Is Grappling Overrated?

[Great Sage]

With the introduction of such sports competitions as UFC, Pride and Prancrase many people have jumped unto the grappling bandwagon. In truth, grappling has been a lost art that thankfully has only begun to resurface. However, it’s naive that so many now believe grappling to be the ultimate martial art.

Now, from time to time, I hear people jeering that Tae Kwon Do, karate and kung-fu are weak compared to Muay Thai and Brazilian Jui jitsu... In defense of the these martial arts (TKD, karate, Kung-fu), with so many practitioners you are bound to get a variety of good and mediocre fighters. Some fault lies in the marketing machine of martial arts. Many instructors are out to make a living first and before instructing.

In boxing, you’re likely to get better fighters because the money is much, much more. BIG money encourages better work ethics, more training and better trainers. The average TKD practitioner cannot aspire beyond anything else, other than a few trophies or a low-end kickboxing career.

Consequently, I’ve noticed that Muay Thai is headed down the same road as TKD. Every year Thai instructors flock to the US introducing their brand of Muay Thai. Furthermore, American instructors trained in Thailand are now very accessable. It’s a simple equation that the more people learning one art, the greater the number of mediocre fighters within that art.

I try to emphasize to many students that UFC is a grapplers version of boxing... It isn’t REAL fighting. When I was in grappling, I was told 90% of fights end up on the ground... However, nobody mentions that about 3/4 of that 90% involve people who can’t fight.

Nothing I’ve seen has convinced me that grappling is more effective than striking or that Muay Thai kicks are more powerful than TKD kicks. Muay Thai fighters in general have more conditioned legs, but the concept is like swinging a bat. The idea of swing versus snap is debatable...

[Merryprankster]

Actually, an MT round kick is going to be more powerful than a similarly TKD round kick, all other things equal. The disadvantage is that you can't change kicks midstream as well. Chambering allows you to change the kick if you need to. Different philosophy, neither right nor wrong.

Is grappling overrated? By some. But some people think you can knock out a wrestler before he gets there or stop a shot by dropping into stance and "redirecting their energy.":rolleyes:

Real life is obviously more dynamic than such solutions.

The level of guilt on all sides is rather large. If grappling is not a stylistic emphasis, learning some is a remarkably good idea. By the same token, a wrestler that doesn't know how to defend strikes very well could be in a heap of trouble provided our proverbial striker can stay on his feet.

It's a necessity for a well rounded MA education. It is not the end all.

For the record when I say "learn some grappling," that doesn't mean "Go find the grappling the instructor knows," I mean, seek out a good wrestling coach, a judoka, SC guy, BJJer, etc and learn what you need.

[red5angel]

GS - seeing as this is your second post on this forum I am going to cushion the blow for you.

No real martial artist, sport or otherwise, worth his weight is going to tell you there is one best way, or one art is better then another. Good grapplers will tell you that knowing the ground game is what is important, not being an expert at it, unless that is what you are looking for. Lately grappling has lost some steam, since more and more people are now beginning to address this long lost range of martial combat. No it is not the ultimate art, neither is any other. If it is overrated it is overrated by individuals who know no better. GRound fighting is soemthing that should be addressed by any martial art, and for sport fighters it is a necessity to train.

now let the beating begin.....

[Water Dragon]

One clarification. Although I wholeheartedly endorse SC, it wont give you any groundfighting skills.

[yenhoi]

how can an entire range of of fighting be "overrated?"

grappling is not a martial art.

I try to emphasize to many students that UFC is a grapplers version of boxing..

that would basically be lying. Boxing (Queensbury rules) is limited to punching techniques. UFC is hardly limited compared to boxing or any other event except that colorado and japanese randomness.

However, nobody mentions that about 3/4 of that 90% involve people who can’t fight.

everyone can fight, this is a dangerous attitude.

Nothing I’ve seen has convinced me that grappling is more effective than striking or that Muay Thai kicks are more powerful than TKD kicks. Muay Thai fighters in general have more conditioned legs, but the concept is like swinging a bat. The idea of swing versus snap is debatable...

you should read around and learn something about these random (but common) style generalizations. "It" has nothing to do with thai kicks or TKD kicks, it is entirely based on my particular skills, conditioning, etc vs you. Individuals, trying to hurt each other. I have never seen two styles fight each other, and the human body has no style bias when it comes to pain.

:eek:

[Brad Souders]

Grappling is fake. Please stay away from grappling arts and MMA type styles they will give you a false sense of security. Futhermore you will become an ego driven a**hole and think just because u have more weapons than the person u face in the street it will help you. BANNED GRAPPLING!!!!!

Brad "Anti-grappler" Souders

[ewallace]

Of course grappling is overrated. Have you ever tried a double-leg takedown on a midget? It's unpossible to pull off. The myth of grappling being effective was disproved the instant The Discovery Channel aired it's first segment on Dim Mak. No one in their right mind would risk a poison hand strike to the eyes or the neck when trying to take down the good kung-fuer. Plus every "REAL" martial artist knows that grapplers don't train full contact. They just practice their submissions in a pre-arranged series of movements against an imaginary opponent.

LMAO that you think the UFC is real. GS probably still believes that Pro Wrestling is real.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
Grappling is fake. Please stay away from grappling arts and MMA type styles they will give you a false sense of security. Futhermore you will become an ego driven a**hole and think just because u have more weapons than the person u face in the street it will help you. BANNED GRAPPLING!!!!!

Brad "Anti-grappler" Souders

Have you ever sparred with a grappler, ie a Wrestler, judoka, BJJ fighter, a Japanese JJ ka? I think most MAist that don't spar hard and often are the ones that have a false sense of security. So all of these artists are A holes. I train and teach Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (http://www.taijutsu.com/ninjutsu.htm), which is grappling based art(As are all japanese born arts) with lots of striking and weapons. I also train with some BJJ guys and MMA guys. They are some of the most well-rounded niceist people I have met.
Also BTW MMA are not grapplers , they are different % of boxing + Muay Thai+ Greco+ BJJ, with some subsitutions. (sambo, kickboxing, kyokushi etc)

[Water Dragon]

LOL @ shinbushi thinking Brad was sincere.

[ewallace]

For the record, I think that Great Sage is a regular forum member who got tired of all the political threads and wanted to get things back to normal around here. On the Rollsigraph I would score this attempt a 1.2.

[Former castleva]

Way to go styles!! ;)
I think some MMA´s would join you with this,when it comes to character.

"When I was in grappling, I was told 90% of fights end up on the ground... "
Is this science?
Without further evidence,may this remain questionable.

