Pak Mei Question

[tparkerkfo]

I am aware of the main lineage of Pak Mei comming from Chueng Lai Chun. But I am currious if any one knows anything about different branches of Pak Mei. I have heard there is a different one in Futsan that doesn't go through Cheung Lai Chun. Any comments?

I hope this to be a civil discussion and not defenerate into a political one.

Thanks
Tom
________
Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

[fiercest tiger]

shaolin master had a topic called omie bak mei or something like that. It doesnt trace lineage to CLC, futsan bak mei from eddie chong doesnt have CLC in there lineage as well.

hope that helps?

FT:)

[MAC]

Are these the only two "publicized" lineages ? I'm not familiar with a specific "Omei Bak Mei", though our history originates from Omei Mountain.
I've seen reference regarding other teacher's without mention of specific lineage, but other than that, Chueng Lai Chun and Lau Siu Leung are the only two that are publicized in any fashion that I'm aware of.

[laubei]

i have heard of a 3 pattern eagle claw system wich was ment to have come from the monk bak mei and a ten tiger claw system ?????????????????????????? seen lau siu leung's web site and noticed some of the form names are the same as those of cheung lai chung does any one know Lau Siu Leung's bak mei system that can tell me some about it

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

Can you get me the address for lau sui leungs webpage?

3 form eagle claw form do you know the chinese name for it?
Eagle claw form was also known as ying jow sup jee kol da, kol sa, kol la.
Thank
FT

[Pakmei]

I believe the Chinese for form 3 is: Lim (or Lin) Kiu Ying Jow Kuen.
Which I believe the translation is something like 'Joining Bridges Eagle Claw Fist', which was taken from the Loong Yin Pai.

This is from Sifu Tang Cho Tak's lineage, who learnt from both Chueng Bing Fat & Grand Master Chueng Lai Chuen. :)

[MAC]

This is your third form in your Bak Mei system ?

[Ao Qin]

I've never understood where this supposed connection to LY came in - the Dragon Style Eagle Claw form does not even remotely resemble the Bak Mei version, unless there is another Eagle Claw form I'm not aware of in LY.

Both are very nice sets, but the resemblance, in my own mind, just isn't there!

Cheers - Ao Qin

[fiercest tiger]

The ying jow lin kuil form starts the same as the lung ying salute but uses the bak mei salute also has a dragon feel to it. It does or maybe to you isnt resembling to dragon lung ying mor kuil which it was suppose to be invented from......the mor kuil form gave the idea for ying jow lin kuil. The YKM version has many moves that resemble the dragon system in this form!!

hope this helps

FT:)

pak mei
3 Form egale claw from hawwaii is ying jow lin kuil??

[Lau]

Ao Qin,

The Pak Mei set is called Ying Jow to confuse people of the origin. It supposedly is a dragon form with only a few changes. I don't know the name of the dragon form it resembles. But a good friend from yellowknife also told me it comes from Lung Ying Mor Kiu as FT stated.

Pakmei,

I don't think this set is related to a special lineage. As it comes from Cheung Lai Cheung I think many lineages have this form.

Regards, Lau

[Pakmei]

I never said the form was of a special lineage.

What I meant is that some schools have the same forms but in a slightly different order.

Under my Sifu, this form is the 3rd out of 10 hand forms.

Regards

Dave

[Lau]

Hi Dave,

I misinterpreted your post. If this is your 3rd form than I guess number one is jek bo and number two is sap ji kuen?

Do you also have a two person set with this form? We have one which is linked to this form as I was told.

Regards Lau

[Pakmei]

Hi Lau,

Actually I made a mistake (under a lot of pressure here at work at the moment!). Ying Jow Lin Kuil is our 2nd form...Sorry!

Our forms go in the order of:

1) Jik Bo Kuen.
2) Ying Jow Lin Kuil Kuen.
3) Sup Jee Kuen.
4) Gow Bo Tuew.
5) Saam Lahm (2 man fighting set)
6) Say Mun Ba Gwa Kuen.
7) Saam Mun Choi.
8) Chi San (2 man fighting set)
9) Sup Baa Morr Kuil Kuen.
10) Man Fu Chut Lum.

Regards

Dave

[Lau]

Posting at work??? sounds familiar....

I also learned two two person sets, but I don't know the names.
5) Saam Lahm (2 man fighting set) Is this the set from lung ying where one side has a lot of kicks and the other side none? Is the side with no kicks at one time crouched and does he need to catch the foot of the adversary (who stamps down on him) in his hands?

8) Chi San (2 man fighting set) Is this the set where both sides have to lie on the ground one time and have to do a kick to the knees?

Regards, Lau

Ps, stress IS bad for you! Let me know if you ever get to Amsterdam, we can have yam cha and a beer!

