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Former castleva
02-18-2003, 09:50 AM
I´ve been meditating a lot on medicine :) and now that there are some thoughts bugging me,I think I might as well release them here.
What do you think is the future of tcm?
Now if we assume that tcm (etc. related) methods having gained some interest in western countries,not to forget understandable concern from practitioners of conventional medicine,will be placed under some serious light of research..-what would become out of it?
1. Now I believe alternative therapies and folk medicine will maintain it´s supporters even if there would be no further verification for it´s functionality from bigger circles.
2 . If the art will be studied on and noticed to hold heavy amounts of water from a scientifical viewpoint,what would this cause?
After scientifically valid evidence,would the need to explain it with ancient explanations be eliminated?
Now I might believe that some would stand against that,but in my humble opinion it could be very healthy for it.
:cool:

BTW,this is not a rant but pure food for thought to be chewed well.
Please feel free to join.

TkdWarrior
02-18-2003, 07:32 PM
well it's one of alternative medicines in west(hell even in india too because not much ayurvedic doc left)
it's a complete medical science in india, mostly known for sushrutra or charaka(the main ayurvedic doctors lived 1000 or some yrs back) they hav written books on ayurvedic medicne which even deals with surgory(sp), it's as advance as u can get in allopathy(sp)
in india u can find cure for some chronic diseases which u WON"T find in main stream medical

just for example i m giving u link for asthma cure(which cannot be cured in allopathy at least i havn't heard of it but here in india it's been done from yrs back)
the link is giving only the complete story about the doc n it's thearpy...

http://www.lifepositive.com/body/traditional-therapies/fish-therapy/fish-therapy.html

-TkdWarrior-

Laughing Cow
02-18-2003, 07:43 PM
I think that alternate and tradiional medicine will always be around.

From what I can gather it appears that the "old world"(Europe & Asia) is more open towards this type of treatment.

Repulsive Monkey
02-19-2003, 03:29 AM
Laughing Cow is correct, TCM for exmaple will never die because if it were all merely the work of charalatans or a feverish mind of an old archaic idea long gone then it would of died off centuries ago. The fact remains that genuine systems of medicine like TCM, Ayurvedic, Reiki etc will always remain regardless of what modern science says in its favour or against it.

Modern western medicine/science is NOT the bench mark for all others!!.

Former castleva
02-19-2003, 05:18 AM
Thank you everyone.

BTW,what do you think about my question?

An example could be drawn to the link TKDwarrior posted.
Talking about fish medicine,if we consider fish medicine effective treatment for asthma,we could benefit from studying it´s chemical build-up in detail (careful research)
Once this kind of complete study is done and carefully tested and observed,we can point out directions outside of anecdotal information.Have had asthma myself,which disappeared (sometimes it can be psychosomatic though)
I encourage healthy skeptism,it is the people´s lives that are on stake so it certainly won´t hurt.
If seen by those in charge to be appropriate,more research could be done on alternative medicine in case,objective approach is good.
And when it comes to practitioners of alternative medicine-
It makes me shake my head to hear of elitistic attitude from this side.This is NOT a generalisation for honorable practitioners but to tell "how to" from such position is like a kitten shouting at a tiger´s face.

kungfu cowboy
03-08-2003, 07:46 PM
Eventually replaced by nanomachines and gene therapy. Then ticklepants.

Former castleva
03-09-2003, 04:52 AM
Well thanks.

Former castleva
03-09-2003, 11:04 AM
Thanks guohuen.

Sidenote:I´ve had my take on legitimacy of medicine- already,please keep it clean and keep up discussing if you wish.

cha kuen
03-18-2003, 11:45 PM
Former Castle,

I'm guessing you're coming from the background of western medicine by reading your posts.

A few weeks ago I read an article in the December 2002 issue of TIME magazine. They did many articles on herbs and chinese medicine. I felt it was a pretty neutral point of view but they stated that MD's are starting to see that things like accupunture are very effective.

Insurance programs are also starting to accept accupunture as well.

In my opinion, TCM is doing very well in the States with over 10,000 practitioners in CA and it is only spreading more everyday.

Vapour
03-19-2003, 05:20 PM
Firstly, the methodology of TCM, with it's empasis on Qi and merediant points and so on will not be accepted unless someone come up with method to scientifically detect Qi.

However, West could accept TCM without embracing the metaphysics of TCM, that is it's cure. For example, in Japan, you can obtain prescription for TCM medicine from your G.P.

In the West, Ministry of Health require you to identify the exact chemical compound of medicine for approval in medical use. TCM medicine on the other hand are made from combination of natural herb and other stuff. So it canno get approval from Minstry of Health (Food and Drug Admin if you are from U.S.). Another problem is that because this cure is around for thousands of years, no one can patent this, so no drug company are willing to pay for the clinical trial which could cost $million.

In Orient, Government paid for conducting clinical test for well established TCM method and majority has been approved. Also, this has eliminated any chance of bogus TCM from ruining reputation of TCM.

IMO, the future of TCM is main stream acceptance of cure if not its methodology.

HuangKaiVun
03-20-2003, 12:33 PM
Meridian and qi theory are ALREADY accepted by Western medical science.

When I was in medical school, there were internships and residencies being offered in those disciplines. It's now possible to become board certified as a Western physician of traditional Chinese medicine.

