Mpeg - two-man Russian martial art hand drill

[carly]

http://www.systemauk.com/video/boxing1.mpg

[yenhoi]

Neat.

[dezhen2001]

cool... but what gives with those weird white tops?:confused:

dawood

[carly]

are just the Russian equivalent of a kung fu uniform, no more or less silly than a Chinese one.

[dezhen2001]

didnt say it was silly, just thought they looked pretty funky :D

dawood

[red5angel]

Pretty cool kind of reminds me of the fillipino arts. I wonder if they all train so close together to emphasize a "group fight" scenario?

By the way, what style is that?

[dezhen2001]

its systema (russian martial art) from the look of it :)

dawood

[carly]

It's a Russian "folk style", part of what is taught in what is generally called the Systema, or the "Russian Martial Art".
The people I know who have visited and checked them out were very impressed by their skills.

[bob10]

I took the clips from a video called Spetsnaz that Vladimir Vasiliev used to sell. I guess the clothing in those clips are tradiitonal folk costumes - some of those demos were shot at festivals or similar occasions. They show some of the trad styles that modern Systema is based on. If you want to see some of the group fighting check out the Mass Attack video clip :)

I'll gradually get some more clips uploaded over the next couple of weeks.

Cheers

[carly]

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mass1ff.mpg

[carly]

bringing this back up for those who missed it yesterday.

[Mr.Binx]

First clip: breakdancing! :cool:
Second clip: MoSH PiT! :D

[Mojo]

Here is an interesting two man hand drill....

http://www.ascscientific.com/twoman.jpg

[bob10]

:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

I've heard some dubious things about Systema. AS I've never seen it to experience it, I make no judgement.

However I do know that Russian Sambo is kicka$s.

[Stranger]

Oleg Taktarov is an accomplished SAMBO practitioner and he has nothing but respect for Vlad's ability to fight. Consider also that some of Vlad's instructors hold instructor ranking in BJJ, MT, and compete in NHB. They all find value in Systema.

[bob10]

I think most of the controversy surrounding Systema has been over the "psychic" work. There has been a problem of misinterpretation (well meaning in some cases but deliberate in one or two) over what is basically psychological work.

The other problem is that Vlad and co make things look so easy sometimes that people can't belive it :)

Incidentally the latest UK instructor to convert to Systema is a former KGB Sombo champion.

[Kymus]

A friend of mine has an instructional video of Systema, and it does look pretty cool. All the blocks are kinda... wavey? It seemed like total retdirection of force, but more flowing than something like a lapsau. I dunno how effective it is or anything, but if all that crap works fast paced like that guy did in slow mo, that would be a real annoying thing to fight against!

[ToddMilhoan]

Bob,
Misinterpretation? Please explain the following.

http://www.swordforumbugei.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000016.html

http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1378

http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1142

KO'ing someone without touching them, and "shredding their energy" doesn't sound like a misinterpretation.. heck, read the whole psychic energy forum on Russianmartialart.org while you're at it.

[morbicid]

systema. hmm... i wonder is that the same russian military fighting style often referred to as "the system" ?

[carly]

I don't know (or care) about the psychic claims, but these guys are pretty realistic.

[bob10]

Well Vladimir and Mikhail do plenty of seminars around the world, best is probably to ask them direct.

[ToddMilhoan]

What's realistic about my rendering you unconcious without touching you, and throwing you without making contact?

[carly]

but I do know that they can grapple and strike you WITH contact rather well.

[bob10]

Like I said if you ask them direct you will get an answer. We can go backwards and forwards on a forum without getting anywhere.

[carly]

we LOVE going back and forth without getting anywhere:)

[bob10]

:D

I can understand the skepticism but people should first consider Mikahil's background and second - go see him or Vlad, they are very receptive to genuine questions.

[ToddMilhoan]

Bob,
I didn't say that Vlad doesn't answer questions. You said yourself that people misinterpret the meaning wrong. No, they don't. Read the forum on psychic energy there.. there is no way in hell someone is misinterpreting it. "Massaging psychological pressure points without touching them" sounds pretty clear to me. I never questioned them sparring, I'm questioning the psychic energy subject. They 100% believe that Vlad and Mikhial have the superhuman ability to hit you, throw you, and render you unconcious without any physical contact. I don't need to call Vlad or Mikhial, I don't need to visit them.. their claims are in text available on their site. What about Mikhials background? Being Russian endows one with psychic energy?

