ffs aikido ?

[TzuChan]

Anyone has any experience with this ?
As the old members of you might remember, I was the dude searching for over a year to find a club nearby, I then found one, pretty **** far away. Now I lost my transport to get there, so I'm well ... out of the Wing Tsun business =(

Then I went searching for MA in general nearby, and the closest thing to an MA besides ***** ass Karate, was Aikido, is Aikido even worth the trouble ? I mean Wing Tsun was **** effective, but Aikido wtf is that all about ? I saw a video of their grandmaster who could kick your ass without even touching the opponent, I mean how gay do you have to be to believe that **** ? I hope he was just demonstrating the flow or something, and not really trying to show everybody he was kicking ass without touching them ... I mean wtf ? =/

So if anyone here has crosstrained Aikido or something, let me know, I really wanne stay in the MA environment, I just love it ! But wtf is the deal with the pink friggin non touching fighting, I mean c'mon, people actually buy that crap ? :[

[Golden Arms]

I am not saying I am the only opinion you have to listen to, but, I have fought my share of rough fights, san shou bouts, worked with resisting opponents, etc. and I still have not found someone that I think could take my old Aikido Sensei. Dont diss it until you try it out, a good aikido player can make you feel like you are trying to kick the oceans ass while standing waist deep in it. The throws feel like a huge wave picks you up, and you dont even know what is happening until you are on your head or worse. Only THIS ocean is laughing at you the whole time while you are having your A$$ handed to you :D My point is that I love Hung Gar, and respect the other fighting systems out there too, including MMA of course, and I say DONT MESS with a good Aikido Player unless you want to die and have no idea how it happened. And dont mess with a bad one unless you want to die laughing ;) Just my 2 golden Taels

PS: oh, and the non touch thing, it works..but not the way you think it works..you just have to experience it yourself and you will feel what is going on..its not magic..Aikido just abuses some of the body's natural reactions to certain things to make some techniques work..again, you dont think it works..go to Aikido Seikikai to name one school in WA, and try it out..hope you know how to take hardfalls on the back of your head safely ;)

[TzuChan]

ok, I'll try it out, I got another option atm, Tai Chi Quan (am I spelling it correctly ?), but it seems to be the ***** version of WT ? :D I'll go take a look at aikido, if it's good and the clothes don't cost too much I'll try it for a year it's extremely close to my home anyway.

Btw where does Aikido come from ? China or not ?

[Kinjit]

Aikido is japanese.

[carly]

Maybe it exists, but I haven't experienced it.
All the stuff I've seen required a cooperative victim/partner for demonstration.

[Golden Arms]

Hmm..one cool thing to do though is cross train in judo with aikido a bit so you know that there is a hard side to it :) Only a bit though..Aikido doesnt need the judo to work, it just lets you see what is hidden in there is all if you want to know.. Its from japan, and you will hear good things and bad things about it on this board, but one thing is for sure..it, like many martial arts has good and bad practitioners, but if you work hard and are patient, after a couple years you can throw your friends around like ragdolls and you can develop a very cool ability to tell what someones body is doing just by touching, say, their wrist and not looking :) All it takes is hard work...if the school seems too new age-y then just learn some techniques and practice them with a partner that knows/will learn how to fall outside of the school..you will learn some good stuff. The feeling of a good aikido player that wants to get you is comparable to the feeling a mouse gets when its looking up at a cat that doesnt bother to hide..it just keeps stalking closer and closer and the mouse KNOWS its screwed! ;) Its pretty cool :)

[carly]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antwerp
Victor Kan Classical Ving Tsun Kung Fu
Tel: +32/ 0486 796154 or +352/(0)91 382897
Web: www.vingtsunvk.com
Notes: affiliated with Sifu Victor Kan.
Update: 16nov02
Nederlandse Wing Chun Kung Fu Federatie
Belgielei 99 Stedelijke Basisschool
Tel: 03 4545705
Email: federatie@wingchun.nl
Web: www.wingchun.nl
Notes: Maandag 19.30-21.30
Bornem
Wing Tsun in Bornem
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Bree
Wing Tsun in Bree
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Braschaat
Wing Tsun in Braschaat
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Brussels
Académie de kung fu wing chun traditionnel
55 rue du Brochet 1050 Bruxelles
Tel: 0477/57 38 40
Contact: Sifu Laurent Aoute
Notes: Cours le Lundi 20h00 à 21h30, Mardi 18h30 à 20h00, Vendredi 18h30 à 20h30, Samedi 12h30 à 14h00.
AMOK Club of Wing Chun and Kali
Rue Crickx 31, 1060 Brussels
Tel: 0032 2 537 08 07 (voice mail)
Fax: 0032 2 538 61 02
Email: amokclub@yahoo.com
Web: www.members.tripod.com/~asblcesar
Contact: Es Samri Aziz or Thauvoy Jesabel
Notes: Wing Chun and Kali-Arnis-Escrima.
Victor Kan Classical Ving Tsun Kung Fu
Tel: +32/ 0486 796154 or +352/(0)91 382897
Web: www.vingtsunvk.com
Notes: affiliated with Sifu Victor Kan.
Update: 16nov02
Wing Tsun in Brussels
Tel: 02-2304749
Contact: Ralph Rahders
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie). Affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Charleroi
Tang Shun Ping Wing Chun Kuen
Charleroi, Hainaut, Belgium
Tel: +32 486 16.38.98
Email: fabrizio.nicosia@skynet.be
Web: www.ving-tsun.be.tf
Contact: Fabrizio NICOSIA
Notes: Member of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association.
Update: 6oct02
Deurne
Wing Tsun in Deurne
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Geel
Wing Tsun in Geel
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Gent
Wing Tsun in Gent
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Hasselt
Wing Tsun in Hasselt
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Leopoldsburg
Wing Tsun in Leopoldsburg
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Lier
Kon. Julianalaan 8, 2678 ED, De Lier
Tel: 0174-510884
Contact: Jan Pieter Boekestijn, Level 10 (Instructor)
Notes: affiliated with WWCKFA.
Meeuwen
Wing Tsun in Meeuwen
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Mol
Wing Tsun in Mol
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Sint-Niklaas
Wing Tsun in Sint-Niklaas
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Tongerlo
Wing Tsun in Tongerlo
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Use our form to add or update your school. Listing does not imply endorsement by wingchun

[Golden Arms]

Oh, and like I said..it can be found for sure (good aikido) at aikido seikikai in WA. I forever owe a debt of gratitude to that school for opening my eyes to some of the cooler things in the world of getting your butt kicked..they train hard, and they (the senior students at least) are a dedicated bunch. Regardless..dont take my word for it, if any of you are in seattle or japan, look up seikikai, and try them for yourself..

[carly]

yet effective, I'd look for a (good) Hapkido school or get some Russian systema tapes and train them with a partner.

[old jong]

Aikido as not proven itself in any UFC/Pride never. So.....;)











































































































It is good but it may take some times to be really effective. ;)

[Golden Arms]

Oh, and going with carly's statement..I have the feeling/impression that good aikido schools are few and far between..there are a LOT of "harmonize with the universe, and feel the magical ki flowing through you until you can blast your opponents into the netherworld" type schools out there unfortunately :D

[dezhen2001]

i trained aikido for 5 years before i met my Sifu (now only do qigong and wing chun). in every encounter i have been in it has served me very well... even just knowing how to land without snapping and about being in a good position. even how to take someones centre and when you can hit them... they are all very useful.

like Golden Arms said. Here at my uni we have an old sensei who is around 70... his grip is SO strong, and the way he uses that bokken (ie. stops the technique - sword moving, body-weight, step etc. at EXACTLY the same time), kinda tells me he has good power as well.

