Tell me i'm wrong!

[Colin]

Hi,
I got an email from these people.

The Martial arts Industry Association

URL http://www.masuccess.com/about.htm

I couldn't find any information about martial arts, only info about how to get more money out of your students.

Now the McKwoon & Mcdojo guys have their own association!

It's pretty sad that the arts have degenerated to this level, don't you think?

Colin..............

[red5angel]

"Now the McKwoon & Mcdojo guys have their own association!"


Uh, and this has changed how again?

[Chang Style Novice]

You, sir, are WRONG!

(feel better now?)

[SifuAbel]

It is a business after all. Regardless of how good or bad the instructor is, the rent still needs to get paid. If you sift through all the stuff they suggest for the classroom(which is Karate Biased stuff BTW), and the money schemes, you get sound advice on more abstract matters such as advertising, staff managment, student relations and other topics that are of paramount importance in running a good school. All schools can benefit from this. You don't HAVE to be a Mcdojo to run a good school or get benefits from reading this magazine.

[StarBoy]

It's pretty sad that the arts have degenerated to this level, don't you think?

Yeah, this is pretty bad. I mean, I'm really suspicious of all the MA franchise schools, but this is just blunt.

Apparently for some instructors, the quality of instruction does not speak enough for itself that they need marketing gimicks.

[SifuAbel]

Thats not accurate. Marketing is needed first, if people don't walk in the door they won't know what quality you have to offer. And even if you are the better instructor, its marketing that will get people in your competitors place BEFORE yours. They will have no idea you exist without marketing. Good business is not the enemy here, bad martial arts is.

[norther practitioner]

I have to say I agree with Sifu Abel on this one. If noone knows you are there, how can you be rocongnized. It also balances to not overextending yourself in your school too.

[GeneChing]

There's nothing wrong with a franchise if it's a good franchise. In fact, it can deliver a better service than an independant in some ways.

The business of martial arts is tough. Everyone who makes it in this field is self-made. We've all had to learn everything the hard way. Running a school can be really challenging. The MA business marketers provide an interesting service, very valuable to any school owner. A great master is often undone by lousy business practice while a mediocre master may succeed with better business. It's not fair but it is the way it is. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water - not all franchising like this is a bad thing. It can help the good master with bad business skills just as much as the bad master.

[TaoBoy]

Colin - you are wrong. :D


SifuAbel is correct (amazing isn't it!). ;)
Marketing is required to get people through the door. But the marketing must be accurate and the teachings thorough. Simple.

[StarBoy]

I disagree. And Gene, I'm surprised to hear you say that after all you spoke out against amazon.com

A lot of people are not all that intelligent. Do you know where all the money is at in MA? It isn't with the good instructors, it's at all the TKD and Karate franchises. I'm not saying the instructors at a TKD and Karate franchise are all lousy, but they aren't necessarily the best, just the "popular thing" right now. There's a couple big TKD franchises where I'm living now. I checked out some of the schools for the hell of it. Structurally, they are the nicest schools I've seen. They were clean, well lit, lots of room, and had plenty of mirrors. I observed quite a few classes (different levels) at various franchises. I've never seen the dojo's "Sensei" teach a class. It's always one of the black belt students. They do a little circut training or light cardio to warm up and then start practicing techiniques. These "black belt" students were clueless. Their horse stance was sloppy, and their attacks were off-balanced, too wild, and not very strong. I can understand sacrificing control for power, but these "black belts" just didn't have the power. Just in general I saw so much improper form. This was typical at the two franchises that I looked at. Frankly, I think it was TKD watered down for fitness. I took TKD for 6 months before switching styles, and even as a beginner, if I were to be that sloppy, my sensei would throw me into a wall for being so lazy.

I could go on for a while with what I saw, but needless to say it was really really sloppy. However, these two franchises contain the highest grossing MA schools in the area. Why is that?

I think it's because people are not doing their research. A large part of the customer base are either soccer moms finding something to keep junior busy, or some business execs just looking for the quickest way to a black belt so they have something other than their portfolio to brag about. And that's what these francises are providing. Not proficiency in a martial art, but busywork for the kids or a status symbol for a yuppie.