It is like a practitioner of alternative medicine promoting his therapeutic herbs by telling you how harmful synthetic medication can be,and how natural his is.
Forgetting that ppl have died of those natural drugs,and synthetic does not equal unnatural,but rather it´s chemical build-up.

Alternatively enough,here´s an argument between a neurologist and a cardiologist-I made this story up by myself.:
Neurologist:My art is more important,without central nervous system that we work on,there would be no beating hearts.
Cardiologist:Ha! But without a working heart,your precious brain would die!
Neurologist:But we operate on the master organ!
Cardiologist:Man,you´ve got a few kilometres of tissue and a lump to work on,but mine is to be associated with the heart and kilometres,and then kilomeeetres of vein...
Neurologist:It only takes the hind brain to control the heart!
The argument goes on...

Both guys are experts on the same field,with certain specialties.
What are they arguing about?

[red5angel]

exallace is correct on both points...the midget thing and the GS being a former member.....

[old jong]

Grappling is very underated!...The fact that seals,marines and other elite warriors carry weapons is proof of it!...Why use tanks at all when they could as well (and for a lot lower cost) send legions of grapplers to Irak, armed with only their testoterone and a touch of steriods? We all know that guns,knifes,grenades,shovels,bazookas are useless against a shooting grappler.(as seen on TV in the UFC'' I II and III.)
The only thing that can beat a grappler is a bigger grappler or two or three smaller grapplers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shinbushi


Have you ever sparred with a grappler, ie a Wrestler, judoka, BJJ fighter, a Japanese JJ ka? I think most MAist that don't spar hard and often are the ones that have a false sense of security. So all of these artists are A holes. I train and teach Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (http://www.taijutsu.com/ninjutsu.htm), which is grappling based art(As are all japanese born arts) with lots of striking and weapons. I also train with some BJJ guys and MMA guys. They are some of the most well-rounded niceist people I have met.
Also BTW MMA are not grapplers , they are different % of boxing + Muay Thai+ Greco+ BJJ, with some subsitutions. (sambo, kickboxing, kyokushi etc)

lmao@ you getting trolled - he is a grappler...

[Xebsball]

lol Brad :D

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by ewallace
For the record, I think that Great Sage is a regular forum member who got tired of all the political threads and wanted to get things back to normal around here. On the Rollsigraph I would score this attempt a 1.2.

Actually, I've never been here before... Just found it by accident while looking for Martial Arts news and happenings. I've never dwelled in the politics of martial arts, so I wouldn't know about it in here.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Actually, an MT round kick is going to be more powerful than a similarly TKD round kick, all other things equal. The disadvantage is that you can't change kicks midstream as well. Chambering allows you to change the kick if you need to. Different philosophy, neither right nor wrong.

I have to disagree, I've seen kung-fu, karate and Many TKD fighters break just about anything with their kicks... I can kick just as hard as any Thai Boxer I've sparred with. The point being it's in the legs. Most people assume Thai Boxers kick harder, but it's actually the impact of their legs which are hardened through conditioning.

The average Joe that goes to the gym to practice TKD may not have shin breaking legs, but his power can come from speed and snap, much like a rubber band. Just imagine if he were to condition his legs similar to a Muay Thai boxer?

Thai Kicks = Swing
TKD Kicks = Snap

Well conditioned leg = Swing or Snap, it's gonna hurt somebody.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Great Sage

I think this thread should have sharp teeth and nappy, spiked neon hair, but here goes anyway...

With the introduction of such sports competitions as UFC, Pride and Prancrase many people have jumped unto the grappling bandwagon. In truth, grappling has been a lost art that thankfully has only begun to resurface. However, it’s naive that so many now believe grappling to be the ultimate martial art.

1993 called - it said it wants it's mullet back. nobody really thinks that grappling is the be-all-end-all anymore. Not anyone with a clue, anyway. However, it's a necessity, IMO, to have some ground experience.

Now, from time to time, I hear people jeering that Tae Kwon Do, karate and kung-fu are weak compared to Muay Thai and Brazilian Jui jitsu... In defense of the these martial arts (TKD, karate, Kung-fu), with so many practitioners you are bound to get a variety of good and mediocre fighters. Some fault lies in the marketing machine of martial arts. Many instructors are out to make a living first and before instructing.

some aspects are more powerful. A muay thai kick, for example, is designed to act like a baseball bat - it doesn't snap back - it goes through the target. muay thai by design is a destructive style - hard follow through, relentless conditioning, etc. the methods of training are what lends it most of it's power, but the mechanics hold alot of it also.

In boxing, you’re likely to get better fighters because the money is much, much more. BIG money encourages better work ethics, more training and better trainers. The average TKD practitioner cannot aspire beyond anything else, other than a few trophies or a low-end kickboxing career.

it's not just money. not alot of money in bjj, not alot of money in judo,, not alot of money in muay thai. Sport styles tend to attract people who like to train hard. And, if they expect to compete and win, they have to train hard. Consequently, they train harder than the run of the mill joe who doesn't care for competition.

Consequently, I’ve noticed that Muay Thai is headed down the same road as TKD. Every year Thai instructors flock to the US introducing their brand of Muay Thai. Furthermore, American instructors trained in Thailand are now very accessable. It’s a simple equation that the more people learning one art, the greater the number of mediocre fighters within that art.

true - it's bound to happen. The thing with sport fighting though, is that it proves or disproves itself eventually. If a guy opens a McThai school and his guys compete and regularly get their arse handed to them, the fighters will have to asses where the problem lies... the school will probably not be around long.

I try to emphasize to many students that UFC is a grapplers version of boxing... It isn’t REAL fighting. When I was in grappling, I was told 90% of fights end up on the ground... However, nobody mentions that about 3/4 of that 90% involve people who can’t fight.

don't forget to tell them that whatever you do in your school isn't real fighting either. It's only training. when it comes down to it, that's all that any of it is. Training for the ring has several advantages that should serve you well in the street though.

As far as people fighting - most likely, you won't be fighting a trained fighter. If/when he loses his balance, he may take you down with him. he may intentionally want to drag you onto the ground so he can pummel you. You could be fighting multiple opponents and either fall or get knocked to the ground. Regardless of the situation or who you THINK you will be fighting, once you're on the ground, you need a clue of what to do.

Nothing I’ve seen has convinced me that grappling is more effective than striking or that Muay Thai kicks are more powerful than TKD kicks. Muay Thai fighters in general have more conditioned legs, but the concept is like swinging a bat. The idea of swing versus snap is debatable...

it's not really all that debatable once you've felt the difference. As far as grappling being more effective - it depends on the situation. If I being the Good Grappler(TM) know how to strike and defend strikes, and you being the person assuming all I can do is grapple and that you can easily beat a grappler, etc. you will be the that's very surprised in the end. If you have a more realistic view, and train all ranges and feel comfortable there, than you may fair well in a clinch of on the ground, and may be able to defend takedowns if you've trained them properly. MMA guys realized along time ago that you need to be well rounded.

