4 mantis Mepgs - opinions/impressions?

[BeiTangLang]

Just guessing,.....but it looks to be modern WuShu.
There are a few missing elenents (or added elements,depending on how you look at it) that lead me to this opinion.
Best Wishes to all,
~BTL

[Mr.Binx]

I had posted a question regarding this mantis form but it seems to have been removed. :confused: For safety's sake I won't repost it. I apologize if I inadvertently offended someone with my inquiry.

[Skarbromantis]

Wu shu, thats what it looks like to me.

Skard1

[mantis108]

6 Plum Mantis? ...

With all due respects... Well, of my entire training in Mantis of have never heard of 6 Plum Mantis.

Jiao form - I am not familiar with this so I reserve my comment

kicking form - It looks more like a rendition of 7 Stars PM form. This is also more Changquan or Chaquan like.

Hook form - One of the biggest disappointment. In Plum Flower PM lineages Hook form is an alias of the Luanjie/Lanjie form but this Hook form here has nothing to do with that.

Elbow form - This is not Ba Zhou although there are a few elbow moves in there.

IMHO, he might impress non mantis training background folks with his forms since there are moves that are not alien to Mantis. As far as I am concern, I am sorry to say, he is waving his arms and legs in Wushu way. I am reserve about their claim as Mantis (at best a hybird) as well. But then if they could provide some training drills, applications or 2 men training stuff, it might help prove their claims. I am not even asking for their lineage just show me the drills or appliaction.

Mantis108

[Mr.Binx]

Heh... so my question wasn't crazy. :p But I digress. As an aside, Sifu Jontahan Wang's bio (http://beijingkungfu.com/Instructors/Instructors_Weizhang-Wang.html) (the individual performing in these clips) says that he teaches WuShu as well and appears to have a long history in the sport. The bio doesn't acknowledge any history of Praying Mantis Kung Fu so it is most likely not one of his heavily trained specialties. As always though, I could be wrong.

[carly]

thanks for the insight, gentlemen.

[B.Tunks]

Wushu means martial arts. It is the official cover-all title for martial arts in the standard language of the PRC, but includes all the fighting arts, of all the nations. It is quite simmilar to the japanese term, Budo. I think the term you may be looking for in criticising this mans boxing is 'modern wushu' or 'competitive wushu', which by the way these examples bare only a passing resemblance. Though these sets also do not appear to be particularly traditional/classical or orthodox, I dont think they are prime examples of modern Tanglang routines. They appear more to be some kind of synthesis of various mantis techniques (false or not is up to you, I will not give my opinion).
It looks like Wushu because it is Wushu, just as it could be said to be Guo Shu or Gongfu. And while we're at it, Gongfu doesnt even mean chinese martial arts, it is a southern chinese nickname for martial arts which has crept into popular usage. Before people use a term I think it might be better to have a basic understanding of that term.
B.T

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

My media player doesn't have the codec to view the clips so I can't comment on them yet. His bio mentions 'Tai Chi Sanshou'. That sounds interesting. Probably just Contemporary Wushu rather than traditional arts. Especially coming out of Beijing.

[mantis108]

First off, I do not speak for others. I only speak what is on my mind.

I believe that the term Wushu reflects a certain philosophy and attitude just as Kung Fu reflects a different philosophy and attitude. I personally do not use the terms interchangeably although at times I use them in broad, general and liberal fashion to cover the philosophical implications.

Wushu to me has always been defined as Modern Wushu or Competitive Wushu. It has always been a sport in my mind ever since its worldwide offical introduction in the 80s. It might have come a long way since then to try to reinject the real martial substance into it. But it has always failed to do so in an honorable and respectful manner. This site in question is another outstanding example of that. It simply skipped the truth of its beginning as an sport activity just like the gymnastics. There was nothing martial about it - period. This was clearly conveyed to those people (would be coaches of Wushu) who went to China during the 80s to "receive the sutra" from the Wushu organzation which was still under the tight control by the government. I personally talked to the Canadian contingent then. Wushu routines are just pretty looking movements mimicking fight movement without the martial intent and real martial application. They were meant for shows. That is my understanding since then.

