Intesting WT training clip

[planetwc]

http://www.wingtsun.zigzag.pl/film_sifu.htm

[PaulH]

Hi David,

I like the demos! Good explosive and fluid power delivery. Now if they can just do this in NHB...

Regards,

[cha kuen]

that is.. umm.. interesting.

[reneritchie]

Cool. I'm a firm believer WCK is robust enough to allow one to achieve excellence through a variety of different approaches and in the approach they have chosen, they certainly seem to be doing well.

[KenWingJitsu]

WT.....aggresive.

Love it.

[PaulH]

Each kwoon's training can be quite radical depending on your goal. If I train I would have to wear gloves just for my partner's protection. It is too easy to get hurt with bare hands. Here are a few clips of what we do. We try our best to apply what little that we know of the WC concepts in a more dynamic and resisting environment than the excellent movie above.

http://www.chez.com/baseweb/mojm1.mov
http://www.chez.com/baseweb/mojm2.mov
http://www.chez.com/baseweb/mojm3.mov

Regards,

[PaulH]

It appears that there is a problem of connecting to the video source on this forum. Just go to the www.chez.com/base. Select Francais version then go to the video options.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

"Page cannot be found" sez my screen

[PaulH]

My sincere apology for the typographical mistake. Please try www.chez.com/baseweb then navigate to the video button from our site.

Regards,

[azwingchun]

When you click on the video link it says page cannot be found.

[PaulH]

I really don't know how to help you more on this problem. If you did not select Francaise version, perhaps you should do it first before clicking on the video button. Try this link http://www.chez.com/baseweb/france.htm
then select the video option

Regards,

[azwingchun]

Sorry, my bad....LOL. Thanks for the link. ;)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by azwingchun
Sorry, my bad....LOL. Thanks for the link. ;)
http://www.chez.com/baseweb/mojm1.mov
http://www.chez.com/baseweb/mojm2.mov
http://www.chez.com/baseweb/mojm3.mov


FWIW, I got in by manually editing the links. I think that there was a server problem initially---probably we were all trying to get in at once and the bw wasn't available. Seems to be working now.

Not bad looking sparring in some ways. Of course, everyone's fundamentals have some differences. Because I always train with concern for structure, I look for that in other's Wing Chun. Never-the-less, thanks for sharing. Video clips really help to understand each other's practices.

Regards,

[PaulH]

Hi Grendel,

Thank you for your kind review of our sparring clips. We try to get as close as humanly possible to the actual fight reality without hurting the basic skills training process. The techniques or structures tend not to be clear cut but demonstrated in or during the actions of the sparrings. I would love to see other people's training video clips also if there are any available.

Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi Grendel,

Thank you for your kind review of our sparring clips. We try to get as close as humanly possible to the actual fight reality without hurting the basic skills training process. The techniques or structures tend not to be clear cut but demonstrated in or during the actions of the sparrings. I would love to see other people's training video clips also if there are any available.

Regards,
Hi Paul,

I found Your school's clips were much better examples than the original posting by PlanetWC. :D

I especially liked the realism and efficiency of the attacks. You give me some good food for thought.

BTW, how do the gloves affect what you're doing. They didn't really appear to impair the wearers in the clips. Have you noticed any effect on your Wing Chun when you are not wearing gloves?

Regards,

[PaulH]

We found gloves very useful to cut down on hand injuries as well as good safety cushions on our training partners. We can do Lop, Huen, Jut, Fook, push or pull, etc. with them on as well as with bare hands. Perhaps the hands just feel a little more tight and a little heavier with them on.

Regards,

[KenWingJitsu]

Thank you for your kind review of our sparring clips. We try to get as close as humanly possible to the actual fight reality without hurting the basic skills training process. The techniques or structures tend not to be clear cut but demonstrated in or during the actions of the sparrings. I would love to see other people's training video clips also if there are any available.
PaulH, first of all let me congratulate you on displaying o a REALISTIC CLIP OF TRAINING WITH RESISTANCE....AKA....SPARRING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
About Futhamocking time somebody did.
Thats's what I'm taling about. I train that way as well, in fact you'll find that some WT bracnches are willing to do the same, and the first clip might indicate that even though there isn't as much resistance as in your clip.

But let me say you probably won't see many other training clips from other members because too many people here are more concerned with how their bong sau looks that whether or not they can actually fight. :D

[burnsypoo]

resistance?

[PaulH]

Hello BP,

Could you narrow the scope of your question a little more?

Regards,



The first and most difficult point of all is: you have to believe in what I say. If you don't beleive it, when the person comes to attack you, you will resist him and then it will already be too late.- Professor Cheng

[Matrix]

Paul,

Thanks for the clips. I noticed that there were a couple of sections marked "A Venir...".
Could you please let us know when there have been additions made.