Most people who havent trained long say that we dont use resisting opponents, but actually we do... u just cant really resist it and its the boduies natural reaction - otherwise things get snapped :D

My 1st aikido lesson back home (as an equivalent 2nd dan in shotokan) consisted of me trying to hit the teacher any way i could while then being dumped on my ass, back, side, front and all manner of weirs things happening to me as i couldnt touch him!

so there IS good stuff, but like good kung fu you just have to find it :)

dawood

[ShaolinTiger00]

I mean Wing Tsun was **** effective, but Aikido wtf is that all about ?

This thread is funny on so many levels.

Aikido players get schooled frequently by judoka in randori. At one time Aikido was quite respectable and to even begin aikido, you had be a shodan rank or better in judo (A man who understood the principles of offbalancing, turning force against an opponent, re direction of energy)

but sadly aikido fails.

They cannot practice their art against a resisting opponent. I train regulary with several judoka who started in aikido and came running to judo after spending many years in the art. Why? - Lack of reality. and the "cult like" obsession with bushido.
Remember Ueyeshiba had a "religious experience" when aikido came to him..

Is aikido worthless? no. There are several wristlocks and techniques that are very good as I have been shown but can be better suited to fighting if applied in a more realistic grappling system.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Most people who havent trained long say that we dont use resisting opponents, but actually we do... u just cant really resist it and its the boduies natural reaction - otherwise things get snapped

half true.

Yes you roll out of the lock as to not break your limb, but the setups are very much scripted.

My judo club shares space with a very large aikido club. I frequently randori with them. They are fish out of water in a live situation. It was comedic (prob the reason they ask us to randori with them to learn things that do work.)

[dezhen2001]

and here we begin with the usual San Shou/BJJ/Judo troll we have come to expect...

fair enough ST00 but i have used it against people in a real encounter and it has worked just fine, also against people who trained kickboxing, karate and other things.

Actually in my own experience aikido and wing chun are what i am comfortable using now and they have served me well.

there are a few others here who also successfully use aikido as part of their repertoire so no big deal.

dawood

[dezhen2001]

thats utter BS!

To begin learning the techniques yes they have been codified and are pretty static, but i dont know about the school you have seen - but we regularly trained with other MA styles and went at each other in a non-scripted manner (depending on your level).

i know many people who train aikido who are police officers, jail wardens and bouncers, who have used the sakill successfully in an alive, real manner.

so there are 2 sides to the story.

dawood

[ShaolinTiger00]

I am not a troll.

I am well aware of the aikido wristlocks used by LEO's but that is where the systems abilty ends.

As a fighting method it is horrible.

Please explain to me why a green belt judoka in my class who had never studied another sport let alone a grappling system, thrash two 5 year+ aikido students in simple randori. I had expected the young aikido man to lambaste my fellow student, but to my utter amazement he fell prey to every basic throw judoboy applied.

By the time I was called to the mat I was giddy with anticipation and I think my opposition was actually scarred...
(Apoweyn, whom had no grappling training before the time we worked out had 2x the balance and common sense to stay on his feet)

But the aikido guys are humble. fanatical, samarai- wanna be's but a very nice group. and we welcome them into our class as often as they can come.

[Golden Arms]

LOL..ok...I am not going to say you are a troll..but in NO WAY do your few experiences happen to invalidate the fact that both Dezhen and Myself HAVE been to good aikido schools, and we both said they are not all that common. I have used it in 2 real situations..one of them involving a knife even..and I came out no worse for wear...and still standing ;) Is it the end all of martial arts? Not more than any other art is...does it work if you train hard and is it proven effective? To me at least, yes... But again, I can see how people think it is not too good because, like tai chi, there are very few people that train it hard, realistic, and long enough to "get it"..

[dezhen2001]

ST00: coulda fooled me man but anywayz... back to the regularly scheduled programme :D

dawood

[Golden Arms]

Oh, and just to get ahead of you ST00 ;) My Sensei WAS a long time judo player before he became an aikido player..he travelled to japan, with no money or food and asked for several months to be allowed as a student to kurita sensei before finally getting the go ahead. I once asked him "how does aikido deal with a jab?" he replied by saying "thow one sometime" Heheh..I did a couple weeks later when he was talking to someone..he wasnt there when it should have hit...Where he WAS was standing on my front foot while he threw me onto the back of my head.

[ShaolinTiger00]

My Sensei WAS a long time judo player before he became an aikido player

Thats the reason why he is such a great aikido teacher.

judo: you push me, I pull you. You pull me, I push you.
aikido: You push me, I turn 180 and push you on your way. You pull me and I enter and push.

Fundamentals are judo. and judo isn't easy!!!!! Good judo is much harder than striking or bjj in my opinion. Only after years of judo can a man/woman fully understand these principles well enough to attempt a more complicated "version" and expect to be successful.

[dezhen2001]

tenkan doesnt need to be done at 180 degrees.. its just moving offline and borrowing the energy...

aikido has its own version of tai otoshi and sumi otoshi as well

dawood

[old jong]

This is why nehandertals were using a simple club to kill their resisting opponents.

[Former castleva]

This thread irritates me,frustrating.
:)

I nearly knew Dezhen or old Jong etc. would come up with informative replies,fortunately.

Dear TzuChan,
you may not want to start a thread like that but now that you have and need information which I understand for long,could you point out some specific or less specific questions?
Theoretical knowledge on the art will not be picked up very quickly but you may enjoy it later... I encourage you to sign up at www.aikidojournal.com if you are even slightly interested (you are pretty sure to end up surrounded by those-who-went-before so to speak) Go to www.aikidofaq.com for good basic information and lots of video clips,then there are many other sites which carry out lots of information.

Do not get disheartened by those who want to bad mouth the art as soon as they hear it´s name being mentioned,you´ll be sure to run to them.

And now about the founder,namae wa Morihei Ueshiba desu.
Just like many famous masters (with Ueshiba probably being among the most famous) there are stories of nearly supernatural feats which we are up to verify,some of them can be rumors.
What I do not deny though,was that the founder was very hard training and skilled invidual.
The falldowns displayed in that clip are unlikely to be another sad demonstration of a fake guru with willing students but rather careful "listening" and display of sensitivity,they are put to fall.


"there are a LOT of "harmonize with the universe, and feel the magical ki flowing through you until you can blast your opponents into the netherworld"

Lol.That´s pretty good. :D

[dezhen2001]

another thing to consider is what type of aikido it is... traditionally there are 3 main 'branches'... to give you some idea:

yoshinkan aikido was created by Usheibas student Gozo Shioda... it is rather more direct and includes a lot of 'atemi' or striking as well as the grappling skills and weapons. basically not so big 'circles'.

tomiki aikido was created by the founders student Kenji Tomiki. they do a lot of partner work and randori to test their technique.

'hombu' aikido is that of usheiba later in his life... it generally has a lot of the "ki" hippies in it - but it can also be d@mn effective if you have a good teacher!

My school was a mixture of yoshinkan and hombu. A lot of time was spent on basic techniques, especially breakfalls so you learn how ot control your centre, and things like footwork. Then we always mixed it up a bit and learned how ot use our skills in a non-cooperative manner. i've used my aikido when i have got mugged, in a club and even when walking in a subway... worked pretty well :)

so again it just depends on the teacher. its definately something worth checking out.