Then there's another aspect of this that I'm surprised has yet to be mentioned. That is what mainstream marketing does to any enterprise. Franchising and marketing will change a lot of MA schools. Instead of focusing on staying true to the art and style, many instructors will focus on developing and maintaining a solid customer base. Whether it's done by watering down a Muay Thai class into cardio-kickboxing, or lowering the standards for belt advancement (I'd love to spar an 8-year-old with a purple belt, or even a 28-year-old who got his/her purple belt in 6 months :rolleyes: ) it's going to have an effect on the art.

I know there will be some instructors out there who will stay true to the art, but marketing and franchising is going to do to the small business MA schools the same thing that any superstore does to the independents. It's going to run them out of town or force them to conform.

But wait, won't people see through the nonsense wishy-washy franchise school and realize the true skill comes through hard work with a proficient instructor?

Not in America. Mainstream Americans generally don't want actual knowledge and to have their mistakes corrected, they just want to be told that they're right. They don't want to be more than mildly challenged to achieve a goal, they want the quick and easy reward, and the false sense of accomplishment that comes with it.

Look at the kind of people that hire personal trainers. There was a really great thread about this a while back about personal trainer horror stories and the kind of things the clients would say or do. Some of you are personal trainers and know what I'm talking about. What percentage of your customers bail out after a short period of time because it's just too much work? The turnover rate with diet and exercise plans is astronomical. People really want to have a great body, but they really don't want to work for it. They want to loose weight. Tell them to use a treadmill for a half an hour a day at a steady jog. They'll get going good for about 5 minutes or less, walk the rest, and then treat themselves to a pint of ice cream for being so "health conscious".

And before I get flamed for that anti-american comment, or see people post "well, I'm not like that", let me reiterate that was addressed towards "mainstream" americans and I said that they "generally" are like this. There are plenty of exceptions, though probably not enough for genuine MA instructors to form a solid customer base.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

staryboy ... while i agree with most of (or even all of) what you said im not sure how it even remotely contridicts anything sifu able said about the importance of good advertising for a school to prosper. if you want to make money teaching the real deal you need to take some lessons off the mcdojos.

[GeneChing]

OK, that's a fair cop. There is a parallel between Amazon and Coke machines at franchised MA schools. Let me rethink my position on this a bit.

After helping to run a school for so many years, I know how hard it is. You got to be there every day and do everything from take roll to fix toilets. So that's why I don't begrudge the coke machines, nor the franchises. The few kingpins of MA franchises, well, that's another story. I never trust a master who doesn't do anything but sit on his butt and have his underlings to the work. I admire the fact that they got into that position of petty dictatorship (the same way I admire the efficiency of the shark as a predator) but it's not who I'd chose to patronize. As for the masters who open a franchise underneath such a kingpin, I have a lot of sympathy. Not only is the start up investment a factor, but the confucian loyalty issue is challenging if they want to leave.

[StarBoy]

So that's why I don't begrudge the coke machines, nor the franchises.

My problem with it is that soda is bad for your health. This isn't to say that you should never drink it, but it's really bad for a sifu to endorse it's usage. If it was something healthy, then I'd think it was a great idea. I'd rather purchase health products through my sifu than anywhere else. But in this case, it's junkfood. It's selling out in my book. I certainly wouldn't train at a place with a soda machine.

[Laughing Cow]

Starboy.

I you want to generate funds you need to sell what people are willing to buy.

To be fair you should offer both and let the students decide which the want.
This, IMO, is not selling out but good business practice.

Now if NO healthy stuff was offered than I would agree with you.

[StarBoy]

I still disagree. I don't think a self-respecting sifu should advocate the use of anything unhealthy.



I you want to generate funds you need to sell what people are willing to buy.


If a school's students are willing to buy soda over water or even a sports drink, then there's something wrong with the school.



To be fair you should offer both and let the students decide which the want.
This, IMO, is not selling out but good business practice.


Good business practice? I'll agree with you there. But I'll never train with a businessman, only an instructor. Don't forget, the sifu is there to teach, not just how to execute a backfist punch, but many ways to take care of one's body. Supporting accessability to Pepsi or snicker's bars is not what a good instructor would do.

Besides, what can an instructor be doing wrong that he or she is so hard up for money? If you're really hurting, raise the tuition a little.