[Pakmei]

Lau,

Saam Lahm (3 cuddles / embraces) is exactly the one you were talking about. The defense side has the most kicks in it definitely. Not quite sure where it came from (Loong Yin, Lee Gar, etc), it doesn't really matter now because it is practised with a Pak Mei principles nowadays.

Chi San (Sticky Body) again you are correct in your description, however this form is more to do with close quarter fighting - which is pretty much a speciality of the Pak Mei system.

Actually this form is absolutely evil, when it is explained and applied properly (under the strict supervision of the Sifu). This form is very easy to get carried away with! Requires a lot of trust from your sparring partner when beginning to practise this form.

[tnwingtsun]

I was taught the Dragon pattern(Ying Jow Lin Kuil Kuen)
left handed to begin with,as time went by most of us reversed
each pattern to get a better feel and balance to connect the right/left side brain to body and reflex.

Dragon stood out for me in a special way because it put more to work my unpolluted left hand(I'm a right hander).

The order of patterns taught when I trained hard were as follows,
some are taught in different order now.




1) Sam Mun
2)Short Cross
3)Sup Jee Kuen(Flower/Cross set)
4)Ying Jow Lin Kuil Kuen(Dragon)
5)Staff
6)Jik Bo Kuen(Straight Foward)
7)Gow Bo Tuew(Nine Step Push)
8)Sun's Crutch's(Tonfa/PR-24)
9)Internal Sam Mun(I don't know the Chinese name for this set)
10)Sup Baa Mor Kuil
11)Man Fu Chut Lum(Fierce Tiger out of the Jungle)
12)Five Elements???

Elbow subset
12 step Chi-Kung

This is by no means a complete layout as its been refined in order and the way the patterns are taught,but the core remains the same.

I have heard that CLC called the System he learned from the Monk "Ngor mei-Shaolin"(Omei?) which he latter changed to what we know now as "White Eyebrow".

I wonder if he was the only non-monk that learned this system,and if theres any one in China that survived Mao's plunders are they as solid as CLC's branch?

If so,what sets do they teach??

What happened to the Monks that taught CLC??
Did they teach other monks??
If they did,where are they now?
Did they make it through alive?
Did they pass the art down to other monks?

Will the missing Monks please stand up??

Those in the back please tell that monk doing flips and cartwheels
that we are here to find the his brothers that know this "Forbidden Style"

[FIRE HAWK]

What about Chuk Fat Wans other student Lin Sang I believe that Lin Sang also taught Pak Mei to selected students but they are not coming forth with there information i dont believe that story that he was just told to teach religion even if he did i still think there are lineages that come from Lin Sang , Maybe his art was called Ngor Mai shaolin or whatever that name was ,lineages of what could be like Cheung Lai Chuans Pak Mei could have come from Lin Sang and still be very similar coming from the same source Chuk Fat Wan. Just a thought to think about Lin Sang is a good possibility for other lineages what ever happened to Lin Sang ?

[Shaolin Master]

There still is amongst the Emei(NgorMei) martial arts a 'Shaolin' style. Known as Emei Shaolin it bears no resemblance nor in principle or motion to Bai Mei. It was derived from the Northern shaolin arts around 250-200 years ago.

The Lin Sang group are two types :
Those that proclaim that lineage but the content is as CLC (so doubtful). The others that do not resemble CLC content but repositioned sets, in fact this group is also doubtful.

Monks practising arts are not as popular nowadays as then :). Also many styles were unamed, secret or forbidden at one stage or another.

At the moment I have not yet been able to summarise the research clearly but it shows that predominately CLC is the key regardless of lineage claim. One day I will put it together amongst a million other things that have to be done.

I have also met one old gentlemen that practised martial arts originating from the same temple as CLC 'was said to have studied in' but there was only two sets. Each very different, one did bear resemblance to GBT/MFCL/YJLK but everything was repositioned and reorganised. THe other set seemed to be likesome moving exercises (qigong in nature). It was gentler and less esplosive but it was most likely influenced by the age of the gentlemen.

Regards
Wu

[Shaolin Master]

"I want to know how Cheung Lai Chun created Bai Mei Quan. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon nor the lineage .I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Albert & Friends :D

[fiercest tiger]

The pak mei was influenced by lo maan pai so maybe the connection here. Is lo maan pai hakka or both hakka and other dialect/peoples of china?

nice to here your still alive shaolin master!

FT:D

[tnwingtsun]

Shaolin Master-Priceless:)


FT-I'm tired on the way to bed,what and where does "lo maan pai" fit in?

Warm Regards to you both

[Yum Cha]

Hi guys, lots of familiar "faces".

