH!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[Water Dragon]

Count, Make sure that you're not confusing the application of a technique with the technique itself. they are two very different things.

[SifuAbel]

Its like a finger pointing at 'da moon. (SMACK! on the head)
Don't look at the finger or you will miss all 'dat heavenwy glowry.

I am with RD. I am a brew of all my past expereinces. Flow is what counts, to worry about the cogs is not to know how to drive the machine.

[David]

I guess I react to a situation on principles, out of which a technique may or may not come out 'like it says in the book'.

You are best at what you repeat most but what you repeat is only approximately applicable to any situation, causing you to compromise.

-David

[shaolinboxer]

Techniques are the embodiment of principal. Technique by definition is limited in function. Although individual principals are also limited in application they are more universal than techniques, and therefore of a greater value than the techniques themselves. However, without the techniques there is no way to tranmit the principals. So perhaps they are equally important depending on your view.

Technique embodies principal. Principal is distilled from technique. Principal is expressed through technique. Experience, guided by principal, alters technique. Altered techniques embody principal. And on and on.

Which do I use when I am unfortunately drawn into a bit of a tussle....I dunno what I do. I just do it and it seems to work.

[Royal Dragon]

Been thinki'n 'bout this

If I were to rank it on a scale of importance, I'd have to say principal is more important. the techniques comes FROM the principal. If you memorise the technique, but have no understanding of the underlieing principlas, you are very limited
However, if you learn the principal, you can pretty much invent as many techniques as needed on a spontanious basis. That way, if you see something you've never encountered before, the principals are so ingrained in your subconcious you will create the apropreate technique to counter it.

The issue comes in that in order to learn principal, you must drill technique endlessly. the two go hand in hand, and cannot be seperated.

The question should not be Technique Vs Pincipal, but more like "What is the depth of your understanding"

[Black Jack]

I believe this paragraph written by the late John Styers a WWII USMC veteran and close combat instructor who was a student of Colonel A.J. Drexel Biddle to carry a lot of merit.

It's from his book Cold Steel written in 1952 which is the collection of his training series of articles in the old war-time Leatherneck magazine.

"Technique is the ability to combine basic principles with their best possible application to make the most skillful and formidable attacks against an opponent. Crudely put, it is the use of every trick you know to get your blade into your opponent."

"Technique is NOT a sometimes thing;you acquire it with the PRACTICE of BASIC PRINCIPLES, in your own, individual manner."

John Styers- (The knife fighting section)

[yenhoi]

You dont use either, so it doesnt matter. Principles are just more vague then techniques are. Both are simply teaching methods.

I also think it would be very hard to demonstrate any 'principle' without using a 'technique' or three. That puts me in the technique camp.

:eek:

[Cheese Dog]

I believe that principles are more important than technique.

BUT, technique has to come first. Once you have a grounding in the basics of your style, then you can begin to understand the principles behind them. IMO it is useless to try to teach a beginner principles, most of it will go over their heads, the time is better spent learning basics.

[Black Jack]

I am more of a principle guy. Show a person the practical principle behind a lesson and that principle can be applied to a wide assortment of situations. Killing many birds with one stone.

It's a combination of both in the long run though. Simple and solid techniques combined with strong principles and backed by confidence and aggression.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Braden
I like that ya'all are discussing... but I kind of offered definitions of what I meant in the poll. I really just wanted the poll answered, because I'm curious as to what people's experience in fighting is... Honestly, I expected like 99.9% of people to respond that they faught with standard, well-drilled techniques. These results are quite surprising! BUT KEEP VOTING!!!

Count - Master He = Xie Peiqi's disciple?

LOL, shame on me, I didn't even read the poll dude... I'll go back and read it, then vote :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Been thinki'n 'bout this

If I were to rank it on a scale of importance, I'd have to say principal is more important. the techniques comes FROM the principal. If you memorise the technique, but have no understanding of the underlieing principlas, you are very limited
However, if you learn the principal, you can pretty much invent as many techniques as needed on a spontanious basis. That way, if you see something you've never encountered before, the principals are so ingrained in your subconcious you will create the apropreate technique to counter it.

The issue comes in that in order to learn principal, you must drill technique endlessly. the two go hand in hand, and cannot be seperated.