An example from these clips in question would be: he did low kneeling position with a low hook hand while the half of his back side turned towards where his would be target is. It looks impressive. If there is an real application to that and he can pull it off clean even if there is a counter from the opponent (non cooperating partner), I would definitely be interested in founding out more about this "amazing" style called 6 Plum Mantis which is based in the Nanjing GSI's teaching as they claim. As for now, I believe I am looking at a bunch of modern Wushu stuff that is borrowing the good name of Nanjing GSI and the riding on the tail coat of classical Tanglangquan.

This site simply circumvent the whole thing and have an "as a matter of fact" attitude that the martial substance has always been in Modern Wushu since day one of its conception. That is not true. A lot of people still knows the truth. Secondly, it implies that the Nanjing GSI was the "father of the ******* child". Personally, I am very uncomfortable with that implication. Finally, it use the Nanjing GSI curriculum outline to "seamless" add in contemprary Wushu, SanShou (a more recent developement even in Modern Wushu history), and last but not least Chin Na. I am sorry, but Chin Na is a style on its own ever since the origin Nanjing GSI period? Why is there no one from the origin Nanjing GSI claimed that as a style or a special category curriculum until now?

All these just lead me to believe that the dishonorable and disrespectful attitude is acceptable to Modern Wushu as a sport activity. I suspose people who weren't following the history and development closely would be fool by it. But no serious observers and practitioners will ever want to get into this muddy water.

Now having said that we can also find the same dishonorable and disrespectful attitude in Kung Fu folks. Kung Fu means chores hard work, time&effort spended, and the merits of them. The trade is irrelevant. Its all in a honest days after days practice striving for perfection. If people tell me I have good Wushu that means nothing to me (even a bit insulting). If they say you have some Kung Fu, that, my friends is what I have been trying in earnest to achieve. For myself, good or bad, I give credit (or fault) where credit (or fault) deserves and dues. I won't call an orange a tangerine. Eventhough they are fruits, and kind of resemble each other in appearance, the taste is way different.

People can believe in what they want (it's a free world after all), please be my guest. As for myself, I try to see things as they are and call it what they are. I have my reasons, which it could be deemed as baised sometimes, to back up my statements.

Mantis108

PS, I won't trust a government that don't even use proper Chinese full characters to give me its defination of the term Wushu. It doesn't respect civil education, do you honestly think it does better with the martial education?

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 108,

Having said all that, it is still a fact that everything in the mainland is called 'Wushu' and not everything under that umbrella is bull**** (regardless if the 'Tanglang' in those M-pegs was).
Your point is accepted (though I really think you should take it up with the government of China), but I still say it doesn't look like your common everyday garden variety of modern competitive Tanglang routine (Ala Yu Hai or the new standardised routines), more like some kind of a thoughtlessly designed 'hybrid' as you stated in your accurate first assessment.
The matter of the title of martial arts in China is one we can argue about for an eternity, but that would be a pointless waste of time. I get the distinct feeling though, that you think everything coming out of China is complete rubbish, no?
I think it is quite easy to distinguish what is 'real' and what is 'fake' in Chinese Boxing and the line between the two is very clear in China, just as it is in the west.
Anyway, best of luck in your anti-China bashing, you are doing very well so far, ha ha...
All the best,
B.T

[mantis108]

<<<Having said all that, it is still a fact that everything in the mainland is called 'Wushu' and not everything under that umbrella is bull**** (regardless if the 'Tanglang' in those M-pegs was). >>>

I hear you. So while I am not in the mainland, I would prefer to be referred as Kung Fu Lo rather than Wushujia. ;)

<<<Your point is accepted (though I really think you should take it up with the government of China), but I still say it doesn't look like your common everyday garden variety of modern competitive Tanglang routine (Ala Yu Hai or the new standardised routines), more like some kind of a thoughtlessly designed 'hybrid' as you stated in your accurate first assessment.>>>

Glad you see my point. I agree with you on that these routines are not the "common everyday garden variety of modern competitive Tanglang routine" as you adeptly put it. It is one small step away from it.

