Some truths about Grappling or Ground Fighting

[KnightSabre]

After reading some of the latest posts by some people regarding grappling I thought I would start a new thread to try and clear up some points.

The first one that caught my attention was when someone said that ground fighting is not a combat style.
I think they said that because grappling competitions do not include striking of any kind.
Thats silly,it's like saying Kung Fu is not a combat art because in competitions there is no apponent when you do a Tiger form.
Ground fighting can most certainly be used as a combat style and is very successfully used in MMA comps which I agree is not a real fight but it is certainly the closest format one can test your skills with out weapons and other unseen circumstances.

Another point that came up was that ground fighter are allways big and strong and smaller weaker people should not do it.
It's actually the opposite,
Grapplers have in the past shown that they can over come some huge size and strenght differnces with superior technique,
infact BJJ was changed in such a way as to use leverage more effectively so as not to have to power your way into a technique.
An example would be when Helio Gracie was still in his prime he was sitting on a beach in Rio when he noticed this huge guy walking on the beach,the man was an american wrestler.
The wrestler had a huge attitude and was strolling arround smugly,it is estimated that he was about 6'5 and weighed close to 300.He passed Helio who only weighed 130 and gave him a look,Helio was not intimidated and returned the look.
The guy got aggressive and after an exchange of harsh words they went at each other,to cut the story short, Helio choked the large man uncontious.
There are so many more of these examples that this point is moot.


The next thing that comes to mind is that a grappler will never take a skilled striker to the ground for what ever reason,either he will knock him out with strikes or he will will drop his stance and root with his chi and this will stop the grappler taking him down.
Unless you have practiced your take down defences more than the grappler has practiced his take downs you will be taken down.This means that your take down defence has to be greater than his take down skill.
Even now in the latest UFC and Prides where both combatants are trained in take down and take down defence atleast 80% of the fights still go to the ground at one time or another.So if athletes that are skilled at take down defence still get taken down then how much easier will it be to take someone down that doesn't train take down defence.

Now I'm not saying that BJJ or groundfighting is the be all and end all because I train my standup too,I do Boxing aswell as Muay Thai and then when we grapple we add strikes in to change the game as well.

I have studied 5 years of kung fu so I'm no ingnoramus when it comes to TMA,this also includes 2 years of Wing Chun privately which would probably equal 4 years of class lessons.

I changed to MMA because I found that the alive manor in which they train was incredible and the ground fighting with resisting apponents was intense,no ego is left after you've been trounced by a smaller weaker indavidual.

I've been lucky enough to train with Matt Thornton (BJJ blackbelt and JKD instuctor) he is an amazing teacher and unbelievably good fighter.

[Merryprankster]

Knife,

BJJ does not and never will use leverage more effectively than any other grappling art. It just has a slick emphasis on certain fight-ending aspects of groundfighting we call submission. And you get good at what you train at :D

[KnightSabre]

I think it does,

I have a wrestling champ who trains with me and his ground movements are far more explosive and have alot less to do with leverage than my BJJ does.

[Goldenmane]

Knight-

Something that has come to mind over the years I've been watching the whole bunch of continuous debates (endlessly repeated) in the martial arts:

I know that technique is very important, and can beat strength if the stronger opponent has a drastically lower level of technique. That is not a problem at all. I do wonder though what the view is regarding if one, with only slightly better or equal technique, comes up against a drastically stronger opponent.

In other words: Technique is all well and good, and the smaller weaker individual may tend to develop better technique than the naturally large and strong (due to the tendency for the bigger stronger person to rely too much on their strenght)... but what happens when the big strong guy is aware of this and develops d@mn good technique?

Seems to me, that in such a case it might well stand to reason that the opponent with the greater strength would stand a better chance of defeating the weaker.

Thoughts, anyone?

-geoff

[KnightSabre]

Goldenmane,

If all things are equal than size and strength matter,This is in all combat sports though,if there are two guys with equal skill in MMA,rugby,American football etc the bigger,faster stronger guy will have the advantage.

With grappling it's no different,the smaller ,lighter guys have to work harder than the bigger stronger guys.
I have a 9 month student who weighs 130 and he continuously taps the 200 pounders his level and below him.

[Merryprankster]

Knight, I wrestled. The movements rely on leverage just as much. But a wrestler is also taught to go balls out from day one. It's a slightly different mindset, but not a difference in using biomechanics to accomplish an end result.