...did I say just how jealous I am that SM is off plundering the knickers of TCMA in China... Its obscene. If we find out you're just holed up in a cubicle in HK, you're toast. <grin>

SM, sounds like some of your getting the good oil. Nothing like "the hourses mouth" with all due respect to the parties involved.....

As you know, I agree with you, but more from an intuitive perspective than anything else. It seems to me, from everything I've heard, that it was Great Grandmaster Chang who captured the raw "ingredients" crafted the art we call Pak Mei. The "Temple" was the finishing school, where the pieces all came together. And he never finished trying to perfect the art for the next 60 odd years? Why not?

You mentioned that you had met someone that had two patterns from the temple, one with "subtle similarities" to PM, and one internal. Sounds like the "primordial stuff" if you know what I mean, add 100 plus years as well...

We've spoken about "layers" before, no need to belabour the point. It all makes sense to me.

Now, what happens if you/we get our hands on some "primordial stuff"? What can you do with it? Is it anything like tickling the dragon's tail?

BTW, we had 24 on the grass last Saturday.

[tparkerkfo]

Just to add,

I have heard there is a form of Bak Mei that is taught in Futsan/foshan that is not directly related to CLC. I don't know much about it other than seeing a little hear and there. I think it has many forms, some of which are similar to CLC. These I think are called treasure forms. Like I said, I know very little about it, but thought I would bring it up here. Any one know any more about this branch?

Tom
________
Big tits spanish (http://www.****tube.com/categories/282/spanish/videos/1)

[MAC]

Yes, the lineage through Chong, Yin Chueng si gung who's lineage is up through Lau, Siu Leung from Futshan does not claim any direct lineage from CLC branch. Seems we share a number of the same form "names", though I know some of these to have variations from the CLC format. I believe the greatest commonality (from conversations or public lists I've seen) would be the sup gee, sup baat mor kiew, kow bow toi and fu bo forms. There may be others.

[Shaolin Master]

The problem is Lau Siu Leung's history.

Which I will not elaborate here, as I'll keep that for the Bak Mei Masters Secrets Manual 2004/5 Edition if I ever write one. :-)

[Oldyela]

How can a system have sub ji and not trace its lineage to CLC?

[Shaolin Master]

:D . yes its not plausible is it, ...

[extrajoseph]

I don't do BM but the "History of Guangdong Martial Arts" says Lum Hop created BM and passed it onto CLC and others. May be the book is wrong but CLC's teacher(s) must have influenced his BM.

[Yum Cha]

Check out the old thread I just put to the top of the list. It has a lot of this same stuff.

[MAC]

So, if I am following this correctly, I am to understand that according to Shaolin Master and Oldyela (and others?), that all roads lead to CLC or they are not Bak Mei ? And does that also imply that only one individual learned this "style" and *only* passed to CLC who then embelished it with his own influences to therefore create Bak Mei ?

[Yum Cha]

Hi Mac,
First of all, this is an exploration of a theory by examination of what meager facts we have to work with. SM has had some direct experience in some of the areas and opinion plays a role too. We're not carving history into stone here.


Originally posted by MAC
So, if I am following this correctly, I am to understand that according to Shaolin Master and Oldyela (and others?), that all roads lead to CLC or they are not Bak Mei ?

Add me to that list too. In my humble opinion, GM CLC created the art from many pieces, but he was the glue that added the value that made it different to say, SPM, or LY or other Hakka arts, or other temple arts. He chose the name. He could have called it Chang Gar and it would have been no different. It has roots going back much further, sure, but, as in evidence from SM, the roots haven't grown into the same kind of tree.

And does that also imply that only one individual learned this "style" and *only* passed to CLC who then embelished it with his own influences to therefore create Bak Mei ?

I think it is a natural conclusion that there were others that learned what CLC learned, the question appears to be, what did they do with it? Remember CLC was not just "another kung fu guy" He was a ferocious and proven fighter, a champion, a resistance fighter, a legend in his own lifetime. It's a far reach for me to believe that a man like that learned everything that made up his "style" from one place, one person.

Mind you, that is not to say that "Pak Mei" from "other lineages" are frauds. SM has experienced that they are real arts (is that correct SM?) only different. So, the term "Real" isn't perhaps the correct term to debate.

Does that make any sense?

[Shaolin Master]

I guess in summary it is :

If a person teaches Bak Mei and the content is similar or the same (less the variations existant in itself during development or non disclosure phases) as that of CLC, then it is none other than CLC's Bak Mei. [Irrespective of any alternative lineage claims]

If a person teaches Bak Mei that is completely different to the 'globally' acknowledged Bak Mei (ie CLC) but it is a complete art it is also possible to be a different art of the same name. This typically is found in regional areas where it seems white eyebrows where popular amongst old folk and often not necessarily attributable the novel imposed legend of the 5 southern masters Bak Mei.

