Obscure question

[sapphire tygre]

Does anyone know what style the guards of the trading caravans used on the silk road? Also were there other trade routes going through Siberia etc?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by sapphire tygre
Does anyone know what style the guards of the trading caravans used on the silk road?

Brazilian JuJutsu. I think they tended to use the closed guards more back then.

[dezhen2001]

i think probably a lot of different skills... bodyguards and mercenaries didnt have a specific curriculum - just depends on what style u learned...

im sure the military and royal guard learned a set skill, but not sure about the rest who werent actually military or whatever :)

dawood

[dezhen2001]

so what ur saying WD is that bjj isnt bjj, but kung fu :eek:

dawood

[Water Dragon]

Well yeah. Everyone knows that Helio invented Kung Fu so that BJJ guys would have somebody to beat up.

[Laughing Cow]

Many styles.

I know that among others the Chen Village provided security for some Caravans.

;) ;)

Yeah, the Tai Chi Hippies.

:D :D

[Water Dragon]

Dezhen is correct. Laughing Cow is most likely correct as well. What I can tell you is not to buy into the stories from any art. Including the one you study ;)

[Laughing Cow]

WD.

Chen TJQ history records Chen Wang Ting of doing so in his youth, that was before he exchanged knowledge with Jiang Fa.

But as you said don't believe everything.

;) ;)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Yin Fu apparently had a BodyGuard service that operated along the route, and he was a Bagua practitioner. Another Western Chinese Martial Art is XingYi.. maybe it had a significant impact on the trade route as well.

Xiao3 Meng4

[dezhen2001]

Xiao3 Meng4: thats true. just wanted to say hi as i have seen your name up top a few times but you havent posted much :)

dawood

[Crimson Phoenix]

WEAPONS

if you speak specifically about the silk road, convoys were not very protected...under the rule of the mongols, it was said that the silk road was so safe, a young lady could walk with golds in here hands and not fear.
Also, the climax of the silk road took part during the yuan and early ming, so basically very few styles can be traced back accurately to that period.
In summary, I do not think anyone travelling the silk road (do not confuse with the many chinese caravan paths) used any style we know of. Hence my answer...

[sapphire tygre]

Thanks for all the info everyone. They must have been pretty hardcore though because thats a long distance. A lot of room for attack.

Water Dragon..... hmmmmm...

[GeneChing]

It would be really tough to figure out what the travellers of the silk road were doing martially. They were exposed to some many cultures.

I'm not sure BJJ would work well in the desert. You'd get sand up your shorts.

[Sho]

Hehe. But I'm afraid a hot, sandy beach is like a second tatami to BBJers.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Actually Gene rolling around on the beaches of Rio was/ is very good training for bjj. hard to stay standing, can take a fall easily.
and now you know why brazillians wear skin tight speedos..

Crimson Phoenix nailed it . Weapons! Anyone who makes their living defending something knows that unarmed combat is a last resort.

[sapphire tygre]

Well.... kung fu woudn't be kung fu if it coudn't take out people with weapons! Someone pulls a 7 foot staff on me I'll take 'em out with snake.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by sapphire tygre
Well.... kung fu woudn't be kung fu if it coudn't take out people with weapons! Someone pulls a 7 foot staff on me I'll take 'em out with snake.

am i reading this right?

kung fu wouldn't be kung fu if it didn't make you capable of defeating armed opponents?

do you mean snake style kung fu? versus the 7-foot pole?

[sapphire tygre]

Yes.. and... Yes. On a lighter note, if Gracie unarmed went up agains't some guy with a 7 foot staff.... my money's on Gracie.

[apoweyn]

I think my money would be on Gracie too, in that instance. I haven't got a whole lot of faith in the ability of a long weapon to keep a determined 'closer' at bay.

That said, I absolutely s-ck with a longstaff. Someone more skilled than me would obviously make that a much more difficult sell.

An unarmed person might be able to take out a staff fighter if he had a good sense of timing, angles, etc. Not simply by virtue of 'knowing' snake style, BJJ, or any other style.


Stuart B.

[sapphire tygre]

I think a lot of it depends on the ability of the guy with the staff. It would be hard, though... might have to take a few hits.