The question should not be Technique Vs Pincipal, but more like "What is the depth of your understanding"

But do you NEED it? No. Yes, principles open up limitless applications, but if you don't know the technique, your principles are useless. you can understand elbow locking and you can understand diagonal cut, but if you can't do the technique, you can't apply your understanding...

[Royal Dragon]

Cheese Dog, Black Jack,

Exactly my point of view.


Yes, principles open up limitless applications, but if you don't know the technique, your principles are useless.

Reply]

From my stand point, if you can't create technique from the principal, and make it work, you really don't know the principal to begin with.

[SevenStar]

you're not creating a technique, but an application.

[Royal Dragon]

No, you're creating a technique from the principal, then applying it simutaniously.

[SevenStar]

technique - step into left bow and arrow stance. left arm swings down and stops with the fist parallel to the knee while the right arm simultaneously swings upwards and stops with a 90 degree bend in your arm. and your shoulder is parallel with the ground.


principle - elbow locking

application - trap the opponent's arm, lock it and throw him.

The technique was already there - by applying the principle to the techniques, you are creating multiple applications.

You can fight with a technique alone, you are just limited in what you can do with it.

[Water Dragon]

Think of it like this guys. Take Diagonal Cut. Train the technique. Remember what train the technique means. What stances do you want to focus on? Front Stance, Back stance, and if you want, Ghost stance, Dragon Playing in Water, and Neck surrounding. Practice the form and play with it. Focus on different things. Add in belt cracking, rock pole, rope pulley, and of course, basic conditioning.

Practice it as many times as you can, spar with it. Find out it's limitations and what sets it up. When to use it, when not to. You find this stuff out as you free play. You'll begin to understand what the principle is as the technique becomes a part of you. You can't "train" this principle. It's a natural result of properly training your technique.

[Black Jack]

Here is an article of principles or techniques by the Kuntao teacher Bob Orlando.

http://www.orlandokuntao.com/techniques_or_principles.html

[dnc101]

Without principles, techniques are worthless. If they violate principle, techniques don't work.

Techniques fall into two categories; those that teach us to apply principles, and the ones you use in a fight. Concerning the first category- train wrong, fight wrong, loose. As to the second, it is the spontaneous application of principles.

You can understand all the principles there are, but if you fail to apply them (technique), what good are they? And you can know all the techniques in any given style, but if you can't properly apply the principles they won't work outside the school. And you may not be able to articulate the principles. But if you are doing your techniques correctly then you are applying, and learning to apply, your principles.

Technique and principle are two sides of the same coin. A coin with only one side is counterfit currency. You can turn the coin over and look at only one side, but the other is still there. Technique and principle are inseperable.

[SevenStar]

if that's so, then how do non trained people make punches and kicks work? technique can stand alone just fine. It's better when you understand and can apply the principles behind them though.

[dnc101]

7, it can, if your lucky. Or fighting a lesser skilled or infirm opponent.

By yiur last sentence I gather you aren't studying to depend entirely on luck. So, do you plan to attack infirm old (and untrained) people?:confused: Nah, I'm bettin' you use and understand principles at some level.:D

[SevenStar]

lol, yeah I understand principles. I've seen plenty of trained people get mauled by untrained people though. Even looking at it as luck, that still would say that a technique can stand alone. That's why I say technique.

[dnc101]

7, some of those 'untrained' people have had the best training available. The learned to fight 'on the job' before they learned to walk. And they get a lot of practical application every day. Others I've known don't have to, but actually seek out fights just because..., he!!, I'm not sure they know why! But, at some primative level, they have a verry good grasp on some solid principles, some of which you may never learn in class.

[SevenStar]

yes, plenty of experience. that can make all the difference. because of his experience he can make his technique work. However, I will agree that there are some very broad principles that some streetfighters use

[yenhoi]

I dont use techniques in a fight, I use my arms and legs and teeth etc.

If they violate principle, techniques don't work.

Not true.

:cool:

[morbicid]

technique upon which no principal sends me to class late and assigns detentions for my own very technique on high school cheerleader during lunch time boob comes loose in principle of moral spread butter and slippery on skin

[Royal Dragon]

Ah, Ok..............Right..................NEXT!!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I dont use techniques in a fight, I use my arms and legs and teeth etc.

If they violate principle, techniques don't work.

Not true.

:cool:

amen.