<<<The matter of the title of martial arts in China is one we can argue about for an eternity, but that would be a pointless waste of time.>>>

Agreed. :)

<<<I get the distinct feeling though, that you think everything coming out of China is complete rubbish, no?>>>

No, not really everything. The cuisines are the best. :P But quite a few things. Do you realized that the Wudang Temple, a thousand year old relic is now in ruins because of the imcompetance and ignorant of the current government? I won't get into that since it's out of topic here. When it comes to Kung Fu, which I love dearly, I think that has suffered quite enough from the ignorant government bureaucrats.

<<<I think it is quite easy to distinguish what is 'real' and what is 'fake' in Chinese Boxing and the line between the two is very clear in China, just as it is in the west.>>>

Well, I hope it is as you observed that there is a clear distinction and people really understood it well. Looking at the info on the site, I am not sure that's the case. You are aware of it I am sure but the others?

<<<Anyway, best of luck in your anti-China bashing, you are doing very well so far, ha ha...>>>

Thank you, my friend. lol... :D I am not anti-China after all I am a Chinese. ;) I am aganist ignorant bureaucrats who runs the shows. :mad:

<<<All the best,>>>

Same to you.

Warm regards,

Robert (Mantis108)

[Brad]

It's not very good modern wushu, if that is what it is.

[B.Tunks]

Hui Sifu,

>I hear you. So while I am not in the mainland, I would prefer to >be referred as Kung Fu Lo rather than Wushujia.

I respect that. Personally I acknowledge either term (though I am neither).


>Glad you see my point. I agree with you on that these routines >are not the "common everyday garden variety of modern >competitive Tanglang routine" as you adeptly put it. It is one >small step away from it.

I agree some movements seem to come from or at least have a little of the flavour of these routines, but agree more with Brad when he says:

'it's not very good modern wushu, if that is what it is.'


<<<I get the distinct feeling though, that you think everything coming out of China is complete rubbish, no?>>>

>No, not really everything. The cuisines are the best. :P But quite >a few things. Do you realized that the Wudang Temple, a >thousand year old relic is now in ruins because of the >imcompetance and ignorant of the current government?

Yes, I know and its a shame. Priorities there certainly are different. Fortunately a lot of the martial arts systems still survive in tact (though of course, a lot have also been lost or corrupted).
I still think that the people and the government are two seperate things though, and so are the people and their arts. I wont go on and on about it here though, as this is a martial forum and I dont think its the right place.

>I won't get into that since it's out of topic here. When it comes >to Kung Fu, which I love dearly, I think that has suffered quite >enough from the ignorant government bureaucrats.

It has suffered just as much (if not more, in some aspects), as the result of capitalism/commercialization in Hong Kong, Taiwan and the West (oops, politics again)!

<<<I think it is quite easy to distinguish what is 'real' and what is 'fake' in Chinese Boxing and the line between the two is very clear in China, just as it is in the west.>>>

>Well, I hope it is as you observed that there is a clear distinction >and people really understood it well. Looking at the info on the >site, I am not sure that's the case. You are aware of it I am sure >but the others?

Yes, thats why people need to keep an open mind and stay well informed.
In my opinion the internet is not always the best source.

>Thank you, my friend. lol... I am not anti-China after all I am a >Chinese. I am aganist ignorant bureaucrats who runs the >shows.

I know you are Chinese and as such, are certainly entitled to such a strong opinion. I think its good that you differentiate these bureacrats and the chinese people as a whole, after all they are your own brothers and sisters.
In an ideal world, I would really love to take you on a trip with me to mainland China (especially Shandong), to give you a look at the state of traditional gongfu/wushu there, to perhaps boost your opinion of the situation. Unfortunately this will never be so. Hopefully one day you will go there yourself and with luck get to experience some of scene outside of the circle of this sporting wushu that you dislike so much. I think you would be very happy indeed!
Anyway, I'm with you on a lot of this, just a little more careful with my words when criticising (as opposed to every other time I have posted, ha ha)...
B.T

[mantis108]

Tunks Sifu,

<<<>I hear you. So while I am not in the mainland, I would prefer to >be referred as Kung Fu Lo rather than Wushujia.