Similarly, naturopathic training now utilizes the same Western medical foundation that standard MDs use. I have a kung fu student who took a test on autoimmune diseases at his naturopathic school today. His textbook? Robbins - the exact same one I used as a 2nd year medical student in Western medical school.

Veterinary medicine, which is a launchpad for much of what is done in the Western medical world, has fully embraced meridian and qi therapy. Here in Phoenix, I hear all the time about horses that didn't do well with Western methods but suddenly reverse their fortunes after meridian therapy and reiki and such.

For the record, top pharmaceutical companies around the world regularly research nonWestern modes of treatment. They deeply respect whatever method that WORKS, regardless of origin.

Eventually we're not really going to have a true distinction between "Eastern" and "Western". Having been on both sides of the fence has shown me that the days of "elitist attitude" from either side are soon to be no more.

It's just going to be "medicine".

Vapour
03-21-2003, 05:49 AM
With all respect, I find it hard to believe that Qi theory is accepted by Western Science. My guess is that they have discovered that meredian point has concentration of nerve. But that does not means that qi theory, "defined by TCM", has been accepted.

As far as I know, TCM interpret qi as a energy. In western science, energy has to be such thing as electricity or gravity which scientifically verifiable and measureable entity. So far, I'm not aware of any scientific article which claim to have managed to do just that to qi.

That was the reason making distinction between cure and explanation in my first comment.

Former castleva
03-26-2003, 04:47 AM
Meridian and qi theory are ALREADY accepted by Western medical science. ""
Careful...

Thanks for all the replies.

HuangKaiVun
04-01-2003, 11:48 AM
No, YOU be careful.

Accupuncture has already been accepted. That's meridian theory right there.

You don't understand what qi is really all about, former castleva. It's not merely a measurable energy or some way of doing Jedi levitation tricks.

The REAL concept of qi is far more expansive than the extremely limited view you have of it. Western doctors have already begun to catch onto its concept via the use of macrobiotics and selective nutrition (vitamin) therapy.

You need more education in both Western AND Eastern medical science, former castleva. Go to school.

Vapour
04-01-2003, 02:54 PM
Alchemy had theory based on idea that all matter is comprised of Wind, Fire, Water and Earth. Thought its theory were proven to be completely false after the founding of modern chemistry, they did manage to produce number of valid chemical reaction in lab condition. Only problem was that the explanation which it has provided was false but not its experiment. Therefore, the fact that alchemist can reproduce certain chemical reaction is no evidence of validity of its theory.

Former castleva
04-01-2003, 03:06 PM
At first,once mud starts flying it may be over.I already thought about deleting this thread but will not so far because there has been some reasonable discussion.

"No, YOU be careful."
I´m trying to.
With all the respect possible,I have some difficulty taking all this seriously.


"You don't understand what qi is really all about, former castleva. It's not merely a measurable energy or some way of doing Jedi levitation tricks."
You may be right,maybe I do not...
Or maybe I do,depends.
(Notice the dead horse) Qiisy.

"You need more education in both Western AND Eastern medical science, former castleva. Go to school."
Have seriously considered that,when it comes to western/universal med. but we´ll see.
You can never have too much education.


"Meridian and qi theory are ALREADY accepted by Western medical science."
"Accupuncture has already been accepted. That's meridian theory right there." -And anatomical basis for nervous system has been tracked down in tcm?
Here we go.
When it comes to being acupuncture being accepted,yes,they have gained somewhat legal recognition for use in various countries.
It is another issue when it comes to something completely different,in this case pseudoscience to be accepted in science,medical that is (I dislike the term "western science" since it is BS.Science is an universal method that sure crosses the borders of region)
So tcm (as various other therapies) have been brought to western society just like we´re working to get conventional treatment to Africa as an example.This does not mean they suddenly become part of the method itself,that is way too odd (also,one can go find some people who would support this idea or something but that is far too far from universal agreement.Such a brave statement should be backed up with brave,objective evidence.Such a thing would be somewhat equal in it´s category to evolution theory accepting creationist theory for some boost and if things were like this,the whole world would go "Oooooh".Since this is against laws of scientifical medicine,I would know of this right?)
Courses and training in alt./compl. therapies are also being offered for justified physicians in America at least (There is no such trend in my country as an example) since some ppl are interested in this kind of treatment.
Still,conventional medicine remains...well conventional.
I notice some interest for practitioners of alt. med. to combine their methods into conventional medicine.If I think about my own country,I can notice that there is no need to "add" anything to treatment itself (provided there will be) but what causes issues is the shortage of resources and such difficulties.

HuangKaiVun
04-08-2003, 11:08 AM
You have taken this discussion from uneducated to STUPID, former castleva.

As an educated Western medical person, I'm OUT.

Former castleva
04-08-2003, 12:27 PM
You did not back up your strong claims with real evidence but instead of that do rely on emotional foul language.
Best of luck.

cha kuen
04-13-2003, 09:15 AM
Former,

I have been thinking about studying TCM for almost a year now. I looked at a few schools and their programs (4 years Acupunture) and thought about going to schools in China. Thinking about something that I know very little about is very limited. I suddenly got the bright idea (sarcasm) this morning to take a few classes.

