The Art of Peace

[Phenix]

" Rather than being captived by the notion of " Winning or losing" seek the true nature of things.... if your thoughts are antagonistic toward the cosmos, those thoughts will destroy you andd wreak havoc on the environment....

Greet an opponent who comes forward, bid goodbye to an opponent who withdraws. Keep the original balance and your opponent will have nowhere to strike. In fact, your opponent is not really your opponent because you and your opponent become one. This is the beauty of the art of peace." ---M. Ueshiba


" Figthing is the mind of Winning or Losing
That is against the Dao
This type of thinking give raise to You, Me, race differential, and time.
How can one enter into the proper samadhi via this type of mind?" ---- 6th patriach of Chan, Hui Neng.



The Art of Peace by M. Ueshiba. A book describe Chan and Martial art without using the Word "Chan" and give raise to " figthing" mind.

Not only It will not mislead one. It can lead one to become better.
He who had walked the path certainly can show us how to be there.


Chan, SLT, WCK.. The Art of Peace... there is " not two" but are they one?

[Rolling_Hand]

Normally, we limit the meaning of perception.

Food reminds us of eating;

Dirt reminds us to clean the house;

Hendrik reminds us Ch'an and his lips are two different things.



When the man of highest capacities hears Tao
He does his best to put it into practice.
When the man of midding capacity hears Tao
He is in two minds about it.
When the man of low capacity hears Tao
He laughs loudly at it. --Lao Tze

[Phenix]

Against just for sake of against.

Great example!
Great teaching!


We all must learn this Great lesson.

That is the beauty of the world. Great!

[Rolling_Hand]

Against???

Nothing is set in stone.
Show me a man of violence that came to a good end,
And I will take him for my teacher.

He who acts, harms;
He who grabs, lets slip.
Therefore the Sage does not act,
And so does not harm; --Lao Tze

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Against???

Nothing is set in stone.
Show me a man of violence that came to a good end,
And I will take him for my teacher.

He who acts, harms;
He who grabs, lets slip.
Therefore the Sage does not act,
And so does not harm; --Lao Tze



King Asoka
And Gautama Buddha's teaching transform him.


Second Patriah of Chan, Hui Ke, beat and broken BoddhiDamo's front teeth before he become Damo's student.


Moreihei Uesheiba, Tesshu Yamao Ka, follow the path of Avalokitesvara Boddhisatva.


From ancient India to ancient China to today's Japan, accross continent, dis-regard of race..... Grear people exist in all race and all countries. One just has to look and examine..

Get the book --- The art of peace. You will like it.

[canglong]

"Extension of knowledge comes from the investigation of things.
When things are investigated, knowledge is extended.
When knowledge is extended, the will becomes sincere.
When the will is sincere, the heart can be set right.
When the heart is right, the personal life can be cultivated.
When the personal life is cultivated,
the community can be regulated.
When the community is regulated,
the government can be made orderly.
And when the government is orderly,
there will be peace in the world." --Confucius

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik wrote:

From ancient India to ancient China to today's Japan, accross continent, dis-regard of race..... Grear people exist in all race and all countries. One just has to look and examine..

Get the book --- The art of peace. You will like it
------------------------------------------------------------

The end of reading is not more books but more life...

Those who awaken never rest in one place.

Like swans,

They rise and leave the lake.

They know all the ways of heaven.

When you are in contact with this original ground,

Then you are never confused

By the illusions of past and future.

[Grendel]

They cried, "Peace, peace. But, there was no peace."

I'm not sure about this thread being related to Wing Chun. It reminds me of last weekend's marches around the globe. (Did you hear that when the Paris demonstrators passed through the Arc de Triumphe, the French government surrendered?) :) Bear with me as I strive for relevance.

Do your peace loving protest signs read, "No blood for Wing Chun?" I don't think one can learn the art without spilling a little blood. So, how about this slogan---"Sufficient blood for Wing Chun?" Speaking for myself, even exerting moderate care for each other, accidents do happen. Is this art peaceful then? You'll note that I've left the word "martial" off the "art" in the interest of "Peace." :D

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument about peace or whatever. :D

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Grendel
They cried, "Peace, peace. But, there was no peace."

I'm not sure about this thread being related to Wing Chun.....

Regards,


When there is no peace inward, there always unneccessary tensing of stoping breathing..
When will one attain the lite as feather and flexible adaptive as water?

When there is no harmony outward, there always against and brute force.
When will one attain what Chuang Tze said" dissamble a cow without wear or damaging the knive?"


" Greet an opponent who comes forward, bid goodbye to an opponent who withdraws.."
How will it implemented?