[bob10]

No, "being Russian does not endow one with psychic energy" and that's not at all what I suggested, as I'm sure you know. Mikhail's training began at the age of 5 in an environment that few of us can appreciate. Do some research on the training the Spetsnaz go through as a starter (try Suvorov). Given that sort of background you might expect seomone to have skills beyond the usual "martial arts master". In Mikhails case those skillls include a profound understanding of the human psychology and physiology. It's beyond my understanding and my small experiences of that aspect of his skills left me bewildered.
The people on the RMA forum are posting their personal experiences. I guess there are three options:
1. they are lying
2. they are deluded
3. it happened

Which anyone chooses to believe is up to them. My point about speaking to V or M is that you don't have to speculate - they will show you. If you don't need to feel it but know already without experience I guess your psychic powers are already up to par :)

[Shah]

I don't think that either has any "supernatural" skills. It's just that sometimes students become over-exhilirated at their teacher's skills and tend to exaggerate.

[Former castleva]

As far as I have read about this system and ppl,including interviews-no claims of supranormal talents. :)
But rather down to earth,reality based training.

[bob10]

That's right, neither Vlad nor Mikhail ever claim any sort of magic skill. In fact on the Beyond the Physical tape MR quite clearly describes and demonstrates how he does the no contact work.

FWIW over the years I've encountered many Chinese-style empty force experts, both from the UK and the US. Totally different kettle of fish IME.

[Shooter]

Hella cool...

Looks a lot like some of our hitting/corn-grinding drills..

[ToddMilhoan]

Former Castleva,

http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=5

read around on there. Specific claims of KO'ing people without touching them, and of destroying the energy field around someone and throwing them down, without touching them.

That's reality based to you?

[ToddMilhoan]

Sleight of hand? Claiming they can put people to sleep without touching them.. sorry, not "sleight of hand." Claiming to "Shred their energy field".. also not "sleight of hand"

Go to Golden? Naah, that's okay. I'm headed to Las Vegas this weekend for the Roy Jones Jr. fight.. Maybe I'll stop off at the Mirage and watch Sigfreid and Roy's act... I hear their show is much more impressive than Vlad's.

My dismissal isn't due to the placebo effect.. the success of it is due to the placebo effect. The ones that seem easiest to "attack" with the non-superhuman-psychic-energy-that-isn't-mind-control, also seem to be the ones that want to believe in it SO bad that they "create" it.

People fear too greatly the power they hold over their own minds, so they invest that power in others who harbor no reluctance at exploiting their trust and naiveté. (much like they harbor no reluctance and plagiarising others books, and claiming it as their own)

[carly]

Now you're trolling!
"Maybe I'll stop off at the Mirage and watch Sigfreid and Roy's act... I hear their show is much more impressive than Vlad's."

[Stranger]

....why do you keep feeding him?

[Shooter]

He isn't a troll. :rolleyes:

Just because someone takes issue with outright statements, they're a troll? It's called critical thinking. It's the main component of self-teaching and proper leaning. KFO could use a bit more of that.

[Knifefighter]

Seems to be a mixed bag. I watched several of the videos and found them to be anywhere from a joke to some really good stuff.


Knife stuff- Not realistic
Stick- I don’t think so
Staff- Nope
Evasion drills- Not impressed
Gun disarm- Hmm… I doubt it
Ground demos- Marginal
Hand to Hand- Marginal
Throws- Yeah, possibly
Mass Attack- Pretty realistic and impressive
Boxing demo- Very impressive

The strength of Systema looks to be in its standing striking methods. As far as no touch techniques, if you believe that please contact my investment website:

htttp://investmentscams.com/sendmeyourmoney

[carly]

their knife expertize, as your name suggests that you are interested in the topic.
I wouldn't judge them entirely by those clips, either.
From their website, some comments on their Knife Defense video.
Have you seen it? If so, any comments?
Also I wondered if you knew what is this was association like? Is it authorative on its subject?
"Ranked by the European Knife Fighting Association as BEST FILM OF THE YEAR! You will be provided with complete instruction on defense against all forms of knife attacks --- while unarmed yourself! Over 40 incredible tactics shown at full speed and in step-by-step format with full explanation as to why they are so effective despite being so simple. Includes rare documentary footage of actual full contact combat situations of the Russian Special Forces.
1 hour 5 min. $49.95

[ToddMilhoan]

Having an opinion that disagrees with you makes me a troll? Then I guess automatically agreeing makes you a lemming, correct?

