Wing Chun Seminar in Tucson April 5th and 6th

[martyg]

Wing Chun ground work/knife fighting Seminar

University of Arizona - Tucson
Sports Complex

April 5th and 6th.


11am - 4pm

with Sifu Martin Goldberg


Day 1 -
o Wing Chun based tumbling (falling) pro-active recovery.
o Wing Chun specific methods of ground recovery.
o Applying concepts and principles of wing chun in a ground
environment.

Day 2 -
o Wing Chun based open hand vs. knife concepts.
o Wing Chun Kum na/chin na principles and takedowns for
knife disarms.


Cost for the seminar:

$45 for one day.
$80 for two days.

For more information and to register, please contact:
Jeremy Cohn
jacohn@comcast.net

All attendees must contact Jeremy before attending, to register
your name with the check in desk. Even if you're not sure if
you can make it submit your name so you're still able to get
in to the sports complex.

[t_niehoff]

Marty, please . . . "WCK-based tumbling"? "Open hand vs. knife"? This is pure nonsense and fantasy. The best defense with "empty hand" against knife is to run! Knife disarms? Are we now doing kali? Ground work? And doing BJJ too? If you could only take this to the "Battle of Columbus". ;) TN

What is WCK coming to? TN

Terence

[azwingchun]

I understand your point on the Wing Chun tumbling, but to be fair I think knife tactics are a needed part of any system. Since we don't get to pick the items which come with our attackers.

I hear many people say that hand to knife tactics are stupid, it gives students a false sense of security etc. I find this not exactly true. Though, I let my students understand that if they try hand to any kind of weapon, they are taking a big chance of losing or being killed. But at the same time look at it this way. You seem to find it very difficult to defend yourself against a knife. Ask yourself this, if it is difficult to use your hands against a knife, how difficult is it to defend off a knife with your back turned to the attacker?

I am not criticizing what you have said, I just want to show a different view point of the subject. I agree, if you have a chance to turn and run, do it! But what if you haven't seen the knife being pulled it is just coming at you? Do you turn you back and hope it doesn't land through your back? I would much rather take the cut to the hand or arm, than the spine. Just my honest opinion.

Like I said, I would much rather walk or run from this type of situation. Since an unarmed attacker can pose a major threat as it is, without throwing in a gun or knife. But, if you are in a situation or surprised by a situation will you try to take your chances on running and hopefully the attacker doesn't chase you or pull the trigger with your back turned? Due to this, I find these type of techniques very needed for emergency situations. IMHO ;)

[martyg]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Marty, please . . . "WCK-based tumbling"?

Yes, anotherwords if you find yourself being taken down by someone how to apply WC conepts and principles to take control and recover the situation.



"Open hand vs. knife"? This is pure nonsense and fantasy.


That's your opinion. Fortunately the rest of the world doesn't share it.



The best defense with "empty hand" against knife is to run!


And if you can't run?



Knife disarms? Are we now doing kali?


Nope, the kum na material used to break locks and holds on you can also be used for disarming. No kali "guntags" and limb destructions needed.



Ground work? And doing BJJ too?


Nope, no BJJ. The material will cover applying Robert's methods on the ground as well. You tried to say on the WCML they don't work there, and as I said before I've had plenty of private discussions on this with our Sifu about them working there.
The methods work anywhere - standing, leaning, sitting on a chair, lying on the ground, etc. Although the aptitude needed to see to that depth of his material doesn't seem to be available to everyone.



What is WCK coming to? TN
Terence

Certainly not to the "Battle of Terence's Back Yard". By the way, how's that coming?

Oh, and give Sifu a call one of these days.

[reneritchie]

Two quick points:

1) It's nice to see students of the same teacher have different opinions and be willing to discuss them, instead of just paroting some company line. IMHO, growth comes through struggle and discussion, through constant challenge and repeated testing, be it of skill or of logic behind the skill (some can make things work regardless of the sensibility of the thing itself).

