Attn: Benny Meng

[Mckind13]

Hello Benny Meng or Students,

I have tried to e-mail Benny through the web page in the past and have never received a reply. (This was around the time of the HFY luk sau seminar).

At any rate I met Fong and Jing Jing Evans here in San Diego.

They send their regards and best wishes. Also though they would like to be in Ohio for the upcoming event, they cannot and wish Benny and his students luck.

Thanks if someone in Dayton can pass this on for me.

David McKinnon

[Mckind13]

This is what happens when you do not troll or offend someone.

Maybe I should have said the people from the jing institute think Benny and his beatniks in Ohio don't know wushu from a hole in the ground. But I was being nice and passed on a greeting from them. When most people on this forum ask another forum member to say hello or send a greeting it warrants at least a "will do."

Glad the Daytonites can spare a few keystrokes to acknowledge that some of us are working on inter-art friendships.

(LOL) sorry guys just want to make sure my message gets through.

David

[kj]

You are right. It is interesting that in general, trolling and negativity get far more attention and reinforcement than substantive and positive offerings. In our respective and well-intended efforts to be succint or stay on topic, we also miss frequent opportunities to reinforce constructive behaviors, or conversely to extinct undesireable ones by ignoring them. These are among the more self-defeating and ironic aspects of our human natures. Odd creatures, we human beings.

In any event, good for you for contributing something positive. Just my view from the peanut gallery. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Savi]

Mr. Mckinnon,

I will be at the VTM this weekend. I read your post yesterday and notified my Sifu last night. I will be conveying the message in person to Master Meng, unless another family member has already done so.

Sorry for the apparently 'late' reply, but I am extremely preoccupied with work! Our family appreciates your efforts to pass on Fong and Jing Jing Evans' message.

Please understand some of us at times may become too busy to keep up with the forum. I have to get back to work...

Thank you,
-Savi.

[canglong]

David, I think you just needed to look at the number of people that read your post to know that Sigung Meng had probably gotten your message. I personally didn't reply to it because I thought you would have been better off sending that message directly to the Museum as apposed to posting a message to this forum addressing my Sigung by his first name with out the use of a proper title such as Mr. or Sifu or Master. I for one thought your post was rather rude. I see you don't see it that way or you might not have done this but that is how I saw it so that is why I did not reply to your post. This is of course just for future reference. Have a good day Mr. Mckinnon, see how easy that was.

[reneritchie]

FWIW -

Firstly - the internet has always been, and remains, an informal medium. One look at email tells you it is not written like a business letter proper. "ATTN: Futa1" is far more common than "Dear UFC Light Heavyweight Champ Mr. Ortiz" and you can take a look at financial message boards to see how captains of industry and fortune 500 ceo's are typically addressed online.

Secondly - unless you have deliberately been given very skewed misrepresentations of Chinese culture, addressing someone by their full name is pretty cool. Unless the person in question is *your* sifu, the appelation is just as meaningful for a taxi driver (though I don't recommend anyone run out to the corner and start b!tching out the people hailing 'em down as being disrespectful ;) )

Thirdly - demanding something is often not as effective as earning it. If anyone with any sense read the original post, in between attacking people on the tournament threads, they would have likely responded with a quick 'thank you' and perhaps even a 'same back at you'. Goodwill entreats goodwill.

There's a lot of unnecessary BS that divides and separates our art, and its unfortunate that the divide seems to be growing as fast, if not faster, than the art.

[canglong]

I read that in English not in Canadian maybe that's the difference there but I do know in English my Sigung has earned every title he posses. Secondly I reiderate emailing the museum would have been a better medium for delivery of that specific message and you and I wouldn't have to waste bandwith discussing moduk or internet ettiquette such as this.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kj
You are right. It is interesting that in general, trolling and negativity get far more attention and reinforcement than substantive and positive offerings. In our respective and well-intended efforts to be succint or stay on topic, we also miss frequent opportunities to reinforce constructive behaviors, or conversely to extinct undesireable ones by ignoring them. These are among the more self-defeating and ironic aspects of our human natures. Odd creatures, we human beings.