Merci Beaucoup,

Matrix

[PaulH]

Hi Matrix,

Will do! Our French webmaster is going to add more clips soon as well as working more on the English version.

Regards,

[Matrix]

Paul,

Don't worry about the English part. Those square-heads can take care of themselves. ;)

A la prochaine,
Matrix

[old jong]

...Blokes!...;) :D :p

[Stevo]

Merde alors! Mais qu'est-ce qui se passe?!?

Every time I get on that French website and try to open the video my computer locks up and I have to switch off and end up losing my connection. :mad: Oh well, maybe the English version won't be so temperamental when it comes online.

[UltimateFighter]

On the whole, those clips are not bad. The ones posted by PaulH are examples of a good format for sparring although the techniques used themselves are rather poor. It is best to avoid a flurry of weak punches and 'wing chun wrestling', and again the training was not full out. But it does highlight how bad we look in sparring compared to those MMA schools who do it regularly and incorporate full contact standup with excellent submission skills on the ground.

The WT demo is not impressive at all. I dislike the 'demonstration sparring' that I have seen from a lot of WT schools as it is basically improvised choreography as there is no actual attempt to fight made by the participants, just a show of flashy moves with one guy told to let the other show the techniques. The scenario and use of techniques was fast and showy but not realistic and would only seem impresive to a layman.

What we need to see is the full contact, almost NHB sparring of the WT fight clubs, especially from Denmark. From what I have heard that is basically anything goes until knockout or submission.

[PaulH]

I am quite young and inexperienced in comparison to the wisdom and fighting experience of other WC people in this board, so It is an unseemly thing to me to say things which I know nothing about. With regards to the poor techniques, I believe they are rather simple because the skills of the opponent is simple also. With greater challeges will require higher fighting skills. The video were made in the late 70's? and lot of water has passed through the bridge since. I am thankful for all your comments. Hopefully we can see and enjoy other clips from your own practice as well.

Regards,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Stevo
[B]Every time I get on that French website and try to open the video my computer locks up and I have to switch off and end up losing my connection. :mad: Try downloading the clips as opposed to running them directly from the site.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
...Blokes!...;) :D :p Oui Mon ami, c'est vrai. :D
Matrix

[KenWingJitsu]

"ones posted by PaulH are examples of a good format for sparring although the techniques used themselves are rather poor. It is best to avoid a flurry of weak punches and 'wing chun wrestling', and again the training was not full out."

Ultimate fighter,...let's see YOUR clip.

Yeah. Thats' what I thought.

PaulH , keep up the good work. everything you did is as it should be.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by PaulH
The video were made in the late 70's? and lot of water has passed through the bridge since. I am thankful for all your comments. Hopefully we can see and enjoy other clips from your own practice as well.

Hi Paul,

If everyone posted such exemplar clips of their kwoons, few would look as good as yours. You did a good thing sharing your clips on your website. In a worldwide forum such as this, there are always some whose imaginary exploits require them to disparage others as "too little" or "too much."

I would challenge UF to post a link to what he considers a better quality Wing Chun. He's just grown fearful from what his ancestors had to put up with:

http://www.rathergood.com/vikings/

I say again. Thanks and well shown.

Regards,

[UltimateFighter]

Kenpojitsu,

You seem to be fond of talking about what proper sparring is all the time, why not post a clip of yourself doing it if it that special.

No? Oh well, just stick to talking about it then.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Please refrain from personal attacks on each other, and try to keep the thread constructivly on topic.

[PaulH]

The recent posts of UF got me thinking over of the ways we do sparring as a next logical step toward actual fightings. I wish to point out some things in order to avoid some possible confusions. Forgive me if some of these are rather redundant or obvious to you. We do not train to knock out our partners as it is not an actual fight but rather just a training device to do/apply our WC techniques/concepts (psychology of the fight, the strategies and tactics of the combatants as well as various studies of our mistakes and its remedies during the fight, etc,) in order to improve our fighting ability the next time. The skill levels between the combatants also dictate how the sparring will be. In the clips that you saw, some people may not realize that due to the terrific stress or pressure applied on the defenders/receivers, they could not counter much effectively against such assaults being unused to its feelings and pressure. Hopefully in the future clips, you can see the same defenders actually do more techniques against lesser skilled opponents. Our goal then is to acquaint ourselfves gradually to greater pressure or stress both before and during the fight in the long run.

One last point, the kwoon does not have any specific WC wrestling to my knowledge but rather teach the mechanics of grappling from the BJJ perspective and let the students do their own things according to their level of understanding.