2) WCK doesn't exist in a vacuume. It's a big, often bad world out there. WCK has developed for 150 years, and there's no reason it should stop now. Lots of wrestlers and highschool players train hours a day to take down highly resistant opponents. How much do WCK people train to prevent it? Knives and box cutters are plentiful. If you're not in good cardio condition, don't have somewhere safer to run to, etc. it's better to try something (as long as the teacher is honest enough to tell you the real consequences and to give you proper determination ability, mind set it, model it, etc.)

And BTW - I don't see anything wrong with bjj, wrestling, escrima, or whatever. These people have been specializing for generations and have tested things others haven't even thought of. I don't know about everyone else, but if I wanted to learn Chinese or physics, I wouldn't stick blindly to my music teacher (unless he was a Chinese physics major by day ;) If you're interested in something, find the best possible source and then work your @$$ off. People are really crazy to try to learn physical fitness, nutrition, meditation, religion, personal motivation, lifestyle coaching, etc. from one single martial arts teacher in the strip mall.

[planetwc]

OMG,

Marty is here! Hey buddy, did you get your degree at University completed yet?

What have you been up to and where are you located nowadays?

regards,

David

[Rolling_Hand]

Terence wrote:

"WCK-based tumbling"? "Open hand vs. knife"? This is pure nonsense and fantasy. The best defense with "empty hand" against knife is to run! Knife disarms?
------------------------------------------------------

Terence,

To agree the fact;

Run..Run..Run...

Let your action serve truth

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
The best defense with "empty hand" against knife is to run! Knife disarms? Isn't that the best defence in all cases, weapons or not? ;)

Matrix

[John Weiland]

Hi Marty,

Good luck with the seminar. I'm sure it will be worthwhile to all participants.

Regards,

[martyg]

Originally posted by planetwc
OMG,

Marty is here! Hey buddy, did you get your degree at University completed yet?

What have you been up to and where are you located nowadays?

regards,

David

Heya David, good to see you too. Should be graduating this December, just getting my math requirements out of the way.

Still in Milwaukee here, doing school and busy taking care of my mother (4th stage colon cancer).

[martyg]

Originally posted by John Weiland
Hi Marty,

Good luck with the seminar. I'm sure it will be worthwhile to all participants.

Regards,

Thanks John, appreciate it. It's a good chance for me to get away from things (stress) as well, so I'm really looking forward to it.

[planetwc]

Marty,

Very very sorry to hear about your mother.
Good luck with your seminar!

regards,

David

[yuanfen]

Marty- sorry to hear about your mom. Best wishes, Joy

PS I face a health challenge taking care of my mom too-
an extra sourse of fellow feeling.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Rene,

RR wrote:

1) It's nice to see students of the same teacher have different opinions and be willing to discuss them, instead of just paroting some company line. IMHO, growth comes through struggle and discussion, through constant challenge and repeated testing, be it of skill or of logic behind the skill (some can make things work regardless of the sensibility of the thing itself). RR

Exactly. And folks on a different thread might note that I'm not "softer" on Marty than I am to them. TN

2) WCK doesn't exist in a vacuume. It's a big, often bad world out there. WCK has developed for 150 years, and there's no reason it should stop now. Lots of wrestlers and highschool players train hours a day to take down highly resistant opponents. How much do WCK people train to prevent it? Knives and box cutters are plentiful. If you're not in good cardio condition, don't have somewhere safer to run to, etc. it's better to try something (as long as the teacher is honest enough to tell you the real consequences and to give you proper determination ability, mind set it, model it, etc.). RR