In any event, good for you for contributing something positive. Just my view from the peanut gallery. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
KJ,

Stop trolling. :p

[Savi]

Originally posted by canglong
posting a message to this forum addressing my Sigung by his first name with out the use of a proper title such as Mr. or Sifu or Master. I for one thought your post was rather rude.....you and I wouldn't have to waste bandwith discussing moduk or internet ettiquette such as this.
This shouldn't even be a discussion, but I am in agreement with the fact that this is improper form, *whether* intended or not. Master Meng is a recognized and reputable master in the Gong Wu (martial community), and is considered to be one of the best in the world through his skills, accomplishments, and efforts. Is Master Meng expecting people to call him Master? I doubt it, but he should be addressed as such out of respect and form. Every person, especially at a master's level, I feel should be addressed with respect and courtesy.

------------------------------------------------

Whether this is a formal or informal environment, I think depends on the thread AND who is being addressed. If the moderator shared the view that everyone is on the same level, then the rules about Sifu-bashing ( for example ) would not exist. Sandman's rule about bashing would be restated to say "poster-bashing" instead of "sifu-bashing". Some people seem to be of the perspective that we are all on the same level, be you a sifu or not. In my opinion, this is not just any forum. It is a martial arts forum, and in a 'martial' environment titles should be taken into account FIRST, then see if the addressee prefers to be called by another fashion.

Please note this is not a 'demand'. I'm just stating my perspective for consideration, that's all :).

Regards,
-Savi.

[Mckind13]

Thanks for replying and notifying your respective Sifu about my message.

As I said initially, twice the emails I sent to your Sifu went ignored or missed. The first was confirming my attendance to the Kiu Sau seminar and the second was thanking him for his hospitality. The email I used was one he wrote directly to me so I do not know why it did not work.

Please send my regards with those from the Jing Institute.


David McKinnon

[Mckind13]

Hi Tony
No offense was meant. However was it really rude? Why not scold all those that call Grand Master Cheung or GM Lueng Ting or even Randy Williams (gasp) by there first names or by addressing them with less then appropriate titles or question there credentials. If you chose to uphold those standards for your clan shouldn’t your propriety extend to everyone? I have respect for everyone that passes on the art of Wing Chun honestly and completely. And while in the heat of debate I may have questioned the exact reason certain things were secret or withheld I have never questioned the integrity of your teacher as far as his teaching is concerned. Can the same be said for everyone and in reference to every teacher? Not always but within the confines of this forum we are certainly here to discuss and debate. So even while respecting the knowledge held by someone 30 years my veteran in the world of WCK I am freely open to discuss, question and debate openly and freely.

Thanks
David McKinnon

[Chango]

David,
I think you have noticed that the Dayton Members have not responded to this post yet. I can say that I did not see it until today because I check my "User control" and I check on the threads that I have already subscribed to when I really do not have time. So I don't view all WCK topics when I'm short on time. Believe me with the snow we are all busy! Also in my case two of my son's gearing up and just qualified for finals in our regional wrestling meet. I'm the matt coach so you will understand that time is of the esscence. Your message has been delivered. In the future if you would like to contact Sifu Meng just go over to the VTM web page and go to the "contact us" section. He will get it if you address it to him. If you have anymore problems getting through drop me a Private message and I will help out. This method could be taken wrong. Maybe not the best way to go about it. Well I have snow to shovel so I will let you get back to posting.

Chango (SGS)

here is the link

http://home.vtmuseum.org/

[KPM]

I can see why David posted here in a public forum. I have sent inquires to the VTM at the host address on more than one occassion without ever receiving a reply.