Goldenmane, attributes matter. Good technique can reduce the disparity, but attributes matter.

[Oso]

'leverage' would matter in any grappling art wouldn't it?

submissions aside any throw, pic or drag relies on using
something as a lever to manipulate the opponents body.

[Former castleva]

*Groundfighting... ...groundfighting...grab,grab...grappling------...groundfighting...*


I wonder if this is a cult?

It must be,since I´m being converted to it.
:cool: ...





























:D

[Water Dragon]

Groundfighting is for insecure, closet ****sexuals who haven't yet come to terms with their alternative passions.

[Felipe Bido]

Hi KKM!

[Xebsball]

Why yes indeed my friends
I recall one time Helio Gracie once said: "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world."

[ewallace]

I am seeking damages against you, and I will need to recover those damages in order to buy a new mouse. My mouse has been worn and rendered unusable due to the constant need to scroll to get thru your posts.

And, unecessary spacing in your posts is just plain wrong.
:)

[Lao_Peng_You]

Something I don't understand, what is the big beef btwn grapplers and TCMA? Most people here seem to know that good grapplers are just that, good fighters. I've fought BJJ guys, and depending on who they are, are usually good and sometimes great fighters. The ones who are just ok are the ones who have not fought with strikers, and leave themselves open. The good and great ones know strikers, and are decent strikers themselves, and minimize their exposure. Like any good MA, they also have practiced the what ifs, so they react quickly to changing dynamics in a fight. Good and great TCMA do the same, they can *think* ahead to their next couple of movements. Bad and OK TCMA like to stand around and counter punch and kick only. These guys are usually hobby enthusiasts, and their is nothing wrong with this; it's their choice.

Also, if you are interested in CMA that grapple, Shui Jiao (HAHA the ch sound in Mandarin is formed in the back of the throat, so if you sounded out "Chiao" it would sound like "cheriow". The Taiwanese don't like conforming to PRC rules on any level) is well known on this board. Their is also the infamous "Fukian Dog Fighting", which is a little more rare, but worth looking into if you are so inclined. It practices break falls without slapping, and the throws have bone and joint breaks in them amongst other things. One last prominent art that has grappling is Ba Gua. It has many joint manipulation, throws, and if you are so inclined, you can practice the principles on the gound, and this can give you at least some ground game. I'm sure there are more that I don't know of.

[Goldenmane]

If all things are equal than size and strength matter,This is in all combat sports though,if there are two guys with equal skill in MMA,rugby,American football etc the bigger,faster stronger guy will have the advantage.

Knight -

So... I'm correct in my assuptions, is that what you're saying?


Goldenmane, attributes matter. Good technique can reduce the disparity, but attributes matter.

And Merry, you also seem to be agree with me, yes? No?

I'm currently a little drunk, so I may be being a touch dense. Please forgive me if this is the case.

-geoff

[Former castleva]

"I am seeking damages against you, and I will need to recover those damages in order to buy a new mouse. My mouse has been worn and rendered unusable due to the constant need to scroll to get thru your posts.

And, unecessary spacing in your posts is just plain wrong."

Has damage been caused to you,which limits your ability to buy a new mouse,or did the scrolling cause your mouse to wear out?
For my own defense,I could say that to scroll trough all of the mamama/tma etc. posts could as well have caused the damage.

Either way,take a break to calm down the connective tissues and then afford the mouse.
Best wishes.

[Xebsball]

Well, some food for thought...

This one time Helio was sitting by the beach, listening to the calm sound of the waves while Royce tried to choke Rickson on the background.
Then it was when the light of the sun reflected on the sand that Helio put his left hand under his chin, rised his left eyebrow, pondered and said: "Could god build a rock so heavy that he couldnt lift?"

[shaolin kungfu]

Did royce succed in choking rickson?

[ShaolinTiger00]

God couldn't choke Rickson.

[Xebsball]

I'm afraid my source, who gifted me with this epic story did not take the bout between the brothers into relevance when passing this on to me and the true reulsts of this match were never exposed.

[shaolin kungfu]

God couldn't choke Rickson.

Maybe not, but it would be fun to watch him try.

[Former castleva]

Why did not he try to stop Gracie X from choking Gracie Z?