I've no problem in theory with the continued development of WCK, including some "nonclassical" aspects, but I think we need to be very careful in our direction for several reasons. IMO much of what we need to deal with "common situations" is already in our system -- so adding something is unnecessary. For example, we already have the tools to deal with attempted takedowns; what we need to do is train with someone skilled in takedowns who tries to take us down -- the better their skills, the better we need to develop to deal with them. Knives have always existed. Facing a knife unarmed is at best a very low-percentage situation; getting away is the best option, second is grabbing something to use as a weapon yourself, the last, and worst, is meeting it empty-handed. TN

You meantion "as long as your teacher is honest enough to tell you the real consequences" . . . well, how about honest enough to tell you if he has ever used these wonderful *theories* he's teaching you (and that you may end up betting your life on)? How about whether he has the skills to face a knife attacker successfully? If not, what is he teaching you but theoretical hearsay? How do we know if a teacher has the skills? As I brought up in other threads, anyone (and I'm not picking on Marty personally) can claim to *know* or have the skills, but demonstrating (and not by demo with a cooperative stuntman) them is another matter. TN

I don't see anything wrong with bjj, wrestling, escrima, or whatever. These people have been specializing for generations and have tested things others haven't even thought of. RR

Very true. TN

I don't know about everyone else, but if I wanted to learn Chinese or physics, I wouldn't stick blindly to my music teacher (unless he was a Chinese physics major by day If you're interested in something, find the best possible source and then work your @$$ off. People are really crazy to try to learn physical fitness, nutrition, meditation, religion, personal motivation, lifestyle coaching, etc. from one single martial arts teacher in the strip mall. RR

You bring up the excellent point of finding the "best possible source." To even find a credible source, we need some way of determining a given source's "worth." As I said before, and I'll say again, in WCK the only way to make that determination is by seeing for ourselves their abilites against real resistance. TN

Terence

[t_niehoff]

Marty,

Marty, please . . . "WCK-based tumbling"? TN

Yes, anotherwords if you find yourself being taken down by someone how to apply WC conepts and principles to take control and recover the situation. MG

First, I think it more useful to train to not be taken down (if we do go down it means our skills have failed, and if that's the case do you expect them to now work on the ground?). This explains, IMO, why WCK historically has not involved groundfighting. Second, "tumbling" like the breakfalls of judo and aikido (which is not a part of WCK) only work because these arts adopted throwing techniques that permit safe falling; most falls that a person takes, including those from takedowns of a number of arts, including WCK, will not allow those types of breakfalls. In fact, WCK "throws" involve taking an opponent dows to that he lands in a way that injures him. Third, to become really competant in breakfalls requires a great deal of practice; when I studied judo, the beginners did nothing but practice and take falls for 6 months, and then we reinforced those skills at every practice. TN

--------\

"Open hand vs. knife"? This is pure nonsense and fantasy. TN

That's your opinion. Fortunately the rest of the world doesn't share it. Nope, the kum na material used to break locks and holds on you can also be used for disarming. No kali "guntags" and limb destructions needed. MG

I'll tell you what Marty. Before you give your seminar, hand out red magic markers to each of your seminars participants and then face each individual: show them how it can work. Tell them that the marker is a knife and that you want them to try their best -- resist you the best they can -- to slash/poke/cut you with it. (And why not film this and put it on the net afterward? I think we'd all like to see such a demo of high level skill). If you can't do that successfully, then what are you teaching? It would seem to me that if you can't do it, then you are teaching pure nonsense and fantasy. TN

---------/

The material will cover applying Robert's methods on the ground as well. You tried to say on the WCML they don't work there, and as I said before I've had plenty of private discussions on this with our Sifu about them working there.
The methods work anywhere - standing, leaning, sitting on a chair, lying on the ground, etc. Although the aptitude needed to see to that depth of his material doesn't seem to be available to everyone. MG

Marty, stop trying to bring our sifu into the discussion. If you think you can make *your* "WCK groundfighting" work (you obviously have "the aptitude" ;) ), then come visit me and I'll take you to the BJJ studio here and let you roll with them. We can film it, and put it up on the net so that everyone can see how it's done. I'm willing to make a cash sidebet that will cover all your expenses and more; if you win, I give you the $; if you lose, you pay nothing. Please come. TN

Terence

[kj]

Marty, I am sorry for your Mother's ongoing condition. My thoughts and prayers remain with you both.