[Geezer]

Did you get my PM??

Regards

Sheldon

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Phenix

When there is no peace inward, there always unneccessary tensing of stoping breathing..
When will one attain the lite as feather and flexible adaptive as water?

It can be argued relaxation is a prerequisite for good Wing Chun. However, it is a stretch to wrap it up in unnecessary metaphysics. Wing Chun is about econony too. Why add another layer of complexity?


When there is no harmony outward, there always against and brute force.
When will one attain what Chuang Tze said" dissamble a cow without wear or damaging the knive?"

I don't know. I have a hard time keeping my knives sharp. :D But, I do subscribe to the butcher analogy. Butchering is a learned skill, just like Wing Chun.


" Greet an opponent who comes forward, bid goodbye to an opponent who withdraws.."
How will it implemented?
Sounds straightforward to me. :) Good practice with or without a philosophical overlay.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Grendel

It can be argued relaxation is a prerequisite for good Wing Chun. However, it is a stretch to wrap it up in unnecessary metaphysics. Wing Chun is about econony too. Why add another layer of complexity?





Relaxation is an over simplify description.
More are there to be understood.....

economy is when one doesn't step on break while accelerate the car. One needs to know and be able to stop that other leg which is always step on the break unconciously.

Always another degree of freedom can be seen as another layer of complexity. However, when one "knows" it than it is obvious and natural.

There is no another layer of complexity. It is just illusion mold one's thinking pattern to think--- return to the emptyness is metaphysics.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Phenix

Relaxation is an over simplify description.
More are there to be understood.....

economy is when one doesn't step on break while accelerate the car. One needs to know and be able to stop that other leg which is always step on the break unconciously.

Always another degree of freedom can be seen as another layer of complexity. However, when one "knows" it than it is obvious and natural.

There is no another layer of complexity. It is just illusion mold one's thinking pattern to think--- return to the emptyness is metaphysics.
Hi Phenix,

Interesting and thought provoking statements. I enjoy reading your posts.

Help me to understand your points: what it comes down to is that you believe that your study of Chan is fundamental to your understanding of Wing Chun?

If all I care about in this context is learning Wing Chun without the Chan, would you say
that your method of teaching/learning is more effective from a martial skills perspective? Or, is it a chicken or the egg thing, by which I mean, by studying Wing Chun without studying Chan, I might stumble or be directed to the other, and in the end recieve the same understanding, or will I fail in my quest ultimately unless, in your POV, I grasp the Chan independently of my Wing Chun? Or, none of the above. :D

Regards,

[canglong]

Grendel,
If I you will allow my 2 cents worth. I would just say the answer for all of us is that when we see cha'n we are thinking wing chun when it should be that when we see wing chun we should be thinking cha'n. The inner peace in this particular discussion is derived from several things wing chun bieng one of those devices that can point the way to a realization of cha'n. There exist many an analogy for this particular topic my previous post being just one of those many.

[Phenix]

IMHO


what it comes down to is that you believe that your study of Chan is fundamental to your understanding of Wing Chun?



No I don't "belive " that.

I dig into Chan and other Buddha's or daoist or confusian's ..teaching decade ago with one reason.
To decode some martial arts writting which given to me and I have no clue at all.



So, In my understanding,

1. in the old time, to advance one's art one has to has a grasp in the domain of mind, qi....
Chan or Esoteric Buddhism or Doaism and TCM are great vehicle for that.

The bottom line is to understand how mind/body Creation happen , what is the possibilities, and or how to cast off the limiting factor of human potential.


2, Also some art comes with Shin Fa or
the method of mind which is the core or platform of the art.

The bottom line is to decode this shin fa and implement it to see the original face of the art and to see how far can this art goes.

there is a serious question everyone has to answer honestly about thier art within thier heart. Does the art has the Shin Fa and really related to the Chan.... Daoism... that is critical because when one needs it one might not have the vehicle to go advance. So, Chan... Daoism... are not an empty word. the Question is does the cell of the art has the DNA/platform? Claiming the art is from Emei or Wudang or Shaolin doesn't by default guarentee the DNA/platform exist. So, is it really Daoist from the Wudang or Chan from the shaolin is the core DNA of one's WCK? Say, I answer mine Yik Kam SLT as more esoteric buddhism / Daoist buddhism trend. So, Chan school teaching is not a direct related for my wck.

But, The question has to answer by each individual from thier own lineage represent. It is not about arquement ects. It is more about so what is it?