[Former castleva]

Someone stick a stick into that wheel.

[SevenStar]

I think that's the first time in months that you've used an icon other than the thumbs up! :eek:

What's with you and this megaman kick lately? just a fan?

[dezhen2001]

yenhoi whats with the ---> :eek: in almost every single one of your posts? :D

dawood

[Former castleva]

SevenStar,
I´m grateful for attention displayed.
True about "thumbs up".Which is there conciously,Some positive boost will rarely hurt,considering that balance is not to be taken for granted. :cool:

Sort of a fan in certain ways,maybe.
Source of inspiration.

:cool:

[TaoBoy]

Brad is correct. All grapplers are wankers! :eek:

[DragonzRage]

That's like asking if knowing how to punch someone is overrated. You shouldn't blanket all grappling as one style of MA. If you want to talk about specific grappling styles (Bjj, shuai chiao, wrestling, etc) then that's another story. But grappling itself is an essential aspect to the whole of hand to hand combat. Any style that neglects to sufficiently address one of the "ranges" of h2h fighting is inherently incomplete (as a freestyle fighting method). Grappling is the dominant factor in MMA competition, and for that reason I think some people out there have put too much faith in pure grappling as a practical streetfighting strategy. In a street situation, going straight for Ground n' pound or kimura might not always be the smartest thing to do. But to be fair, i would much rather have a strong grappler with ring experience (even if he doesn't have the most sound approach to fighting in the street) watching my back in a street fight than a dojo warrior black belt who thinks he can go Jet Li on four attackers at once.

And I think you are wrong about Muay Thai going the way of the McDojo. The thing is, no matter how many MT instructors show up here, standards in MT will always be determined by the fighters. Muay Thai competition is a fairly realistic and valid gauge of fighting skill. If your gym produces lousy fighters or no fighters at all, it will not get any real respect in the Muay Thai community. If more and more gyms pop up and actually find an adequate number of students, then the amount of competition in the fighting events will greatly increase. So if anything, having more MT gyms around will actually raise the standards of MT, IMO. In styles such as traditional kung fu or TKD, you can have respect and get a lot of students whether you fight or not. If you have lineage or a good marketing strategy, that's all it takes to establish yourself. And events such as forms competition, lion dancing, or point fighting do not really gauge functional fighting ability much.

Sanda has the potential to raise the standards of kung fu, but a good portion of the kung fu community probably won't embrace it. And although Sanda is Chinese in origin, it is still its own thing separated from traditional KF. It will never be as implicit that a kung fu school should produce San Shou competitors as it is that a Muay Thai gym should produce MT fighters.

[red5angel]

I think there is a big difference between the snap and the swing. For instance, you snap me with a wet towel, it stings, might even raise a welt, but you hit me with a stick and you might put me out!
I have a heard a lot of arguments for "snapping" power but haven't seen any real evidence that snapping doesn't actually hurt your power potential. For instance, TMA guys often snap, whilst MT guys often swing, and MT guys seem to be competing more effectively in the ring...

[Nevermind]

Don't be too quick to assume that all TKD schools focus on snapping kicks. At the dojang I used to attend, we were taught to use both styles of kicks depending on what the situation was. For sparring or tournaments we were taught to use the snapping style roundhouse, for example. Other than stinging really bad or leaving a welt, it really wasn't too damaging. However, for true knockout or "breaking" power, as it was called, we were taught to open the hips and kick through the target, putting the whole body behind it. I think the whole "snap" style of kicking was really only implemented for competition. Anyone who thinks this style of kick will stop an attacker is making a dangerous assumption.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Great Sage


I have to disagree, I've seen kung-fu, karate and Many TKD fighters break just about anything with their kicks... I can kick just as hard as any Thai Boxer I've sparred with. The point being it's in the legs. Most people assume Thai Boxers kick harder, but it's actually the impact of their legs which are hardened through conditioning.

The average Joe that goes to the gym to practice TKD may not have shin breaking legs, but his power can come from speed and snap, much like a rubber band. Just imagine if he were to condition his legs similar to a Muay Thai boxer?

Thai Kicks = Swing
TKD Kicks = Snap

Well conditioned leg = Swing or Snap, it's gonna hurt somebody.

so a backfist is just as powerful as a reverse punch?

[Captain Chicken]

From what I have seen, grappling either involves someone with 230 lbs of solid rock muscle, or someone standing there waiting for the sifu to finish the technique. What I have experienced in real fights is a big musclure guy landing on me like an avalanch, or someone getting hit repetedly as he tries to grab me. CRAINS RULL! Snakes make the top 5:-)

[yenhoi]

dezhen2001: usually when I read my post after I write it, the look on my face is :eek: but sometimes im like yo dude its all :cool: or hey red5, f uck you :D

:eek:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Sort of a fan in certain ways,maybe.
Source of inspiration.

:cool:

Fight, former castleva! Fight for world peace!

[Brad Souders]

LOL oops did i play a trick on someone?

Brad "training MMA since 1993" Souders

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by FatherDog

Fight, former castleva! Fight for world peace!

lol :D

[rogue]

Of course grappling is overrated, just look at their hair. We pure strikers have nicer hair, and it looks great flying around when we do our jumping kicks. Grapplers on the other hand have very nasty hair, and they all have bald spots from rubbing their heads on those nasty ring worm infested matts!:eek:

[SevenStar]

I thought all strikers had mullets...

[rogue]

Nah, that's just Wing Chun and Mantis guys. We TKD fighters have our own secret hair styling techniques that make us deadly while looking real good.

[yenhoi]

man thats just harsh.

tkd biatch.

:eek:

[rogue]

Wow 7*, you mention mullets and Watchman shows up here.

[old jong]

I thought TKD could make you dead while looking real good!:p :p :p

[Chang Style Novice]

shaved head with dot pattern: shaolin
dirty unkempt dreadlocks: hippy tai chee
shaved head with goatee: MMA
mullet: krotty
long hair held back by ****y headband: mooey thai
black beret with pencil moustache: savate
queue: wire fu
gelled spikes: tkd

[rogue]

The phases of a WC guy who switches to BJJ (http://www.mulletjunky.com/webimages/phases.jpg)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Captain Chicken
From what I have seen, grappling either involves someone with 230 lbs of solid rock muscle, or someone standing there waiting for the sifu to finish the technique. What I have experienced in real fights is a big musclure guy landing on me like an avalanch, or someone getting hit repetedly as he tries to grab me. CRAINS RULL! Snakes make the top 5:-)

Congratulations. Not only does your post demonstrate considerable ignorance of grappling, you've also managed to include at least one spelling or grammar error in every single sentence. You casually exhibit depths of ignorance impossible to reach for the average man. Stand proud.