Seeing that there are many programs out there, I found one for TUINA Certificate which takes 2 semesters and $1,200. I may just do that so I can get some idea of what the heck I have been thinking about for so long.

I'm suggesting that you do the same, take a few classes instead of posting, reading, "researching" because - like you and I- we both know nothing about chinese medicine and have been meditating on it for a long time.

I remember in an earlier post you said that western med has been around longer than 200 years? Websites say it has been around for some 150 years. How long has w. medicine been around?

guohuen
04-13-2003, 09:40 AM
Actually they have gone full circle. Science has made gold using alchemy. Could people have done this in the past? Doughtfull but slightly possible one or two people may have.

Former castleva
04-13-2003, 10:07 AM
"I remember in an earlier post you said that western med has been around longer than 200 years? Websites say it has been around for some 150 years. How long has w. medicine been around?"
I do not remember what I have stated,if I really have but I think it is certainly older than 200 years.
It is hard to point out when it has actually started,actually we could trace it back to Greek medicine,as "premodern form" for which there is no use for these days.

"I'm suggesting that you do the same, take a few classes instead of posting, reading, "researching" because - like you and I- we both know nothing about chinese medicine and have been meditating on it for a long time. "
I am not interested in it too much these days.
My interest is mostly geared towards other sciences,some of which are related,scientifical medicine belonging to slightly smaller interests.
I do not believe my life will be long enough to spend time with such.

However,if you do have the acces and interest,then I shall wish you the best of luck.

:)

GeneChing
01-15-2016, 11:02 AM
I should get extra points for ttt-ing a 13-year-old thread. Not that I need extra points. As the admin, I gotz control of all the points. ;)


Traditional Chinese medicine hospitals growing (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.aspx?id=316432)
Jan 14,2016

BEIJING, Jan. 14 (Xinhua) -- The number of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) hospitals in China has increased by 500 in five years, a rise of 15.5 percent, a TCM official said on Thursday.

Meanwhile, the number of TCM outpatient departments and clinics increased by 531 and 5,890, said Wang Guoqiang, director of the State Administration of TCM at the 2016 national TCM meeting.

In 2014, there were 530 million visits to TCM hospitals, accounting for 17.9 percent of total hospital visits across the country, Wang said.

In addition, the TCM industry became a 730 billion yuan (110.8 million U.S. dollars) industry in 2014, representing one third of the total industrial output of China's medical industry.

The import and export revenues for the TCM industry amounted to 4.63 billion U.S. dollars in 2014, according to Wang.

China has been promoting the modernization of TCM and has been pushing for TCM to be accepted and popular worldwide. Tu Youyou's winning the Nobel Prize with a TCM-based anti-malarial drug served as a boon to the industry.

herb ox
01-15-2016, 04:32 PM
I should get extra points for ttt-ing a 13-year-old thread. Not that I need extra points. As the admin, I gotz control of all the points.

Either way, Gene... nicely done. Thanks for the lesson in Web-Fu :p

Mor Sao
01-16-2016, 08:45 AM
Great to hear that more people are using Chinese Medicine for it to grow and prosper.

Might be all the side effects as well as for profit over cure motives that most drug companies have for humans.

Gene is the Grand Pubah of Nacho Cheeze and the Interwebzes.

mawali
01-17-2016, 07:35 PM
You did not back up your strong claims with real evidence but instead of that do rely on emotional foul language.
Best of luck.

crap got real so you have to examine yourself and make your own decisions based on fact.

SoCo KungFu
01-18-2016, 12:57 PM
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4726/chinese-medicine-should-not-be-available-on-the-nhs


Like most papers on alternative medicine, papers with indecisive results always end with the mantra “more research is needed”. If 3,000 trials have not produced any convincing evidence of effectiveness, I see no point in doing more.

herb ox
01-18-2016, 02:19 PM
The future is now. Chinese medicine has not only survived for the last 4000 years but will continue to survive into the future as there are many of us carrying it forth in our hearts and hands, preserving ancient tradition, and preserving the true nature of humankind.

peace

herb ox

MarathonTmatt
01-19-2016, 11:40 PM
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4726/chinese-medicine-should-not-be-available-on-the-nhs

This article is a load of BS. As far as herbs go, they are a great way to naturally heal certain ailments/ inflamations, etc. There are a lot of paralells between TCM & other world "folk" medicine traditions. I would urge anyone interested in the local herbs of N. America to get a copy of the book "Indian Herbalogy of North America." It showcases over 200 wild herbs of North America, their features with sketches of each plant and a recommended dose for the symptoms the herb/ plant/ mushroom can help to heal/ alleviate. These were all plants that were known to Native people, like the American ginseng plant.

It is absurd to think that the knowledge our ancestors possessed, in some cases still being practiced today (Chinese herbal medicine as the perfect example) is bunk. These plants work, in some cases are very powerful and have the ability to heal. I do not always rely on herbs, but ideally I would and have used herbs before in the past and at least a bit everyday (raw organic apple cider vinegar, ghost pepper salt, thai chili peppers, etc). For instance, steeped/ boiled skunk cabbage root can help to off-set/ reverse the symptoms and ailments of diabetes if consumed everyday for several months, as long as the person takes care of themselves in other ways, i.e. by not eating junk . What's more is that skunk cabbage grow in wild abundance in the swamps and marshes of Northeast America and are easy to identify. I suspect that the pharmaceutical drug pushers do not want this information out, otherwise the masses of people would wake up to realize that they have the ability to self-heal if they put in the effort on themselves.