If a person teaches a differently named art that claims origin in the Bak Mei of legend. Then this again must be evaluated on its own merits. Because based on legend as an example a type of Lee family MA was exclaimed as being passed on by the legend Bak Mei. As were some arts on Emei such as BabuHuZhang etc...

However, the Bak Mei known and acknowledged spread, popularised and famed for its ferocious no nonsense combat approach is CLC Bak Mei!

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[MAC]

Ok, I'm with you so far .... and I know that CLC acquired (at least) 18 schools by defeating their owners/leaders. So it's been said that these schools were transitioned into Bak Mei schools BUT many still manitained influence of whatever their original style was. My understanding is that this created some of the variations in CLC lineages own form sets and practices, including individual form techniques, content, sequence, number of forms and weapons. Would this be accurate?
I'm compelled to ask because as one reviews what's available on the grand www you can see that even within this lineage there exist many differences, but among them there are a "core" group of forms that all tend to maintain the common bond. What I can't tell is if the actual forms of the same name are identical to one another (within reason). Of those I have seen, there are considerable differences, so.... just clouds the issue to me.
I am not familiar with Chan Hop. Do any of you that are closer to the subject know of him or his claim?
And finally, what of the older gentleman that was referenced who stated "that was not his Bak Mei" or something to that effect. Any more information regarding his perspective or knowledge?


I'm sure you fine folks have nothing better to do than answer these questions ! Serioulsy though, I appreciate the fact that each of you are willing to impart your knowledge and experiences upon those of us on the seeking path.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by MAC
Ok, I am not familiar with Chan Hop. Do any of you that are closer to the subject know of him or his claim?

My mistake, it should be Lum Hop, CLC's uncle, who was his first teacher. Lum Hop started a famous MA school in 1862, where he taught some of the pioneers of Guangdong MA, include his brother's son Lum Yiu-Gwai. Both CLC (Bak Mei) and LYG (Lung Ying) were cousins. CLC was born in 1880 and LYG in 1878 and they lived next to each other and grew up together.

After Lum Hop, CLC went and studied with an old monk called Jeug from Wah Lum Temple for 3 years. He then set up his first school in Guangzhou called Dai Tung Wui Mo Gwoon where he started to teach BM. BM was not created by the Daoist Monk Bak Mei from Emei, he was just a fictional character from a novel called "Meng Nian Ching". The main ingredients for BM came from Lum Hop and Monk Jeug.

After Lum Hop, LYG went to Law Fo Shan to study for 4 years with Abbot Dai Yuk before he statred teaching LY in Guangzhou, so LY, like BM has influence from Lum Hop as well.

Both CLC and LYG became famous in the 1920-30s as two of the Five Tiger of the South, yet very few people talked about Lum Hop, their uncle who first taught them Kung Fu.

Lum Hop (b 1831) was a native of Wai Yeung and he started Kung Fu early at 14. From 17 he followed Wong Lin-Giu (an ex-Fujian Shaolin Temple monk) for 10 years before openning up a Kung Fu school in his village Leung Fa. He was brave and skilful and was offerred government positions, but he knocked them back and went to Law Fo Shan to study with Abbot Gwong Jen (WLG's Sihing) for 3 more years instead. He continued to teach in Leung Fa until his death in 1908.

I mentioned Lum Hop because I think he deserved a credit for instigating not one but two home grown MA styles from Guangdong. IMO, Lum Hop was a humble but influential man.

[Yum Cha]

This must be the "alternative" history I've heard mentioned a couple of times. It appears to go against the "published" history in the book by HB Un. Are you quoting from that "History of Guangdong Martial Arts"?

Besides the differences concerning the temple (perhaps not as significant as at first glance), it indicates that he had but one "early" teacher, his uncle. Whereas, taking from the sources of the patterns that make up the style, the saying is that there were 3 early inspirations. Keeping in mind that "family" styles were quite popular in those days...

Lam Sek?

Mind you, I only surmise this from "the book" and other gossip passed about on-line, so any new information is always welcome, but perhaps some confirmation or attribution is in order?

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
This must be the "alternative" history I've heard mentioned a couple of times. It appears to go against the "published" history in the book by HB Un. Are you quoting from that "History of Guangdong Martial Arts"?

Yes, my information came from the "History of Guangdong Martial Arts", which talked about Lum Hop, his school, his brother, his students/relatives like CLC and CYG. Also information on all the major Guangdong styles like Hung, Lau, Choy, Lee, Mok, CLF, Hop Gar, Fut Gar, WC, BM, LY and the Hakka styles etc.