KPM

[t_niehoff]

Savi writes:

This shouldn't even be a discussion, S

Quite true. TN

but I am in agreement with the fact that this is improper form, *whether* intended or not. Master Meng is a recognized and reputable master in the Gong Wu (martial community), and is considered to be one of the best in the world through his skills, accomplishments, and efforts. S

I'm sorry -- "one of the best in the world" at what? TN

Is Master Meng expecting people to call him Master? S

An interesting question in many ways. ;) TN

I doubt it, but he should be addressed as such out of respect and form. Every person, especially at a master's level, I feel should be addressed with respect and courtesy. S

"Master level"? Can you tell me what precisely makes someone a "master" in your world? TN

Terence

[Geezer]

Don't even waste your time on this one, if you bite he will suck you into his world of selective memory, I'm a Lawyer and His-Story!!!!!!!

Sheldon;)

[Chango]

I find that when someone does not respect someone's title such as Dr.,Captian or even father. They seem to have a problem with others who have earned thier prespective titles. For some who doubt themselves some how it's hard to bestow and honor or title on another weather earned or not. For some it is an ego problem and a lack of maturity feelings of "I'm just as good as that person so why does he get the title?" So it is pointless to go down the path of "Master" or "Sifu" with Terence and friends. I say and friends becuase there had been a few others if I remember correctly from the other times we went over this in another forum. (not getting anywhere on the subject either) I personally believe that the only person qualified to give permission to become a Sifu is that persons own Sifu. I personally feel that if your Sifu does not feel that you are qualified to represent then you really do not have any business teaching or with that title. I realize this is just my personal view and I don't expect everyone to agree. But that is the first qualification that I look for before I view someone as a Sifu! I know quite a few people that try to say this system does this or that. But with out the proper recognition how can we be sure that person really understands what he/she is saying. I know a few Socalled Sifu's that say this WCK family does this or that. Or so and so's skill is no good. But they really don't seem to understand what they are saying. Or they seem to have hang ups with that person.

Sure some people have what some call "Sifu worship" that can go pretty fare at times. However I personally do not have any issues with someone admiring their Sifu. Becuase my Sifu has been not only a Master of kung fu but also a master in the moral realm as well. I started kung fu with him when I was 16 and I'm now 31 years old. And being raised by a single mother I have seen him step up and be a Sifu in my life keeping me straight. Leading by example and knowing when to give me the harsh truth but also helping me realize that I had it in me to be better as well. I have seen him and still watch him do the same thing for other students as well. taking resposiblity and leading by example for his students young and old. So now let's set his Martial arts skills aside and let's just examine the master. Well yeah I say "master" I say "master" indeed. You may not think this is the job of a Sifu but my standards are very different then yours hobviously. Charecter is a vital part of being a Master or Sifu if you ask me.

Terence I'm not sure what your relationship is with your Sifu but mine goes beyond kicking and punching. So you will have to excuse me if I get a little bothered by your direction in this post. I experience my Sifu's great skill on a daily basis. This is my own experince. Of course I'm not going to name names but being a VTM member I have met many skilled martial artist I mean on a global scale. I have no problem saying that his skill is one of the best in the world. Not to mention I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears (if you do not like the word master) a few leaders of other WCK systems pay great compliments to my Sifu on his skill. So I don't have to read a bio or look at any certificate to know that he has great skill. If you disagree I have to ask you "who the hell are you?" and it all comes in perspective. I can belive my own experiences and the words of a few today's top representatives of today's leading systems or I can believe some guy on the internet who rarely pays anyone the proper respect of Sifu? a guy that does not believe that one can reach a level of mastery in WCK. What does that say about your experiences? I'm sure you will have arguement in return. I understand that is just what you do. But I just want you to know this is not an arguement. I'm not against you. I'm only trying to help you work through a few things here. But I don't think you will see it. I don't know you might suprize me on this one.

Chango (saat geng sau)

[Savi]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
"Master level"? Can you tell me what precisely makes someone a "master" in your world? TN

Terence

My world does not exist for anyone else Terence except me, I was referring to the Gong Wu - not my world. But I am sure you were really asking what makes Master Meng a master. Right? Well since this thread is about him...

