Questions about Choy Lay Fut

[shadowronin5]

Hi. I'm thinking about taking Choy Lay Fut, but I have some questions I would like to have answered before I join a school. I just wont to make sure its right for me.

Is it an external style or an internal style? What is the sash ranking system like? How long are the sashes? How do you wrap or tie them? What is the highest sash rank? How long does it take to get that sash? Does Choy Lay Fut focus more on punching or kicking? What kinds of weapons are used? What is the average tuition per month? How does Choy Lay Fut handle in tournaments and real life situations? What are the requirements for advancement? Is it easier to train in boxers or briefs?

I know no two schools are the same and that two students from the same school will have the same opinions. I think the answers you guys can give me will help me figure out what to ask when I decide to join. Thanks a lot.

[Sho]

Is it an external style or an internal style?Both elements are equally inherent, but generally CLF has a reputation of being an external system.


What is the sash ranking system like?It depends. You might or might not have belts in your school. Our sash colours are quite similar to the ones used in karate and judo.


How long are the sashes?Want me to measure? Heh. Well, they're pretty long. You can wrap a sash approximately thrice around your body (which also depends).


How do you wrap or tie them?Wrap it twice around your waist and tie it neatly.


What is the highest sash rank?Black sash is the highest sash according to our ranking system.


How long does it take to get that sash?Years. You'll have plenty of time to contemplate on it when you start. ;)


Does Choy Lay Fut focus more on punching or kicking?It focuses on realistic applications combining both punching and kicking techniques. But you'll see more hand techniques in forms, apparently.


What kinds of weapons are used?Both northern and southern weapons. All 18 traditional Chinese weapons are used.


What is the average tuition per month?Depends (again). But I'd say approximately the same amount that you'd expect from any other CMA school.


How does Choy Lay Fut handle in tournaments and real life situations?You'll have to evaluate it yourself.


What are the requirements for advancement?If you're talking about sash advancement, then it's mainly forms.


Is it easier to train in boxers or briefs?Which ever suits you best.

[Sho]

And my personal advice to you would be to go for it. I'm sure you'll be fond of it - every bit of it.

[monk weed]

I think that clf has something for everyone. It is a fairly complete system. Don't get too hung up on "sash or belt" levels. What you put into training is directly proportional to what you get out of it. Some schools focus only on forms and then there are schools that concentrate on fighting. I think a good school will offer a good balance of both. Just out of curiosity what clf school are you considering in CT. ?

[shadowronin5]

The Tat Wong Academy in Middletown.

[cha kuen]

Choy Lay Fut is an external style regardless of what anyone says. At the high high high level of martial arts external arts are internal and internal arts are external.

Since none of us are even remotely close to there, don't even worry about that part. As for the sash system, that varies from school to school, not the style.

Choy Lay fut is primiarly a long range fighting style with many hooks, uppercuts and such. THey also use the waist a lot to generate power and have a few basic kicks such as the front kick, side kick, crescent kicks and stuff. Very high impact style and you'll get one hell of a workout doing the sets. They have some trapping but it more in and out rather than trapping, counter for counter like wing chun or mantis. (since it's a long range style)

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by cha kuen
Choy Lay fut is primiarly a long range fighting style with many hooks, uppercuts and such. THey also use the waist a lot to generate power and have a few basic kicks such as the front kick, side kick, crescent kicks and stuff. Very high impact style and you'll get one hell of a workout doing the sets. They have some trapping but it more in and out rather than trapping, counter for counter like wing chun or mantis. (since it's a long range style)

CLF is well known for its long range techniques but we also have a lot of close range fighting techniques as well. They were having a discussion on this in www.clfma.com forum only recently, I have cut and pasted the following for your interest:

"I think that the choy lee fut should evolve more, in the grappling field we should take something of other stiles as jiu-jitsu, this wouldnt suppose to betray our origins, but to improve our future. Regards from the land of the castles in Spain"