Furthermore it is even more absurd to study the affects of acupuncture from a western medical perspective. This medical perspective largely does not understand the human body in the same terms that traditional cultures understand the human body, therefore the two perspectives are diametrically opposed. For instance the main 12 yin and 12 yang meridians is not understood by westerners, as well as the five elemental energies, etc. This does not mean that acupuncture and herbs are a "placebo" affect... what a load of rubbish. The human potential and the way our bodies operate are far more complex than most of these people can ever imagine.

Most people do not know what to do or the means to do it when experiencing pain in their shoulder for instance. May be they cut meat for a living and the repetitive motion day in/ out of cutting has worn out the rotor cuff of their shoulder blade. Instead of addressing the issue when it first appears they figure they will "tough it out" until it is too late and years later they get surgery to cut a piece of their tissue out. Their mobility in their shoulder only allows them to move their arm in a certain way, for instance they can no longer lift their arm up... but hey the pain is gone and will not spread or cause a cancer (which is good but is a "devil's deal"). This is the wrong approach to the problem but this is the western medical approach. Instead this person should have gone to a massage therapist instead of buying lottery tickets or some such, and should have learned some qi-gong exercises to off-set and reverse the symptoms of his hurt shoulder blade. Unfortuneatly most people will not do this.

SoCo KungFu
01-21-2016, 09:36 AM
This article is a load of BS. As far as herbs go, they are a great way to naturally heal certain ailments/ inflamations, etc. There are a lot of paralells between TCM & other world "folk" medicine traditions. I would urge anyone interested in the local herbs of N. America to get a copy of the book "Indian Herbalogy of North America." It showcases over 200 wild herbs of North America, their features with sketches of each plant and a recommended dose for the symptoms the herb/ plant/ mushroom can help to heal/ alleviate. These were all plants that were known to Native people, like the American ginseng plant.

It is absurd to think that the knowledge our ancestors possessed, in some cases still being practiced today (Chinese herbal medicine as the perfect example) is bunk. These plants work, in some cases are very powerful and have the ability to heal. I do not always rely on herbs, but ideally I would and have used herbs before in the past and at least a bit everyday (raw organic apple cider vinegar, ghost pepper salt, thai chili peppers, etc). For instance, steeped/ boiled skunk cabbage root can help to off-set/ reverse the symptoms and ailments of diabetes if consumed everyday for several months, as long as the person takes care of themselves in other ways, i.e. by not eating junk . What's more is that skunk cabbage grow in wild abundance in the swamps and marshes of Northeast America and are easy to identify. I suspect that the pharmaceutical drug pushers do not want this information out, otherwise the masses of people would wake up to realize that they have the ability to self-heal if they put in the effort on themselves.

Furthermore it is even more absurd to study the affects of acupuncture from a western medical perspective. This medical perspective largely does not understand the human body in the same terms that traditional cultures understand the human body, therefore the two perspectives are diametrically opposed. For instance the main 12 yin and 12 yang meridians is not understood by westerners, as well as the five elemental energies, etc. This does not mean that acupuncture and herbs are a "placebo" affect... what a load of rubbish. The human potential and the way our bodies operate are far more complex than most of these people can ever imagine.

Most people do not know what to do or the means to do it when experiencing pain in their shoulder for instance. May be they cut meat for a living and the repetitive motion day in/ out of cutting has worn out the rotor cuff of their shoulder blade. Instead of addressing the issue when it first appears they figure they will "tough it out" until it is too late and years later they get surgery to cut a piece of their tissue out. Their mobility in their shoulder only allows them to move their arm in a certain way, for instance they can no longer lift their arm up... but hey the pain is gone and will not spread or cause a cancer (which is good but is a "devil's deal"). This is the wrong approach to the problem but this is the western medical approach. Instead this person should have gone to a massage therapist instead of buying lottery tickets or some such, and should have learned some qi-gong exercises to off-set and reverse the symptoms of his hurt shoulder blade. Unfortuneatly most people will not do this.

1) No, the article was spot on. I don't expect those with overly emotional attachments to things they cannot prove to reason without bias, however. Especially the ones that think there are immortals walking amongst us...

2) your knowledge base on this matter is very wanting. I'm going to give you a bit of a hint though because the direction is not the way you think. The majority of accepted "mainstream" medications (i.e. those "evil" pharmaceuticals) are natural compounds. So lets play a logic game. Most meds are natural. Does that mean most natural compounds are therapeutic?

3) Get over this naturalist fallacy you seem to always fall into. Its rotting your ability to critically analyze.

4)
steeped/ boiled skunk cabbage root can help to off-set/ reverse the symptoms and ailments of diabetes if consumed everyday for several months, as long as the person takes care of themselves in other ways, i.e. by not eating junk

Seems to me the issue is settled by not eating junk. Here's the problem with your claim. Native Americans knew nothing of the condition of diabetes. Hell, NO ONE knew about diabetes until very late 19th century. Also, while skunk cabbage may have some effect on a couple symptoms because it may have diuretic properties, diuretics actually have evidence implicating them in the development of the condition (specifically type 2). So is it curing, or causing? So much for having no side effects...See this is interesting because when researchers began tracking diabetes prevalence in the US, they found that Native Americans have the highest rates of non-insulin dependent diabetes.....things that make you go hmmmmmmmm......