------------------------------------------

I am assuming (please forgive me) you are unaware of Master Benny Meng's certifications and achievements, and since this thread is about Master Meng, and you asked, here is a brief biography on him which is public information.

Master Meng's certifications:

- A principle founder and Curator of the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton, Ohio

- 7th Level Senior Instructor, Ving Tsun Athletic Association, Hong Kong

- 7th Degree Kung fu Black Sash (IMYVTKF)

- 5th Degree Tae Kwon Do Black Belt (WTF)

- Instructor in Chin Na and Tai Chi Chuan

- Noted Author of Books and Magazine Articles

- State and National Championships in Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do

- Outstanding Instructor and International Hall of Fame Awards

- National Director & Referee, WKF Wing Chun Competition Events

- A.S. Degree in Acupuncture

- Master Instructor for the Chinese Cultural Centers in Dayton and Cincinnati, Ohio

About his school and accomplishments:

- National and State champions every year since opening in 1987

- School recognized by international publications and martial arts promoters as one of the largest and most successful school systems in North America (6 branch schools throughout the U.S. and over 50 affiliates around the world)

- School decorated by the City of Huber Heights 6 times for special achievement in the development of local youths

- School decorated by the Ohio Senate and Ohio House of Representatives

- Co-sponsor of annual Battle of Dayton

Benny Meng (maahng hing fùng) began his Ving Tsun Gùng Fuh (wihng cheùn gùng fuh) training in Hong Kong in 1982 under the movie star Sì Fuh Lee Hoi Sang, a student of Jiu Wan (jìu wáhn). Jiu Wan had completed training in the Ving Tsun system through Chàhn Yúh Mìhnin Chinaprior to beginning his training with Yip Man. Chàhn Yúh Mìhn was the son of Chahn Wàh Seuhn.

In 1994, Benny Meng began another journey through the system with Sì Fuh Moy Yat, this time in private lessons. The goal of both the teacher and student was to examine the details and deeper aspects of the art form in totality as only a Master and his disciple can. These intense private lessons were completed in 1995. With Moy Yat's blessing, Benny Meng began another journey through the system in 1995 via extensive private lessons with his Sì Baak (gùng fuh uncle), Sì Fuh Yip Ching. This course of study was completed in November of 1997. Benny Meng has also trained with his Sì Baaks, Chu Shong Tin and Yip Chun. In 1998, Benny Meng was certified as a Senior Instructor by the Ving Tsun Athletic Association of the Yip Man lineage in Hong Kong.

In addition to the learning from those listed above, Benny Meng participated in numerous training experiences elsewhere in the Yip Man lineage with members of the William Cheung and Ho Kam Ming families.

The above training gave Benny Meng a comprehensive understanding of the system passed on by Yip Man. To broaden his knowledge of the original system, he sought further training from lineages separate from Yip man. Benny Meng had the privilege of studying under Sì Fuh Garret Gee in 1998 and became his disciple in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/information/committee/meng-bio.php

Regards,
-Savi.

[Geezer]

t_niehoff and others are well aware of Master Mengs and his students accomplishments but choose convientiently to ignore them;)

Rene wrote>

It's nice to see students of the same teacher have different opinions and be willing to discuss them, instead of just paroting some company line.

This makes me think, almost of the Anti-Christ, who would prefer to see chaos amounst brothers in arms rather than unity,IMHO;)

Sheldon

[Mckind13]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chango
[B]David,
I think you have noticed that the Dayton Members have not responded to this post yet. I can say that I did not see it until today because I check my "User control" and I check on the threads that I have already subscribed to when I really do not have time. Well I have snow to shovel so I will let you get back to posting.

Chango (SGS)

[QUOTE]

Thanks Chango,

I remember snow from my time in Canada I am sure you have your hands full.