My last sifu charged $120 over 12 weeks. So that's $10 a week per student per class, though actually I think you could go to all the other classes at your level (i.e. if you are in beginning Long Fist, then you can go to any or all of the beginning long fist classes). So let's assume each student goes to a class twice a week. She teaches about 11 different classes over the course of the week, and the average class size is about 20. They are a bit larger in the lower levels and children classes (though she does limit class size), and the classes are smaller in the upper levels. That's 11 x 10 x 20 = $2200 a week. This doesn't include private lessons, nor the classes she teaches at local universities during the daytime. $2200 a week is $8800 a month or $424,000 a year (before taxes and including a one month vacation).

Now, I'll admit, I haven't been involved in real estate in about 2 years now, but I'm absolutely sure that $424,000 (before taxes) a year is more than enough to run a kwoon (taking all expenses into account). And remember, I'm not even taking the university classes and private lessons into consideration.

Frankly, I think $10 a week (or $40 a month) is an extremely great deal, especially considering all classes are taught by the sifu and assisted by her husband. I'm pretty sure he's a master too, but he doesn't talk a lot (language barrier, I believe), he just corrects the students' form and technique.

Compare that $40 a month with your typical $80 a month McDojo, and this school just rocks. It's a really good school too. She regularly gets the students involved in competitions (regional, national, and international). The more skilled students usually go to Beijing or somewhere else overseas once a year or two for an international competition.

Though if she put a soda machine in that place, I'd find a new school in a heartbeat. :p

[joedoe]

Until you have tried to run a school yourself, you cannot really comment on how a school should be run.

Based on your calculations above, (Edit: BTW they are wrong - $2200 per week = $114400 per annum, allowing 1 month holiday it equals $105600 per annum) $400K per annum may not actually be much revenue for a business. Take into consideration rent, cleaning, consumables, insurance, upkeep on the premises, equipment etc. and a large chunk of that $400K gets eaten up. Then if you hire instructors to help you out, even more disappears. Throw in advertising and accounting costs and you may not end up with too much left in your pocket.

I know that my sifu's school does not make that much - he runs 3 classes a week and probably grosses less than $1000 a week. All our instructors are voluntary, and he does not have to pay upkeep on the premises we use, just a small amount of rent per week (maybe $100). After he pays insurance etc. he doesn't really have that much left over. Put it this way - he can't give up his day job yet.

MAs are not as profitable as you might think.

[Laughing Cow]

Starboy.

She can only regulate what happens in her Kwoon.

So if she doesn't sell a Soda, than the guys will get one down the road after the lesson.

As you said her Job is to teach MA , not be your nutritional watch-dog.

My Sifu collects about $450 (if that) a month from student fees.

Agree with Joedoe, the Sifu might make a living but I think the big money is still a long way off.

cheers.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by StarBoy
Besides, what can an instructor be doing wrong that he or she is so hard up for money? If you're really hurting, raise the tuition a little.


Even a little hike in tuition could be prohibitive for some of your students. How fair is that? And this because you have some convictions about carbonated beverages?

[StarBoy]

BTW they are wrong - $2200 per week = $114400 per annum, allowing 1 month holiday it equals $105600 per annum


Crap, you're right, I accidentally turned $8800 a month to $8800 a week.


Until you have tried to run a school yourself, you cannot really comment on how a school should be run.

Um...actually, I can. The financial aspect of a school is run like any other business. If you can run numbers on one business, you can run the numbers on any (granted, I did screw up running the numbers on this school, but it was a rush job anyway). Regardless, it doesn't really matter. The point is she's not having any problems with the school. In fact, she just brought in another instructor recently (I believe to help with Tai Chi). The school is always clean and in good condition.

I don't know what the problem other instructors are having, but this is her day job. And like I said, this isn't taking the outside courses and private lessons into consideration.



She can only regulate what happens in her Kwoon.

So if she doesn't sell a Soda, than the guys will get one down the road after the lesson.

As you said her Job is to teach MA , not be your nutritional watch-dog.


Like I said, I disagree. Let's say some of the students like to get high after a lesson, should she sell some pot too? You're right, she can only controls what happens in her kwoon, and she sets an example that she hopes the student takes outside of the kwoon. As for the nutritional-watchdog bit, a healthy diet is important to any martial artist. It doesn't have to be a responsibility of a sifu to eduacate his or her students on healthy living, but I respect any sifu who takes even a small part of that responsibility.



Even a little hike in tuition could be prohibitive for some of your students. How fair is that? And this because you have some convictions about carbonated beverages?


I'm basing this on the fact that I know many sifu's who don't have a problem running a school while charging reasonable tuition rates. I was merely suggesting that if some school has a problem, then perhaps an increase in tuition would help.