5)
I suspect that the pharmaceutical drug pushers do not want this information out, otherwise the masses of people would wake up to realize that they have the ability to self-heal if they put in the effort on themselves.

See again point #2. Also learn what constitutes therapeutic dosage. Also, grow up. There are literally hundreds of thousands of researchers across the US with absolutely nothing to do with your arch nemesis, "Big Pharm." I'll tell you the same as herb ox, quit your b!tching and learn to do your own **** research. Proper research.

6)
This medical perspective largely does not understand the human body in the same terms that traditional cultures understand the human body
You're right, the former actually has an understanding of human physiology, the latter didn't even know what a cell was...


therefore the two perspectives are diametrically opposed. This generally happens when one conceptual model is correct and another is not. This is another tangential but interesting point, go learn more about how we humans process information.

7)
For instance the main 12 yin and 12 yang meridians is not understood by westerners, as well as the five elemental energies, etc. This does not mean that acupuncture and herbs are a "placebo" affect... what a load of rubbish.

Non-sequitur. Also, you don't seem to actually even understand what placebo is, rubbish indeed.

8)
The human potential and the way our bodies operate are far more complex than most of these people can ever imagine
Ad hominem, argument from ignorance and also, you seriously don't know wtf you are talking about. Sorry, but your criticism of what those who have spent their lives studying human biology know, or don't know, is about as valuable as sh!t it a grocery bag. What you know of the human physiology wouldn't fill the palm of my hand, and I'm not even an expert. You need to check your ego and realize how insignificant your knowledge base actually is.

9) Your last paragraph is non directed rambling, not even relevant to your own topic, let alone this greater thread. Did you not get this critique in grade school composition class?


The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Sorry to be blunt (not really), but this Asimov quote pretty much sums up about 90% of you here.

GeneChing
01-25-2016, 10:43 AM
TCM is backed by the PRC.


China to open 20 overseas TCM centres (http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/content/china-open-20-overseas-tcm-centres)

http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/original_images/Jan2016/TCMcentre_asianewsphoto.jpg
Asia News Photo
Monday, Jan 25, 2016
China Daily/Asia News Network

China plans to open about 20 Traditional Chinese Medicine collaboration centres overseas this year, according to a senior TCM official.

The aim is to open the centres in countries and regions covered by China's Belt and Road Initiative to enable the medical science to benefit more people, the official said.

Wang Xiaopin, director of the International Cooperation Department at the State Administration of Traditional Chinese Medicine, made the remarks in an interview with China Daily.

To date, TCM has been promoted in more than 180 countries and regions and the Chinese government has signed high-level co-operation memorandums with 83 countries, Wang said.

A great number of these countries fall under the Belt and Road Initiative, a vision President Xi Jinping put forward in 2013 to boost interconnectivity and common development along the ancient land and maritime Silk Roads.

"The centres will better meet local demand for TCM services and products among the public and also help with to promote TCM abroad," she said.

To finance the initiative, the central government launched a special fund last year with primary investment of 20 million yuan (S$4.4 million).

Wang stressed that the fund is not a charity programme.

She said the centres will be based on the various needs for TCM in different countries and will require local partners.

These partners could include hospitals, research institutions and the overseas pharmaceutical industry. "It all depends on the demands and various practical situations in these countries, including the legal status of TCM," she said.

About 300,000 Chinese TCM practitioners are working worldwide, according to the administration. The international market for TCM products and services is valued at $50 billion.

More than 10,000 foreigners arrive in China each year to learn TCM. Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong province are their top destinations.

Gao Sihua, former president of Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, said the university has held many short-term TCM training courses for foreigners. "They are mostly interested in techniques such as acupuncture and massage," he said.

Gao also said that China still lacks professionals with a good command of both TCM and English.

Wang said that apart from seed funding, "we will also help to send qualified TCM workers to the new centres."

The administration has supported other initiatives to promote TCM overseas, such as Confucius Institutes run mainly by the Chinese National Office for Teaching Chinese as a Foreign Language, also known as Hanban.

MarathonTmatt
01-25-2016, 11:06 PM
1) No, the article was spot on. I don't expect those with overly emotional attachments to things they cannot prove to reason without bias, however. Especially the ones that think there are immortals walking amongst us...

2) your knowledge base on this matter is very wanting. I'm going to give you a bit of a hint though because the direction is not the way you think. The majority of accepted "mainstream" medications (i.e. those "evil" pharmaceuticals) are natural compounds. So lets play a logic game. Most meds are natural. Does that mean most natural compounds are therapeutic?

3) Get over this naturalist fallacy you seem to always fall into. Its rotting your ability to critically analyze.

4)

Seems to me the issue is settled by not eating junk. Here's the problem with your claim. Native Americans knew nothing of the condition of diabetes. Hell, NO ONE knew about diabetes until very late 19th century. Also, while skunk cabbage may have some effect on a couple symptoms because it may have diuretic properties, diuretics actually have evidence implicating them in the development of the condition (specifically type 2). So is it curing, or causing? So much for having no side effects...See this is interesting because when researchers began tracking diabetes prevalence in the US, they found that Native Americans have the highest rates of non-insulin dependent diabetes.....things that make you go hmmmmmmmm......