Regards,

[KenWingJitsu]

Well said Mr. moderator. Good to see Grendel shares my view :D

Paul H again, just so you know there are some here who already know what you mean and don't need an explanation. You can't kill your training partners, but you can train realistically which is what you're doing and I whole heartedly recommed it.

Can you share some info of your wing chun lineage?

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by PaulH
We do not train to knock out our partners as it is not an actual fight but rather just a training device to do/apply our WC techniques/concepts (psychology of the fight, the strategies and tactics of the combatants as well as various studies of our mistakes and its remedies during the fight, etc,) in order to improve our fighting ability the next time.

Hey PaulH,
just a thought... but I think that those clips show a good example of why some people object so strongly to the notion of sparring within wing chun training. Seeing the people run up to each other, and square-off/waiting 3 feet from each other seems to be counter to the fighting mentality that wing chun wants us to develop.
What do you think?

[PaulH]

Hi BP,

Could you explain more of what you mean by fighting mentality? I'm not clear on why sparring may work against it. Depending on your training goal, the sparring may or may not be favorable. Some highly skilled WC people do not have sparring programs and some do. The sparring makes good sense to me as it promotes greater experience and relaxation for difficult and stressful combat conditions.

Kenwingjitsu, You can see more details of my lineage from our website. Thanks again for your encouragement.

Regards,

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi BP,

Could you explain more of what you mean by fighting mentality? I'm not clear on why sparring may work against it. Depending on your training goal, the sparring may or may not be favorable. Some highly skilled WC people do not have sparring programs and some do. The sparring makes good sense to me as it promotes greater experience and relaxation for difficult and stressful combat conditions.Regards,

Hi Paul,
fighting mentality = not a sparring mentality. ie: not sitting 3 feet from each other waiting for the other guy to flinch too much or waiting to decide "ok, *now* I'm gonna make my move!".

If you see sparring as a "bridge to more realistic self defence", which is debatable, then you at least need to train a more realistic mentality. If "it's on", then close the gap and take care of business. No hesitation, it's not a game. That is the danger of the sparring mentality.

[S.Teebas]

If "it's on", then close the gap and take care of business.

Idealy...i agree. BUT Is it always that simple? Better to be prepared for closing that gap a few times.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Idealy...i agree. BUT Is it always that simple? Better to be prepared for closing that gap a few times.

I don't understand how that post relates to the discussion...?
I'm talking about the clips where the two gentlemen would run up to each other and stay frozen/antsy about 3 feet apart waiting for something. That shouldn't happen, IMO.

[PaulH]

Hi BP,

I see what you mean. I agree that the two are not the same. Much of our fighting ability however comes from long hours of practice. Sparring is a very good device to get there though its nature is debatable as you pointed out.

Regards,

[Matrix]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Idealy...i agree. BUT Is it always that simple? Better to be prepared for closing that gap a few times. Not a point of debate, I'm sure. The question is, how do you prepare? You may say, through sparring. I think BP is saying that sparring is not a requirement, and could even be a detriment. It's a question of intent. To close the gap, you close it and "take care of business". I know that sounds simplisitic, but it's largely a question of psychology at that stage. Trust your art and your skills.

Matrix

[S.Teebas]

burnsypoo


I don't understand how that post relates to the discussion...?

Think of it as a new thought to ponder :D


I'm talking about the clips where the two gentlemen would run up to each other and stay frozen/antsy about 3 feet apart waiting for something.

Yep i saw the clips, and know what part your talking about.


That shouldn't happen, IMO.

Freezing like that shouldn't, agreed. ...but will a situation like it never occur? WC guys are 'supposed' to stick, but the opponent wont always.
Say you've copped a hit and need to bridge the gap again. My point is thinking you'll bridge once everytime isnt a guarantee, so better to be prepared for that.

Matrix says:

I think BP is saying that sparring is not a requirement, and could even be a detriment.

Is that what your saying? Never spar??:confused:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
[b] Is that what your saying? Never spar??:confused: No, not at all. I'm just saying that you do not need to spar to get to where you want to go. Also, if sparring is done poorly it could lead to bad habits. The focus can become winning the "game" of sparring. Burnsy's description pretty well illustrates one of the problems.

I just object to people who say sparring is the only way, or you're not a "real" martial artist if you don't spar. That's just the dogma of those who want to build some sort of elitism. Sparring is just a tool, and as the saying goes, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems begin to look like nails".

Matrix

[PaulH]

Hi Matrix,

I think this problem of to do or not to do sparring when learning WC has been weighed carefully by many good WC people in the past. Allow me to share a few brief WSL comments on this training thread. I hope we all can improve our fighting ability more from his insights. And that is what really matters in the end.