I guess it is "alternative" history because it came from the mainland China written in Chinese by Chinese experts and historians. I only do CLF and Tai Chi so I am not in a good position to judge its accuracy, but as far as CLF is concerned the information from this book is guite good. The book was funded by the government after years of research so I pessume it would have a minimum standard. The advantage of being in China is one can easily varify the names, places and dates, a little harder when one is overseas.

Lum Hing-Yun, Lum Hop's younger brother and father of Lum Yiu-Gwai also taught at the Leung Fa school, so he would have exerted some early influence on CLC as well.

[Yum Cha]

Well, hard to argue with "alternative" history like that. <grin> I have heard this book mentioned before here, and it certainly sounds scholarly... The other is the "family" story.

We all know that vested interests have a habit of changing history, and exaggeration as well as humility can colour a story. Good marketing, is likewise, nothing new. So, perspective is always a great tool in understanding the past. Thanks for the input.

I've found Shaolin Master to be pretty knowledgeable in this area, So SM old buddy, you got any comments on this book? I know you hold Lum Hup in high regard...

<respect>
Mind you, I still feel that wherever it came from is moot, as Grand Master Cheung Lai Chun was the one who brought it together as it is today, and it is in his name it carries on.
</respect>

Is there any SPM history interwoven here with the BM and LY? Gee, this is getting interesting....

[fiercest tiger]

I have read and been told by some bak mei teachers that clc did study SPM at one stage when CLC and LYG as well as lau soi (spelling) was friends and practised together i think thats the mantis guy maybe wrong name......lol

ft

[MAC]

Well put Yum Cha. Though I don't think that anyone argues the credit that CLC receives for the proliferation of the bak mei around the world or his personal abilities and accomplishments, there are grey areas within the history surrounding the early origins and propagation of this style, aren't there ?

[Yum Cha]

Grey areas? Well, perhaps we can answer that two ways. One, that there has never been anything but grey areas, and that part of the puzzle is seeing through the grey.

Or, you could say that there is a family history, and a government/academic history now. I would not say they are as yet inconsistant at such a superficial examination, though I am hardly a scholar in historical matters. Names in different dialects, romanisations, nicknames, propernames, its quite often too hard for me to follow.

It would be nice to have a more thorough examination. Is that quote complete and more or less verbatium Extra Joseph? Did you do the translation?

I think the key lies in the pedigree of the pattern Gau Bo Twi, and perhaps Sub Bat Mor Que as well.

FT, someone once said that the GM's of PM, LY and SPM all came from the same town. We know CLC and LYG did...

[MAC]

..and I'm certain "some" things will never be known for sure, but it will be nice to see other information clarified or confirmed, etc. Unfortunately I am so far removed (geographically) from any serious attempt at research or discussion - thus I seek the input from those of you with the wherewithal for this conveyance of information.
In light of that, here's another question for you : why is it that the only place(s) I've seen the "real" name of Bak Mei come from the Viet Namese branch ?

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
It would be nice to have a more thorough examination. Is that quote complete and more or less verbatium Extra Joseph? Did you do the translation?

Well, there is a segment on Lum Gwoon, CLC, CYG, BM and LY. I sort of summarised and translated the gist of them roughly. There are dates, place names, names of people, names of forms, techniques and character descriptions of each style, but it will take too long to translate and I don't have the time nor the expertise to do a proper job. I was only trying to highlight the contribution made by Lum Hup to BM and LY.

Curiously, there is no mention of SPM in the book at all, not under Hakka arts or the Guangdong styles. I tried to look for Yau Kung Mun as well but couldn't find any mention of it either, but there is a segment on Ha Hong Hung and his school in China and Hong Kong.

[FIRE HAWK]

Is there anything in that book about the style called Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist this is a Hakka style from Malaysia that came from Fukien to Canton Kwangtung province ?

[fiercest tiger]

What does it say about YKM and grandmaster Ha?

If you dont mind sharing that would be great and i thank you!!!!:)

FT

[extrajoseph]

FH,

I didn't see anything on Chuka Shaolin Pheonix Eye Fist in the book but there is a Hakka style called Chu Ga Gao and it was founded in late Ching by Chu Wong-Yi who passed onto Chu Ah-Nam and then his son Chu Jen. It is very popular in the Mui Yuan District where they used the term "gao" insted of "pai" for a style.

The book has a selection criteria for inclusion as a Guangdong style: 1) Must have existed with a certain amount of time and history and tradition. 2) Must have a complete sysytem of training methods, forms and weapons. 3) Must be widely practiced over time and places. They gave an example of Fu Hok Seung Ying not being included as a style (pai) because it only satisfied conditions 1 and 3. Bak Hok, Lamma, SPM and YKM were not included probably for similar reasons. Altogether they selected 20 styles roughly separated into "Pearl River" and Hakka Styles. There are 8 Hakka styles selected so their influence is strong in Guandong.