[Cheese Dog]

Grappling is OVERRATED by grapplers without experience in standup.

Grappling is UNDERRATED by standup fighters who don't know how to grapple.

If you can't fight in all 4 ranges of combat, your training is sorely lacking.

[Brad Souders]

Originally posted by Cheese Dog
Grappling is OVERRATED by grapplers without experience in standup.

Grappling is UNDERRATED by standup fighters who don't know how to grapple.

If you can't fight in all 4 ranges of combat, your training is sorely lacking.


Holy Sh*t we have a winner!!! And your prize will be an all expensed paid trip to Being A Complete Fighter Land.

Brad "GOD" Souders

[sapphire tygre]

O.K. heres my take on it. There was a wrestler who was strong, had muscular, weighttrained legs, and a low center of gravity. He drew a circle and made the challenge. At first when we made contact he started to take control of my momentum, but I reversed it and threw him. I had no experience, was probably lighter, and definitely wasn't weighttrained.
At another time this guy who took some kind of kung fu or related art challenged me and a freind to take him down. We coudn't. And I mean coudn't even get a hold on him. This guy was skinnier than me or my freind. He also had counter kicks that were effective. So, these and other experiences have made me think that "wrestling" skills are probably only good in real life if you're naturally good anyway, but a kung fu style skill can be achieved and is more practical for self defense for most people. Sparring is another story.

[Kaitain(UK)]

oh please

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sapphire tygre
O.K. heres my take on it. There was a wrestler who was strong, had muscular, weighttrained legs, and a low center of gravity. He drew a circle and made the challenge. At first when we made contact he started to take control of my momentum, but I reversed it and threw him. I had no experience, was probably lighter, and definitely wasn't weighttrained.
At another time this guy who took some kind of kung fu or related art challenged me and a freind to take him down. We coudn't. And I mean coudn't even get a hold on him. This guy was skinnier than me or my freind. He also had counter kicks that were effective. So, these and other experiences have made me think that "wrestling" skills are probably only good in real life if you're naturally good anyway, but a kung fu style skill can be achieved and is more practical for self defense for most people. Sparring is another story.

to quote braden:

"You are not just wrong - you are the complete polar opposite of what's right"

[sapphire tygre]

So you're saying that for self defense an average strength person should commit themselves to a grappling fight? My point was that natural strength is going to overcome any skills learned in a classroom. Grappling is mostly natural athletic ability, unlike other ma that are designed specifically for average or slight people to utilise effectively. "grappling" is a sport.

[Merryprankster]

I am an average athlete. When I say that, what I mean is that I am an athlete, so I'm better off than most people, but by all measurements, I am average, as an athlete. I am regularly outclassed in strength, speed, explosiveness and power, especially in upper body strength. I look kinda like a normal guy who takes decent care of himself.

I make up for that by trying to be a better student of the game, and I've done reasonably well by all measurements.

FWIW, I've known plenty of muscular guys who sucked. Using one experience as a basis for generalization is not simply wrong, it is the polar opposite of what is correct. I have--literally--a couple of hundred samples I can pull from in a competitive context and a thousand or more from a training persepctive.

The fact that you say grappling is all about natural athletic ability demonstrates complete ignorance on the subject.

Go learn--go train. When you have your ass handed to you by a 112 lb woman or somebody you outweigh by 30 lbs while grappling/vale tudo type sparring, we'll have a useful discussion.

[Lowlynobody]

Cheese Dog said it. All there is to it.

[sapphire tygre]

I was just giving examples. All my experiences lead to my conclusions. A 112 pound woman? Reality check: that last thing you want to be doing with an angry, possibly stronger opponent is "wrestling".

[Merryprankster]

Reality check: the FIRST thing I want to be doing with a larger or stronger opponent is grappling with him because I have 8 years of grappling skill to back that up. Maybe its the last thing you want to do, but it's the first thing I want to do because of my experience. I want to be close enough that he can't hit me hard and I want to be close enough to move him as I see fit. And I can testify that moving large people without grappling experience isn't very hard. I suspect that if I had 8 years of kickboxing, I'd have a different opinion.

Reality Check part 2: A 112 lb woman will likely be put on her ass by a 150 lbs average male. Her shots will likely lack the force needed to do anything more than **** him off or make him laugh as he throws her to the ground. This is a reality of weight and sex differentials that many people like to pretend does not exist. She is also unlikely to avoid grappling--it's really not so easy. Close enough to kick, close enough to grab. If she doesn't know how to grapple, she's at his mercy. If she does, she has a chance. If she happens to be pretty good, he may be at a disadvantage.

My point is not that one is better than the other. My point is that grappling is not all about natural abilities, and that grappling is going to be unavoidable in many situations. Consequently, some knowledge of same is desirable. I'm all for that 112 lbs woman whacking him in the groin, twisting free and running off--but to ignore an entire area just because "it's not a good idea," or because "it's all about natural ability," seems not very smart to me.

[sapphire tygre]

I understand the usefulness of grappling, and I think it's practical too, but were dealing with people who think that grappling is fighting. I don't think grappling is fighting, and I also think thats why kung fu has so many non-sport elements in it. Is grappling good to know? I'm sure it is, but the whole attitude of equating grappling with fighting is not logical, and the warrior code and philosophy of kung fu does not mesh with the sport of wrestling. People are trying to combine incompatible philosophies and codes of action.

[Merryprankster]

Grappling CAN BE fighting, however, it doesn't have to be. Many people who fight combine a strong grappling base with strikes to create a personal style that works for them.

I think what you really mean to say is that grappling competitions are not fights. Which is true. But then again, any competition isn't a fight. It's a laboratory for testing, as closely as possible within reasonable safety limits, sets of fighting skills that may be more or less restrictive depending on venue.

Don't get me started on "warrior code...." :D

[sapphire tygre]

I agree. I just wanted to bring to light the obvious fundamental differences between grappling and kung fu, and grappling and fighting.
I think the warrior code is similar all over, and certain sports are just plain incompatible with it. People say they can separate activities, but I think our instincts are governed by what we phisically do repetitively.

[Merryprankster]

I don't think labeling wrestling as something that is incompatible with a warrior code or ethic is accurate. The greeks, turks, egyptians, indians and japanese--all ancient cultures--all had their own indigenous forms of wrestling that were practiced by the warriors, for sportive matches.