In addition,
The reason of this post on ----the art of peace book-- is about Osensei. He can achive a very advance level of martial art with an open, broad, non- figthing , non- I am number one, Non- I am the original mental attitude or inner peace and external marmony "platform" .That is something good and alots to be learn. -HS




If all I care about in this context is learning Wing Chun without the Chan, would you say

Perfectly ok.

Say, Aikido is based strongly in spiritual teaching and has Chan related Shin Fa.
But, not everyone will like to grasp that or like to attain higher level.... everyone's needs, interest, and capabilities is different.








that your method of teaching/learning is more effective from a martial skills perspective? Or, is it a chicken or the egg thing, by which I mean, by studying Wing Chun without studying Chan, I might stumble or be directed to the other, and in the end recieve the same understanding, or will I fail in my quest ultimately unless, in your POV, I grasp the Chan independently of my Wing Chun? Or, none of the above. :D


IMHO,

1, A physical teaching is effective if it has clear final vision, result orientated, clearly sort out, and very precise and particular in its components.

however, we all are human, we all have equal potential, but different in using our mind.
so,
The biggest problem in classical case of Chinese martial art, using Osensei's word as example, is " I am teaching you to use your mind".

How to teach one to use thier mind? That is very difficult.
That is also where the Chan method of teaching come into play. Instead of giving an instrution or solution on what to do. Creat a mess of confusion and let the other get real confuse up and even angry ( due to intimidate or reveal a fact to shock... ) but then when the other really go through thinking, analysing... and see's what it is . one knows how to use their mind.
But then, this is a dangerous part because not everyone can comprehend and might back fire. Thus, as in Chan school, one has to train with the patriach who has the "Mind Seal" transmittion, otherwise it can get totally mislead or enter into demon (side) state as it was called.

2. Even one knows all the Chan or Daoist ...teaching. That is not equal to one's art has Chan or Daost... DNA/platform. One can refine the art to include Chan teaching so that the followers can have a vehicle to advancement. That is nothing wrong and good thing to do. But one shall keep it honest.

3, As soon as one is not satisfied and wants to have better understand about one's potential. certainly one will quest for knowledge.. it might end up with studying Chan, Daoist, Christianity, confusians, .... and later adapting as needed as thier platform.

similar with when we are hungry we will look for food. but is it Chinese, Italian, Indian, Mc domard.. that's is everyone's taste. However, there are some differences on what the different food does to one's body.

Thus, the bottom line of this post is not about to say what I know. but about to explore what is in the world and how everyone doing it. and ofcause, the Osensei way is a very respectable way. Eventhough imho, i think very rare can get there. But this it is a good reference.

[S.Teebas]

Grendel Writes..







Originally posted by Phenix

When there is no peace inward, there always unneccessary tensing of stoping breathing..
When will one attain the lite as feather and flexible adaptive as water?


It can be argued relaxation is a prerequisite for good Wing Chun. However, it is a stretch to wrap it up in unnecessary metaphysics. Wing Chun is about economy too. Why add another layer of complexity?

Good point by Grendel. I think keeping WC simple is really important, especially when transmitting it to others. I recall one instructor of mine who had a really good structure, and when I asked him how I can get a good structure too he said: “Think about it.” At the time I was thinking: “That is a useless explanation, I need to know exactly how to do it. Why cant he just tell me!?!?” But in hindsight it was probably the best answer I could get, because it really encouraged me to THINK.

Although to a degree I can see some value in Phoenix’s comments. For example when doing chi-sau, thinking about laying on the beach and being totally relaxed can help me relax. Sometimes thinking in a very abstract way for a moment, can serve a purpose to you. Or even if thinking is understood, I think it could translated in an experimental way which allows a Sifu to help the student achieve a desired result, for example removing stress through getting the mind to concentrate something totally, ie getting the mind away from where you physically are for the moment. Which seems to be what the whole mediation thing seem to be to me (focus on something completely and you forget the tension your experiencing here and now, thus the relaxed state achieved.) But you’ll need direct feed back from the student, to see if the abstract explanation has the desired effect, which can tell if pursuing a certain line of thinking is actually producing a positive effect of just confusing the hell out of the student.

But to summarise, I believe keeping the transmission of WC needs to be kept simple. And the students really need find what works for themselves in order to achieve the desired result. Giving an abstract explanation can sometimes leave too much room for interpretation (run like a duck! Swim like a dragon! Invincible punches!). My above example of lying on the beach might be relaxing for me, but for someone who witnessed his or her friend gets drowned at the beach it could be a very stressful experience. Of course my example is to the extreme, but none the less it gets the idea across that different imagery can create very different results in people depending upon personal experience. Each person needs to find his or her own way, while the facts remain the facts.

