Someone please clear this up for me...?

[straight blast]

After having a look at several threads on the board I noticed a lot of disagreement about schools franchising. Even to the degree of someone saying this:
A lot of people are not all that intelligent. Do you know where all the money is at in MA? It isn't with the good instructors,

So level it for me. I take it to be a good instructor you've got to be a little Mr Miyagi clone and only teach from the backyard? If I decide to open a martial arts center and give my students the best possible training equipment, environment, 1st aid, and hands on teaching am I somehow a "lesser" martial artist because I run it as a business? I have trained in about 3 of these backyard/school hall/surf club on weekend places and while it was fun it has nothing compared to the place I train now, which is fully equipped to cater to all my training needs.

This is a half rant, half serious question. Why is it that the image of the business martial artist is lumped with the McDojo people? Are we really that big a victim of 60's-90's martial arts movies where the little old man teaches the single backyard student to defeat the entire evil commercial martial art school? Is there a reason for this dislike of turning your love into something you do for a living as well other than the desire to conform to a Hollywood eastern stereotype?

You tell me! :confused:

[Laughing Cow]

SB.

I trained at both places and prefer the backyard type kwoons.

A fixed venue, good equipment, etc for me is creature comfort, not a reflection of the skill of the Sifu nor the level of quality of training I get.
Someone has to pay for the creature comfort and maintain it.
And thus, I fell that the focus of the Sifu is no longer 100% on the teaching.
Having a well equipped Kwoon for me is a show of his skill as a business-man not as a Sifu.

The lower end "Kwoon" that train in a school gym or a Park attract, IMO, a different crowd than the "creature comfort" places.
Those tend to be smaller and on average I feel more dedicated to their studies.

Either one gathers for a different group of students, same with Gyms, etc.

Naturally some style can't do without a fixed venue due to the need for certain trainings gear like wooden Dummies, other like TJQ hardly use equipment and can be taught/practiced anywhere.

Of course I generalised here, but this is how I feel.

[SaMantis]

The size of the school doesn't matter. The dedication of the student(s) to their training and the dedication of the sifu to his/her students is what matters.

I started KF at a large school (30-50 people in each beginners class). The class sizes decreased as I progressed - only about 1/3 of those who started the same time as me appeared in the intermediate classes.

A friend of mine teaches in his backyard, and he has 2 excellent students. He also leads a KF club at the nearby college, starts with 10-15 people every semester and by the end of the semester he's down to those same 2 students.

Dedication, that's all it's about.

Just my humble opinion.

[Laughing Cow]

Agreed about the "dedication" bit.

Never studied at a Kwoon that had Seminars so I can't say about that type of teaching and the rate of dropouts in that environment.

IME, the smaller/backyard places tend to seperate the chaff rom the wheat a lot quicker than than the bigger places.

Just the way I see it.

[StarBoy]

So level it for me.

Did you even read the whole post? I didn't say every franchise school was like that, I am saying this is the general trend in franchise MA schools. I've seen franchise schools all across the Northeast and I'm sorry, but from what I've seen, most (not all, but most) of these schools are run poorly and the classes are taught by black belts that must have been rushed through the program.

And I'm not advocating only "backyard" schools either.

It's all personal preference. I'll never go to a school where the classes are taught by the sensei or sifu's lackeys. Why should I settle? I could pay $80-100 a month to take classes at a franchise school where I'm getting taught by one of the other students, or I can pay the same thing and get taught by the actual sifu, who is loyal to their one school.

Loyalty to a school is a two way street. I'm not going to waste my time and loyalty on an instructor who is spreading his attention across 2 or more schools.

And now for what I'm sure will be interpreted as a personal attack:


am I somehow a "lesser" martial artist because I run it as a business?

Yes, in my opinion you are. There are plenty of serious martial artists who share this opinion too. All of the instructors that I had and respected did have nice, properly equipped facilities. Furthermore, they just had the one school. They lived well enough off it too.


Why is it that the image of the business martial artist is lumped with the McDojo people?

Because it's the same thing. You are no longer an educator, you're a businessman. This isn't to say that you can't start a school and charge people for classes, but if you own 7 school in the Tri-county area (or even 2 or 3), you're not an instructor, you're a manager. And that's fine if you're doing some Tae Bo or Cardio-Karate (that's just exercise), but a real martial art, some people have higher standards.