[sapphire tygre]

Speaking of safety limits, if there were absolutely no rules ufc the champ would probably be a guy who weighed 150 pounds.:D

[Kaitain(UK)]

"I agree. I just wanted to bring to light the obvious fundamental differences between grappling and kung fu, and grappling and fighting."

which are? how about the difference between kung fu and fighting?

People who study both are telling you the realities of this topic - you don't study any grappling, and base your opinions on a single incident with a wrestler, yet you're convinced that grappling is not relevant to fighting.

Do what I did, get the first 3 UFC's and watch carefully - pay particular attention to the rules. Then get the Gracie in Action tapes and watch what happens to someone who goes for a groin grab. Then look at what it is that you train and ask 'what if I end up on the floor with someone bigger and stronger than me? Does anything I know work on the floor?'. I found out that the answers were not satisfactory, so I started BJJ.

Fights close to grappling distance unless you're lucky enough to drop someone with your first hit (unlikely). Untrained people will grab you. When people get dropped they will grab at you. Grappling starts there - the groundwork is for those situations when, despite all your efforts, you end up on the deck. Grappling is probably the major component of fighting - for me it's the base from which I launch all my strikes (Taiji 101). I've found no problems integrating my stand-up with the new grappling I'm learning.

You're using arguments a lot of people (including me) have tried. I thought similarly to you about 2 years ago - I gradually came to see things differently.

At the end of the day, the only person you need to convince is yourself.

What is the warrior code?

[sapphire tygre]

Yes but I think they seperated sport from fighting. I really think thats why kung fu has so much spiritual content to it. A lot of people say they believe in the "external" elements to kung fu but dont believe in these other concepts. I mean, if you read the code of tiger style it is filled with "esoteric", and "mystical" stuff. How could you end up with an effective style if you take away half its content? I'm off topic here but a lot of posts by grapplers and others specifically state their disbelief in these elements.

[sapphire tygre]

I understand that grappling is useful, but only to a certain point. I think that if a grappler is going to be effective then they have to be extremely good, even strong. Once two people are on the ground and wrestling it just seems like the factors of strength etc add up. You even understand this as you state that it has to be combined with non grappling techniques.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Of course it does - as Merry said, if you have no striking training then you're going to find it difficult to close to grapple anyway.

I don't think anyone would say pure grappling is sufficient to fight with. Just as a lot of people would say that pure striking is insufficient to fight with.

It is wrong to assume that grappling is all about size and muscle. The primary asset need is skill - a huge guy with no skill against a small guy with grappling ability will probably lose. If they both have the same skill then the big guy should win. Not much different to striking really - natural assets are important but do not carry nearly as much weight as skill. I'd say natural assets are more useful in striking - a big guy could lend a lucky punch that has enough power to knock you cold. My limited experience so far is you don't get lucky in ground grappling - and I know for a fact that someone with skill in standup grappling dominates someone with none

[sapphire tygre]

BTW The reason I brought up those two examples was to illustrate the fact that if the skinny guy had tried grappling techniques he would have lost. I know you're going to say "how do you know that?" and of course I dont know for sure, but the fact that his evasive style worked so well should be a clear example of its effectiveness. The other example illustrates the fact that even a strong, trained wrestler is highly vulnerable once he makes contact.

[Kaitain(UK)]

watch UFC 1-3 - Royce Gracie (BJJ) beats Dan Severn (Wrestling). Royce was 160 (or something - very light and skinny), Dan Severn must have been 220+ (monster of a man). He beats a whole lot of bigger and stronger guys.

Evasion is great - what happens when it goes wrong and he gets grabbed? Be good to know some grappling so it's not a disaster

[Lowlynobody]

Granted there are many differences between "grappling" eg BJJ and "kung fu" eg Yau Kung Mun or Bak Mei. But in a system where one of the ideal positions to attack from is to be bridged (be it with legs or arms) with the opponent you better know how to control/handle someone at that sort of range.

[KnightSabre]

sapphire tygre,

Actually in the first UFC's when the only rules were no biting and eye gouging,it was dominated by a 176 pounder name Royce Gracie,he beat guys like 230 pound Ken Shamrock,230 pound Kimo Leopoldo,260 pound Dan Severn,260 pound Remco Pardoel,200 pound Keith Hackney, 220 pound Gerard Gordeau and 220 pound Pat Smith.

And yes he did it with just grappling.

Grappling is most certainly a fighting style,in grappling competitions there are many rules and this is not fighting but grappling skill can very definately be used in a real fight,I know I've used it more than once.

Take one of my students,
he has been training for 9 months he weighs 132 pounds.
On Saturdays we have open grappling,one of the new students rocked up on Saturday to grapple,he weighs about 190 and is very athletic,he gyms and has a wrestling back ground.
The smaller more experienced student tapped him with a triangle,an armbar from the mount and a rear naked,the bigger guy was very suprised.

I think of all the styles grappling skill can overcome a bigger size and strength advantage.
Just look at the MMA match between Antonio Nogiera 230 pounds versus Bob Sapp 370 pounds.

[Kaitain(UK)]

despite being pile-driven into the deck :)

[Merryprankster]

No offense sapphire, but I think your strong, skilled wrestler was yanking your chain. A skilled guy doesn't just lose contact, especially on somebody with limited stand-up grappling experience. And no, you don't know about the skinny guy. What you know is that what the skinny guy did worked. That it was not grappling doesn't say that grappling wouldn't have worked for him, it says that he did whatever he did well enough. If the skinny guy had studied judo, we'd be having a different conversation right now when he dropped one guy with o-soto-gari directly onto the other one. :)

On this particular issue (narrow scope, grappling), you really don't know what you are talking about. No offense-- I know nothing of weapons or Tai Chi.

If you are genuinely interested in finding out about this, either arrange a sparring session with the local BJJ school, vale tudo rules, or find a good wrestler who doesn't mind taking a few shots.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Merry said:

I know nothing of weapons or Tai Chi.

Doesn't stop you trolling our forum though :)

[sapphire tygre]

Sure grappling can be effective but how probable is it that rapidly changing styles is going to be effective? Dont different styles clash, even hinder each other? I also happen to think that grappling is highly effective, but only for a few people. Grapplers on this forum are selling it like everybody should do it, come on for a lot (probably most) people grappling is not something they can integrate into another style. Grappling should come with a warning label..."Do not attempt unless you are monkey strong."