On a practical note... footwork and things are a bit different to wing chun as they turn on the balls of the feet and have longer stances. Also they are never so square on as we are sometimes. its based on the katana so you will probably also od a lot of bokken (wooden sword) and jo (short staff) work. Both very useful :)

good luck with whatever you choose!
dawood

[carly]

Shanghai Aikido school:
http://www.aikido.com.cn/

[[Censored]]

What ability or trait does Aikido train, better than any other method?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

akido is awesome if you can think outside the box. my buddy took less than a year of it and still uses it in medium contact sparring with us all the time. it will occasionally come out hand to hand (especially in the clinch), but he tends to use it most often to escape holds. its hillarious watching someones ****y grin instantly change into a grimace of shock and pain as he manages to pull off a wrist lock unexpectedly.

i'd love to do a year or two of it some day just for the constant break fall work and to get a hang of the wrist locks. to answer the original question, akido definately aint going to hurt. even if you dont make it your main style i bet you'll take what you learn there and put it in everything you do.


" you push me, I pull you. You pull me, I push you."

my sifu says something very similar all the time. could be the juijitsu, but im thinking it comes more from his taichi background. perhaps both.

[dezhen2001]

GDA: its not even so much using the wrist... once you understand it more it just depends on the energy and body position... quite useful sometimes :)

dawood

[old jong]

I used to practice it for a few years in 75/76 or something .It was maybe not the art I was suited best for but this do not mean that I could not use some of it when needed.In fact,I used it many times in my work at the psychiatric hospital. I even use a tenkan footwork associated with a Wing Chun pak sau that was followed by a standing Kata gatame into a o-sotogari type take down to defend "softly" against a patient attack just a few months ago.I could have punched him 835 times in the same times it took me to do all of this but I don't want to hurt patients.And,it is not permited. :D

[dezhen2001]

cool story OJ! :)

i used an aikido/wing chun mix when i was walking in a subway... there was a soccer match and hundreds of ppl walking the other way, i was trying to get to the university library (as i hate soccer and had ot study). Out the corner of my eye i saw someone take a swing at me so defended with something that resembled a bil sau and then moved through with 'tenchin nage' (heaven and earth throw), but instead of projecting out, i brought him to the ground close to me. He had 2 mates so i had him on the ground in between me and them, with my back against the wall.

Thankfully they were all a little drunk and i managed to talk my way out of it. Though the guy on the ground still said that he could of "had" me! :D

Not one of the other people walking past took any notice :(

i had the adrenalin rush afte ri was at the library and my hands couldnt stop shaking for ages after lol :D

dawood

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

dez ... he may understand that better than i do ... or maybe not as he wasn't there very long. i have zeroe experience.

[dezhen2001]

GDA: cool :)

Censored: i wouldnt say it trains anything better than any other skill (that i have done and experienced anyway). But form training i developed: relaxation, structure, body connection, lightness of footwork and stepping... and especially the ability to understand angles and positioning.

Of course now i get these from my wing chun and qigong :)

its taken from using the katana so of course its very different to such things as wing chun or taijiquan, but imo there is a lot of similarity - wing chun isnt exactly straight either, while aikido uses the "dynamic sphere" theory.

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Aikido is good stuff.

There are still some very good Instructors out there.

If you visit the Hombu in Tokyo you can still train under some of Ueshiba's students.

Granted most of them are in their 70's & 80's, but they can still wipe the floor with most kids that reckon aikido doesn't work.

Cheers.

[dezhen2001]

agreed. u can see some pretty cool clips on that aikido faq link posted before... some of those falls - ouch! :eek:

dawood

[Mr Punch]

YAWN at ST00.

Dez, LC and a few others are right.

Sounds like a mantra I've repeated so many times:

1) If you find a good teacher aikido can be very useful.

2) Good teachers are few and far between.

3) I've used aikido in the street, sparring and on the door, and many of my sempai are LEOs/psych nurses/prison wardens and have used it countless times for real.

4) Tsuchan: try it out. If it's no good, stop. And try to understand it doesn't mean the whole system sucks.

5) Let's not have any delusions here: you can probably substitute any martial art's name for 'aikido' in the above (except perhaps the tested and regulated BJJ).

[dezhen2001]

wondered if u would show up mate :)
regarding my subway story - im sure u know what its like for a wolves home game :p

dawood

[Cheese Dog]

Dezhen2001; great story and a good job!

Tzuchan, try it out if you can. A friend of mine has studied aikido for a few years, and I have been able to visit his aikido school once so far. If you have a good teacher aikido is great for footwork and standing grappling and throws. The only downside to aikido that I see is that I think it takes longer to be effective for self-defense than most styles. Of cource, if you already have a grounding in another style, that wouldn't be a problem. If you need to fight just use your Wing Tsun! (Until you get good at the aikido.)

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by carly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antwerp
Victor Kan Classical Ving Tsun Kung Fu
Tel: +32/ 0486 796154 or +352/(0)91 382897
Web: www.vingtsunvk.com
Notes: affiliated with Sifu Victor Kan.
Update: 16nov02
Nederlandse Wing Chun Kung Fu Federatie
Belgielei 99 Stedelijke Basisschool
Tel: 03 4545705
Email: federatie@wingchun.nl
Web: www.wingchun.nl
Notes: Maandag 19.30-21.30
Bornem
Wing Tsun in Bornem
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Bree
Wing Tsun in Bree
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Braschaat
Wing Tsun in Braschaat
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Brussels
Académie de kung fu wing chun traditionnel
55 rue du Brochet 1050 Bruxelles
Tel: 0477/57 38 40
Contact: Sifu Laurent Aoute
Notes: Cours le Lundi 20h00 à 21h30, Mardi 18h30 à 20h00, Vendredi 18h30 à 20h30, Samedi 12h30 à 14h00.
AMOK Club of Wing Chun and Kali
Rue Crickx 31, 1060 Brussels
Tel: 0032 2 537 08 07 (voice mail)
Fax: 0032 2 538 61 02
Email: amokclub@yahoo.com
Web: www.members.tripod.com/~asblcesar
Contact: Es Samri Aziz or Thauvoy Jesabel
Notes: Wing Chun and Kali-Arnis-Escrima.
Victor Kan Classical Ving Tsun Kung Fu
Tel: +32/ 0486 796154 or +352/(0)91 382897
Web: www.vingtsunvk.com
Notes: affiliated with Sifu Victor Kan.
Update: 16nov02
Wing Tsun in Brussels
Tel: 02-2304749
Contact: Ralph Rahders
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie). Affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Charleroi
Tang Shun Ping Wing Chun Kuen
Charleroi, Hainaut, Belgium
Tel: +32 486 16.38.98
Email: fabrizio.nicosia@skynet.be
Web: www.ving-tsun.be.tf
Contact: Fabrizio NICOSIA
Notes: Member of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association.
Update: 6oct02
Deurne
Wing Tsun in Deurne
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Geel
Wing Tsun in Geel
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Gent
Wing Tsun in Gent
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Hasselt
Wing Tsun in Hasselt
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Leopoldsburg
Wing Tsun in Leopoldsburg
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Lier
Kon. Julianalaan 8, 2678 ED, De Lier
Tel: 0174-510884
Contact: Jan Pieter Boekestijn, Level 10 (Instructor)
Notes: affiliated with WWCKFA.
Meeuwen
Wing Tsun in Meeuwen
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Mol
Wing Tsun in Mol
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Sint-Niklaas
Wing Tsun in Sint-Niklaas
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Tongerlo
Wing Tsun in Tongerlo
Tel: 089-473038
Contact: Sifu Ernst Krause
Notes: Part of the VWTO (Vlaamse Wing Tsun Organisatie), affiliated with the IWTMAA and EWTO.
Use our form to add or update your school. Listing does not imply endorsement by wingchun