[dezhen2001]

coz he was contemplating the nature of God. :)

dawood

[Xebsball]

"Who would win on a bjj match Rickson vs God?
Hmm.. Rickson!!
Wrong!! Haha, trick question! Rickson IS God"

[shaolin kungfu]

If rickson is god, what does that make helio?

[Xebsball]

The "Tao"? :eek:

[dezhen2001]

his dad? :p:D

dawood

[Xebsball]

When Helio was young, he enjoyed the fun game of "kite-battles" or "kite-deathmatches". The idea was two guys squared of with theirs kites flying high on the air, and at the sound of gunshot to the skies they began the deathmatch.
This kites were equiped with state of the art sharp blades around them, with the objective of hitting the oponents kite and therefore cutting it (killing it) and so winning the match.
It was a stormy night that night, and Helio was to face up against his not-so-well-known older brother called Rorny.

It is there, in the storm, where this common brazilian man, Helio Gracie lifted his kite. Before the battle began, lighting came crashing down. It hit Helio's kite, abrubtedly chocking him in the process. He noticed he had discovered the great force of this century. Of course, it was no discovery at all, but rather a canny intuition of the essential identity of lightning and what he at that time named "the newly-discovered Electric Fire."

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Goldenmane


Knight -

So... I'm correct in my assuptions, is that what you're saying?



And Merry, you also seem to be agree with me, yes? No?


They are agreeing with you, with the caveat that this is true of all athletic activities, and is not solely true of grappling. The bigger, stronger Choy Li Fut player will probably mash the equally-skilled-but-smaller-and-weaker CLF player.

[Felipe Bido]

God has no need to choke Royce....lightning will do.

[Goldenmane]

Thanks FatherDog.

I was drunk. Subtleties of meaning (heh) can be missed in that state.

-geoff

[heron]

But not only size and technique come into a fight. A small fighter who has a good mindset could possibly beat a larger and more skillfull oponent. Perhaps the large skilled fighter was to ****y going into the fight for egsample.

[heron]

overly confident (for the censored part).

[KnightSabre]

Heron,

I agree, a smart fighter can be a dangerous fighter,
Sakarabu is an example of a smart fighter,well except with his first fight against Wanderlei Silve. :)

[Captain Chicken]

Eyes, neck, collar bone, joints, groin. Guys who have tried to grapple me get hit hard, fast and continuously. I have a hard time trusting any system that will allow someone to kill or disable me in one blow. Grappling may work for some, but it is not the safest for much of the world, especially smaller people and women. I would rather my son block punches than grab and choke. I suspect a court of law would agree with me.

[yenhoi]

"Grappling may work for some, but it is not the safest for much of the world, especially smaller people and women. I would rather my son block punches than grab and choke. I suspect a court of law would agree with me."

:rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

Captain Chicken,

How much grappling have you done? I'm asking because your responses seem indicative of little grappling experience, or little experience sparring with grappler-types.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just curious.

[KnightSabre]

Captain Chicken,

You are a prime example of why I wrote this thread,

First of all if a bad man is going to rape a woman he is not going to do it standing up,he is gonna tackle her to the floor and use his strength and weight to hurt her.
If she is a versed grappler she may stand a chance to escape or choke him uncontious or even break an arm.

Striking someone that is real close to you is also not as easy as one thinks,and yes we train grappling with strikes included.

[sapphire tygre]

Just an obsvervation... Some people on this forum consider Judo to be "grappling", and in a way, it is, but then some people here think grappling only means bjj, or just ground wrestling. I'd like to point out that Judo can be utilised without ever hitting the ground, it's style encourages this in real life.

[Oso]

This one time Helio was sitting by the beach, listening to the calm sound of the waves while Royce tried to choke Rickson on the background.
Then it was when the light of the sun reflected on the sand that Helio put his left hand under his chin, rised his left eyebrow, pondered and said: "Could god build a rock so heavy that he couldnt lift?


oh, that is such a beautiful picture, i'm in tears just visualizing
the peace and serenity of such a scene.


or, maybe my meds need adjusting.....:)

[Oso]

and, dang it, can't we point new folks to old threads about this?

I thought it had been agreed that you need both striking and
stand up skills AND grappling skills AND you need to train really
hard at both. Someone (Merry and/or Seven would be my vote)
write a good treatise on it and have KL sticky it to the top and
before your profile gets approved you must read it before you
start posting.

It would save bandwidth

:)

[KnightSabre]

Oso,

but then there would be no one posting :)