No, I'm not a troll. Trolls, much like people who can render others unconcious without touch or chemical agents, are fictional.. the main difference being that trolls live under bridges.

Why does he call it psychic energy, if there's no supernatural force involved?

When I go to wrestling practice, and I get someone in good position due to footwork, movement, position, and it makes it easier for me to take them down, It's due to my skill at setups. I don't talk about shredding someones energy field, or any other terms that could in any way, shape, or form be confused as using some superhuman power. It's getting an opponent's attention in one spot, while I attack elsewhere..

Knocking someone out without touching them by "massaging psychological pressure points in the air" ISNT the same thing.

[carly]

You will notive that no magic techniques are mentioned:
http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=874

[ToddMilhoan]

When did I ask about knife fighting? (answer: I didn't)

The issue is about the psychic energy claims. KO'ing someone without ever touching them, yet somehow that not being a "superhuman energy"

[carly]

I don't see anything wrong with debunking the psychic stuff, but I do think that there are more deserving objects of ridicule in the martial arts for this sort of thing than systema.

[Stranger]

He's trolling because his first posts ever on this forum are to flame up this thread, his profile is blank (what martial art is shaping Todd's perspective?). Nobody posting here even begins to claims to fully understand the portion of Mikhail and Vlad's curriculum that would fall into the category of"psychic" energy work. Todd was referred to two recognized authorities, and he lives in Colorado and yet won't take the time or effort to see for himself (both Vlad and Mikhail are in CO annually and they don't duck questions). Now he jumped into the thread because he saw something online he didn't believe/agree/understand, and yet he wants to find his answers online from a stranger in this thread (?????). It is a no-win scenario for supporters of Mikhail and Vlad, as nothing written here will convince Todd of anything, and Todd won't investigate personally (an impasse). Life is too short to get into a debate like that.
We could have all just moved along, but Todd didn't come for answers; he came to argue, thus the snide comments about needing to be Russian to be superhuman or comparing Mikhail and Vlad to Siegfried and Roy.

[bob10]

Like I said before, there's an easy answer if people are really interested - go and see. Ask for any of it to be demo'd. Simple really.

As for people being naive I guess we'd have to include some high level people in that who train with these guys. I guess they have the Russian government fooled as well.

[ToddMilhoan]

Stranger,
My point is that someone said to look at Ryabko's background.. that's why he's capable of being able to KO people without touching them, as if his background and heritage allow him to do this. I wasn't comparing Seigfried and Roy to Mikhial and Vladimir. Seigfried and Roy don't try to convince you that they can teach you to defend yourself from an attacking tiger by making it dissapear with a magic wand.

My background? hrmm, where to start.. When I was little, I learned little bits and pieces from an old carnival wrestler, so that I could put the hurt on my older cousin when he picked on me. I've wrestled folkstyle, freestyle, and greco-roman, I'm a black belt in Judo under Christophe Leininger, I've won the Espoir and Junior world championships in Sambo multiple times as well as winning the World Student Games, and have placed as high as 4th in the Senior world championships. While traveling abroad, I've been able to train for a short while in Georgian Chidaoba, Mongolian Boke, and I've wrestled in the Turkish Kirkpinar festival. I've trained in Russian Martial Art while in Russia, I've been able to learn boxing from some members of the US team, trained a little muay thai and Savate as well.

[ToddMilhoan]

I'm a video expert?

[carly]

I'd like to hear about your experiences training Mongolian Boke, if you would be so generous as to share.

[bob10]

No, I said MR has the skill level he has because of the training he has been through.