5)

See again point #2. Also learn what constitutes therapeutic dosage. Also, grow up. There are literally hundreds of thousands of researchers across the US with absolutely nothing to do with your arch nemesis, "Big Pharm." I'll tell you the same as herb ox, quit your b!tching and learn to do your own **** research. Proper research.

6)
You're right, the former actually has an understanding of human physiology, the latter didn't even know what a cell was...

This generally happens when one conceptual model is correct and another is not. This is another tangential but interesting point, go learn more about how we humans process information.

7)

Non-sequitur. Also, you don't seem to actually even understand what placebo is, rubbish indeed.

8)
Ad hominem, argument from ignorance and also, you seriously don't know wtf you are talking about. Sorry, but your criticism of what those who have spent their lives studying human biology know, or don't know, is about as valuable as sh!t it a grocery bag. What you know of the human physiology wouldn't fill the palm of my hand, and I'm not even an expert. You need to check your ego and realize how insignificant your knowledge base actually is.

9) Your last paragraph is non directed rambling, not even relevant to your own topic, let alone this greater thread. Did you not get this critique in grade school composition class?


Sorry to be blunt (not really), but this Asimov quote pretty much sums up about 90% of you here.


Okay, first, I have no "emotional" attachments to the issues here. I am just weighing in my perspectives. Some of us can still think for ourselves. Second, I see you are as slanderous as ever. Where did I say I believe immortals walk amongst us? I have reflected upon this possibility, true. But please, quote me where I said I definitively believe this to be the case. In some sense, I know that immortals do walk among us for sure. Spirits never cease to exist... even the rocks and trees have a spirit.

Third, this an internet forumz. This is not an academic research paper I am handing in to a professor... I come from a different background than that and need not conform, at least in this format, to those rules of grammer/ structure, etc. The last paragraph of my previous post on this thread is very relevant to the topic at hand. In fact, I worked with a guy, a meat cutter, who had surgery on his shoulder because of years of wear and tear. If he made some smarter choices to address the problem preventively (qi-gong/ massage/ acupuncture, etc.) he probably could have avoided the surgery further down the line.

Next, I do not know what you mean about "non insulin dependant" diabetes and I don't have the time to look it up. But I will say some words about diabetes and the Native culture. It's true that there is a "epidemic" of diabetes in First Nation communities. West of the Mississippi, on a lot of reservations this is the case. After the last of the "Indian Wars" this started when the people were moved onto reservations ("wastelands" undesirable to settlers)- they were literally given bags of flour and bags of sugar. If they were lucky. And if they were lucky this is all they were able to eat- they would make frybread from those ingrediants which is still a popular food in a lot of places. Even some of the larger Pow-wows on the East Coast have vendors serving frye bread, sort of an NDN identity thing. Anyway, lack of good foods and resources on reservations out West, to this day, has played a big role in the diabetes epidemic.

Also traditionally, it was the case that when the men went out hunting, such as in the Iroquoian culture, they would have small food rations for many days, sometimes eating nothing. They would leave the village with a small pouch of corn meal and dried berries, or some such foods, and that is all they would have for a matter of 3- 4 days, which could actually hold them over well, but probably not to today's standards. But back then, the food was more pure. The water was clean and food was pure. So, you could hold out well for a couple of days on a hunting expedition, and when you returned with the spoils of the trip, you would consume a lot of food. Once the white man's diet was introduced, everything went to hell. Food is no longer pure. It is laced with many poisons poisons such as sugars and bad fatty acids. Traditionally, you could hold out a few days with no food, and then eat some filling portions of meat and all was fine. These days, if you have nothing to eat for a couple of days and than eat sh!t, of course diabetes is likely to become a problem, due to the very bad practices of the food industry, much like the very bad practices of the pharmaceutical industry.

Also, my source for skunk cabbage as medicine comes from a very good source, author Laurie Lacey who wrote a book on Micmac medicines. Lacey is of mixed Micmac and Euro. decent, and starting with his grandmother, went around several Micmac communities and gathered all the information he could about traditional Micmac folk medicine and it's uses. Of course diabetes did not emerge as a problem until the later 19th century but this plant and many others was used in traditional teas and medicines (topical and ingested) for various reasons. Even some of the first European explorers such as Samuel de Champlain were given teas that nursed them back to health. If you have a problem with Native medicines, than maybe you should find somebody like on a tribal council or a historic preservation officer to explain these things to you someday... and if you have the same attitude you have with me you can expect a boot up your arse.

As far as most "meds" being natural... anything can be labelled "natural" these days. Also, the way they are chemically bonded with other substances and also synthesized makes them dangerous. Again, I refer you to the story of my neighbor who took an advil or tylonel and almost died from internal bleeding caused by the pill. Not good.

Furthermore, you make it sound like indigenous cultures had no clue about the physiology of man and the universe. Nothing could be further from the truth. Modern people are like stupid cave men when it comes to understanding such things compared to Native/ Original cultures. I flipped through a book in the bookstore recently called "The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the Origins of Knowledge". It seemed like a good book and you may want to read it. I will not get much more in depth about this issue here but I hold by my statement.