As for school, I took the long, slow road myself and know how good it can be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Good luck in all your other endeavors as well.

All the best,
- Kathy Jo

[martyg]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Marty,

Marty, please . . . "WCK-based tumbling"? TN

Yes, anotherwords if you find yourself being taken down by someone how to apply WC conepts and principles to take control and recover the situation. MG

[QUOTE][B]
First, I think it more useful to train to not be taken down


I covered that at the last seminar I did down there. This one is a continuation now covering the other side of the coin.



(if we do go down it means our skills have failed, and if that's the case do you expect them to now work on the ground?).



Skills fail all the time, including standing. Hence the need to know how to regain the centerline if you've lost it, and how to break into an opponent's centerline from the outside gates



This explains, IMO, why WCK historically has not involved groundfighting.


Wing Chun has not involved gun fighting historically, yet one of your seniors has applied the art to guns as well. As Rene said, the art doesn't exist in a vacuum. One of the great strenghts of this art is the ability is it's adaptibility. For it's concepts and principles to allow application in any sort of situation, depending entirely on your relationship with your opponent rather than static positionings and interactions.



Second, "tumbling" like the breakfalls of judo and aikido (which is not a part of WCK) only work because these arts adopted throwing techniques that permit safe falling; most falls that a person takes, including those from takedowns of a number of arts, including WCK, will not allow those types of breakfalls. In fact, WCK "throws" involve taking an opponent dows to that he lands in a way that injures him.


Ok, so in the oft chance I happen to fall (I'll try to make sure I'm never on a slippery surface when I get attacked, or there's never anything around me to impede my movement and fall over so I can keep this in your perfect world), I'll just lay there in my misery and pain going "Ohhhhh, Terence was riiigghttt. I neeeed to just lie here and let the guy dooooo whatever he wannntttsss. Ohhhhh, the paaaainnnn."



Third, to become really competant in breakfalls requires a great deal of practice; when I studied judo, the beginners did nothing but practice and take falls for 6 months, and then we reinforced those skills at every practice. TN


Therein lies the problem, as you seem to be comparing this material to other art's "breakfalls" when you have no idea of the dynamics of what I'm teaching. Aptitude and skill can vary on the method being taught and the approach used to teach them. With my approach students get fairly proficient within several lessons (2 hours each) of learning and practicing. Then it goes on to be incoprated in to the other material - how to regain the center and stand or how to stay there and control until you can stand again. So they get more practice in a variable situation with that as well.







I'll tell you what Marty. Before you give your seminar, hand out red magic markers to each of your seminars participants and then face each individual: show them how it can work. Tell them that the marker is a knife and that you want them to try their best -- resist you the best they can -- to slash/poke/cut you with it. (And why not film this and put it on the net afterward? I think we'd all like to see such a demo of high level skill). If you can't do that successfully, then what are you teaching? It would seem to me that if you can't do it, then you are teaching pure nonsense and fantasy. TN


What a fantastic argument if it wasn't based on a shallow attempt to undermine by trying to establish a measuring stick of credibility to try and turn the argument around. One of the first things anybody involved in knife fighting will tell you is that you will get cut. To expect it, and to try and minimize it by showing where the best areas on the arms are to take a cut if you have to. In fact one of the first drills I do is something very similar to what you described above to show how easy it is to get cut and get over the fear of it.