[Phenix]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by S.Teebas


For example when doing chi-sau, thinking about laying on the beach and being totally relaxed can help me relax. Sometimes thinking in a very abstract way for a moment, can serve a purpose to you.


IMHO,

"Thinking" still has a "limitation" due to the limit of the "thought".

In addition, say,
Thinking about laying on the beach will sure relax one but also will cause the mind to not be mindfull on what one is doing...

There is a "state/ place" called " true emptiness or mist of great void". there the mind is mindfull and the body and breathing are in a accord to natural state.... there when limit is cast off....

I wish things can be simple....
however, what I found out, in the mind domain. it is difficult to communicate. not to mention how to put all the mind/body/breathing/qi flow/ focus...../ sensing/...

On the other hand, inner peace and relax are different things. on can achieve relax via thinking different things but not neccessary inner peace while one has to face the issue.

Thus, as in buddhism teaching, when the self, you, me,... fighting thought arise. there is the end of inner peace.

[kj]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
[b] ... different imagery can create very different results in people depending upon personal experience. Each person needs to find his or her own way, while the facts remain the facts.

This is very true in my experience. Different people naturally respond to different explanations, metaphors, imagery, etc. Even for me, just one person, what makes something "click" can vary from time to time.


Originally posted by Phenix
"Thinking" still has a "limitation" due to the limit of the "thought".

In my experience, there is a time for thinking, and a time to set aside thought and judgements and to the degree we are able, merely to allow and observe. The thinking and the not thinking seem, to me, complementary, both in life and in learning and acquiring Wing Chun. But I am not a Chan person, only a person; others' MMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj

there is a time for thinking, and a time to set aside thought and judgements and to the degree we are able, merely to allow and observe...

But I am not a Chan person, only a person; others' MMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo


investigating "who" is the person who observe is the path to limitless...
Attach to the person "who" is observing is the path to limitation.

Chan is only a vehicle to serve one.
One can see's one's nature with lots of different vehicle. Not necessary via Chan. IMHO.

Hendrik

[Phenix]

IMHO,

investigating "who" is the "one" "who observe" is the path to limitless...
Attach to the" one" "who" is observing is the path to limitation.

IMHO, What SLT needs is the path to limitless...
But the vehicle to limitless is it only Chan?
There are Esoteric buddhism teaching, Chan teaching, Reciting Buddha Teaching, Daoist teaching,...... 25 vehicles of practices all listing in the Surangama sutra.

For example,
As in the Kuen Kuit of the Ermei 12 Zhuang it said
" Attain and confirm the Samadhi principle, this particular one "sees" the Amitaba (limitless wisdom and limitless light) buddha... one has to take refuge to the Guru."
This is closer related to an Esoteric Buddhism teaching.
Amitaba Buddha and Guru are the key words here for Esoteric teaching relationship...


as in the ancient scripture,
When one "sees" the "limitless" then the description of "limitless" is accord with the description in Chan teaching since there is the same "limitless"...
But then that doesnt mean this person following Chan teaching to "see" the "limitless".


Furthermore,
Say today's teaching of Heaven, Human, earth in some WCK family.

Heaven, Human, earth teaching is based on I-ching....The Dao or path of Heaven is Ying Yang...
The six lines of Iching represent Heaven, Human, and earth with each catagory two lines. so all add up to be six.....
That is not Buddhism or Chan based but Daoism based....



All these mind related stuffs is a part of the big picture.
there are still the Body mechanics, breathing, qi, intention..... all have to put together at the end. only, when all converge. the system is put together.... otherwise one stuck with different "things" instead of a "pice".

Then, when the system is investigate and cross examine from various angle the longer and details the investigation and cross examine take the weaker the system will hold.

Again, IMHO, the art of peace, the book is a good one to take a look on how others put things together.

What is the shape of water? it changes... but never lost its water nature. that is the difficult part.


Hendrik

[S.Teebas]

Im trying to understand you reply but havea few quesrtions i wonder if you could answer?


..there when limit is cast off....

How do you know that?
And how do you get there?



inner peace and relax are different things

What's the difference? What's inner peace?

[Phenix]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..there when limit is cast off....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that?


IMHO, In my understanding, as I have heard, it is like when one always can see altanative in all situation peacefully and harmonisely without feeling trap or limited in one solution or one way of doing things.

Similar to water always be able to response spontaneously.. -HS



And how do you get there?


IMHO, as I have heard, That is the not a simple thing.

First one has to know there exist somethings like that and belive it is possible.