What kind of alleged MA instructor are you anyway? You either didn't read the whole post, or just didn't understand it. Then you start spouting off about Mr. Miyagi? What is up with that? Like I say, sloppy sloppy...Temper, temper, sensei. :rolleyes:

You're American, aren't you? Thinking about the business...the money...the "bling bling" if you will. :p

[Laughing Cow]

StraightBlast.

How would you say that the following differ:


Business martial artist & the McDojo people

How do we seperate them?

Both sell MA for bucks at multiple locations.

[Goldenmane]

Here's a thought:

Has anybody out there ever come across a school that was set up by a student, as a business, and the instructor "hired"?

What I mean is, if the objection to well-eqipped "business-run" schools is that the instructor/sifu/sensei should be "entirely focussed on the training"... would it be bad if one of the students set up the school?

If, say, I have an instructor who is a "backyard" style instructor, who is so focussed on the training that he doesn't have the time to pursue it as a business, then I could set up a school myself, so the instructor has somewhere he can teach, that is well equipped, and where the business side of things is all dealt with for him. Of course, it would also mean that I would have somewhere I could train anytime I wanted to, with and under the teacher I really desire to learn from.

Hell, if I was rich I could run it at a loss and not care, use it as a tax-break thingy or something.

"Sifu, I have a kwoon, but no-one to teach there. Would you do me the honour?"

:D

-geoff

[Laughing Cow]

Goldenmane.

I have come across similar places.

In most cases the place was owned by 1 Sifu who rented it out during quiet times to other Sifu that taught other styles.

Cheers.

[straight blast]

Starboy...

Apparently we are coming at this from different points. I am not talking about an instructor who teaches at several different franchised schools. I am talking about a student who spends 13 years with his Sifu (like mine did) and then moves to a different part of the country and offers the same martial art there, while still faithfully returning to his Sifu's state to train several times a year. By the logic (or lack thereof :rolleyes: ) espoused in previous posts he is less of a martial artist because he trains people for a living in a well set up environment? Doesn't make a great deal of sense.

I will give you the instructor teaching across multiple schools though. Such an individual is unable to focus properly on one school.


You're American, aren't you? Thinking about the business...the money...the "bling bling" if you will.

Next time you attempt to make a personal post perhaps it would be prudent to check the details. On the top left of my post, just under my avatar there is a field that says "Location". If you read on you will see that I am not from America. Indeed, you could delve even deeper by looking into my profile and finding information of a similar bent.

LaughingCow...

"How do we seperate them?

Both sell MA for bucks at multiple locations"

Thank you for asking. My Instructor is a business Martial Artist. He teaches at one location. Not multiples. All he does outside of teaching martial arts is train martial arts and surf. I am at a loss how his dedication to his art could make him a McDojo teacher? Perhaps teaching eight hours a day isn't the "way of the Tao" or what have you.

Oh Starboy...I almost forgot.


What kind of alleged MA instructor are you anyway? You either didn't read the whole post, or just didn't understand it

At no point did I say that I was a martial art instructor. Perhaps you either didn't read the whole post, or just didn't understand it :rolleyes:

I guess the fact that I have actually worked managing a business and have been living on the poverty line once or twice has taken away my starry-eyed view of the nobility of poverty.

The joys of intellectual debate...:rolleyes:

[Laughing Cow]

Straightblast.

What you are saying is that the difference is the level of MA taught.

Pardon, my ignorance here.
But who are his students on weekdays during working hours??

Most people will be at the Office trying to earn a buck.

I used to work shifts and enjoyed watching the soccer-moms doing their aerobic & pseudo MA bit at 10:00am while doing weights and cardio.

Overheads for a kwoon must be high when not enough students are there to train.

Just curious.

[neito]

i personally do not like to train at commercial schools. but, plenty of people do. thus, it supplies a service which there is demand for. i prefer the non-profit type however because it allows the sifu to choose who may join without worrying about loosing profits. also i would rather be a "member" than a "customer". the kwoon where i now study is very well equiped and has small class size (approx 5 people). they are very good with their money and the tuition is not any more than most clubs that just rent a bare room somewhere. i enjoy the family type atmosphere, especially how they don't hound me for money and just let me remember on my own to pay up. definatly the right kind of place for me.