Thanks for forwarding my message. I will try the web page next time maybe it was a bad link when I tried to use it before.

Congrats on your sons. Maybe you can post about your experience with wrestling and how you view it through the eyes of Wing Chun.

David

[Chango]

I find that WCK and Wrestling require very much the same things. Not to mentions some of what is WCK is combative wrestling. I that case I find it hard to pull the teeth on the tiger sorta speak. The rules of wrestling restrict the use of WCK but the realities of being human (time, space, energy) remain the same.,Another challenge is translating this information all into a language for my 11 and 10 year old to understand. However now that they have become more aware of position and distance and when to flow. Not to brag but these little guys have become almost unbeatable. My younger boy still has issues with trying to muscle kids. However he will be heavy going in this week so he will be in a much heavier tougher 5 man bracket. He wants to loose 5-6 lbs before the week end but I won't let him do the weight swings until high school. At his age it could be really bad. But back to WCK and wrestling. I find that giving them a few simple moves in the different ranges and knowing when to do them is far better then last years 10-20 moves and no real understanding. I'm really loving it. My boys are having a ball and learning to take responsibility for thier losses and mistakes. While realizing when winning they have to keep up the work or someone will gun for them. I cannot tell you how much this sport teaches them. I just hope they don't meet up in state against each other. I would just have to leave the areana LOL!!

[canglong]

David McKinnon,
I was not stating your intention just my interpretation so that you would be aware of how some people might view the post and I only did that because of your second post. Your relationship between my Sigung and yourself is a personal matter but this message board is not. As for others posting derrogatory remarks about others as Chango always says it says more about those persons making the remarks than about the people they refer to. Does the prevailing lack of respect on this board bother me yes read my tag line but I don't have a personal relationship with all the others you mention. I wasn't trying to stir up the hornets nest just give you my side of the story. Take care and enjoy the sun n surf in our sister city.

Terrence,
What we call our teachers and instructors is none of your business, next question please.

[reneritchie]

If there's a rule about "sifu bashing" on this forum, then that's rediculous. There should be a rule about "people bashing". While I may be a lowly, English-challenged Canuck (I tried to insert superfluous 'u' in there, and some accents), I do believe Americans value equality, and have heard some great philosophers espouse that the only moralities and courtesies that exist are those extended to the lowest members of any society.

WRT "best in the world", that's perfectly understandable and probably every student thinks their teacher or grandteacher or whomever is the "best in in the world" and deserving untold accolades (as I mentioned in another thread, we get this every few weeks when you're online over the years), but unfortunately, it tends to cause problems for that very reason. Why argue about what is, in essance, nonsense? People worthy of respect seldom demand it, and seldom tolerate those who demand it for them. Those that do tend to devolve into fighting with like minded individuals. Nature is beautifully efficient these days.

And its always, of course, funny that those who demand respect so seldom extend it. Leading by example isn't easy, but it is authentic.

Chango - Best of luck in your endeavors, and once again, I'm impressed by your ability to juggle so much.

[reneritchie]

The "grandmaster" took the podium and barked "Who amoung my students are individuals?"

Almost to a one, dressed in their matching uniforms, filled with their matching thoughts, they proclaimed "We are!"

And the one, in the far back corner, piped "Not me!"

Health, nature, evolution thrive on diversity. If everyone supported the same football team, there'd be no league. If everyone supported the same totalitarian dictator, there's be no freedom. If everyone married their sister or brother, there'd be no normal headed babies.

Does it surprise me that people fear divergent opinion? No. Control is always a primary strategic goal. Does it surprise me that people allow themselves to be controlled, that they don't even realize they are? Yes. But I take some comfort in the human spirit, which does not tolerate it long.

Just look at how those who do disagree are treated. Then realize that will be you one day. If its well, you have nothing to worry about, do you?