FT,

Under the chapter on martial arts schools (mo sut gwoon) of the late Ching period there is a segment on Ha Hon Hung Sports Association. The reference material came from the 60 years anniversary journal of the Ha Hon Hung Sports Association so it is very similar to what you have on your website. They only mentioned HHH being a top disciple of CLC and no mention of Monk Tiat Yan or that he studied CLF.

For my own interest, how much of the BM and CLF is incorporated in YKM?

[FIRE HAWK]

Could you tell me what the names of the 8 Hakka styles are that is listed in the book ?

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks mate,

The ykm system is primarily bak mei, we have some sets that Grandmaster Ha made from his CLF hung gar background in his early days. 1 FORM only called ying ching, has tension like hung gar and some moves of clf and bak mei all in one. Basically it has long and short hand moves, lots of circles with some tension and bridge training.

As for our other history not much has been talked about given to the public for some reasons.

regards
FT:)

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
Could you tell me what the names of the 8 Hakka styles are that is listed in the book ?

Ngog Ga Gao (Ngog Family Teaching)
Diu Ga Gao (Diu Family Teaching)
Lee Ga Gao (Lee Family Teaching)
Chu Ga Gao (Chu Family Teaching)
Chung Ga Gao (Chung Family Teaching)
Kun Lun Kuen (Kunlun is the largest mountain range in China)
Nam Gee Kuen (Nam Gee is the founder Chan Nam Gee's name)
Lau Fung San Kuen (Lau Fung San is the founder's name, Kuen means fists or forms as in Hung Kuen)

[FIRE HAWK]

What would be the translation of the names of these styles in english ?

[extrajoseph]

FH,

I edited my last post to include English translatios for you.


FT,

Thanks for the explanation, now I know a little more about YKM. There is another piece about HHH from the book you may find interesting.

In 1935, three years before Guangzhou fell to the Japanese, they had a provincial Kung Fu meet and HHH School had this list of demonstrations shown in the program:

Ng Ying Kuen (Five Animals)
Seg Si Sup Ji Kuen (Stone Lion Cross)
Sup Ji Yink Jow Kuen (Eagle Claw Cross)
Darn Do (Single Broadsword)
Sarm Mun Ba Gua (Three Doors Bagua)
Ching Lung Gim (Azure Dragon Sword)
Soong Bang Gwai (Soong Bang Walking Staff)
Sai Mun Ba Gwa (Four Doors Bagua)
Omei Lok Hop Mui Fa Cheung (Plum Blossom Spear)
Hoe Gee Seung Do (Monkey Double Broadsword)

I can recognize at least two CLF forms there (Ng Ying Kuen and Ching Lung Gim), maybe when HHH first set up his school in 1924, he was still teaching a bit of CLF as well as BM.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks very much your a legend dude!!:)

Funny, how people can learn something new from someone sitting on the other side of the world on his computer. Some of the forms like the monkey swords, walking cane, ching lung gim have different names or my translation may have been incomplete. I wonder if the double swords are the monkey swords as we just call it sheurng Dao, and the gim i learnt was called bak sim gim. As for the walking cane i heard that HHH was fantastic with his cane.:)

all the best.
FT

:)

[atari]

Extrajosph mentioned that Chu Gar Gao is popular in the Mui Yuan (Moi Yen in hakka) area. Also fiercest tiger mentioned that Chong Li Chun learnt some SPM. I have heard from some Chu Gar elders from Moi Yen that CLC visited Moi Yen and crossed hands with some of the Chu Gar practitioners. As a result he decided to utilize Chu Gar as part of his own art.

Firehawk,
I think you asked about Chuka from Malaysia and how is it in comparison to my Chu Gar which went to Indonesia from China. Well, my Chu Gar is more similar to SPM of Yip Sui. We do have the Sarm Bo Jin and Sarm Jin Yiu Kiu as the basic form. But then we have also some forms which have the same name as Pak Mei forms like Sarm Mon and Sip Bart Mor. I have seen Sarm Mon performed by Pak Mei people and it has similarities in concepts with the Sarm Mon of my branch of Chu Gar i.e. elbow breaking, finger jabs/bridging with the beggar hand techniques. Note that I only know about this Chuka from Malaysia from Leong's book.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks EJ for the translations. A legend indeed.

I recall hearing from SM that there were some similarities between an old pattern called "Sam Bo Twi" (Sarm Bo Jin?) and Gau Bo Twi. (3 step push and 9 step push).