You think I don't know these exist or something ? A 45 minute drive by car, is just not doable on my bike my friend ... The closest one to my House is the one from Ralph Rahders, cool dude, but now it would take me two hours to get their on my lousy bike, and since I have classes till 18h, and the lesson starts at 19h, I'm pooped =/

[TzuChan]

Look, it's mentioned a couple of times right, the only thing that seems cool about aikido are the wrist locks, they should come in handy alot I guess. But let's say I want to do it for one year, don't I have to buy those overexpensive robes to parade in then ? :p

[TzuChan]

Btw I'm not quite buying the 'willing student crap' I mean that's the same with every MA, only after haven done it a thousand times in class, with a more or less willing fellow student, will you MAYBE remember what to do in a street fight on a not so willing d!ck =]

But what I'm kinda worried about with Aikido is that it kinda looks like Judo, and it's just my personal taste, but having done Judo, it was extremely boring and not at all what I was looking for .. I mean the grappling ****, I really don't wanne start grappling somewhere in the subway, I just wanne work the dude's chin and run away like a monkey :D I mean I even rent some aikido books to see what it was like, and it was all 'defending', and absolutely no punches involved ..

And now you guys say Aikido + Judo training, and that the styles even train togheter, that just scares me away =]

[Mr Punch]

So don't ****in try it then!:confused:

:D

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by TzuChan
Originally posted by carly
blah blah blah

You ... =/

and how about learning the art of shortening already pointless quotes???!!! :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
wondered if u would show up mate :)
regarding my subway story - im sure u know what its like for a wolves home game :p

dawood

Course I would mate!

Course I do mate! The last Blues vs Wolves home derby my bro told me about involved a running battle three miles through B'ham city centre between the Zulus and the Wolvos... sticks, chains, bricks, shivs... wankers!:eek:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
...
If you visit the Hombu in Tokyo you can still train under some of Ueshiba's students.

Granted most of them are in their 70's & 80's, but they can still wipe the floor with most kids that reckon aikido doesn't work.


Some of them suck too, unfortunately!

[dezhen2001]

Tzu Chuan: its not all so "defensive"... some of the basic techniques are pretty nasty, especially nikkyo, kote gaeshi and tenchin nage... the last 2 are really powerful throws and are really d@mn direct!

Its not at all like judo... youre not standing there grabbing each other and trying to wrassle (i know judos not like that just trying to get my point across :rolleyes: ), youre moving around out the way of strikes and if someone grabs you then u move... footwork is very important also the flow of the technique.

Like i said too, in my school we also did a lot of striking weak places, usually as the person is coming in or you pull them on to it so it could really be pretty nasty :D

why not go watch a class, see what they do and talk to the teacher about it?

As for the training clothes, u dont need the big black skirt till you are black belt or above... the rest only cost like $30 at the most and u can even train without those. once u do start dealing with the grabbing on the lapel or whatever though the suits are worthwhile getting so t-shirts dont get ripped :)


Btw I'm not quite buying the 'willing student crap' I mean that's the same with every MA, only after haven done it a thousand times in class, with a more or less willing fellow student, will you MAYBE remember what to do in a street fight on a not so willing d!ck =] good! finally someone says the obvious! :)

one thing i would say is dont treat it as "something to do while im away from WT", treat it as a skill in its own right - otherwise you wont get the best benefit from it.

dawood

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I am not a troll.
I agree with a lot of your posts, so I hope not, cos then I'm one too!! :D


I am well aware of the aikido wristlocks used by LEO's but that is where the systems abilty ends.
NEWSFLASH. The wristlocks ONLY work for LEOs!!! Anybody who really wants to take your head off is probably gonna break out of a lot of them. Most people who get locked by an LEO will realise that the cavalry's on the way, they're in deep ****, and they don't really go through with the attack proper. Use one of those wristlocks for pain compliance on a judo-based/BJJ grappler, on a WCer in chi sao or anyone else with even halfway decent fighting skills in the street and you get stomped. Tried it. Got stomped. And I'm good! :D

NEWSFLASH 2. The famous aikido wristlocks are not wristlocks. They are methods to gain a structural advantage, or to break something, shortly, sharply and quickly.


As a fighting method it is horrible.
It is a whole martial system. It is not 'a method'. People who teach the wristlocks as such are bad teachers.


Please explain to me why a green belt judoka in my class who had never studied another sport let alone a grappling system, thrash two 5 year+ aikido students in simple randori.
The aikidoka were crap.


But the aikido guys are humble. fanatical, samarai- wanna be's but a very nice group. and we welcome them into our class as often as they can come.
A lot of them are.

An example of crap aikido:
aikido: You push me, I turn 180 and push you on your way. You pull me and I enter and push.




Good post Dawood.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by [Censored]
What ability or trait does Aikido train, better than any other method?

Manipulating the joints in the arms to cause pain, dislocation or advantageous positions. I suppose 'good' :rolleyes:chin-na would give you something similar.

Very good evasive footwork. Again there are other arts that can give you evasive footwork, in a different way. Aikido evasive footwork works as well as that of many other arts for many people... with a 'good' teacher.:rolleyes:

Strong throws. 'good':rolleyes: judo, 'good' :rolleyes: JJ, 'good' :rolleyes: SC should give you good throws too... but they are... brace yourself... different...!:rolleyes:

[dezhen2001]

which post? :D


Please explain to me why a green belt judoka in my class who had never studied another sport let alone a grappling system, thrash two 5 year+ aikido students in simple randori.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The aikidoka were crap. good answer! :D Thats a randori problem and teaching problem not an aikido problem. i have used it quite successfully against other styles - even kickboxing.


I am well aware of the aikido wristlocks used by LEO's but that is where the systems abilty ends. it obviously did for you :) Thankfully for us we know aikido is not limited to immobilizations which can be nasty if done right - but also many throws and projections not even using the wrist at all :)

dawood

[TzuChan]

k, if you don't HAVE to buy all the clothes (cause they ARE expensive) at once then it definatelly it wont hurt (I kinda hope it does lol) to take a look =] I'm also gonne search for Wushu/TJQ school, I'll try to do both, I'm sure it wont **** up my progress from separate styles, at least I hope so =]

[dezhen2001]

it depends on the school of course, but to be honest they are worthwhile to buy after a month or 2 coz once you start grabbing the upper body u need somehting strong orit will get ripped.

good luck! :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

Back to these no-touch throws. What's going on here? Is the guy just keeping you way overcommitted and continuing to lure you into twisted up positions until you fall down? 'Cause that's the only semi-plausible explanation I can come up with, and I can't imagine anyone even semi-savvy falling for it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

This is why nehandertals were using a simple club to kill their resisting opponents.

Possibly the smartest thing ever written on this forum, despite the spelling error.


I respect everyones opinion about aikido. I speak from my own experience. If you say you've seen good aikido then I believe you but I haven't. I've seen aikido that looked good. It works well against another aikido guy ( I could take a tangent here about wing chun and why it only works against other guys who try to trap arms but... let's not.;) ) but when it came time to practice against opposition that wasn't using aikido, they could not.

To each his own.

The aikido guys I know aren't a "tough" crowd. they're not nearly as interested in fighting as they are reveling in all that is bushido and zen like. I think a modern person studys aikido not for the fighting aspect but as more of a cultural experience. Similar to many who seek kungfu.