“Well you need to seek out a better teacher because my teacher taught us grappling, throws, takedowns, joint locks and how to fight with these and even the form that teaches parts of this( Sup Baart loi oi lim sau??). Choy Lee fut has these techniques for close range fighting. Maybe someday you will learn these. We trained these 12 years ago in European seminars with my Sifu. I will write something about this in the coming month so you will understand there is little need to look outside the style for such techniques. I teach these techniques to my collegues that work many nightclub security jobs. Start your self with Kow Tarn leg throws with a partner. Yeurng kil chow kirk larp kil darn lar. Train the three internal gates of the choy lee fut Bay keut and you will be able to throw and lock up your opponent. Laarp kil bo jung. Train your elbows to cover the three gates and your waist to throw.”

[Ben Gash]

Cha Kuen, have you like ever done CLF? The more I train in it the more I marvel at just how internal it is. The techniques are devastating at close range, and the trapping is just as sophisticated as Wing Chun. Indeed, when I do Chi Sao with Wing Chun guys they're shocked. Choy Li Fut guys very rarely go in and out. We just go in. If that doesn't work then we go in a bit more, then a bit more, then a bit more. If that still doesn't work we'll throw you.

[monk weed]

I think I'm inbetween ben gash and cha kuen. Very true that clf is a very aggressive style that moves forward, alot of intercepting and bridging. However clf also has techniques for retreating although you must stay aggressive..i.e constantly throwing punches while retreating. I'm not sure what cha kuen means by in and out for trapping. Clf does have a lot of soft redirecting and circular movements that could be thought of as internal. But what ever you make of clf one thing is very clear, that clf is aggressive and fast moving.

[Ben Gash]

Internal doesn't mean slow :confused: :confused: :confused:
Xingyi isn't slow, Bagua is seldom slow, Baji isn't slow and Pigua isn't slow. However they are all internal. Internal is about how you use your body. It's about uniting the 6 harmonies to generate power. Bajiquan is probably one of the most aggressive systems in existence, but it's definitely internal.

[Ben Gash]

Choy Li fut makes huge use of silk reeling and a healthy amount of fa jing.

[Fu-Pow]

Choy Lay Fut has internal components but I would not confuse it with "level" of "internalness" that an art like Taiji has.

[monk weed]

Sorry I must have missed something.
who said that internal ment slow. Was some post deleted.

[Ben Gash]

The flow of the last line of your previous post suggests that, although you didn't mean it. Fu Pow, as someone who does both I'd have to disagree really.
Interestingly I was chatting with a longfist practitioner friend from Taipei and I asked him if he was doing anything internal and he said "yeah, longfist"

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Choy Lay Fut has internal components but I would not confuse it with "level" of "internalness" that an art like Taiji has.

Fu-Pow,

How do you gauge the "level" of "internalness" between CLF and Taiji?

[CLFNole]

I think the problem that arises is what people think "internal" is. Too much of what people think is internal is due to the fact that they see a lot of tai chi and push hands demo's, which are typically at a slower pace with a slightly different flow or feel than an "external" art like clf.

To me clf is loaded with internal type moves that have somewhat a "feel" to them that is different from a standard move. There are internal aspects to the long staff as well as a variety of hand forms and other weapons the "internal" things just are not as visually obvious. Best example when sifu would show us a move and it looked so easy yet there was a totally different power he generated compared to what we could, aspects of internal felt but not easily seen.

Just my thoughts.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

CLFNole,

Good points, what is your definition of "internal' and "external" martial arts and how do you gauge the level of "internalness" and "externalness"? What constituted an "internal" move as compared to an "external" move?

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

That is difficult to answer. To me all martial arts are just that martial arts, styles differ in their theories and "feel", however they all share in a common end result i.e. teaching one to defend themselves and keep mind and body fit.

Gauging the level of internal and/or external is difficult to say since I don't know about every style in depth. Most kung fu styles I know about or have seen incorporate both internal and external because you really cannot have one without the other.