[joedoe]

Is curling up into a ball and crying like a little girl a principle or a technique? :D

[yenhoi]

Sounds like a standard WD breakfall joedoe.....


:eek:

[joedoe]

So it's a technique? :D

[Water Dragon]

Nope, Falling is a skill.

[BaldMonk]

Principles are the framework, or foundation of techniques. Techniques often receive more attention because they can be broken down and explained easily. Principles work in the background and have to be followed but not necessarily understood. On a basic level a technician will be able to pull off a given technique in a particular situation, but knowledge of the principles will allow myriad variations of angle, speed, body positioning, etc. Also variations of the particular energy of a tech can be adjusted if one understands the principles. Knowing techniques can make one an ok fighter, knowing principles will let you become a fighter that can beat that ok fighter, and teach others to become superior fighters. Techniques are the house principles are the foundation. The foundation is more important.

[yenhoi]

Techniques are the house principles are the foundation.

I think its the other way around. You cant build a house foundation last, and you cant start learning applications without technique. Priciples come later.

The foundation is more important.

Indeed. :D

[count]

Bald Monk is dead on.

Basics, do'um. :cool:

[yenhoi]

Basics are techniques.

[FeloniousMonk]

I am the greatest. I have a big d!ck. I would like to fight each of you pathetic kung fu wanna be computer nerds. If by any small chance one of you would like to fight me I would be happy to introduce you to my ten inches of dangeling fury, after i'm done kicking your fragile unconditioned @sses I will then proceed fu(king them. I usually don't have time to post on this forum, I'm usually training to hard to waste my precious time telling pu55ies what their doing wrong.

If you would like to fight me then you must:
1) come to where I live (we can spar/fight in G.D.A.'s training room. I would go to where you all live, but since my time is obviously more valuable than yours, this will be better for me.)
2)When you lose I reserve the right to pummel your loose flabby computer nerd @sses.
3) After your fated defeat I will then answer all your questions(if you live)
4) Finally in order for you to fight you must sign a waiver stating that you know your life is at great risk.

Ihave challenged all to show you why I am................

[SevenStar]

The basic is the technique itself. what makes it work comes next. if you don't know a technique, you can never apply a principle.

[count]

Originally posted by SevenStar
The basic is the technique itself. what makes it work comes next. if you don't know a technique, you can never apply a principle.

No, the basics are what you have after the techniques are thrown out. Or before they are put in :confused: That's how you train. Those are the power issues. The stances. Not the what but the how! No wonder you guys are confused.:p

[Oso]

dang, this threads been worked so much it's got split ends!!!

:D

[count]

Originally posted by Oso
dang, this threads been worked so much it's got split ends!!!

:D

LOL! Oso. At least it's martial arts rhetoric. If it bugs you, there are plenty of political threads to join in. For my money, or what's left of it since Bush was appointed and before Saddam blows up the worlds oil reserves, Their all a little "worked" themselves.;)

[yenhoi]

How do you train basics without technique? (If basics are there before and after - if we are still talking about a person learning to hit and throw and kick other people...)

:eek:

[red5angel]

yenhoi, I think they are talkinga botu the very basics, stance work, sensitivity type stuff, where you aren't really learning how to apply the techniques so much as developing some foundation first.

[yenhoi]

stance is a technique. hubud or chisau cannot be shown (well you can show someone and talk about elbow mechanics, centerline, this and that) or taught without [a] technique.

Technique is the actual - physical - this is where your arm goes and when your muscle does this. Principle is all the fluffy flashy things that happen in your head once you figure 'it' out. Application is doing it.

:(

[red5angel]

yenhoi, I think its a matter of semantics then. Some people consider "technique" as being those directly applicable to attacking or defending. While I would agree that stance might be a part of that, not all people look at it that way.

[count]

Originally posted by yenhoi
stance is a technique. hubud or chisau cannot be shown (well you can show someone and talk about elbow mechanics, centerline, this and that) or taught without [a] technique.

Technique is the actual - physical - this is where your arm goes and when your muscle does this. Principle is all the fluffy flashy things that happen in your head once you figure 'it' out. Application is doing it.