[Merryprankster]

I've grappled for 8 years. I know when I'm hearing something that's an informed opinion about the subject and something that isn't. Your opinion is not informed, if you believe that grappling requires great strength or special talent or athletic ability. For MOST people, not knowing some grappling is a perfectly awful idea. I'm not suggesting becoming an expert. I'm suggesting going out and becoming familiar with the attack modes so you can stick to your prefered range/modes.

I'll say it again. You don't know what you're talking about. Go out, hunt around a bit, and see what you can discover.

FWIW, ground grappling never clashes with a stand-up style. The way of moving is entirely too different for them to clash. Completely different world.

[Oso]

Hey, Wheres ST00 been?

just a thought.....

[sapphire tygre]

Point taken. Just so everybody knows, grappling is fine with me. I naturally get in close and go for the takedown.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Here I am Oso.

Can I help you?


I suspect that if I had 8 years of kickboxing

I have 8 years of kickboxing and Grappling is still the best option.
Control. You want it. Strike to close the gap. Control his swinging limbs and put him on the ground where you will dominate him.

"Most people on the street have ZERO ground fighting skills. While standing, they have a rudimentary game plan at best: ("I will strike the other person until they give up or are knocked out. If he tries to strike me, I will either take his punches or try to block them. This plan, though rudimentary, has worked for me since grade school and is in accordance with every action movie/TV show/sporting event I have ever watched.") Take them to the ground and they will try to get on top and hit you, or, if they can't be on top, try to get a headlock and hang on ("HEY! I got his head!! I'm WINNING!!!). Begin to establish position, transition to a superior position, overcome resistance and apply a submission, choke, or pin, and they are clueless. You can almost see their brain freeze up, overwhelmed by the rapid transition of events. (In military parlance, you have overwhelmed their OODA ("Observe-Orient-Decide-Act") cycle).

The ground can be your friend. It limits his movements, allowing joint locking techniques to be far more effective and difficult to escape from than if those joint locks are applied standing, aikido or kung fu-style. If he is on the bottom, it limits his shoulder rotation and hip movement, reducing his ability to effectively strike. If it is not good for one person in a fight to be the one on the ground, then obviously, it is going to be better for the other person. WHY NOT BE THAT OTHER PERSON? "

[Knifefighter]

You know, you grappling types crack me up. A master striker can stop almost any grappler from taking him down, either with good mobility or by having a strong root. I’ve met many old masters who cannot be taken down by anyone because they know how to do these things. These are people know how to fight for real, not someone who thinks he can fight just because he has competed in a sport environment that favors grapplers.

As far as a weaker person beating me with grappling, give me a break. I’ve been lifting weights since I was 16. There’s no way someone who is weaker than I am is going to out-grapple me. I don’t care how much "wrasslin’ technique" he knows, Any woman or skinny-necked geek who tries to put one of those supposed submissions on me is going to find out pretty fast that it won't work.

I may not be the best, but I can keep almost any grappler from taking me down. I have over 20 years experience as a striker. And for the rare grappler that does manage to take me down, what are you going to do when we hit the ground and I pull out my blade?

The street is not the ring.

[Merryprankster]

That's it knifefighter! I challenge you to a controlled contact continuous sparring fight to the DEATH!

[red5angel]

sapphire - how long have you been doing the martial arts? Be honest, because it seems ot me, and it probably seems that way to others here that your experience is fairly limited.
You are saying alot of things someone who doesn't really understand fighting would say. Let's start with your grappling/striking debate. An understanding and atleast a minimum of skill in both are needed to be a well rounded fighter. It doesn't mean you can't just learn one and be an effective fighter but your scope is more narrow. If you are a stand up fighter and someone gets you on the ground, you could be in trouble. If you are a grappler, and you can't get your opponent into a grapple, you are in trouble.Thats why bjj was so successful in the beginning of reality fighting, and why most reality fighters still study both striking and grappling, better to be prepared for anything! In the beginning all these strikers weren't prepared ot be taken down!
Warrior codes - warrior codes are more for sport fighting then anything else in my opinion. In the ring you have the luxury of being"nice" or proper to a certain degree, just look at Sumo. however, on the street your warrior code may just get you killed if you aren't looking at things in a realistic manner.
Size and strength play a part in all things martial, however, a better skilled person can sometimes overcome that. On the opposite end of the scale, there are those people who are just tough as nails and will take your first few shots and then destroy you anyway. All things being equal then you begin to look at things like size and weight, natural ability. Some people have it, some don't. Grappling has no advantage over the striking arts for being easier to learn. You want easy to learn, take up boxing.
Ultimately you are just making a lot of rookie mistakes in your assumptions. Grappling has its place. I have always studied striking arts, until a few months ago anyway, but my prefered method for fighting is to get someone on the ground and pound the crap out of them, it works most of the time because I am a big guy, but my wrestling buddy manhandles me everytime, even being about 30lbs lighter then I am!
If your smart your going to listen to some of these guys and pay attention to what they have to say, take MP for example, there is no better example on this forum that I know of, of someone who is out there testing his skill and ability everyday.

[ShaolinTiger00]

what are you going to do when we hit the ground and I pull out my blade?

Your chance of surviving, either standing or on the ground, is going to be based on GETTING CONTROL OF THAT KNIFE ARM and either striking or getting a control hold (Kimura, Americana, Arm bar) what have you. Guess what? You are by definition in a grappling fight. You may get cut, no matter what your strategy, but you can keep going. The knifer will try to close range.

If you think a knife is YOUR best defense on the ground, bear in mind that arriving officers / county attorneys / juries / judges WILL see the guy who used a knife against an unarmed man on the street as wrong, despite the circumstances. you steely-mercenary-of-death-tactical-folder-carrying-camoflage-wearing-army-surplus-store-haunting-thousand-meter-stare-wannabe-killer, you.

"On Saturdays, I train with Pikita-Tsirtsa (sp?) fighters. (For those unfamiliar with the style, it is the MMa/Vale-Tudo of the knife & stickfighting world.) When training, we use folding training blades; when we grapple, we conceal them on our person as we normally would...and can pull them at any time. Here's the way it goes: The only safe time to pull a blade is when you have achieved back mount or mount; and if you think you can do that without BJJ or wrestling experience you = fool. Pull a blade in the guard = submission 9 out of 10 times...even with HIGHLY skilled knife-fighters. You feed the kimura, omo-plata and to a lesser extend the guillotine. We have found that even if you have side control or knee-on-stomach going for the blade results in your opponent escaping LONG before you finish the draw. Try it. You'll find that Lancifer is correct, and the only reason you think differently is inexperience, ignorance, and the most annoying of TMA traditions: unfounded "you-do-that-I-do-this" postulations."