I don't think an internal move necessarily has to do with "moving chi" like many tai chi people like to preach. To me the whole "chi" thing is made out to be far to "magical". I believe is magic I believe in what is real and what can be logically explained. I think with the proper discipline one can to great things with the intrinsic energy the lies within the body, that being said I don't think people can shoot chi around like its some kind of laser gun either.

To me (and this is just my opinion I have only been doing clf for 10 years so I am hardly and expert) but an example of an "external" move would be straight forward technique that require less subtleties than an "internal" move where various things such as weight shift, body alignment and other physical aspects are required with such prescion that they are able generate great power with little physical effort.

Of course I know you will come back and say external will follow internal and vica versa but I tried to answer as best I could. This is hard to verbalize.

Peace.

[Serpent]

There's a very interesting discussion on this subject here. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=19227)

Worth a look.

:)

[T. Cunningham]

I think the general martial populace tends to equate "internal" styles with soft flowing movements and the occasional fa ging. They equate "external" styles with strong muscular force. In my opinion there is no internal or external style, just a different approach to training the energy. Some begin training the energy from the start and work on the delivery system later. Some work on the delivery system first and the energy later. Some work the energy and delivery system together.

Someone mentioned that CLF has only a few basic kicks. Its my understanding that CLF has 9 kicks covering short to long range, lower gate to upper gate, and everything in between. In fact, there is a form that concentrates primarily on kicks. Its a very complete system.

[extrajoseph]

Serpent,

Thanks for the lead, that was great read. Here is my 2 cents worth:

External - What is on the outside that can be seen. The outer or the Yang aspects of Kung Fu. Internal - What is in the inside that can not be seen. The inner or the Yin aspects of Kung Fu.

The Weijia system emphasized the External first and work towards the Internal. The Neijia system emphasized the Internal first and work towards the External.

In the end, the Taiji guy has externalise his inner strength by fajing if he wants to throw a decent punch or push someone yards away, and the CLF guy has to internalise his sow chui (pay attention to the inner aspects like proper focus and what the inside of your body is doing) to do the same.

That means the posture and movement (the external), the breath (the in between) and the mind (the internal) got to be right in both cases. When the External complements the Internal and vise versa we "got qi" and we not only look different but can feel the difference as well.

The perceived differences between the Weijia and Neijia is only one of emphasis and training approach, that is all. "Meng kuen yat li" (all fists have the same principle) - it is just different ways to get to the same point.

The problem is we have made a mountain out of a molehill with the Internal/External stuff like all these romance fictions and pornographic tales about what is true love for someone who has never been in love before (I think you said that).

In everything we do, including love and kung fu, there is always the "doing" part and the "thinking of doing" part and we feel great when the two come together. But some guys just like to do it without thinking too much while other guys like to think about it a lot but never really do it. IMO, the best is to do both at the same time as often as possible. :D

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

You basically put what I was thinking and trying to say into something easy to understand. I think that your grasp of the english language is sometimes better than us "gwai lo's". I think the point most well made is the part about not being able to see the internal aspects. This is what I was referring to when I was mentioning "feel". Its something that is hard to describe and not always easy to teach but rather you have to feel it.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

CLFNole,

Charm gwai, charm gwai! Ngo sup ng seu sin hok Ying Meng, ngo sia dak ng ho. Nei yau sum.

[CLFNole]

Took me and my wife awhile to figure out the chinese english but I got it. Wow didn't know you have been here that long.

Oh by the way do you know of a Sifu (he passed away in the 90s) in Montreal who was a student of Fong Yuk Shu or maybe a grandstudent. Well anyhow his student or girlfriend (soemthing like that) came down and trained with us for a week on time. She said she ran the school after the sifu had passed away and that her si hing/dai didn't like her much (wonder why :) ). Do you know who I am talking about?