FT
Interesting to see the Ng Ying Kuen on that list from HHH. This is as yet one of the unexplained patterns. Somehow, I don't think our version if from CLF, what do you think? Have you ever seen the CLF version?

I heard that Yin Ching was named after a famous Master of CLF. That it was for your "vitalities". I'm also told it was Sifu Leung Cheungs "favourite" pattern in his final years, as he felt it improved his health. I have always wondered where the CLF influence came in. The Hand is so different, yet there seems to be a kind "Presence" nevertheless.

Oh yea, cane sounds cool, never seen a cane pattern.

Atari,
Thanks for the Chu Gar Gao connection.

[fiercest tiger]

Hiya,

The ng ying form of YKM or Bak mei isnt the CLF one, our one is diffferent to the ng ying form i learnt from guangzhou in 1996, very different i must say.

Ying ching was sifu's favourite and told me a story in hongkong when a truck blew exhaust in his face and he felt sick and said that ying ching expels toxins and you must sweat to release it all. He said he did ying ching 3 times and felt much better....lol like Dr's saying a apple a day!!:) This form was named after CLF teacher , maybe HHH's teacher i dont know.I think it also means green swallow or something!?

Anyways chat later
FT

[extrajoseph]

The wall chart in King Mui CLF museum said HHH learned CLF from his father Ha Seng whose teacher learned from Chan Koon Pak.

Ying Ching (Green Swallow) was one of the 108 Heroes from the popular fiction "The Water Margin Classics" (Sui Wu Jun). He was well known for speed and endurance.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks EJ.

[fiercest tiger]

LOL, i forgot about that, i have a full history here but didnt bother to go through it. I was told it was a relo!:)

anyway was the hero guy a CLF master and was the CLF master that taught HHH father any good etc.

whats the water margin classics?

FT

[extrajoseph]

Ha Seng could have been a relative (my note said Ha Seng only, I must have thought otherwise), he studied with Wong Fuk-Wing, a disciple of Chan Koon-Pak. Wong was a great teacher, he had some famous students including Fong Yuk-Shu (CLF Chan Hon-Hung's sifu and Fong also studied with Chan Koon Pak and Yuan Hai as well) and Lum Yum-Tong of Mok Ga fame.

The Water Margin Classic was a great martial arts novel from early Ming Dynasty, it had fantastic fights scenes, unbelievable characters and the theme of rebels v the status quote, all Chinese kids in the olden days grew up with comic strips from its stories and that was long before Bruce Lee! I still got 8 of these little comic books left from 1960! We all wanted to study martial arts so we too can become like one of the 108 rebel heroes and run away to the Leung Shan Marshes to join the revolution!

It was written 100s of years before CLF came onto the scene (in the early 1300s) so Ying Ching could not have been a CLF master. In the novel he was famous for killing a nasty villian in an open fight on stage, I still remember, it was called Ying Ching Da Lu Toi. I think Soong Bang was also another character from the same novel.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Thanks EJ for the translations. A legend indeed.

I recall hearing from SM that there were some similarities between an old pattern called "Sam Bo Twi" (Sarm Bo Jin?) and Gau Bo Twi. (3 step push and 9 step push).




This is what I have always been taught by my sifu concerning the origins of 9 step push. Does anyone have any more to add to this?

(Thanks for all the great contributions by all, very interesting)

EAZ

[atari]

Sarm Bo Tui is in fact very similar or the same as Jik Bo, its based on the core techniques of finger jab, punch and palm pushing together with bridging movements. So I would tend to say that the Sarm Bo Tui is the predecessor of PM's Gau Bo Tui and Lung Ying's Sup Luk Dung. This finger jab and punch is in fact the bread and butter of of certain hakka arts not unlike the jab and cross of boxers.

Whereas Sarm Bo Jin is developed from or along the same lines as the many types of Fujian Sarm Jien forms such as five ancestor's, white crane, tiger, and even karate.

[R]

There has been lots of controversy re the relationships between SPM/BM and LY. I have heard that there were battles between the mentioned sifus and some have claimed victory over others....of course each clan claims for their own. Considering this I would not want to try and say who was "taught" what by other teachers of these somewhat related arts.

By the way I remember one group telling that Bak mei was 1st and that his younger brother was one of the founding fathers of SPM. Which then would you expect to be the father of the others techniques?

Cheers, R

[atari]

The origins of kung fu are shrouded in mystery. The legendary Pak Mei according to some cannot be traced to any real person. What was his real name?? So far I have not heard of anyone that can come up with that. But more important is what we can emulate from the character of Pak Mei. We should be aspiring to be like the legend of him, to have as little vulnerabilities as possible and minimize weakneses. After all isn't he the one well know as the Taoist that has minimal weaknesses that even his genitals and eyes are imune to injury from strikes. Alas even he had one point of weakness according to the legends.