[yenhoi]

i think i could deploy my knife and use it in most situations. but i train to, and its not easy without much practice.

;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

I find it .. amusing.. to believe the fantasy that striking is an effective way to stop grappling. it is not. It must be combined with grappling to be effective.

Let's look at sanshou. classic example. (rules say me striker. me no want opposition to take me down. me have kicks and punches. me have shoots, sprawls clinches throws & takedowns. me ready to fight.)

I attack. I strike to close the gap safely, and then enter the clinch, looking for a single leg.

His defense? He also striker to protect the gap, but after clinching is aware of my motives to off balance him. he will almost always respond with a sprawl, then attempt to strike if that is an option.

I shoot again this time for a double leg (what the hey..) He pops me in the head as my head goes to his side. Will that stop me from dumping him? Hell no! Let's cut this magic one -punch knockout, one strike ends fights bull. it doesn't happen that way.
Getting a grazing punch on a grappler who is a mean mass in motion will not end the fight in most situations. (yeah its happened before but you should be thinking pragmatic and not idealistic)

Striking can be a very good way to stop other strikers and most people on the street fit into this category if they stand toe to toe with you (Is that you John Wayne?) but against a purposeful grappler, more is needed.

[yenhoi]

Yeah, but, what if he hits you twice with his fists and three times with elbows before his balance is disrupted?



:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

Consider the reality of a fight. Rare are the case of two guys bent on fighting standing 15 feet apart with no obstacle in the way. (That reminds me of those great samurai movies w/long grass blowing in the wind), where you as a striker have the ability to keep moving and keep fighting at your preferred range. More likely you will be much closer and starts off with a grab on your shoulder, a push, a face to face stare etc. (see "macho") or once you have walked into a confined area, vacant parking lot etc. The time you will have to strike and stun an opponent will be much less and must be an "automatic" response.

Without this reflex conditioning you've just put yourself about 1/2 a second from a jacket grab, a bull rush, a football tackle, a "hockey jersey" pull or a bearhug or his own pugilistic skills (maybe he's a martial artist, maybe he gets in lots of fights!) The striking range is quickly gapped and control must be regained to get out of this situation as quickly as possible.

[red5angel]

ST- do you have any more information on this - "Pikita-Tsirtsa "?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I was not the author of that statement, and the reason it was in quotes.

Pakita?

[ewallace]

It's Pekiti-Tirsia.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Thank you Sir.

a website = link (http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/)

A system of Kali.

[Brad Souders]

LMAO WTF this discussion is still going on.

First off i weigh 135 pounds when i'm wet. I've beaten guys who weigh 270-280 on a constant average. And i've lost to guys my own weight U should know better. The smarter fighter is always the better fighter. Amazing how whenever a discussion between striking vs grappler someone always pulls out the WELL I'D PULL OUT MY KNIFE. LOL well thats good but thats not the topic here. Futhermore when you are fighting a knife empty hand its stupid to use straight striking against it. What disarms do you do. Kick the knife out of his hand. Well you 1/100 chances of the knife getting knocked out and 99/100 to get your leg back with a gash in it. Whether you strike or grapple with a knife your gonna get cut. But i bet when your doing your weapons disarms u use wristlocks and armbars on the feet. Well guess what that's standing "grappling". So u should ban all of those techniques since grappling is ****ty. I feel if people don't wanna train grappling cause they are confident they could never trip over something in a street fight, or someone could take them down then who am i to say anything.

Here is our time line here

Birth of Black Jesus-----------------------This threads topic-------------1993 the first UFC-----------------Maurice Smith KOs conan------------------------------------------------------------------------Present Day

[Oso]

ST00, nuttin honey. ;)

Just amazed that you hadn't responded to
this thread yet, and you hadn't posted in a while and supposing
that maybe you had decided to spawn an alter ego. :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

I have never had an alter ego and would never to desire to do so.
That's the genius of real trolling, You know who a guy is, You know what he's about, You know what he says is a loaded... but you just can't help replying to his inflaming posts. - you're hooked.

:)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Brad Souders


First off i weigh 135 pounds when i'm wet. I've beaten guys who weigh 270-280 on a constant average. Amazing how whenever a discussion between striking vs grappler someone always pulls out the WELL I'D PULL OUT MY KNIFE.

Yeah, right. Like some tiny 135 lb guy is going to put me in a little subeemeession. No fricking way. I've had guys try that and I just power out of them.

As far as the knife. At least with striking you can run when I pull my blade. If you take me to the ground and I pull it, you're mine, baby.

[ShaolinTiger00]

you're mine, baby.

You'll hear this phrase often from prison if you kill an unarmed man. While it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, better still is to survive the 3 battlefields: Physical, Legal, and Psychological, in that order. Unless you want to perfect your knife technique against your cell mate and his 5 friends over the next 7 years.

People who attack you with a knife typically don't attack Olympic track and field medallists, who are already laced up in their Nikes, at one end of a running track. They will probably try to corner or pin you in so escape is not easy. You may be wearing shoes that are hard to run in. You may be on a slippery wet or icy surface. You may not be a good runner. You may be injured or out of breath. Your attacker may be a better runner than you are. You may be with someone you don't want to leave behind (e.g., your child, wife, or girlfriend) after you yell, "Feets, Do Your Stuff!" and make like a gazelle. In short, you may have to stay and fight.

and if this occurs grappling with the knife wielder will be the best choice for survival. and as said before "Your chance of surviving, either standing or on the ground, is going to be based on GETTING CONTROL OF THAT KNIFE ARM and either striking or getting a control hold."

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
You'll hear this phrase often from prison if you kill an unarmed man.

People who attack you with a knife typically don't attack Olympic track and field medallists, who are already laced up in their Nikes, at one end of a running track.

Let's see... a well-trained grappler takes me down into his realm and puts me in a choke hold (attempted murder or manslaughter) or tries to break my arm or leg (mayhem). You'd better believe I have the right of self-defense if I shank him. The one going to prison will probably be him if he survives.

At least the guy who is standing has a chance to run when the knife is drawn. The guy who ties up is toast.

[ShaolinTiger00]

but to the court who sees two "martial artists"- veritable man-at-arms in their eyes, hears a tale of a man taking you down to the ground and "restraining" you not killing you (he's a trained man)and certainly not using a weapon, while you another skilled man pull out a weapon and stab this man viciously and with no warning when you could have threatened him, then wounded him in order to remove yourself from the situation. You've just showed excessive force, assault w/ a weapon and manslaughter.
possible intent if you can't give a good reason why you're carrying a knife. (Wait till the lawyers find out you actually train to kill with knifefighting!!)