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Yes, I know whom you are talking about, she is a Chinaman dressed in white skin, a CLF 300%er and does a mean lion dance routine. She's a full on character, so you either like her or you don't. Girlfriend? Hmm... I wonder. :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Serpent,

Thanks for the lead, that was great read. Here is my 2 cents worth:

External - What is on the outside that can be seen. The outer or the Yang aspects of Kung Fu. Internal - What is in the inside that can not be seen. The inner or the Yin aspects of Kung Fu.

The Weijia system emphasized the External first and work towards the Internal. The Neijia system emphasized the Internal first and work towards the External.

In the end, the Taiji guy has externalise his inner strength by fajing if he wants to throw a decent punch or push someone yards away, and the CLF guy has to internalise his sow chui (pay attention to the inner aspects like proper focus and what the inside of your body is doing) to do the same.

That means the posture and movement (the external), the breath (the in between) and the mind (the internal) got to be right in both cases. When the External complements the Internal and vise versa we "got qi" and we not only look different but can feel the difference as well.

The perceived differences between the Weijia and Neijia is only one of emphasis and training approach, that is all. "Meng kuen yat li" (all fists have the same principle) - it is just different ways to get to the same point.

The problem is we have made a mountain out of a molehill with the Internal/External stuff like all these romance fictions and pornographic tales about what is true love for someone who has never been in love before (I think you said that).

In everything we do, including love and kung fu, there is always the "doing" part and the "thinking of doing" part and we feel great when the two come together. But some guys just like to do it without thinking too much while other guys like to think about it a lot but never really do it. IMO, the best is to do both at the same time as often as possible. :D

XJ, this is an excellent post. Thanks.

[Jabb]

About the sash system: In Chan's family CLF the sash ranking goes like this:

White (no sash)
Yellow
Orange
Orange/Green
Green
Green/Blue
Blue
Blue/Lila
Lila
Brown
Black, 1. DAN -> 10. DAN (Red sash, Great Grandmaster)

My sifu said, that it takes atleast 15-18 years to get a black sash, and by then you've learned only 28 forms out of total 194 forms. Lots of training to do :rolleyes: . He also said that it's impossible to get 10. DAN Red sash, only the great grandmaster has it. When our grandmaster is old enough, he will pass the rest of the knowledge of CLF to someone worth it, and he will take the place. This what I say is valid in Chan's family CLF; don't know about the rest of the schools out there.

But remember: don't train for sashes, train for yourself :)

[JAZA]

I think it isn't an standard this belt system.
I've never heard of the use of dan, but international master level, I , II.

[Jabb]

Originally posted by JAZA
I think it isn't an standard this belt system.
I've never heard of the use of dan, but international master level, I , II.
Yeah, I've never seen this before, but good that theres some different systems out there ;) . At
5-6 DAN you're a master and at 7-9 DAN you're grandmaster.

[shadowronin5]

Thank you everyone. All the info and opinions have really helped. I'm looking forward to taking Choy Lay Fut, but I have to wait until I get a better paying job. I still have a few questions, however I think I should ask the Sifu (or students) at the school I've choosen. I have no doubts that i wont love Choy Lay Fut.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Jabb
About the sash system: In Chan's family CLF the sash ranking goes like this:

White (no sash)
Yellow
Orange
Orange/Green
Green
Green/Blue
Blue
Blue/Lila
Lila
Brown
Black, 1. DAN -> 10. DAN (Red sash, Great Grandmaster)

My sifu said, that it takes atleast 15-18 years to get a black sash, and by then you've learned only 28 forms out of total 194 forms. Lots of training to do :rolleyes: . He also said that it's impossible to get 10. DAN Red sash, only the great grandmaster has it. When our grandmaster is old enough, he will pass the rest of the knowledge of CLF to someone worth it, and he will take the place. This what I say is valid in Chan's family CLF; don't know about the rest of the schools out there.

But remember: don't train for sashes, train for yourself :)

This is not a universal Chan family system of rank. Only Finland uses this system, other countries use different systems and some countries have no particular ranking system. I'm surprised to see "Dan" ranks within a CLF school!