[Fred Sanford]

If you want to train at a commercial school there is nothing wrong with that. In fact when you first start out in the martial arts you don't have that many resources it's usually either the phone book, a friends recommendation or just plain chance.

Put down commercial schools all you want. Though I guarantee the good schools mark the people that have potential the moment they walk in the door, commercial or not.

DO YOU HAVE IT OR DON"T YOU? that is the big question. who cares how yang lu chan executed his form. Are you worth a **** as a martial artist or not? Can you actually fight using what you know? push hands and chi sau don't count, can't you scrap or not? that is the question. Are you a ***** assed mofo hiding behind past accomplishments? who cares what master x knows, how good are YOU? that is what matters.

[iron_silk]

Leung Ting

from HK and big empire now

and he seems to really dislike backyard instructors...

I think not so much he dislike backyard instructors particularily but that he was personally thinking of certain instructors he really really hated and disliked that he would use the term "backyard" to describe them...which I guess shows of how he connects bad with "backyard"

I read it in an article on this website right? I am writing this from memory and being really sleepy...any thoughts?

[StarBoy]

First of all, when I said:



What kind of alleged MA instructor are you anyway?


I was referring to:


If I decide to open a martial arts center and give my students the best possible training equipment, environment, 1st aid, and hands on teaching am I somehow a "lesser" martial artist because I run it as a business?

And when you started the thread, you were referring to the thread talking about franchise schools. As in multiple schools under one master.



I guess the fact that I have actually worked managing a business and have been living on the poverty line once or twice has taken away my starry-eyed view of the nobility of poverty.


Fine, sell out. I really don't care.



If you want to train at a commercial school there is nothing wrong with that. In fact when you first start out in the martial arts you don't have that many resources it's usually either the phone book, a friends recommendation or just plain chance.


This goes back to the loyalty to one school, and having some common sense.

I'm not saying that the franchise schools don't have their place. Their perfectly ok if martial arts is just a minor hobby or you don't care about learning a complete art. Maybe, just maybe, you'll end up at a franchise school where you have a great instructor that knows what he's doing. But I doubt it, and I'd never gamble with my education like that. :rolleyes:

[Surferdude]

I think some of the schools just want money, like a school by me.
There the "black belts"(If thats what you want to call them)
are horrible, They cant even do a good 50 push ups!!!!!
I've seen a class and when they practice their self defense they suck, can't even take somone down right!!!!
Those dudes are in it for the money cuz they know they can do it and dont care about the student.

[red5angel]

I have been too a very good school that has gone commercial. however, What I have found is that they do have larger classes, and it is hit or miss if the instructors really know as much as they should.

[SaMantis]

I agree that both franchised schools and backyard instructors have their good and bad sides. In BOTH cases quality will suffer if standards aren't upheld by the sifu and/or his instructors.

As far as McDojo vs. business, there IS a difference. Allow me to illustrate:

McDojo Instructor: "Hurry and learn your form, the next test is in two weeks! You won't make black belt unless you test every three months! If you REALLY want to learn that form well, attend the next seminar, it's only $500."

"Business" sifu: "You're not ready to test yet. Go practice."

The difference being that students aren't pushed to advance to the next item (i.e. belt test) that will make money for the school; they're encouraged to move at a pace that will improve their skill, not necessarily the size of the sifu's wallet.

This is an idealized example, but if a sifu recognizes the difference between marketing and quality instruction, then he/she can train excellent students AND pay the bills. It's a balance.

[Leto]

maybe a little off topic...but someone earlier mentioned a student starting up a school and then hiring a teacher. That idea is in line with the advice of the 'Bubishi', which says that when a good teacher is found the students should provide a proper place for him (or her) to teach. The quality of the school, therefore, should be a reflection of the student's loyalty and appreciation of the teacher. Even if the students are not rich, they would strive to have something, some place where a teacher could instruct them...and they would tend to it as though it were a part of their own home. They would honor the teacher this way, and show their appreciation and dedication to learning by providing for the teacher as best they could.