The material will cover applying Robert's methods on the ground as well. You tried to say on the WCML they don't work there, and as I said before I've had plenty of private discussions on this with our Sifu about them working there.
The methods work anywhere - standing, leaning, sitting on a chair, lying on the ground, etc. Although the aptitude needed to see to that depth of his material doesn't seem to be available to everyone. MG


Marty, stop trying to bring our sifu into the discussion. TN


Terence, quit whining as usual. He was relevant enough for you to bring him in to it in the original discussion back on the WCML.
But being the type of person you are, you like to try and re-interpret things to suit your argument. Wonder where that comes from. ;) We're not talking about people's skills here, I'm quite comfortable with mine. We're talking about methods and methodology and more specifically to a certain person's. You argued once before that our method specifically doesn't work there and is not meant to be applied there. I mentioned two people who both say it can. Pretty simple.

Here I thought you were taking time off the WCML because you got tired of the constant bickering and wanted to train more and focus on important things. Then I hear you stop returning people's calls and don't keep in contact. Then I see you've got plenty of time to whine and ***** with a capital B across threads on this message board.



If you think you can make *your* "WCK groundfighting" work (you obviously have "the aptitude" ;) ), then come visit me and I'll take you to the BJJ studio here and let you roll with them. We can film it, and put it up on the net so that everyone can see how it's done. I'm willing to make a cash sidebet that will cover all your expenses and more; if you win, I give you the $; if you lose, you pay nothing. Please come. TN


Only if you prove *your* WCK skills are superior enough not to be taken down. After all, if as you say you only go down because your skills fail then that must never happen to you being the highly skilled person you are. In Terence's World[tm] all is perfect and his views reign supreme.

[martyg]

Originally posted by kj
Marty, I am sorry for your Mother's ongoing condition. My thoughts and prayers remain with you both.

As for school, I took the long, slow road myself and know how good it can be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Good luck in all your other endeavors as well.

All the best,
- Kathy Jo


Kathy, thanks for the good wishes. I appreciate it.
Hope all is going well for you as well in your endeavours.

[martyg]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Marty- sorry to hear about your mom. Best wishes, Joy

PS I face a health challenge taking care of my mom too-
an extra sourse of fellow feeling.


Thank you Joy, I wish you well with your mother as well. Wow, she must be up around 100. What's her secret? :)

[canglong]

"First, I think it more useful to train to not be taken down (if we do go down it means our skills have failed, and if that's the case do you expect them to now work on the ground?). This explains, IMO, why WCK historically has not involved groundfighting." --TN

Still you could get taken down from behind by surprise and then what? What makes you so sure that WCK historically has not involved groundfighting? According to RRitchie WCK has been evolving for the past 150 years does that mean people weren't going to the ground back then?

[t_niehoff]

martyg writes:

Wing Chun has not involved gun fighting historically, yet one of your seniors has applied the art to guns as well. As Rene said, the art doesn't exist in a vacuum. One of the great strenghts of this art is the ability is it's adaptibility. For it's concepts and principles to allow application in any sort of situation, depending entirely on your relationship with your opponent rather than static positionings and interactions. MG

WCK is not all things. Unfortunately we need more than just "concepts and principles" to have an effective kuen faat, we also need things like tools (techniques), training methods, etc. There are methods, like BJJ, that are ground-fighting based and their tools reflect that, as does their training, etc. If you go to the ground, they have more ammunition, more training, etc. TN

Ok, so in the oft chance I happen to fall (I'll try to make sure I'm never on a slippery surface when I get attacked, or there's never anything around me to impede my movement and fall over so I can keep this in your perfect world), I'll just lay there in my misery and pain going "Ohhhhh, Terence was riiigghttt. I neeeed to just lie here and let the guy dooooo whatever he wannntttsss. Ohhhhh, the paaaainnnn." MG

If the ground is a concern for you (it didn't seem to be for Sum Nung or Leung Jan, and they fought wrestlers), then take up BJJ like many WCK people have. WCK doesn't have the tools, training methods, etc. for dealing effectively (against a skilled opponent) lying on the ground; if you believe that you do, then prove it. It's that simple; don't tell us, show us. Instead of reinventing the wheel, it would better IMO to learn from those persons who really have skills on the ground. Do you disagree with the premise of seeking out those that can do it? TN