The Law does not like martial artists. He was unarmed, you weren't and you didn't give him an opporitunity to escape without taking his life. no matter how you plea that it will make you out to be a killer not a victim.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, but if I'm not trained, carrying a knife that I use as part of my job and is legal to carry... he's a skilled grappler who takes me down and starts to choke me... I panic and flail with my knife... pure self defense.

The law looks harshly on attempting to choke someone.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not just pulling these things from my butt. I went to a seminar taught by Kelly McCann on weapons and the law.

Unless you're in your home, don't carry a weapon. If you do carry & pull a weapon, you'd better be surrounded, or facing weapons yourself because the courts and jury will see anything less as premeditated and ruthless. Lawyers will make you look like a trained killer, carrying delusions of carving up a guy, purposefully looking for trouble. statistics will be brought in about armed criminals, your background,

back to grappling. First, I'f I were you I'd have pulled that knife way earlier to prevent any trouble.

A research project designed to determine the frequency with which police officers are forced to the ground by attackers. interviewed 1400 LEO's.

60% of them were taken to the ground. These are law enforcers! these are guys with guns, clubs, mace and a badge.

A majority of attacks reported in the study involved the suspect pushing the officer to the ground (28 percent), pulling the officer to the ground (33 percent), or tackling the officer to the ground (24 percent). The study revealed that once the attacker forced the officer to the ground, the attacker continued assaulting the officer on the ground 64 percent of the time, followed by fleeing only 31 percent, with 5 percent of the attackers reportedly waiting for the officer to get up to continue the fight.

Of the assaults on officers reported in the study, 21 percent of attackers attempted to disarm the officer. Of those, 5 percent were successful in removing the officer's weapon. Similarly disturbing in the FBI study, of 594 law enforcement officers killed between 1992 and 2001, 46 were killed with their own weapon.

Once attacked and forced to the ground by a suspect, responding officers reported that the threat was countered with non-lethal use of force options 95 percent of the time. While there were obviously scenarios related in the study that had the officer responding with a variety, of escalation and de-escalation of force options, the sole use of personal weapons (feet, hands, holds, etc.) by officers was reported at 24 percent.

Officers who had available to them, and chose to use, intermediate weapons such as OC spray and impact weapons did so 29 percent and 26 percent of the time, respectively. Of the impact weapons used, most were standard and expandable straight batons. Variations that were reported included 4 uses of 'flex batons' (nunchaku), 3 uses of our police radio, 1 use of keys and 1 use of a sap.

When asked about firearm usage by the officer, respondents cited 13 uses of a firearm to counter the attack, with three suspect fatalities. This reported usage of a firearm indicates that less than 1 percent of attacks involved the use of lethal force via firearm.

Under the laws Martial Artists are under the same watchful eye as LEO's for "excessive force" and you can see that LEO's although under severe stress used lethal force on 5% of the time.

In a court, criminals carry weapons.

[ShaolinTiger00]

legal to carry

Its legal to carry a 6" blade in most states but take a 6" fixed blade and a buck knife into a court and tell me which one is more appealing to a self defense plea.

[yenhoi]

I just scored a pair of cop nunchaku(new!). Best nunchaku I have ever found. :D

:D

[Lao_Peng_You]

A friend's brother at age 16 went to a guy's house in order to fight. when he arrived, the kid's dad was waiting for him with a baseball bat, and proceeded to beat my friend's brother. The brother pulled a pocket knife out in desperation and stabbed the father, killing him. He was tried and convicted of 2nd degree murder as a minor and served 10 years of a 15 year sentence. You can draw your own conclusions regarding carrying a knife and intent in a fight. On the other hand, the brother got 10 years, the other guy got life.

[yenhoi]

Run. Run before the fight, or run after. Run.


:D

[Brad Souders]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


Yeah, right. Like some tiny 135 lb guy is going to put me in a little subeemeession. No fricking way. I've had guys try that and I just power out of them.

As far as the knife. At least with striking you can run when I pull my blade. If you take me to the ground and I pull it, you're mine, baby.

LMAO. I tell u what if your are not trolling. Cause if your not do me a favor. Take 135 weight. And then lay your arm over the edge of bench. Then take a friend and have them push down on the arm. Now see if you can push it up before your elbow pops out. But of course cause u can out power 135 pounds of resisting with one arm that so realistic. And if we are on the ground and u start to pull out your knife, ummm i'll be sure to hand you your eyes back.

[KnightSabre]

LMAO

Knifefighter is playing you guys,he is a grappler.

[Brad Souders]

hehe ummm maybe u should read my first couple posts.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


Yeah, right. Like some tiny 135 lb guy is going to put me in a little subeemeession. No fricking way. I've had guys try that and I just power out of them.


Ok, this is trolling at its finest. Both ST00 (http://home.earthlink.net/~drhchan/STGorgeoussmall.JPG) and Knifefighter (http://fitech3000.tripod.com/triangle.jpg) are playing this game to the fullest.

Not only is knifefighter an ardent grappler , he is also, as he so eloquently put it, "a tiny 135 lb guy". Reverse psychology is cool. :D

You wonder if these two aren't AIMing in the background plotting what to say next.

:rolleyes:

[Brad Souders]

Man i get no trolling love here

[KnightSabre]

Knifefighter,

You are a bad man :)

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
but to the court who sees two "martial artists"- veritable man-at-arms in their eyes, hears a tale of a man taking you down to the ground and "restraining" you not killing you (he's a trained man)and certainly not using a weapon, while you another skilled man pull out a weapon and stab this man viciously and with no warning when you could have threatened him, then wounded him in order to remove yourself from the situation.


Any good lawyer worth a **** would object to this since the intent of the assailant(grappler)could not be known by the victim(knife weilding viking) at the time of the attack. As far as the victim knew he was in a fight for his life and a giant stack of case studies will show choking can kill. Its not the most stable defense but also the lawyer could argue that the fact that both persons in question were martial artists is moot since A) neither party knew the others credentials (unless you annouced it, thats another story) B) By this logic, The intital attacker being a MAists would justify an even greater risk to life and limb and thus justify a great need for deadly force.

The burden here is to show who is the victim and who is the assailant. It could go either way. Witness testimony and the circumstances leading to the altercation will be more important to such a case. Being trained as a MAist or a knife fighter is seen as being trained as a marksman. If this was a gun issue it would boil down to wether or not the shooting was justified not if the guy was a trained expert shot.

[Oso]

As I understand it, the key element is your impression or feeling
of the threat level. If caught up in a situation like this in court
you must maintain that you were in continuous fear for your
life.

This is from the first draft of a book a friend of mine is writing
that pertains to NC law specifically and an article in JAMA last
year.