Also, I know **** well what a placebo effect is. And there isn't some stupid placebo effect when dealing with legitimate acupuncture... whoever came up with that notion is an arse-hole.

Now, you may be defending the medical industry because maybe you have some vested or learned interest in doing so. I can understand that. But realize that I am a individual who has never relied on pharmaceutical medicine almost ever. I have never had a shot such as a flu shot. And when I look around me I am stronger and HEALTHIER than most people who do take drugs and go to the doctors and get shots. I was raised with that mind set/ values since I was born so really, insulting me for these different views is like openly insulting somebody if someone is from a different culture- actually, given my ancestry I sort of AM from a different culture from most Americans. For instance when I was young I could not pronounce a European "R". My Native ancestors could not pronounce this "R" sound either before the Europeans came. Instead of tolerance, the teachers stuck me in special education because of this, and my other peculuaraties despite my 8th grade reading level in 2nd grade. My 5th grade music teacher screamed at me and beat me over the head with my trumpet that my parent's had to pay for because I couldn't keep up with all the kids who took private lessons on the side, I jumped out the 2nd story bathroom window in high school to escape, etc. As far as medicine I am just going with what I have always known and what works for me and I say I don't need drugs, and probably most people who take drugs don't need them either or could have prevented themselves from taking them.

herb ox
02-03-2016, 02:13 PM
Thank you, MarathonTmatt!

Indeed, those who have not studied the ancient ways really are operating under false pretenses to say they have the final word regarding said ways.

Logic is relative to culture and circumstance.

"Look at the past and the future as you look at the present.
If you can't even understand that, how will you know about not existing or being alive?
Your state is like that of a deaf-mute who cannot speak peoples language.
How could he hear the notes plucked on the lute?
Talented and analytical you have certain wisdom, receiving the teaching by word of mouth. But while you claim to have penetrated the innermost part of the Tao, you cannot intuit its true inner sense.
Therefore, if you have lost the foundation of life, how could you know the primordial source of the Tao?" - Xishengjing ch 8 / Transl. Livia Kohn

GeneChing
02-17-2016, 11:11 AM
China to promote traditional medicine (http://english.cntv.cn/2016/02/15/ARTIIqKZUbXZQObK46aH7SiH160215.shtml)
Editor: zhangrui 丨Xinhua
02-15-2016 06:46 BJT

BEIJING, Feb. 14 (Xinhua) -- The State Council, China's cabinet, on Sunday promised to boost medical research and development, especially traditional Chinese medicine.

More traditional medicines will be added to the national list of essential drugs, said a statement issued after the executive meeting of the State Council, presided over by Premier Li Keqiang.

More resources and policies will support the development of traditional medicine, the statement said, including conservation of ancient medical texts. The pharmaceutical industry is encouraged to use modern technology in researching traditional medicine, while hospitals and researchers are encouraged to try traditional therapies in treating complex chronic diseases.

Private practices will enjoy equal treatment to state institutions and the network will be expanded.

The state will redouble efforts in the fight against cancer, diabetes and cardiovascular diseases, and policy support in finance, tax and government contracts will support the development and marketing of new medicines.

Improvements will be made to quality control in the pharmaceutical industry and safety assessment of medicines. Quality standards will match international norms.

Restructuring and mergers of pharmaceutical companies are welcomed to remove less competitive players from the market.

A national database of medicine, including information on price and quality assessment, will be open to the public.

If the PRC starts throwing money at TCM, that's going to be a lot of potential funds for promotion.

GeneChing
12-28-2016, 12:20 PM
China passes law to boost traditional medicine (http://www.themalaymailonline.com/features/article/china-passes-law-to-boost-traditional-medicine)
Tuesday December 27, 2016
10:21 AM GMT+8

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/images/sized/ez/20161227_Traditional_Chinese_medication_01_620_413 _100.jpg
Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioners will be able to obtain a licence to work in hospitals and clinics. — AFP pic

BEIJING, Dec 27 — China passed a law at its top legislature on Sunday demonstrating its intention to put greater emphasis on Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) in its healthcare system. The law, which will come into effect on July 1, 2017, will improve patient access to a wider range of healthcare.

This ancient form of medicine has been somewhat neglected since the introduction of Western medicine under the Qing dynasty (1644-1912). Over 2,000 years old, Traditional Chinese Medicine covers five main areas: acupuncture, qigong (exercise), massage, plants and minerals, and dietary therapy.

Unlike Western doctors, practitioners learn the techniques of TCM from a ‘master’ instead of studying the discipline at university.

According to a white paper published by China’s State Council Information Office in December 2016, there are 3,966 TCM hospitals and 42,528 TCM clinics in China, employing around 452,000 practitioners. These hospitals and clinics undertake an average of 910 million consultations per year.

Development of traditional medicine in hospitals

The new law aims to protect and facilitate the development of TCM, requiring regional governments to set up TCM institutions in public-funded general hospitals and mother-and-child care centres.

In addition, practitioners will be able to take exams to obtain a licence allowing them to practise TCM in hospitals or clinics, or to work privately. Up until now, these practitioners could not qualify as doctors, as medical training prioritizes Western medicine and fluency in English.