It is a" Belive then it will become reality" compare with our usual "show me and I will belive" process.

One has to willing to give up usual thinking patterns....
One has to searching for the "technology" to implement it.

it takes alots of time to experimenting it. While in the path of experimenting the implementation one learn and learn... since everyone is different and have different "blind" spot.

so it is more about a process of let go of what is excessive rather then learning something new or add on something new... --HS





What's inner peace?

IMHO, as I have heard,
a State of dynamicly balance of mind/heart
mind Relax but always mindfull.
intention actively focus and radian but not stress or rigid.


thus,
breathing as it needs but not stuck or stop.
physical contract and expand but no uncessary tensing. --HS

[Rolling_Hand]

--How to teach one to use thier mind? That is very difficult.--Hendrik

**Don't get bent out of shape. You are what you think, and you can cheer up.

--That is also where the Chan method of teaching come into play. Instead of giving an instrution or solution on what to do. Creat a mess of confusion and let the other get real confuse up and even angry ( due to intimidate or reveal a fact to shock... )--HS

**He who stands on tip-toe, does not stand firm. Don't be surprised if, after jumping through hoops, you wind up back where you began.

--but then when the other really go through thinking, analysing... and see's what it is . one knows how to use their mind.--HS

**Don't worry yourself needlessly. Give it time. You've yet to hear back from Tao.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


**He who stands on tip-toe, does not stand firm. Don't be surprised if, after jumping through hoops, you wind up back where you began.



That is true.
sometimes it will happen this way.

sometimes, One sure wind up back where one began, however one also gain the experience about the process and will be better next trip.

Every de tour is learning experience going forward as soon as one didn't give up to go forward. Who is perfect?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Phenix
What SLT needs is the path to limitless...
But the vehicle to limitless is it only Chan?

This is what I was asking earlier. I approach SLT from my Wing Chun which doesn't include any formal Chan or other philosophy, although we should all have a philosophy that informs our study and goals.


as in the ancient scripture,
When one "sees" the "limitless" then the description of "limitless" is accord with the description in Chan teaching since there is the same "limitless"...
But then that doesnt mean this person following Chan teaching to "see" the "limitless".

Is this something like the concept of "limit" is limiting in itself as a concept? :)


Furthermore,
Say today's teaching of Heaven, Human, earth in some WCK family.

I follow Yip Man's teaching of Wing Chun. I haven't learned that he undergirded the study with the direct teaching of any religion. There are clear philosophical underpinnings attributed to Wing Chun Kuen, such as "If you have sympathy (for another), don't fight. If you fight, have no sympathy."


Heaven, Human, earth teaching is based on I-ching....The Dao or path of Heaven is Ying Yang...
The six lines of Iching represent Heaven, Human, and earth with each catagory two lines. so all add up to be six.....
That is not Buddhism or Chan based but Daoism based....

Daoism seems to underlie much Chinese culture. Daoism seems to be inherent in the Kuen Kuit, but I don't see the others' direct connection. Naturally, there is cross-influence and I defer to your greater expertise on such matters.


All these mind related stuffs is a part of the big picture.
there are still the Body mechanics, breathing, qi, intention..... all have to put together at the end. only, when all converge. the system is put together.... otherwise one stuck with different "things" instead of a "piece".
We are looking for the big picture, "the whole" instead of discrete pieces? Yes, I see this.


Then, when the system is investigated and cross examined from various angles the longer and details the investigation and cross examine take the weaker the system will hold.
If we look at the system from different perspectives, we see the same system, but if we get lost in the details, or change the details, we are not seeing the same system in the same way.


Again, IMHO, the art of peace, the book is a good one to take a look on how others put things together.

What is the shape of water? it changes... but never lost its water nature. that is the difficult part.

Water with its energy removed is rigid as ice. With too much energy added to the physical system, it becomes vaporous, and can even be destroyed. :D Or, we can add ingredients to the water, which with each sharing or incarnation become diluted.

[Phenix]

Is this something like the concept of "limit" is limiting in itself as a concept?

what limiting cosmos?:D

[[Censored]]

This is what I was asking earlier. I approach SLT from my Wing Chun which doesn't include any formal Chan or other philosophy, although we should all have a philosophy that informs our study and goals.

If you do not try to have a formal philosophy, does this mean you can become empty at will? If so, great; Chan is worthless. :) The rest of us might benefit from a framework to decrease ourselves, so that the Wing Chun can show itself naturally and without obstruction.

Anyway, I daresay this is not about Chan, it is about the common FOUNDATION. It is about sensitivity and continuing mind, things which should be studied in depth and in isolation!