:(
:rolleyes: Yenhoi, I don't know how to tell you this, but the fluffy flashey things that happen in your head come from being shown a technique and thinking that it actually works that way in the real world. Principles only define results. While it takes training to understand and apply them, they exist as the foundation for good techniques, whether you are thinking about them or not. The bottom line is you can have good techniques by applying good principles, but without good principles, your techniques suck.:p

[SevenStar]

It would work, but would suck... so you do agree that a technique can be used without a principle?

[fa_jing]

I voted "technique." But I'm as confused by the question as the rest of you. Obviously when the technique is originally designed, it is based on principle. But you can't apply principles without techniques to impose those principles. It's all well and good to have the principle of "maintain distance," but it is the footwork that you use and have trained that allows you to do so successfully. It's good if your corner tells you, "beat him down hard" but are you going to run out there and throw girl-slaps? Or are you going to double up on your jab and throw the rear hand?

[yenhoi]

Okay, Ill seperate 3 terms:

principle: underlying related 'something' that makes other **** work - for example, elbow theory in wing chun or aikido or boxing.

technique: actual training method - for example, jab or cross.

application: **** happening - arms legs shoudlers hips and elbows flying around smashing stuff - for example, my hand smashing your face.

It is entirely possible for me to use my hand to smash your face and make you bleed/cry/run away, without every having been told, shown, or thought about where my elbows should be during face smashing process. Its also very possible for me to use my hand in such a fashion that it violates all notions i have about my elbow, and my hand will still smash into your face, making you bleed/cry/run away.

How does the cross as a technique lose value as application in combat if you have never been told about elbow alignment? What if my opponent happens to be off-balance when I hit him, what does that have to do with principle and hitting somone hard?

:confused:

[count]

Originally posted by SevenStar
It would work, but would suck...
Yes that's what I said.

so you do agree that a technique can be used without a principle?No, I agree that techniques can be applied with bad principles, but they would not work.;) I will agree that techniques can be applied with no understanding of principles, but that doesn't mean the principles don't exist.


It is entirely possible for me to use my hand to smash your face and make you bleed/cry/run away, without every having been told, shown, or thought about where my elbows should be during face smashing process. Its also very possible for me to use my hand in such a fashion that it violates all notions i have about my elbow, and my hand will still smash into your face, making you bleed/cry/run away.
Sure Yenhoi, it is possible but highly unlikely and purly theoretical. More likely that when you miss your punch and I break your elbow, you will not be able to use that punch again. However, given a certain training in the correct principles, you might be able to use that elbow when you miss your punch and still salvage your attack.:p

[yenhoi]

doubtful, because my sense of timing as a fighter is superior to yours. :D

What makes a technique "work?"

Is it becuase you have proper mechanics specific to that technique? Is it because you practiced a technique enough times that it becomes easy, fluid, thoughtless? Or does it work because you hit your opponent? Is it something else?

:confused:

[count]

Originally posted by yenhoi
doubtful, because my sense of timing as a fighter is superior to yours. :D

What makes a technique "work?"

Is it becuase you have proper mechanics specific to that technique? Is it because you practiced a technique enough times that it becomes easy, fluid, thoughtless? Or does it work because you hit your opponent? Is it something else?

:confused:
Timing? Again, that's purly theoretical since you don't really know me. But timing, is that a technique or a principle?

Proper mechanics have more to do with what makes a technique work than the number of times you practiced it. No matter how many times you practice it in class you can not practice every variable you encounter when someone isn't helping you practice.

[Royal Dragon]

hmmmm, How about this:

Technique is the physical manifastation of principal.

If you can perform the technique, you are useing the principal, whether you understand it or not.

I can drive a car, without knowing or understanding how the engine works.

[yenhoi]

I think timing/rhtym/tempo is an attribute, and that comment was in response to you breaking my elbow ;)

Proper mechanics have more to do with what makes a technique work than the number of times you practiced it. No matter how many times you practice it in class you can not practice every variable you encounter when someone isn't helping you practice.

imo, techniques ARE mechanics, and techniques 'work' when you can thoughtlessly and fluidly produce those mechanics under pressure.

