tai chi master?

[sapphire tygre]

Does tai chi have the same sort of sifu, sensei system as other arts? What are the differences?

[Firebird]

Yes, in Tai Chi there is also the title sifu, not excactly the same as Master.
The difference is:
the title sifu is only for masters who have a own school and teach there.
Former the students lived in the school and worked for their sifu and he teached them Kung Fu.
The school was like a big family and the sifu was like a father.
A person could be a master (seldom ) in Tai Chi or other Kung Fu style, without a own school he is not a sifu.
You could not say after some years you are a sifu without the permission of your own Sifu/Master.

[sapphire tygre]

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking about taking tai chi and just wanted to get some things cleared up. Also what are different styles of tai chi called, and are some faster than others? Thanks again for the help.

[Prairie]

The ranking systems from school to school will vary. It could vary from having no formal ranking system to very regimented.

The main styles of taijiquan are Chen, Yang, Wu-Hao, Wu, and Sun. When applied, all of these styles are done with the proper tempo to deal with the opponent -- that is usually quite quick. However, you are likely speaking about the tempo of the forms.

The 1st Chen style form is of medium pace with some changes in tempo. The 2nd Chen form is done at a fast pace.

I've no experience with the other styles aside from what I have watched. Yang, Wu, and WU-Hao forms seem to be done at a slow pace with an even tempo. The Sun form with a medium pace and even tempo. However, I don't practice these styles and only know what I've witnessed.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I wouldn't trust a single Taiji school that engages itself in ranking. Ranking sustems in Taiji are not a traditional aspect and one which I would feel causes to bring the Sifu's own judegment into question as traditionally its impossible to give someone a belt based upon their expeirnece of qi, shen and various Jin's. A Taiji school that has a belt ranking system is usually a Kung-fu school posing as a Taiji one.

[GLW]

There are a lot of misconceptions and misinterpretations of language - from Chinese to English.

Master - an English Term. Pretty safe to use for most instructors. At the very worst, you MAY be giving the person more credit than is due. An honest person will usually say "Call me..." After you use this term...then you are 100% safe in that you KNOW what to call them...they told you.

Sifu (Shifu) - two ways of looking at this word - One is Teacher/Father. This implies a relationship of Master/disciple that may or may not be there. It does NOT generically mean Master, teacher, or the equivalent to Sensei.

Another view of the word is ANYONE who has skill at something. The bus driver for my group when I was in Hangzhou was called Sifu. He was a good bus driver...but NOT a martial artist.

Sigung - The Sifu's teacher. This has no meaning unless the instructor is REALLY your SIFU. I know of one instructor who refers to himself as Sigung to others that are his peers. This is laughed about behind his back...it is incorrect language.

Laoshi - formal for teacher. This is very respectful... and quite safe as long as the person you are addressing understands the Chinese word.

Some of the newer folks like Coach...clear and concise...but a definite break with tradition.

I know of many Taijiquan teachers who simply use their name..what a concept.

Personally, I do not use the term Sifu in my class. To me, it implies the tea ceremony and a major committment from both me and the student. I teach everyone according to their ability and their willingness to take correction. If a person is someone I don't feel comfortable with in any fashion, they will NOT be in my class.

Just a few observations on this area..for what it's worth.

[RAF]

"I teach everyone according to their ability and their willingness to take correction. If a person is someone I don't feel comfortable with in any fashion, they will NOT be in my class. " GLW

I like that very much, especially the part about their willingness to take correction.

Hope you don't mind if I "steal" it. Don't worry, I'll cite it by GLW.

Just kidding but really good teaching philosophy
:cool:

[iron thread]

Personally, I do not use the term Sifu in my class. To me, it implies the tea ceremony and a major committment from both me and the student.

GLW, that applies for every disciple? I thought that was something between sifus and their indoor disciples? Can you clear me up here?

[GLW]

Many in the US have come to use the term Sifu as a generic Chinese Martial Art term for Teacher - ignoring the relationship aspect.

For example, you go to a competition and every one of the judges is referred to and called Sifu. Sifu Fred, Sifu Smith...by everyone and competitors.

I do NOT want to be called Sifu by such people. I accept it because I assume they do not know what they are saying. I would prefer a simple Mr.

I have plaques from events I have judged in with Sifu...on them. I appreciate the thank yo for the work I did ...but am uncomfortable with the title since to me it implies a lot more than it does to them... and to me, it is simpy poor usage of language anyway.