I don't think "convictions" is an appropriate word. It's a fact, carbonated beverages are counterproductive to a martial artist. They actually dehydrate you and contain simple sugars which are not good for the body. A MA instructor should be helping students be the best martial artist they can be. Selling them soda is not going to do that.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by StarBoy


<snip>

Um...actually, I can. The financial aspect of a school is run like any other business. If you can run numbers on one business, you can run the numbers on any (granted, I did screw up running the numbers on this school, but it was a rush job anyway). Regardless, it doesn't really matter. The point is she's not having any problems with the school. In fact, she just brought in another instructor recently (I believe to help with Tai Chi). The school is always clean and in good condition.

I don't know what the problem other instructors are having, but this is her day job. And like I said, this isn't taking the outside courses and private lessons into consideration.

<snip>


I don't know what the situaiton is like in the US, but insurance for a MA school here can be pretty high. Then when you add expenses i.e. rent, cleaning, accountants, advertising etc. you can make a comfortable amount but not much more. Now considering you said her husband helps her out, then it really isn't much if you split the remainder as income between 2 people.

Don't get me wrong - I am glad that your teacher is doing well. Not every MA teacher is able to generate as much demand as she appears to, so the business case is not always so nice.

As for morals & ethics - well, maybe selling soda is a bad thing, but how about a water/sport drink machine? Ultimately the decision is up to the business owner and if it is bad for their image then they will pay for it in the end. If it satisfies a demand then they would be stupid not to. As far as the sifu having a responsibility to advise on diet etc. - only if the student wants to be advised. They have no legal and a questionable moral obligation to care for their student's health.

[StarBoy]

I don't know what the situaiton is like in the US, but insurance for a MA school here can be pretty high.

Are you serious? Insurance has to be more in the US. I can't speak for Australians, but I figure Americans to be way more sue-happy than probably anyone else in the world.

I'm surprised MA instructors even need insurance in Australia. I remember a piece I saw on skateboarding some time ago (back when I was in the scene). There was this huge feature on AU. Skateboarders were hassled a lot less by the cops there because if a skateboarder busted his ass, he couldn't sue. That's why they have many more public skate parks. It's not like that in the US. For the most part, you have to sign a waiver at a skate park. And if you try skating in public, you got to deal with the cops. I would think this philosophy would blanket all "high-risk" industries in the country.

Either way, Americans are way more sue-happy. :D



Don't get me wrong - I am glad that your teacher is doing well. Not every MA teacher is able to generate as much demand as she appears to, so the business case is not always so nice.


You know, I've never even heard of independents (that had good instructors) having financial troubles until this thread, and I've seen quite a few schools in the northeast. Obvioiusly I can't speak for the whole country, but I didn't think there would be that much of a discrepancy.



As for morals & ethics - well, maybe selling soda is a bad thing, but how about a water/sport drink machine?


Morally, it's ok, but financially, it's still a bad idea. I'm assuming that Australia has similar business practices and policies as America with this next bit. In America, any legitimate business has a business license and a tax stamp. This lets the business purchase products from a wholesaler (much cheaper than retail, of course). What a sifu is better off doing is buying a bulk quantity of sports drink or water from a wholesaler, and fronting the cash for an appropriately sized cooler. With the soda/water/whatever machine, the sifu only gets a (usually small) portion of the overhead. Buy buying in bulk from a wholesaler, the sifu pays a much lower unit price, can probably charge double the overhead, and each drink would most likely still cost less than a drink from a soda machine. The initial investment for the cooler would pay itself off pretty quick.

What makes it even better is that because the sifu owns a service and not retail establisment the sifu can finagle around (legally) with the books to constitute the drinks as a business expense rather than a luxury/consumable, which equates to not having to charge sales tax.

And it gets even better than this. Instead of charging $X for a drink, the sifu can "request a $X donation" for a drink. Then it doesn't even become a commodity, but an (not sure if I have this term right, it's been a while) encumbered business expense that can be used as a tax write-off. The only problem with this is that some students might take advantage of this. But any student who does is a jackàss who doesn't support his school and should be promoted to "punching bag". Though in this situation, I'm sure pressure from the sifu, and the more conscientious students can put the greedy student(s) back in check.

Some of my family owns various small business, and we subcontract certain parts of our bookkeeping to an amazing accountant who specializes in this area. :D