Q: You were considered one of WC's best fighters, right?

A: That's what they say, but I really don't like to talk about it very much...If I tell stories about how I used to fight, it means that I can't fight anymore. If I can still fight today, I don't need to talk about my past. I don't see any point in proving to people how tough you are. Being a good fighter depends on how hard you practice and how much time you put into it. Fighting abilities are based on perseverance, confidence, and physical power - not talk.

Q: Did you ever consider competing in combat sports?

A: I have always liked boxing - I like everything about fighting - but my kind of fighting is not the sport version - it is real fighting where there are no rules, no restrictions, and your life is hanging in the balance...However, it is true that contact training and sparring can be a very revealing experience for the student...Perhaps Chinese martial arts should, taking into account the realistic social environment, formulate a set of competition regulations that would allow what I call the "trial of skills" to be brought into full play...One should be encouraged to test the skills as long the purpose is to study and learn from others. But it is a pity that many people have distorted the meaning of the trials of skills, and take it as a way to show their power - or even to bully people around!

[kj]

Good post, good quotes. Thanks, PaulH.
- kj

[Matrix]

Originally posted by PaulH
I think this problem of to do or not to do sparring when learning WC has been weighed carefully by many good WC people in the past. Allow me to share a few brief WSL comments on this training thread. I hope we all can improve our fighting ability more from his insights. And that is what really matters in the end. PaulH,
First of all, let me say how much I appreciate the manner in which you are discussing this topic. It is a respectful style that encourages the exchange of ideas and concepts in an open-minded and civil way. Thank you for that.



Being a good fighter depends on how hard you practice and how much time you put into it. Fighting abilities are based on perseverance, confidence, and physical power - not talk.No debate here.



Perhaps Chinese martial arts should, taking into account the realistic social environment, formulate a set of competition regulations that would allow what I call the "trial of skills" to be brought into full play...One should be encouraged to test the skills as long the purpose is to study and learn from others. But it is a pity that many people have distorted the meaning of the trials of skills, and take it as a way to show their power - or even to bully people around! I would like to know more about these "trials of skills". I suspect, and it is only my interpretation, that he is not talking about sparring, or else he would have just called it "sparring" rather than "trials of skills". Never the less, sparring, in and of itself is not bad. I have mentioned in previous posts that I have sparred, and even fought in knockout competitions in my time. So, my experience has taught me a few things in this regard. I just think that it can lead to poor execution, especially in less skilled practitioners. Winning the sparring match can become the end-game, not skill development. There is a proper time and place for all things.

As I said earlier, my main objection is not really to sparring, but rather to the "my way is the only way" approach that some proponents have been taking. Or, if you don't spar you're not a "real" martial artist. Reading the words of Sifu Wong Shun Leung you can see that he uses terms such as " Perhaps Chinese martial arts should......" and "One should be encouraged to test the skills ....". You can see how the words invite the reader to consider a point of view, rather than trying to force a concept down someone's throat. It is the way of a master, in my opinion, no doubt about it.

Best Regards,
Matrix

[PaulH]

Hi Matrix,

Your courteous reply is also much appreciated by me. I concurred with you that "There is a proper time and place for all things."
With respect to the "trial of skills" is "beimo" in Wong's words. For this fascinating topic, you can read "what I have learnt through Beimo" article written by WSL and is beautifully translated by David Peterson. Here is the link should you have not the pleasure of reading it yet:
http://www.wingchun.com/wslbeimo.htm

The article above also provides answers to BP's and UF's questions of our sparring video clips. May I end with its last paragraph which has been my favorite WC theme:

"The above points will not teach you how to win, but will enable you to decrease your mistakes as much as possible. In fact, if you want to win, it will depend on whether or not you practise hard and persistently, your will to win the fight, perseverance, the development of physical power, confidence, and so on. As for the supreme state of "calm heart and refined breathing" (ie. the ability to fight calmly and with total control of mind & body), attaining that will be on the basis of all the above conditions."

Best regards,

[Matrix]

PaulH,

Thank you for the link to the article, and the wonderful closing quote. This thread has reminded me that I need to re-read David Peterson's book "The Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung". I purchased it last year and read it, fully intending to run through it again, and possibly several more times. As life has a habit of getting in the way of these things, I have been negligent in my studies. I picked it up again last night, and have been finding a few other great insights. David also included some articles with my book order, which were greatly appreciated as well. So, if you don't have this book please consider ordering it. In my opinion, it's worth every dollar, and more.

Best Regards,
Matrix

[KenWingJitsu]

lol