[sapphire tygre]

How is the teacher going to keep track of individual students progress without some form of ranking? I think I might want a more formal setting than what seems to be offered in a lot in tai chi. Just trying to figure out what the different styles offer. As you can tell I really dont know much about it, but I think I understand the chi concept pretty well.

[Laughing Cow]

ST.

A good Sifu just needs to see a student practice to see where he still lacks and what level he is.

Cheers.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Master? Sifu? Sigung? Laoshi (my personal favorite)? Meaningless without the deeds and attitudes to back them up. I am not a master, not a sigung, possibly a father/teacher figure to some, a formal teacher to others.. I prefer to known by my deeds, by my demeanor and, by the quality of my students.. I don't enforce a policy of titles, my students occasionally refer to me as "Sifu", or Laoshi", but most often as Bob.. Usually, the situation dictates the level of formality.. Usually, i am a little uncomfortable with titles and with rankings.. the system i use is instructors wear a yellow or gold sash so as to be clear as to whom another student may receive instruction from.. aside from that, there are no visible ranking symbols, we are a close-knit school where we know each other's "place on the path" (and respect it). Whenever a student has achieved a proficient level of skill in a particular form they are invited to demonstrate that form and its applications in a semi-formal setting, if i feel they have a working knowledge of the form and its applications, they are awarded a certificate stating such.. whenever they develop a deep and internal understanding of a form, its applications (tested in a full-contact environment), theories, and philosophical foundations, another certificate is issued stating such..

I am considering an instructors sash that identifies which forms they are permitted to teach, but so far the method eludes me.. Perhaps, a sash for all students identifying forms they have passed, and further identifying forms they have sufficient knowledge to assist others in may be worth considering.. I recognize the western mind has a desire for recognition of achievement.. A sash identifying forms passed as proficient is not a ranking of ability as much as a recognition of achievement.. Yet, i am most comfortable with the current system.. (oops, sorry for the burden of my own quandry over how best to deal with this subject).. opinions invited..

In short, i prefer to known by who i AM, not what i think i AM..

Be well..

[Former castleva]

Shifu-mandarin.
"Shi" pronounced with a high tone,"fu" following with neutral tone.
"Skilled Person" as one translation.

"Laoshi",I think is better for a "(school) teacher" type of expression.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Former castleva

"Laoshi",I think is better for a "(school) teacher" type of expression.

I have worked with teachers from both Taipei and mainland China who answer to the term laoshi. From what I understand, use of this term is accepted practice in martial arts circles.

[Former castleva]

K.
Could be translated as "old teacher".

[GLW]

With those from the mainland, Laoshi is more accepted for the professional teacher...one who makes their job teaching wushu (Classical or Modern).

While I AM a formal student of my teachers, I would never use the Shifu title with them. They prefer their professional title (Dr. for one) or Laoshi or Professor or even Madame. In usual, I use the Laoshi term when talking to them...and the English ones for other people so they know what I am saying.

As for rankings....there is no one in my class that doesn't know who they can ask for information and who not to. I have very few students that WANT to instruct so they are very good about not doing things that would cause problems. It is a close knit group that is very friendly...and as such, I don't feel the need for anything other than my name.

In my teacher's class, it seems like everyone wants to be a teacher. They don't know or understand any form of pecking order....but at the same time, when it comes down to it, there is NO authority or difference between any students...My teacher is the only one with authority other than 'student' The class does not even know who is a formal student and who is not. That is never an issue.

It just doesn't come up.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The same is true at my school as well, everyone knows the instructors as well as their own relationship to the whole.. I suppose i am attempting to appease the new students that don't yet comprehend the simplicity of just knowing.. that, and the almost obsessive desire for symbolic recognition..

I don't get the sense that my senior students want to be a teacher, but they do sincerely want to help those that are struggling with issues that the senior student/instructor is comfortable with.. Within reason i am okay with minor adjustments and corrections to techniques already introduced.. but for new material i feel responsible to instruct.. besides, almost always my senior students look to me for a nod of approval or a sign to let it go when working with others..

Regarding "titles", likewise i need no title, but.. i sense that the students "need" some level of formality, i think it adds a sense of validity to their perceptions, especially the new students.. so, i don't trifle if Sifu or Laoshi is addressed to me, sometimes i simply add "please feel comfortable with just plain Bob, as well" (an easy opening for good-natured humor).. I am very informal and a comitted student of humor, that being said.. everyone seems to understand the situations where formality is appropriate.. and, when i am serious there is no doubt as to the code of conduct..

Be well.. and, thanks for the dialogue..