[old jong]

Nehandertals?...neandertals?...Anyway!...
These guys are supposed to be extinct.Why ?... Because their crude technology could not compete with the more sophiscated means of our cro-magnon ancestors who were using more versatile throwing weapons and were avoiding grappling with wild buffalos or cave bears.
Sometimes it is good to sidestep a wooly rhino. (very resisting opponent IMHO)
Back to our regular programming! ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

were avoiding grappling with wild buffalos or cave bears

Are you advocating chain-punching or lop-sauing them ?

two can be silly.

[old jong]

No!.. but ,I was not advocating pulling the cave bear into closed guard!...;) Or, using harai goshi on the rhino or...A thai kick on a mammoth trunk or...A scissor kick on a sabretooth tiger....;)

[dezhen2001]

CSN: i have never seen a no touch throw at alll im afraid. BUT i have seen someone just get thrown from as soon as they grab something for example the lapel or arm, with the smallest movement i have ever seen. its just being able to take the persons centre and control their energy, nothing more - its the same with the taijiquan demonstrations and when you get good at pushing hands i guess. Also one of the old clips of usheiba sensei basically shows him tapping a guys chin with his hand and him falling over. The attack is rather commited but its showing the concept of borrowing energy and the right angle and timing.

ST00: you seem intent on causing an argument yet again, aikido didnt work so oh - now lets try wing chun. Thankfully those of us who train know that we dont seek to trap arms :)

OJ: i wouldnt try to fight those creatures either ;)

dawood

[[Censored]]

Censored: i wouldnt say it trains anything better than any other skill (that i have done and experienced anyway). But form training i developed: relaxation, structure, body connection, lightness of footwork and stepping... and especially the ability to understand angles and positioning.

Personally, I would characterize Aikido as a grab-bag of mediocre skills. JKD for sissies. :) But if you find an instructor that can handle him/herself, maybe that's good enough.

Aikido's greatest strength is in stepping back. Otherwise, it's nothing special.

[tedward]

the reason that so many prison guards, police officers and phsch nurses etc choose to train in aikido is the philosophy behind - the best result of a fight is one where no one ends up hurt.

And there in lies the problem, aikido is very philisophical (and as such generally practised by 'academics mainly - look at all the aikido websites out there) you have to get rid of all of your testosterone before trying it out.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Now would be an excellent time to point out my recent thread about Police officers getting taken to the ground 60% of the time in situations where suspects fought them.
There's a fine example of aikido in reality. :rolleyes:


dezhen - I am not alone in my contempt for WC. it's even mocked in the CMA community. but that is for another thread... another time.

[old jong]

Your "Ralek" side is showing up more and more!

BJJ is superior...Remember?...:rolleyes:

[Former castleva]

I have seen numerous stories of aikido working.
To be the art for Japanese riot police among so many peeps besides,and an art which has techniques/principles adopted by many smaller and big arts (like American kenpo) is somewhat of a worthy note.
I´ll just let the facts talk for themselves.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, but when was the last time you heard of a Japanese riot? I thought Japanese riots were pretty much equivalent to american line-dancing.

[carly]

aikido students who went out and got drunk after graduating from their black belt ceremony, and they got into a big brawl, and all of them used wild flailing punches to fight.

[Golden Arms]

Chang Style Novice: Yeah, you are pretty close to one way those throws can be done...you really have to feel it to see how it works though..but a lot of it is based on a similar thing to this: If you get bumped unexpectedly, you take a quick step or reposition your foot to regain your balance..but during that time before your foot resets you can be moved VERY easily...now combine that with some deceptive footwork that allows you to make your opponent very tempted to slightly overcommit their strike/shoot/grab whatever to get it to work well and you start to get the idea of where this stuff comes from...or put it this way, if you were running at night and at the last second you realized you were about to be impaled on a branch you would probably either 1)fall, or 2)get impaled if it was too late...that is a similar feeling I guess.

To whoever said the best thing about it is stepping back...a lot of the nastier aikido is stepping IN to an attack...tell me that doesnt take b@lls. ;) it trains your "listening/body positioning" skills pretty well, and a cool part of it for me was learning how to counter armbars, throws, wristlocks, etc if you have better root and can build up the sensitivity to do so..I think aikido is a lot about building up your timing, proper posture, and sense of where to move come to think of it...nothing revolutionary, just a cool approach to it :)

[dezhen2001]

ST00: u seem to want to start another style vs. style argument so you can preach your own san shou/bjj/judo rehtoric like usual... im not biting coz i cant be bothered.

The more i read your posts the more i am starting to think that old jong is perhaps right. Maybe u feel more comfortable now there is more san shou/mma peeps on here or something?

CSN: if you have ever read the book "angry white pyjamas" its about a westerner who goes ot japan to train with the riot police. Its a very enlightening book! those guys are hard as!

carly: thats old news... when people are drunk then they suck no matter what skill you have trained. aikido DOES use strikes, and some can be very nasty if done properly. Styles like shorinji kempo and many others share some commonality with aikido and they are very effective too.

oops - they dont contain groundfighting either so i guess that makes them worthless :rolleyes:

dawood

[ShaolinTiger00]

oldjong -sorry pal. I'm not Ralek. never was, never will.

only Kendo, Judo and firearms instruction are the officially recognized methods of self-defense within the police force units in Japan.
Judo is the art of the Japanese Police and one of the most brutal dojos in Japan is the judo dojo of the Tokyo Police Dept. It was here that judo had to pass the acid test as a legitamite art.



Aikido in riot control... give me a shield and a stick!

Every police force may have some "special training" just as the military has many types of martial artists come in to instruct, but there is only one system of h2h that every cadet and every active student MUST train on a weekly basis.

[ShaolinTiger00]

im not biting coz i cant be bothered.

= "God **** you're right ST, you always back up your information with credibility and facts and always explain things in a simple manner that even a chimp could comprehend. I'm hopelessly wrong, but too proud to admit the a$skicking that I take.

No worries mate. I understand.

:)

[dezhen2001]

LOL! youre a funny guy, and yup u could for sure kick my ass, no biggie :)

dawood

[Golden Arms]

LOL..Dezhen, its a good thing you know Aikido..that way you can "harmonize" with him while he is kicking your Butt with the ONLY martial arts combo in the world that is effective for anything...everyone knows that practicing things like punching,kicking, and throwing are useless and only make you worse at them. The true martial are is to never train, just use your haymaker that you learn when you are 5, and then cross train that with BJJ and san shou ;)

[dezhen2001]

LOL! :D

dawood

[Former castleva]

I wonder if we should quit this thread from this point.
Having seen how constructive they can become.TzuChan does not seem to hold further questions.

[ShaolinTiger00]

throw in judo, wrestling, sambo, & boxing for good measure.


MMA haters.:p

[Golden Arms]

;) good one ST00....again I will say this...I dont always agree with you one what doesnt work...but we agree on what does work..no nonsense :)

[Sho]

Former castleva, why do you have so long signature? It gets in the way! :D

[dezhen2001]

maybe his sig has a mor eimportant message than his posts? :D but still, sould make the text a smaller size so its not so assuming :)

dawood

[Sho]

Hehe, yea, or maybe he should make a separate website for his signature and just specify the address instead. :D

[dezhen2001]

LOL! it would probably take up the allocated free space on all the isp :p

dawood

[carly]

I agree with the other about the length of your sig - if you muslitply 1,400 posts times your signature, just think of how much bandwidth it takes up on the website:)

[Sho]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
LOL! it would probably take up the allocated free space on all the isp :p:D Even if they provided him with unlimited storage space.

[Former castleva]

How do I look?