That's nice that you did some Sambo. Valeri Riazanov did some Sambo too, in fact he was KGB champion, plus a few other titles I believe.

Guess who he trains with now - after "going to see". No doubt he's another dupe.

The trick with the wand sounds neat. Do they really teach that in Systema or is that another of your projections?

Like I said at the start - backwards and forwards, getting nowhere.

[ToddMilhoan]

Mongolia was a blast. Wrestlers there are treated like Rock Stars in the USA. Kids wanted our autographs, parents handed us their babies and took pictures of us with their kids, etc.

Mongolia, in every sport I've competed against them in.. are EXTREMELY fierce and mean. The lack of weight classes doesn't help us 68 kilo guys either. you can grab the vest and use it to throw, like Judo, but you cannot grab his legs with your hands, sort of like greco-roman wrestling, yet for some reason you're allowed to trip or sweep. In Greco we're used to getting leg foul penalties.. they've got one too, it's called losing. about 2 matches in, they decided to explain that to us. Other bit was that losing is like Sumo.. if you touch anything other than your feet to the ground, you lose.

It's kind of like the Kirpinar festival in a way.. in respect that everybody goes, and then everyone that won their matches finds a new opponent, and you go at it again, until there is only one left.

[carly]

You took Sambo, and some Russian art/systema too?
Did you see evidence of Sambo in the Russian martial art which you studied or saw?

[Stranger]

OK, now I have a reference point and some questions:

With your apparent respect for SAMBO, how do you explain the affiliation of several high ranking Russian SAMBO practioners with Vlad and/or Mikhail? There are also some BJJ instructors that train within Vlad's organization (studying standing and grappling, unarmed and armed fighting). Duped as well?

What organization did you train with in Russia that exposed you to "Russian Martial Arts"?

Re: the knife defense

People suggest that it wouldn't hold up under full speed and with targets being marked by ink, but there is footage of Spetsnaz training full-speed, unrehearsed with live blades. The techniques hold up. Many of Vlad's students enthusiastically study his knife techniques despite their backgrounds in SE Asian knifefighting arts (more dupes, eh?).

[ToddMilhoan]

when you say "another video expert" at knifefighter, one could read that as you stating that I was the first one.


while it's interesting to see who goes to learn from him.. I find it interesting to see who keeps leaving him as well.

Russian Government is fooled? Or perhaps you're fooled into thinking he's got the Russian Government fooled. Guess what.. there's no official gov't hand to hand style. I'm sure you're also a believer in half of the nutty war stories.. such as having to track down murderers on foot. Three large dangerous men who have been known to kill. Have ANY of you traveled to Russia? You've got kids in the military who don't even shave yet, walking around with assault rifles, and will shoot first, ask questions later. Yet apaprently Vlad carried no such item, or surely when the men went to attack him, he would have fired. While simultaneously fighting all 3 killers larger than himself, he keeps shedding clothing, and his opponents manage to knock each other out with redirected strikes. Those that believe this most likely also believe that the U.S. Military had units of highly trained Ninjas back in the 80's.

If the Russian government had an art that they teach the Spetsnaz, that allows them to to render people unconcious without touching them... where were they during the Moscow theater hostage situation? Why bother gassing the place?

Stranger,
I'm not bashing the hand to hand instruction, I'm not bashing the knife instruction.. My issue is claiming to teach a realistic combat system, and claiming to KO people without contact.

[carly]

Come on! Back to talking about Sambo!

[bob10]

Who keeps leaving?

Who is an assistant to the Russian minister of justice?

Have any of us been to Russia? You mean apart from the ones that served in the Russian military? Or those whose family members were Russian military? Or those who have trained in Moscow? Or spoken to the people who train at Vladimirs school, from spec ops, law enforcement, security work?