But the obvious father of current Pak Mei is Chong Li Chun.

Its just like CHu Gar Gao. Some legends say that it has its roots all the way back to Chu Yuen Cheung (or Chu Hung Mou), the first emperor of the Ming dynasty. But it was not until Chu Fook To that Chu Gar Gao really took shape. Chu Fook To was a Ming royalist arouund the time when the Manchus was invading the Ming dynasty. In fact Chu Gar Gao is not unlike the Hung Moon. The current popular SPM and Chu Gar/Chow Gar is only a portion of the CHu Gar Gao. Its just like the Hung Gar of Wong Fei Hung is only a portion of the vastness of the Hung Moon.

[Shaolin Master]

Atari Wrote : =>[WFH Hung Ga is only a small part of Hung Men
SPM is only a small part of Chu Ga Gao] ->>> I agree!

Chu Ga Gao of ShanTou (Teo Chew people...my fam) differs from that of Meixian county. Hung Men is the Hung Ga we practice and also that used to derive the many arts of vietnamese branches it includes interesting combinations in addition to those of WFH such as Dragon and Tiger, snake and crane, Sup Ji ...etc..

Sam Bo Toi is conceptually the basis for Gau Bo Toi and Sup Lok Dong. It was said that Lum Hap learned from Hoi Fong (Wong) and used it as a basis for Gau Bo Toi.

Yes Lum Hap and Chueng's teachers played an important role and yes YC I do respect Lum Hap. Regarding the text history of chinese martial arts is good and most recent publications are well researched scientific and relatively accurate. There is a complete encyclopedia of chinese martial arts that also includes lots of interesting information (mainly styles short history and contents).

[atari]

Chu Gar Gao of the teochew people?? This is the first that I have heard of that. I have always thought that Chu Gar Gao was the domain of the hakka people. But thinking again its not surprising as the Chu Gar Gao was established to counter the Ching dynasty and anti Ching was not solely the domain of the Hakka. In fact I think historically the northern arts played a bigger role in the usage against the Ching then the southern arts like Hung Moon, Chu Gar Gao. So what does the martial arts of teochew chu gar gao look like, if you can compare it to commonly know arts??

There is a division of the Chu Gar Gao in the old times (1800s), that has sworn to wear only rags. They stem from the vagabond/beggar traditions of the hakka people. Many of the beggar hands techniques of SPM are derived from this division of the chu gar gao. Even Bak Mei has these technques like in Giu Bo Tui's first move after the salute. I know that many of the techniques of this beggar division of Chu Gar is still preserved in Vietnam. I think that many of the old school Hakka and Cantonese (Hung Men) arts are preserved in Vietnam. Whilst the old school Hokkien arts are preserved in Indonesia, Malaysia and Philipines. Although I can say in Indonesia many of the Chinese arts are modified. Why? Honestly I think that even with the so called 'effective' techniques, the Chinese found it ineffective against the savage head hunters of Indonesia. And a Chinaman is always a target for violence.

Its interesting how you bring up Hoi Fung. I believe Hoi Fung's art is actually Fujian and belongs to the family that practises Sanzhan. So it seems that even Sam Bo Toi/Gau Bo Toi/Sup Lok Tung is developed along the lines of the Fujianese sanzhan forms. I thought otherwise as Gau Bo Toi and Sup Lok Tung are not normally performed with dynamic tension. But then again the techniques do have a similar flavour eg. they all emphasise some form of finger jab technque ('fic sau' in SPM) whether in SPM, PM, LY, or Fujianese arts (I am thinking of Ngo Chor here).

[Shaolin Master]

ShanTou although predominantly TeoChew there is also a large proportion of Hakka, it is from them that it originates.
It has been practised by both there onwards.

The Chu Ga Gao of Meixian county has around 8 sets, the Shantou also has the same number but they differ name and organisation. The techniques and the fundamental teachings are similar. It is just a matter of differing conventions. Also the stick set of Meixian is not found in the Shantou art.

Some of our sets include Fung Zhua San Jiao Zhang, Qi Xing Bu and He Shou. They are not too long nor overcomplicated, with a distinct feature in each that is being developed.

The San Zhan basis of SamBo/SupLok was mentioned by me a few years ago in some old thread.....

In terms of Hoi Fong, an old Dragon style couplet explains his contributions and how he is significant in the Lum family arts even to an extent the Long Xing Mo Qiao which at times contradicts the commonly accepted Dai Yu Monk factor (similar to Bai Mei in that respect).

Atari you are the first person outside of my own known entities to actually classify the guangdong arts into Hakka and HongMen:)