[apoweyn]

*Closed due to complaints*

Okay, that's excellent. Well played. :)

[dezhen2001]

LOL! :D

shame though there were some good words there. u could just have made the text smaller by having at either side of it all i think? :)

dawood

[[Censored]]

To whoever said the best thing about it is stepping back...a lot of the nastier aikido is stepping IN to an attack...tell me that doesnt take b@lls.

Yes, they also practice stepping in, and they generally do a poor job of it. Because they don't know how to attack well, they don't have the information necessary to refine their entry techniques. So even if they don't walk into a fist, they walk into an elbow or knee.

They do have a strong grip, though. :rolleyes:

[dezhen2001]

oops! i meant put (SIZE=2) (/SIZE) but use [ and ] instead of the ( and )... that shoudl make the text smaller.

[Sho]

Hey Former castleva! I didn't mean you to take it so seriously, but now that you've done it - looks good. :D

[carly]

anybody who wants a good read on a westerner learning MAs and simply surviving in Tokyo shoulkd read "aAngry White Pyjamas" by Andrew Twigger, an Englishman who spent a year at the Yoshinkan Hombu dojo.

[Former castleva]

Heh. :)
This is the biggest amount of posts directed to me in a thread ever so I suppose it was worthy.

[kenso]

I hesitated to get involved here, but here goes.
It has been said Aikido techniques don't work. The response has been that the ones applying said techniques were not good Aikidoka.

IMHO Aikido technique is some of the most difficult and subtle to master. Many of the movements are actually counter-intuitive. One's natural reaction to having a strike thrown at one's face is usually to block it. This is intuitive. To blend with the attack and reposition oneself advantageously without ever blocking the strike or colliding with the opponent is challenging, to use an understatement. For this reason Aiki technique is both difficult to master and tremendously effective when mastered. It is unfortunate that the popularity of this art has diluted the quality of instruction available to the masses. There are many instructors out there who have never even trained in the art itself. They are former judoka, karateka, and jujutsuka (some have little to no training at all, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) who have read a few books, attended a seminar or two, and found a niche they can exploit. You can blame it on Steven Seagal movies, or the growth of the art itself.

Aikido prior to WWII was Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Ueshiba Morihei sensei was one of the premier martial artists of his generation. Kano Jigoro sensei sent him some of the finest judoka of the Kodokan to study this art. In the midst of WWII, Ueshiba sensei went into seclusion at Iwama. After the war, his senior students begged him back into teaching, but he transformed the art from a tremendously effective martial art into a tremendously effective way to reach out to people and have them learn alternative ways to deal with conflict (wrapped in the underpinnings of a tremendously effective martial art). This has evolved with the introduction of what I call Aiki hippies, who have removed most of the martial content in the art to the point where many Aikidoka can't even throw a decent punch (because only BAD people punch other people, 'mmkay?).

[fragbot]

Originally posted by kenso
[B]I hesitated to get involved here, but here goes.
It has been said Aikido techniques don't work. The response has been that the ones applying said techniques were not good Aikidoka.


In many ways, aikido and TJQ suffer from a similar problem. Fascinating, devastating, and almost super-natural arts for a small percentage of practitioners. However, of the practitioners I've met, too many of them had too poor a payout for their training time (using self-defense capability as a guide).

Likewise, both were mostly ruined by a flood of people looking to fill some weird kind of spiritual void. People who'd rather drip pseudo-philosophy from their beak than pour sweat out of their pores.




Not that it matters to the validity of your point, but I'd argue ducking and moving out of the way are equally intuitive.

[quote]
Aikido prior to WWII was Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Ueshiba Morihei sensei was one of the premier martial artists of his generation. Kano Jigoro sensei sent him some of the finest judoka of the Kodokan to study this art.


Bagua's founder supposedly only taught people who'd already mastered another system. As such, Bagua could appropriately be viewed as a finishing school for martial artists. I wonder if aikido and, for that matter, TJQ should be in the same boat.

Put another way, what percentage of the aikido people who are competent have a strong base in something else? Or, conversely, how many top-notch aikido people started with aikido?



This has evolved with the introduction of what I call Aiki hippies, who have removed most of the martial content in the art to the point where many Aikidoka can't even throw a decent punch (because only BAD people punch other people, 'mmkay?).

An aiki friend of mine uses the term "Aiki Bunnies."

As a tad snotty aside, has anyone ever seen a Ki Society school that trained realistically?

[Mr Punch]

Good post kenso. You took enough time to explain the side of aiki that I don't think many people here will comprehend... except [Censored] who knows everything about it.:rolleyes:

And in case anybody actually has any interest in aiki other than the trolls... (and congrats ST00, someone finally managed to wind up Dawood!!!:eek: ... the unthinkable!)...


CSN
Back to these no-touch throws. What's going on here? Is the guy just keeping you way overcommitted and continuing to lure you into twisted up positions until you fall down?
Do we have to?

Either the guy is keeping you way overcommitted and continuing to lure you into twisted up positions until you fall down (to the sounds of the Blue Danube, or rushing wind - and I'm not saying where from! :rolleyes:)...

or alternatively, the guy being 'thrown' is a **** who can't fight :eek: ... I know which one I'm voting for.


Dawood
BUT i have seen someone just get thrown from as soon as they grab something for example the lapel or arm, with the smallest movement i have ever seen. its just being able to take the persons centre and control their energy, nothing more - its the same with the taijiquan demonstrations and when you get good at pushing hands i guess. Also one of the old clips of usheiba sensei basically shows him tapping a guys chin with his hand and him falling over.
Depends on how small the movement is. Nobody has ever pulled off one of those grab-my-shoulder,i-twitch-you-fly-over-there gags on me either. I just don't buy it.

A lot of the old clips of Ueshiba show a bunch of sycophantic deluded trained monkeys running at him like Scooby-doo presenting a bunch of flowers in a hurry and tripping over their hakama... in fact, I've seen a lot of clips of Ueshiba as the old white-bearded Yoda-type floating through wafting clouds of 'attackers', but I've never seen footage of him that did justice of his fearsome legendary fighting skills...

maybe they were just legendary, but as Kenso pointed towards, U's training was primarily in Daito-ryu, and by the time he came back from active duty in Mongolia and other places it seems he was spending a lot of time running away from the Daito-ryu grandmaster who was by that time a borderline psychotic nationalist who followed him around, installing himself in each of U's new houses, breaking his arms on a fairly regular basis. It's no wonder he eventually chose to run away to Iwama and turn into a pacifist hippy farmer, diluting his own martial art into the watery crap that you mostly see nowadays (although in non-martial terms please see Kenso's excellent explanation of the transformation! :D).

TECHNIQUE TIP: if you time your defence well it is an attack (or as I prefer to think, if you hit somebody with the right timing it can defend you quite well!:eek: ). So in most styles you will get this:
...Also one of the old clips of usheiba sensei basically shows him tapping a guys chin with his hand and him falling over... Is this a secret? A point of contention? If you hit someone on the chin at the right time and with good body structure to deliver it, they will have a good chance of falling over... Come on kids, you've all done it... well there's your 'no-touch' 'throw'!!!:rolleyes:

You can call it The attack is rather commited but its showing the concept of borrowing energy and the right angle and timing.
or you can call it a punch in the face!

I'm not having a knock at you Dawood, I'm just saying the semantics of aiki are part of the reason why it has such a fairy image. If you use aiki concepts in sparring, you are trying to maneuvre your opponent into a mistimed or misjudged attack, or you are stepping in strongly and committedly and initiating an over-reaction, and if there is none, taking advantage of your position. If your teaching this to some street kid or a brawler, you show them, and 'punch them in the face'...! The demonstration gives them the frame of reference to understand what you are then going to explain... and the ultimate distillation of non-grappling techniques is a strike... KISS!