[count]

That's a good principle.;)

[Oso]

LOL! Oso. At least it's martial arts rhetoric. If it bugs you, there are plenty of political threads to join in. For my money, or what's left of it since Bush was appointed and before Saddam blows up the worlds oil reserves, Their all a little "worked" themselves.



oh, I'm not bugged. It's just funny. Everyone is saying similar
things and debating the details. Most everyone posting on this
thread is basically correct and the details are personal differences
of interpretation of the definitions of:

Technique

Principle/Theory -- or are they different things too? ;)

Application

Skill


Pulling out a dictionary wouldn't really work either because the
discussion is about martial arts and someone would argue that
the conotation dictates a different denotation then what you
would find in a dictionary.
:D

It's just another 'me vs. you' thread.

Not without good food for thought mind you. no one is going to
convince anyone else who is firmly in the other camp.

good to read though, I just got an image of a bunch of cats
beating up a ball of yarn when I first got up this morning.:)

[red5angel]

"It's just funny. Everyone is saying similar
things and debating the details"

Welcome to the world of TMA Oso!!! If you want to really see this in action head on over to the Wing chun forum ....

[Knifefighter]

What's the first thing you learn as a beginner?
Technique.

What makes you become a good, journeyman practitioner?
Putting the techniques together and using the principles behind them in a variety of situations.

What makes you into a master?
The ability to use the principles to develop new techniques that are a reflection of your own personal flavor.

Technique leads to understanding of principles. Principles lead to development of new techniques. New techniques open doors to new principles.

[count]

Oso,

Don't start me up on the difference between principles and theories. They are not the same. I agree, it is just another "me vs. you" thread, but look, RD and Yenhoi are starting to see the light. SevenStar saw it all along but just won't admit it.


At least it's not another democrat vs. republican, vs. socialist vs. communist thread. :cool: When it comes to that, theres no convincing anyone that everyone is wrong. :cool: And in this debate 70 percent of the voters agree with me and even the Supreme Court of the United States can't over turn that.:p

PS, Good post knifefighter! Nice to hear from you.

[Oso]

red5,

well sure.

The funny thing is the doggedness with which the argument is
persued.

Actually, it's a good thread because no one is name calling
and all the points are good points. I'm not wading in becuase
I haven't been able to come up with anything that hasn't been
said yet.

But, I realize that;)


you can tell most of you guys would be good fighters cuz
you're not giving up!!!

[yenhoi]

I find it interesting to see how otherpeople mentally categorize fighting and how to train yourself to be better at fighting.

i dont think we have made it to the me vs you level yet, on this thread.

cept I would like break counts knees just on principle.:D

:cool:

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, I am convinced you are no taller then a yard gnome and so would not be able to reach Counts knees....

[Knifefighter]

One of the principles of an arm bar on the ground is to tightly isolate the arm between the legs. Teach someone this principle first and they will not be able to do much with it. However, teach them the mechanics of the technique and they will be able to perform it almost immediately. Once the person can perform the technique and others similar to it, such as a knee bar, he can apply the principle of "tight isolation" to all similar situations.

[Oso]

count, ok I'll bite.

Please define principle and theory.


I would first say that, just by def, theory would be untried
whereas principles have been proven to work.


lol...'see the light'

I doubt seven would admit it unless you had his face in the ground and a knee on his neck.:) actually, seven's a nice guy,
I think if he was convinced his opinion was wrong he would admit
it.


yes, KF, good post.

It seems as if everyone agrees that principles and techniques are
valid parts of learning to fight but unlikely that everyone will
agree as to what % or in what order.

chicken or the egg.

I know what works for me, or has 'mostly' worked for me.

technique.

oh, wait...I mean principle











noooo.....TECHNIQUE !!








sh it,


what were we talking about???????



:D

[count]

The methods you use to get someone from using techniques to understanding and applying principles are the main thing that differentiate between the styles. The main difference between principles and theories in the context of this discussion is theories are only ideas and principles are the outcome of reality. All the theory in the world won't stop a sucker punch in the gut. :eek: More than that is a topic for another thread and another time. I gotta go take my daughter to the movies now. See ya later.:)

[count]

And no yenhoi! Even though she's closer to your age, if you go near her I'll kick your ass!!!:D

[Oso]

theory would be untried whereas principles have been proven to work. == theories are only ideas and principles are the outcome of reality


agreed


beginners just need to repeat what you show them (techniques)
until they can perform it well.

you don't need to understand why it works right away.

but you must be able to understand the why's later in your
martial journey


****, now I'm doing it.

:)


what movie?

[yenhoi]

Does she practice martial arts?

I need a girl that can hold feeder pads and packs a mean cross.