In modern American culture, this is almost reversed. Money is the only thing worth anything to many people, thus we consider the paying of money to be the ultimate sacrifice. I have given you some money, now I expect something in return. Clever businesspeople can take advantage of this mentality, and do, in the martial arts field...this is how we have the 'McDojo', 'black belt factories', places where people accept signing a contract to reach a belt in a predetermined amount of time. The 'belt' is what people are expecting to receive for their ultimate sacrifice of several hundred (or thousand) dollars. Work? Time? Effort? Practice? Those are good ways to get in shape, but not what was payed for.

The students get the teachers they deserve, in other words. Or they get the teacher they are ready for. This is NOT an excuse for con-artists and phonies, I believe what they are doing is morally wrong. But I also believe that there are 'real' martial artists, with 'real' skills, who have decided to make a living teaching. And due to the nature of our society, it is not always possible to do that without 'selling out' to some extent.

"...If the teacher is not respected,
And the student not cared for,
Confusion will arise, however clever one is.
This is the crux of mystery." -Tao Te Ching, chapter 27

[norther practitioner]

I fell that the focus of the Sifu is no longer 100% on the teaching.

Two edged sword.... the one teaching out of his backyard can't commit 100% either (unless they are independently wealthy and retired). How do they keep that space, working, maybe a 9-5, my shirfus 9-5 just so happens to be the guan.

[straight blast]

To LaughingCow:

His students (usually anywhere between 10-40 per lesson) are a mix of Japanese and westerners, with a few Germans thrown in, from students to professionals. Here on the Coast very few people I've met actually work 9-5 jobs...and if the 1st class of the day starts around 10:00 and the last finishes at 8:30 it's not too hard to find one or two to get to.

And some of us work night shifts so we can attend most of the day classes.

Starboy...


Fine, sell out. I really don't care

Then why did you get personal? :confused:



Maybe, just maybe, you'll end up at a franchise school where you have a great instructor that knows what he's doing. But I doubt it, and I'd never gamble with my education like that.

It seems to me that you've let your education slip in a number of areas before...why stop now?

To everyone else who posted, thanks for your input. I actually posted this to see the educated opinions of others and I think SAMantis summed it up nicely.

[Stryder]

I go to a school where the most people in our class is 8 people. Our Sifu's, are trying to increase student size to pay for facility rental, by some peoples ideals, that makes them sell outs. Tell me how then are we to keep good schools around if they don't promote themselves to try and get more students.

The reason I ask this is because for the last year and a half our sifu's have been covering the remainder of the costs to keep the place running, and if places like these are not expected to promote themselves for fear of becoming sell outs, then we may actually lose these little gems.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by straight blast
To LaughingCow:

His students (usually anywhere between 10-40 per lesson) are a mix of Japanese and westerners, with a few Germans thrown in, from students to professionals. Here on the Coast very few people I've met actually work 9-5 jobs...and if the 1st class of the day starts around 10:00 and the last finishes at 8:30 it's not too hard to find one or two to get to.

And some of us work night shifts so we can attend most of the day classes.


Thanks, that makes sense. Over here the normal work hours are 9-8, so plenty of classes are on the weekend.

cheers.

[StarBoy]

Then why did you get personal?

Did I? I don't really remember, though I do feel obligated to mock sellouts. I mean, I have no respect for people who sell out (especially in MA) so why not? Besides, in my experience all but one instructor at a McKwoon or McDojo as well as most "business" oriented schools (and I've seen many) has been a total mook, so I hope that expressing my opinions will dissuade anyone looking for a new school from going to one of these "businesses".


It seems to me that you've let your education slip in a number of areas before...why stop now?

What are you talking about?



Our Sifu's, are trying to increase student size to pay for facility rental, by some peoples ideals, that makes them sell outs.


This isn't selling out. As long as the quality of education doesn't suffer, then it's a good thing. If a sifu can take more students, there's no reason he or she shouldn't do some promotion to put their school out there. With 8 students it is difficult to maintain a facility. I posted in another thread (the soda machine thread) talking about one of my sifu's budgets and how she had no problem running a school. Then again, she had no problem keeping her class size at a decent level (without sacrificing quality) to cover the bills.