I respect that. Personally I acknowledge either term (though I am neither).>>>

Thanks. I respect whatever term you prefer to be addressed as well.

<<<>Glad you see my point. I agree with you on that these routines >are not the "common everyday garden variety of modern >competitive Tanglang routine" as you adeptly put it. It is one >small step away from it.

I agree some movements seem to come from or at least have a little of the flavour of these routines, but agree more with Brad when he says:

'it's not very good modern wushu, if that is what it is.'>>>

I have seen plenty of modern wushu and I agreed with you both on that count.


<<<I get the distinct feeling though, that you think everything coming out of China is complete rubbish, no?>>>

>No, not really everything. The cuisines are the best. :P But quite >a few things. Do you realized that the Wudang Temple, a >thousand year old relic is now in ruins because of the >imcompetance and ignorant of the current government?

Yes, I know and its a shame. Priorities there certainly are different. Fortunately a lot of the martial arts systems still survive in tact (though of course, a lot have also been lost or corrupted).
I still think that the people and the government are two seperate things though, and so are the people and their arts. I wont go on and on about it here though, as this is a martial forum and I dont think its the right place.>>>

Agreed.

<<<>I won't get into that since it's out of topic here. When it comes >to Kung Fu, which I love dearly, I think that has suffered quite >enough from the ignorant government bureaucrats.

It has suffered just as much (if not more, in some aspects), as the result of capitalism/commercialization in Hong Kong, Taiwan and the West (oops, politics again)!>>>

LOL, that's very true. :)

<<<I think it is quite easy to distinguish what is 'real' and what is 'fake' in Chinese Boxing and the line between the two is very clear in China, just as it is in the west.>>>

>Well, I hope it is as you observed that there is a clear distinction >and people really understood it well. Looking at the info on the >site, I am not sure that's the case. You are aware of it I am sure >but the others?

Yes, thats why people need to keep an open mind and stay well informed.
In my opinion the internet is not always the best source.>>>

Agreed.

<<<>Thank you, my friend. lol... I am not anti-China after all I am a >Chinese. I am aganist ignorant bureaucrats who runs the >shows.

I know you are Chinese and as such, are certainly entitled to such a strong opinion. I think its good that you differentiate these bureacrats and the chinese people as a whole, after all they are your own brothers and sisters. >>>

Thanks for the understanding. :)

<<<In an ideal world, I would really love to take you on a trip with me to mainland China (especially Shandong), to give you a look at the state of traditional gongfu/wushu there, to perhaps boost your opinion of the situation. Unfortunately this will never be so. >>>

Well, thank you kindly for the thought. I really appreciate that. I think that the old saying "never say never" would apply. To me it's a wonderful idea to have you and a guide and companion on the Kung Fu trail(or Wushu trail just for the political correctness) ;) [also pun intended].

<<<Hopefully one day you will go there yourself and with luck get to experience some of scene outside of the circle of this sporting wushu that you dislike so much. I think you would be very happy indeed!>>>

Thanks, I look forward for the oppotunity.

<<Anyway, I'm with you on a lot of this, just a little more careful with my words when criticising (as opposed to every other time I have posted, ha ha)...>>>

Glad that we have some consensus. Well, I think you are just as passionate about these subjects as I am. Your criticism is not without grounds. So no foul no harm. But then I hope you would see that I as well as others don't criticize without grounds neither on these matters as well.

Also I would like to add that I respect others rights and dedication to whatever that they strive at. Whether it is Wushu, Modern Wushu, or Kung Fu, just have fun and be the best you can be. I expressed my views just for the record. I don't mean to undermind anyone's practice at all. I apologize if I happen to come off that way.

Warm regards

Robert Hui