At the ideal the mechanism is well described by Golden Arms above (great post... your answer to CSN...:)), but I have only experienced this a couple of times, and have only pulled it off against putzes with no attacking skills.

So in short, if you were here, I'd show you. Then, when you'd come round/got your breath back, we could hug and talk about it!

[

[Mr Punch]

ST00
Now would be an excellent time to point out my recent thread about Police officers getting taken to the ground 60% of the time in situations where suspects fought them :rolleyes:.
There's a fine example of aikido in reality.
Your point is...?

The 'good' aikidoka I know are perfectly happy on the ground (I don't know many...:eek:)

Speedily introducing people to the ground is not unheard of in aikido :D

and from the other side...:

getting taken to the ground in aiki often involves controlling the fall to land advantageously (ie, on top/to the side - we practise no guard like BJJ) and/or getting into a kneeling position. If you don't understand the martial dynamics of a kneeling position please find a teacher or just try it. I could try to explain it to you I suppose... :rolleyes:

It's an element of groundwork that is often overlooked by BJJ and other grappling arts, though it can still be found in some JJJ, and a lot of other JMA. And no, it's not an ideal position, or one you strive for, but can be as effective as a BJJ guard I would say. It's stable against takedowns (you are already down!) and for delivering strikes, you keep a lot of speed and 'footwork', and you have a good degree of control of choice of whether to stand up or grapple on the ground. Those of you into ring-fighting, think about your beloved UFCs and and Pride... even those untrained in suwari-waza often end up in it albeit briefly, and if they could capitulate on it it would help a lot.

I'm not saying kneeling is the be-all and end-all, nor the be-all and end-all of aiki, but it's another tool to add to groundwork and takedowns.

This is true:
ST00
only Kendo, Judo and firearms instruction are the officially recognized methods of self-defense within the police force units in Japan.

as of three years ago. Before then Yoshinkan aikido was too. As I understand it from the guys at Yoshinkan here, this is because the drop-out rate from the riot-police course was too high, so the recruits were failing to pass their basic training. Does this suggest a martial art lacking in practicality?... maybe it's just sadistic...!:eek:

So, anyway, ironically it appears they watered down the police course to make it less damaging to the trainees and lost the contract as it was then seen as ineffective...!!! ****ed if you do, and ****ed if you don't!

All the same, there is a big police dojo across the road from where I used to work, and most of what they practise there is... aikido!

[Mr Punch]

Pointless exercise I know but...
[Censored]
Aikido's greatest strength is in stepping back. Otherwise, it's nothing special.
Yes, they also practice stepping in, and they generally do a poor job of it. Because they don't know how to attack well, they don't have the information necessary to refine their entry techniques. So even if they don't walk into a fist, they walk into an elbow or knee.


they... who the **** are these chimps you keep talking about [Censored]? I've practised with a lot of aikidoka whose footwork would put many boxers/thaiboxers to shame, and I've sparred with boxers who are perfectly capable of walking into any punch I throw at them... What the **** is your point?

I would have thought THE most valuable information necessary to refine your entry technique is that if you don't refine it, your gonna get clocked every time. Agreed, if they are practising against weak 'attacks' all the time they won't have the experience of getting clocked all the time... but here we have THEY VS The GOOD (TM) X-stylist again.

Since we are trying to help this guy find the points to look for in a good aiki school so he doesn't waste his time, and you don't seem to have any experience of these, perhaps you'd be better off maybe not making an ass of yourself explaining your lack of any useful experience, or explain to him what to look out for in bad schools...


fragbot
As a tad snotty aside, has anyone ever seen a Ki Society school that trained realistically?
You are jokin?! LOL :D These must be the schools that [Censored] went to...!


CSN
Yeah, but when was the last time you heard of a Japanese riot? I thought Japanese riots were pretty much equivalent to american line-dancing.
LOL :D... the non-resisting opponents eh?! Probably quite true, but just because Japanese sword and karate techniques were tested on definitely non-resisting POWs, doesn't mean their limbs didn't come off and they didn't die...:eek:

But anyway, one of my sempai back home trains the Dutch and UK riot police in aiki... they seem quite useful...

[dezhen2001]

holy cr@p you posted a lot matt! fingers still ok? :D

(and congrats ST00, someone finally managed to wind up Dawood!!!:eek: ... the unthinkable!)... LOL! its one of the few times someone trolling has got the better of me :(

Hey matt... i wasnt talking about a no-touch throw - just pointing out that a good smack in the chin makes people fall over! im pretty much of the same mind as you.

As for the small movement control, well its happened to me at certain times, even similarly in chi sau but its slightly different. Not many people have been able to do that to me either :)

dawood

[kenso]

I like to think of those "no touch throws" as a conditioned response. Uke (the one who falls) attacks and is blasted to the mat. Over the course of several hundred repetitions, he learns to blend with the technique so it doesn't blast him and doesn't hurt him. The no touch throw is as much an example of uke's sensitivity as it is nage's power. You couldn't do it with a novice or a stranger; they're not sensitive enough. For them you would simply apply technique to and let them work it out. :D

As for resisting or non-resisting opponents; again, Aiki technique is very difficult to apply. It requires sensitivity and relaxation. Therefore techniques are learned in a cooperative manner. Feedback (ie resistance) should be increased as technique improves. If I'm working with a novice, I will fall perfectly for them. I will improve their technique by showing them what the technique is supposed to feel like. I don't allow them to push on me. Later, when they've improved, I will gradually add resistance. At intermediate levels, I will just stop their technique entirely if done improperly, then have them back up slightly to work out that spot. At advanced levels I will reverse the technique if done improperly. At that level I expect them to be able to reconstruct what went wrong in their minds. Different schools have different ideas about resistance; heck they even have different ideas about what constitutes resistance. Everyone thinks they have the answers, and by and large everyone has something to contribute.

[Former castleva]

Good post.

"I like to think of those "no touch throws" as a conditioned response."

What Pavlov noticed while studying the physiology of gastro-enterology?
:D

[kenso]

More or less. "Uh-oh, here comes his hand, it must be time to fall down now". :D

[Golden Arms]

Kenso said it perfectly, its about your sensitivity, and if you dont fall, you will get your eyes speared, your face smashed, or you will "just" get thrown anyways...half of aikido is being the one who gets the technique done on you (uke) as you learn a huge amount from trying to get out of something and seeing how the correctly executed movement prevents you from doing so.

[carly]

LOL!

[Former castleva]

One thing I must add is that there´s the difference (as previously indicated) between taken a fall by will or taken for relative safety.
Resisting a lock/throw may lead to dislocation or related injury,while in "willing possession" :D you hit the ground in order to prevent worse damage,hopefully with ukemi.

[greendragon]

aikido is dynamic. I have been in kung fu over 30 years and now I am in aikido. There are many similarities from hsing-i and pa-kua. Aikido has given me a wider perspective on what i already new and enhanced it exponentially. Some of the footwork is profound such as "tenkan". Those no-touch throws are simply expert timing, taking the attacker's balance.
It should be obvious why attackers roll with the techniques. If they didn't it would be snap-crackle-pop. Also there are the pressure points just like taught in advanced hard styles. I think Aikidos greatest value is for the cross trainer as it does not immediately address hard combat, the student should supplement their training with kicks and fighting strategy.
Old Jong said Aikido has not been proven in UFC, etc. LOL any advanced martial artist knows full contact is a joke !! What loser has the intent to mame or kill someone for sport ? only an unenlightened criminal. You guys want to flame me for this statement ? go ahead and defend your position. how can a black sash fight for real and not **** up the opponent?
Anyway, maybe i was just lucky to get a good Aikido sensei. Maybe i was just lucky to learn Tai Chi Chuan that works on the street. Dragons are lucky.