(BTW - It is extremely unfair of people to be putting Benny Meng sifu in such situations. As he is internet savy, were he wanting to make any complaints or demands, he could do so in person. For others to use his name in a manner that invites attacks on him is very poor form, and trolling at its worst. Speak for yourselves, then only you are at stake).

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>


The "grandmaster" took the podium and barked "Who amoung my students are individuals?"

Almost to a one, dressed in their matching uniforms, filled with their matching thoughts, they proclaimed "We are!"

And the one, in the far back corner, piped "Not me!"

Do "Grandmasters" really say that stuff:confused: surely if "people"(individuals) come together for what ever reason they would hold the same beliefs, Military, Firemen, Masons, Naturists hell the list could go on???? The one I like is the N.R.A.

Now different groups I could see having different ideas to each other but not normally in the same organisation, only maybe if the members of that organisation follow the example set by their leader?????

Rene Wrote>

It is extremely unfair of people to be putting Benny Meng sifu in such situations. As he is internet savy, were he wanting to make any complaints or demands, he could do so in person.
Rene, I'm not so sure on this!!!!!!
Rene Wrote>

For others to use his name in a manner that invites attacks on him is very poor form, and trolling at its worst. Speak for yourselves, then only you are at stake
Hang On, have you just cancelled out the top part of what was written by you, by using his name to fuel your arguement:confused:

Sheldon:p

[Savi]

:) Hi Rene. I do have some disagreements with some of your latest input here...

Rene said: "If there's a rule about "sifu bashing" on this forum, then that's rediculous. There should be a rule about "people bashing"."

:) To be certain Rene, but common sense is sometimes eluded by people. Sandman states what has ZERO tolerance, which I agree wholeheartedly. Take up your disagreement with the moderator.

Rene said: "As he is internet savy, were he wanting to make any complaints or demands, he could do so in person."

:) Please do not make any assumptions for or about my Sigung as I would not speak on behalf of yours.

Rene said: "It is extremely unfair of people to be putting Benny Meng sifu in such situations........ For others to use his name in a manner that invites attacks on him is very poor form, and trolling at its worst. Speak for yourselves, then only you are at stake)."

:) Rene, if you are referring to my Sibok Chango and me answering Terence's question, as we were the only ones answering Terence's skillfully worded question (a "master" in your world, Terence? sigh...), then call that trolling - then we are ALL trolls for answering questions. I don't think so bro.

You for one consistently tell people to lead by example, but have you stopped calling Roger 'Trolling Hand' yet??? Hmmmm..... some example Rene. At least you are consistent in some areas.

You also state in another thread that you will only discuss technical threads. What is technical about this? We are just answering people's questions here and having casual discussions. I see no hostility on this thread other than what you are starting.

Why is it that when Chango and I share the same thread you have to add in your detached negativity in the same spot? I do not think your luggage is warranted here, unless you would like to be a bit more polite rather than invite more attack by talking about others' behavior(s). Ah well, peace be with you.

Keep training all!
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Hi Savi,

I welcome your discussion, as always.


To be certain Rene, but common sense is sometimes eluded by people. Sandman states what has ZERO tolerance, which I agree wholeheartedly. Take up your disagreement with the moderator.

Er... I did.


Please do not make any assumptions for or about my Sigung as I would not speak on behalf of yours.

Er... I didn't.


Rene, if you are referring to my Sibok Chango and me answering Terence's question

I wasn't. Them's chum filled waters.


You for one consistently tell people to lead by example, but have you stopped calling Roger 'Trolling Hand' yet???

Yes.


You also state in another thread that you will only discuss technical threads. What is technical about this?

I've changed from technical threads to matters of the general WCK world. Irony and what not.


Why is it that when Chango and I share the same thread you have to add in your detached negativity in the same spot?

I simply offer my point of view, for any who want it.


Ah well, peace be with you.

And with you.

BTW - You can disagree with someone, even hate what they say, without hating the person. That's the trouble with radicals, they tend to hate the people. I welcome your comments, and I support your expression of them.