You think we have not done any research?

etc etc

[ToddMilhoan]

Of course you'll find Sambo influences. After the 1917 revolution, and the Soviets came to power, nothing was georgian, armenian, etc.. everything became Soviet.. rather than practicing chidaoba in georgia.. you trained in Sambo (however, if you play with only the lapels, belt, and epaulettes of a kurtka, it's VERY much like playing with a chidaoba vest.. and if you only work throws to the back.. you can train "Sambo" yet preserve Chidaoba)

Oschepkov was imprisoned and killed for fratenizing with foreign enemies (for claiming that HIS style of sambo had some influence from Judo) So Kharlampiev protected his own tail from that point on. A lot of knowledge on regional styles is lost forever unfortunately.. Martial arts were technically illegal to practice.. but Sambo was a sport important for the development of youth, as are other olympic sports such as boxing, wrestling, judo, Tae Kwon Do, so it was legal.. So most people that had a martial arts background, had experience with sambo in some form or another.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by carly
I wouldn't judge them entirely by those clips, either.
From their website, some comments on their Knife Defense video.
Have you seen it? If so, any comments?

Carly:
My comments were just my opinions based on the video clips from their site. You are right, a few video samples do not show an entire system. However, video samples can be a pretty good indication of whether or not someone really knows what happens when the fertilizer hit the fan. I believe thier mass attack and boxing clips show a good, realistic understanding of real empty-handed fighting. While I have not seen the Knife Defense video, I do not feel thier knife clips showed a realistic understanding of how to defend against a blade.

While I don't go for the "supernatural hocus pocus", if there is any in their style, I would definitely be up for checking out a seminar if anyone could point one out in the So. Cal area.

[carly]

at the aiko 2003 expo in Las Vegas, and I suspect that they will be visiting California around the same time - there's some aikido guy named Williams who really likes their stuff with a dojo out there.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Stranger
There are also some BJJ instructors that train within Vlad's organization (studying standing and grappling, unarmed and armed fighting). Duped as well?

People suggest that it wouldn't hold up under full speed and with targets being marked by ink, but there is footage of Spetsnaz training full-speed, unrehearsed with live blades. The techniques hold up. Many of Vlad's students enthusiastically study his knife techniques despite their backgrounds in SE Asian knifefighting arts (more dupes, eh?).

Stranger:
Can you name some names? I know a lot of the BJJ instructors around and would be interested to get their comments.

As far as the video footage, I'd be interested in seeing that. Where is it?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by carly
at the aiko 2003 expo in Las Vegas, and I suspect that they will be visiting California around the same time - there's some aikido guy named Williams who really likes their stuff with a dojo out there.

How would I get more info about this?

[carly]

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/expo/

[Midnight Oil]

Speaking as a student of Vladimir Vasiliev's I can honestly say that Vlad has to be experienced to be believed.

I know this sounds like a cop-out, but nothing that anyone can say on this forum can do this man any sort of justice.

By all means be sceptical, critical and ask probing questions, but I urge anyone with the means to do so to check out a seminar/local class and judge for yourself.

I heartily encourage anyone with thoughtful questions about Systema to check out the forum on www.russianmartialart.com. There are lots of knowledgable folks there.

[bob10]

Knifefighter - with regards to the Spetsnaz footage - I have a video with some of that footage on and had some clips from it on my site.

Unfortunately there are copyright issues over it and I had to remove the clips. So they can only be seen privately.

I've seen other footage from a taped called "Spetsnax, Elite Fighting Focrce" which is widely availalabe I think. It's a docu on the Spets, though most of the training stuff shows hand to hand training, can't recall any knife.

And good for you in saying you'll check the stuff out when you get a chance - please let us know what you think when you do.

As for the other guy - seems to me he's just cut and pasting from websites now. Looks more and more like troll material.

[Stranger]

Knifefighter,

Alex Wilkie is(was?) a Rickson rep and is currently a rep of Vlad. Alex's school puts out a few MMA fighters that I've seen on TV, yet his school regularly hosts Vlad, and his fighters attend. Alex might be a good source of information on other BJJ practitioners that train wih Vlad. His students respect Vlad standing and grappling, armed and unarmed.


I believe there is also a Machado rep (possibly based in Ontario or Michigan) that trains regularly with Vlad.

You will find many different styles (both traditional and modern) represented in the training backgrounds of Vlad's students. You will also find students who have "been there and done that" in the realm of military and/or sport combat.


For seminars in SoCal, contact James Williams from San Diego, his info is on Vlad's homepage.