The new law also stipulates that TCM and Western medicine will be put on an equal footing, with better training of TCM practitioners and monitoring of the use of products containing pesticides.

International exchanges and global cooperation to develop TCM are to be stepped up.

In October 2015, Tu Youyou was the first Chinese person to be awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine, for her work on a traditional anti-malaria medicine. The award of this prestigious prize to a member of the Academy of Chinese Traditional Medical Sciences was met with some surprise.

According to the World Health Organisation, 103 member states approved the practise of acupuncture and moxibustion (a traditional therapy which consists of burning dried mugwort on particular points on the body), 29 have passed laws on traditional medicine, and 18 have included acupuncture and moxibustion in their medical insurance provisions. —AFP-Relaxnews


Curious about the actual wording of said law, and how it will be enforced.

GeneChing
12-30-2016, 11:56 AM
https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iSp.fh.Tgabs/v0/1200x-1.jpg
DON'T BUY IT.
PHOTOGRAPHER: CHINA PHOTOS/GETTY

HEALTH CARE
Traditional Medicine Won't Cure China's Ills (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-12-30/traditional-medicine-won-t-cure-china-s-ills)
8 DEC 29, 2016 7:30 PM EST
By Adam Minter
For decades, practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine (or TCM) have disputed accusations that their craft is a pseudo-science, a placebo, exploitative of endangered species, poisonous and ineffective. Now China's government is fighting on their behalf. On Christmas Day, it passed the country's first law regulating TCM, with the aim of placing it on an equal footing with science-based Western medicine.

It's an expressly political goal, designed to "give a boost to China's soft power," as one spokesperson put it. Unfortunately, it's also misguided. China's health-care system is already burdened by fraud, a shortage of doctors, counterfeit medicine and rank profiteering. Whatever the merits of TCM, raising it to the status of science-based medicine will only provide a distraction from the more urgent task of improving standard medical care.

The practices that constitute traditional medicine -- herbal remedies, dietary treatments, acupuncture -- date back centuries. But TCM as a unified practice only emerged in the 1960s, when China's government institutionalized it to counterbalance ideologically suspect practitioners of Western medicine. As a favored state industry, TCM has prospered: In 2015, total revenue for the traditional pharmaceutical industry reached $114 billion. Those drugs were dispensed by 452,000 practitioners working out of tens of thousands of clinics -- some no more than single-room storefronts.

As with other state-backed industries, the protective hand of government has benefited the industry far more than consumers. The problems start with a lack of oversight over who can practice TCM. Earlier this week, the director of the State Administration of Traditional Chinese Medicine conceded that it's difficult to judge the qualification level of most practitioners. That's a nice way of saying that anybody can claim to be a TCM master. To be fair, China has a network of schools designed to professionalize homeopathic care. But amateurism (or charlatanism) remains alarmingly common, especially in the countryside.

This lack of oversight extends to the thriving industry of traditional pharmaceuticals. Last year, a team of scientists found that nearly 90 percent of TCM remedies marketed in Australia contained undeclared ingredients, including antibiotics and decongestants, heavy metals such as lead and arsenic, and a range of plant and animal matter -- not least, the DNA of endangered snow leopards. The situation is almost certainly worse in China, which lacks Australia's (clearly inadequate) screening procedures. A 2013 Greenpeace study found pesticides in 51 of 65 popular herbal remedies marketed in TCM shops in China and Hong Kong. In one case, contamination levels were 500 times the European Union's accepted safety limit.

It's impossible to calculate the human toll of shady TCM practices, but there are hints. Several recent studies have found that herbal remedies are the leading cause of drug-induced liver failure in China, accounting for as much as 43 percent of all cases. The problem is equally severe in other countries where TCM is rapidly expanding: Herbal remedies may account for up to 40 percent of drug-induced liver injuries in South Korea and 55 percent in Singapore.

Yet the real toll is likely even higher. Despite a dearth of credible evidence that TCM is effective, it still sucks up millions of dollars in public funds that would be better spent on China's regular health-care system, which is badly lagging. The new law, for instance, calls for establishing TCM centers in public hospitals, as well as in pediatric and maternal-care units. This might be justifiable if China was already providing adequate science-based care. But it's not: Chinese hospitals are dangerously overburdened and underfunded, pediatricians are in such short supply that even state media is calling the situation "urgent," and maternal health care -- especially in rural areas -- is notable for its lack of cleanliness and pain relief.

Although the new law's emphasis on criminal penalties for adulterating TCM drugs is laudable, it's far less important than stamping out rampant counterfeiting and fraud in China's science-based pharmaceutical industry. That will require heavy investments in regulation and technology, and will need to go well beyond the criminal penalties that have failed to achieve much so far.

China's traditional medicine business is bound to persist, and the government should regulate it for safety. But promoting it to unwitting patients who believe it's as effective as science-based medicine isn't just a bad idea. It's malpractice.

This column does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the editorial board or Bloomberg LP and its owners.

To contact the author of this story:
Adam Minter at aminter@bloomberg.net

To contact the editor responsible for this story:
Timothy Lavin at tlavin1@bloomberg.net
I wonder if this author thinks the U.S. Health system is burdened by fraud, a shortage of doctors, counterfeit medicine and rank profiteering. We certainly have issues with insurance.