:D

[red5angel]

"I need a girl that can hold feeder pads and packs a mean cross"

My wife...and I think her uppercut is a killer!

[Oso]

my gf has a pretty fast roundhouse kick.

and she can take a hit.

and no, I don't beat her.

she caught a forearm along the jawline the other night
in class and shook it off and would have kept going if I
had let her.

[dezhen2001]

well i havent trained with mine yet but i know she can kick :D im really gonna have to train my hard qigong before i visit :p

Oso: man r u trying to compete with Former Castlevania with your sig or somethin'? :D

dawood

[Oso]

dez, it's part 2 of several, stay tuned, I'm changing them weekly
some are better than others



oh, my girlfriend is better than your girlfriend.

:D

[dezhen2001]

does yours post on kfo? if not then no comparison :p

dawood

[yenhoi]

You date a forum member?

red5?

What gives?

:eek:

[dezhen2001]

no more info :D
and its not red5...

dawood

[Oso]

dez,

she does post here.:p :p

[dezhen2001]

cool were part of the same club then :cool:

dawood

[Oso]

although, she'd never heard of KFO till she met me.

she's to old for candy so I had to bait her with something.:D

[dezhen2001]

lol, means they can monitor what were up to though :(

dawood

[yenhoi]

Okay..... which one of you is dating Stacey?

:rolleyes:

[dezhen2001]

not me :D

dawood

[Oso]

don't be jealous yenhoi

[yenhoi]

dont be ashamed oso

:D

[Oso]

:confused:

[dezhen2001]

LMAO! :D

dawood

[Oso]

Isn't Stacey a guy?



btw, I declare this thread succesfully hijacked.

[yenhoi]

Oso: ;)

[dezhen2001]

ive always wondered why he still uses that name?:confused:

dawood

[SevenStar]

Someone's dating stacey?? A MALE is dating stacey? :confused: *hurl*

[Sho]

Reckon this thread has gone a little off-track, like Oso already mentioned. Keep posting! :D

[yenhoi]

Maybe oso can enlighten us? :D

I know a dude named Stacey. Big fat short hick dude. Very good worker, can manage a crew fairly well. Drives a huge truck that pulls a horsetrailer full of tools etc.

Thats the only reason I can agree with a guy being named Stacey.

:p

[Oso]

yenhoi

stop flirting with me, I done tol' you I had a girlfriend.

:D

[dezhen2001]

lol sevenstar :D

dawood

[yenhoi]

My bad, Im sorry. :D

[Oso]

that's cool, if anything changes I'll give you a ring;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
What's the first thing you learn as a beginner?
Technique.

What makes you become a good, journeyman practitioner?
Putting the techniques together and using the principles behind them in a variety of situations.

What makes you into a master?
The ability to use the principles to develop new techniques that are a reflection of your own personal flavor.

Technique leads to understanding of principles. Principles lead to development of new techniques. New techniques open doors to new principles.

good one.

[Merryprankster]

What knifefighter said.

I drill techniques constantly. But I wouldn't call what I'm doing drilling a technique. I'm focusing on the principles that make the technique work.

Take a standard half-nelson wrestler's pin. When you first learn it, you learn to keep your hips back, down and away and you push on the other guy to make him carry your weight, so you don't get turned over and he can't get out.

Then you learn some other "techniques" and the light bulb goes on. You realize that hips down and making them carry your weight is the key to a lot of other movements too.

Then you further generalize it and realize that proper hip position, regardless of spatial orientation, and making them carry your weight is the key to the movements.

So, am I concerned that "my hand goes here and my foot here?" Not so much, but I'm sure concerned about pressure, clearance and sequence (if you release something too soon, most of the time, you just created a way out).

I think that principles can't really be taught. I mean, you can talk about them over and over and you should.... but when the light bulb goes on is when you really have it figured out. You may not be able to do it yet, but you've got something to shoot for, and can practice your techniques with those principles in mind.

That's vital, because the techniques, in a match, are never applied with perfection, so you must be able to adjust them. And adjusting them is only possible if you understand WHY.

[count]

Good post MP. So did you vote?:)

[Oso]

ditto, good post MP

[SifuAbel]

Good one, KnifeFighter and MP.

I couldn't add much more.

Learning-Knowing-Understanding-Flowing-Being-No mind