One of the first things anybody involved in knife fighting will tell you is that you will get cut. To expect it, and to try and minimize it by showing where the best areas on the arms are to take a cut if you have to. In fact one of the first drills I do is something very similar to what you described above to show how easy it is to get cut and get over the fear of it. MG

What the first thing that anybody skilled with a knife (do you know anyone truly "involved in knife fighting"?) will tell you is that you will get killed if you face unarmed a person armed with a knife who knows how to use it. My point is that if you teach then you should at least have the skills you are claiming to teach others. I assumed you didn't want to face anyone with a live blade, so I used the red magic markers. And what I'm telling you is that you'd get more than "cut", you'd be "killed" over and over again if you faced folks trying to resist you. Fighting isn't a matter of knowing tricks or techniques or methods, it involves skill. To fight unarmed against a knife requires the highest level of skill, and skill much higher than the opponent's. Very, very few have that level of skill. TN

We're not talking about people's skills here, I'm quite comfortable with mine. We're talking about methods and methodology and more specifically to a certain person's. MG

You are completely and absolutely wrong. It has everything to do with skill. It is skill that permits us to use methods. How do you know what you are teaching is valid -- because someone told you so? Or you think so? This is not our way. If you can't do it, then you shouldn't be teaching it. If you can do it, then you should welcome the opportunity to show you can (it would make you almost unique among WCK instructors). TN

Only if you prove *your* WCK skills are superior enough not to be taken down. After all, if as you say you only go down because your skills fail then that must never happen to you being the highly skilled person you are. MG

Again, you miss the point. I'm not teaching any public seminar and holding myself out as some authority as you are. I'm not saying that I can teach anyone how not to be taken down so I don't need to prove anything (if I taught such a seminar, I'd be the first to demonstrate what I could do). You, on the other hand, are saying you can teach folks to fight effectively on the ground using WCK -- fine, then prove it. Beat someone skilled in groundfighting using your WCK groundfighting. You claim to be able to teach folks to fight empty-handed against the knife. Fine -- then prove it. TN

Here I thought you were taking time off the WCML because you got tired of the constant bickering and wanted to train more and focus on important things. Then I hear you stop returning people's calls and don't keep in contact. Then I see you've got plenty of time to whine and ***** with a capital B across threads on this message board. MG

That's not why I left the WCML but I don't see the point going into that here. My training is going fine; you're always welcome to come train with us, Marty. What goes on in my personal life is no concern of yours. And I didn't start this thread -- you did. If you want to post nonsense and fantasy, then don't be surprised that someone calls you on it. If you had been following this forum, you'd see that we have previously taken up this topic (folks being able to teach what they claim). My premise is simple: if you claim to be able to teach folks to catch bullets with their teeth, then prove you can do it first. Can you object to that? TN

Terence

[Rolling_Hand]

--You claim to be able to teach folks to fight empty-handed against the knife. Fine -- then prove it.-- TN

--If you want to post nonsense and fantasy, then don't be surprised that someone calls you on it. If you had been following this forum, you'd see that we have previously taken up this topic (folks being able to teach what they claim). My premise is simple: if you claim to be able to teach folks to catch bullets with their teeth, then prove you can do it first. Can you object to that?-- TN

-------------------------------------------------------------

Terence,

I agree with you 100% on this one!

For the mind talks.

But the body knows.

No Ch'an here,

Just something sound or reasonable .

Roger

[anerlich]

Marty,

Sorry to hear about your mother. Much sympathy from your Aussie friends.

Good luck with the seminar. Don't waste your energy on the silly arguments on this thread. Let the self appointed style guardians go bite themselves.

Good luck

Andrew

[canglong]

Marty, With a little over a month to go I hope everything is going well with the prep and planning. Enjoy a successful and enlightening expereince.