[Knifefighter]

Weapons is exactly the right answer. Anyone who hired bodyguards to protect him would want people whose main proficiency was with weapons. It would be hard to make a living as a bodyguard if you tried to fight off hoards of bandits empty-handed.

Many TMA's were originally done with weapons. This is exactly the reason that they have trouble crossing over to fighting hand to hand without weapons. Fighting with weapons is a completely different game than fighting without.

[ZIM]

Responding to a different part of the original question: "Also were there other trade routes going through Siberia etc?"

Most probably.
In this book (http://www.parlorcity.net/reviews/drprince.htm) [which is not the best, but very readable] there are plausible suggestions of the routes of trade taken during the Roman occupation/invasion of Britain. Whats of interest here is that gold from Ireland is found as far as in Egypt, which in turn connected to the Silk Road...probably the Germanic tribes were behind most of that [including the Vikings, who were traders mostly- Varangir [sp?] in the Russias].

To completely extend it, west to east: Ireland -> Northern Britain [along Hadrian's wall] -> Denmark/Germany/river travel -> eventually Egypt -> overland through Afganistan -> eventually China...all neatly circumventing the Romans. ;)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Here's a bit of silk road info:

Maps:
http://www.silk-road.com/toc/index.html
(click on maps -> trade routes -> China3)

http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/maps/maps.html
(A Bunch of silk road stuff)


Some prominent Chinese Travellers

73-102. Ban Chao (Pan Ch'ao). A Chinese general who restored the Tarim basin under Han's power and maintained control of it.
(What did the Han military train?)

97 Gan Ying (Kan Ying). Sent West by general Ban Chao from Kashgaria in 97 AD, and reached as far as the the coast of the Persian Gulf. He was discouraged from continuing further.
(How and by Whom?)

629-645. Xuan Zang (Hsuan-tsang). Chinese Buddhist monk and translator traveling across the Tarim basin via the northern route to India. Returned via the southern route. His travels became fantastic legends which were used in plays and novels, such as Journey to the West.
(What were the Chinese buddhists practicing at this time?)

1221-1224. K'iu Ch'ang Ch'un - A Taoist monk born in 1148 CE, ordered to the court of Chingis Khan. The route went from the TianShen mountains to Afghanistan. He was accompanied by Li Chi ch'ang, who wrote the Hsi Yu Chi, a diary of the journey.
(What were the Taoists practicing at this time?)

1260-1263. Yeh-lü Hi Liang. Great-grandson of Yeh-lü Ch'u-ts'ai, who worked for Möngke Khan and then Qubilai Khan. His biography in the Yüan-shi relates his travels in Inner Asia in the period of the Mongol civil war prior to Qubilai's consolidation of power.
(What did Qubilai's armies train?)

(info available at http://www.silk-road.com/toc/index.html [click on studies -> travelers])

The Silk road has been travelled by at least two armies in its history - one Chinese, one Mongolian. They may have had an impact in the future modality of combat in the area... Armies at the time of the Han had Cavalry, chariots, infantry, and Bowmen, and used a variety of different weapons, from Battle Axes to Halberds to Swords. The extended struggle between locals and invaders must have triggered evolutions and adaptations on both sides.

Individual martial artists travelling the silk road during its less peaceful days probably had little effect on the overall flavour of the arts in the area, but the arts of the area could potentially have much influence on the martial artists. The potential for learning experiences was high, as was the potential for death. If you made it through the silk road, you were potentially a more experienced, and perhaps better, fighter.

Just as there were trade routes on land, there were trade routes on sea. If we're inferring that the land route carried with it potential banditry and combat, it wouldn't be wrong to adopt the same inferrence for the sea routes... pirates. Are there any Martial arts that claim to stem from or have migrated to pirates?

Xiao3 Meng4

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
just wanted to say hi as i have seen your name up top a few times but you havent posted much :)

dawood

Thanks for the Hi. :)

I'm fairly new as a contributor to the forums, though I've been reading them on and off for years. It's pretty cool.

XM

[Royal Dragon]

If Ex Military were traning caravan guards, or were guards them selves, I guarentee Tai Tzu was there as it was commonly taught to the military during the Ming dynasty.

[sapphire tygre]

Thanks man, this is all more infomation than I knew before. I figured hand to hand stuff came into play, because in europe this stuff was necessary for various reasons. Gaurds, regular military, different purposes.