[dezhen2001]

well mate ur gonna get flamed for some of what you said, but hey - at least you said it :)

take it easy,
dawood

[kenso]

Originally posted by greendragon
aikido is dynamic. I have been in kung fu over 30 years and now I am in aikido. There are many similarities from hsing-i and pa-kua. Aikido has given me a wider perspective on what i already new and enhanced it exponentially. Some of the footwork is profound such as "tenkan". Those no-touch throws are simply expert timing, taking the attacker's balance.
It should be obvious why attackers roll with the techniques. If they didn't it would be snap-crackle-pop. Also there are the pressure points just like taught in advanced hard styles. I think Aikidos greatest value is for the cross trainer as it does not immediately address hard combat, the student should supplement their training with kicks and fighting strategy.
Old Jong said Aikido has not been proven in UFC, etc. LOL any advanced martial artist knows full contact is a joke !! What loser has the intent to mame or kill someone for sport ? only an unenlightened criminal. You guys want to flame me for this statement ? go ahead and defend your position. how can a black sash fight for real and not **** up the opponent?
Anyway, maybe i was just lucky to get a good Aikido sensei. Maybe i was just lucky to learn Tai Chi Chuan that works on the street. Dragons are lucky.
I'm glad you're enjoying your Aikido training. Are you still taking Tai Chi? Which style of Tai Chi? For that matter which style of Aikido?

FYI, I'm pretty sure Old Jong was kidding about the UFC; he was facetiously using an argument that has been used against TCMA on this board. The verasimilitude of modern sport combatives has been argued to death here and on many other boards. To say that full contact training is a joke is definitely inviting either a serious flaming or a troll label (or even both). I don't think the majority of the fighters who participate in these events has the intent to maim or kill their opponents; they have a strong desire to prove themselves in their chosen venue. They are elite athletes competing at an elite level. You or I would be lucky to last one minute in a fight with any of them.
How can a black sash fight for real and not [bleep] up the opponent? Hmm...interesting variation on the old "our technique is too deadly to practice in sport" argument. A black sash can easily fight and not [bleep] up their opponent if they come from a school that doesn't really train their students to fight. If they never get to practice their "deadly" techniques at more than half speed. If they are more worried about how their forms look and rank advancement.

[greendragon]

I am not saying that martial arts cannot be practised as sport, but that ends up with the most aggressive winning, the one who is nasty enough to push the rules. It all gets back to intent. I agree that i might get hurt trying to fight one of these sport fighters, but on the street it is that knowing i would get hurt that motivates me to move hard and fast. Although i may be a "KungFu hippie", i have no trouble flipping on the switch of intent. I have been in real fights and can tell you it is not that easy to do. Sometimes a well executed strike to a vital target can just plain fail, especially if the attacker is on crack or meth. The best defense is clear thinking. Putting myself at risk for sport would not be clear thinking and negative intentions would corrupt my beautiful hippie aura. The most advanced training in KungFu is the healing arts not combat. But that's another thread.
Back to the topic of this thread (Aikido), I am really starting to appreciate the Japanese swordplay style (Boken) but still having trouble adapting the staff (Jo) style as the chinese way seems better.

[[Censored]]

they... who the **** are these chimps you keep talking about [Censored]? I've practised with a lot of aikidoka whose footwork would put many boxers/thaiboxers to shame, and I've sparred with boxers who are perfectly capable of walking into any punch I throw at them... What the **** is your point?

The point is to examine the training method. Not to hold up a small handful of examples of talented Aikido players, and conclude therefore that Aikido is worth practicing. They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

I don't feel any need to name the "chimps" I've met, they were generally very nice people. They just don't know, or don't care to train properly.

Since we are trying to help this guy find the points to look for in a good aiki school so he doesn't waste his time, and you don't seem to have any experience of these, perhaps you'd be better off maybe not making an ass of yourself explaining your lack of any useful experience, or explain to him what to look out for in bad schools...

What is "useless experience"?

In a good Aikido school, practitioners are as good at attacking as at receiving, and they practice BOTH to a conclusion. Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough for you.

In a bad Aikido school, they don't learn to attack well, because "that's what the bad people do and Aikido is for good".

[Mr Punch]

Sorry, looked back over my post and found it to be more rantish than I intended... was in haste as usual...

I wasn't holding up the skilled minority and using that as proof of the validity of the art. In fact, if you look at my posts, I continually stress that there are only a very few good teachers/schools, and I have constantly examined the training method, as well as that of the many other arts I've tried.

The training method in aiki generally sucks. I am not arguing that point.

However, you were saying that you doubted the whole style based on your observations of bad players, so I was asking you to clarify for the original gentleman why you felt they were bad. Thank you for doing so.

I didn't want you to name anyone. It was rhetorical question. I know the mindset of a lot of aiki stylists.

But I do think that the THEY (TM) as representations of bad stylists and therefore a bad style, are becoming as much of a joke in these discussions as the GOOD STYLISTS (TM).

edit: thanks to kenso and others for their eloquence... and the Pavlov gag!:D

[greendragon]

i think a good aikido school is one that practices Randori (defending against random multiple attackers). When observing, it should look like they are using aiki techniques. Randori has taught me to MOVE without losing root. In KungFu i think i was almost too rooted for ultimate mobility. My bad.

[Vapour]

Let me add to this thread. I started my martial arts from aikido before settling down to current martial arts, taijiquan.

I do judo as well and when I went to judo dojo as a complete novice I had about 2 years of experience in aikido. What I found was that I'm usually more powerful than the people of the same built in ground work and can resists throw better and I was pretty good at getting away from attempt to arm lock me. It's all to do with aikido teaching me the correct posture and balance.

After about three of four months of judo, I had go at grading. To be honest, at this poin, I only trained mainly in ground work so I didn't know how to do proper throw. I lost one oragne belt (who was one weight rank higher ) and one blue belt but manage to choke another blue belt of the same weight group out, which got me upper orange belt.

Antother issue is about uke and tori training method, i.e. two partner cooperating to do techinque which is accused of being unrealistic.

Firstly, many aikido techinques are aim to brake bones so I can't see how this techniques can be trained in competitive environment. Similarly, if you use more sport oriented method of training, rule is desinged so that you cannot use technique which cause injury. So calling sparing a realistic is bit too much though it is great way to improve your fitness and good fun as well.

Secondly, I know few people who practice jujitu (not BJJ) and when they try to demonstrat few technique for me, I did notice that those low grade try too hard to force technique which I find it easy to get out. Some technique are easy to learn when uke make it easy for you to do technique so you get the feel of the correct technique. One could make it progressively harder to do it but if you start if off competitively,you may never learn the proper feel of technique.

Thirdly, in aikido receiver is also learning the technique (or principle) call following. In advane level of aikido, you learn counter which can be done only if you follow rather than resist the opponent's technique. This is also true in judo. In judo, for every throw, there is a counter throw. If you examine all of this counter, you notice that you have to follow the opponent throw half way while maintaining your balance then at the right moment, you flip him. That is why even in judo, you have uchikomi practice and kata practice. To learn counter well, you either have to do lot of kata training or in sparing you have to let your opponent throw you.