Choy Lee Fut's signature form?

[Cheese Dog]

Does Choy Lee Fut have a "signature' form? I know that several styles have a form that is considered to embody the arts core principles, fighting style, etc.--such as Hung Gar has their Tiger and Crane form. I heard once that Choy Lee Fut's was called something like "cross-lock form" or something similiar.

If anyone has any info on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Cheese Dog

[Diu Sao]

I think Dutch would be able to answer this best BUT if I am not mistaken our sifu said that the signature form for Chan Family Choy Lee Fut is Siu Moi Fah ('small plum flower fist' for those that don't know). Hope this helps.


Sam

hey Dutch, eat any chicken heads lately?


"If you want wierd, reality delivers it"- Terry Gilliam

[Shaolin Master]

Siu Mui Fah is the "essential" form of CLF.

[CLFNole]

A lot of people would also argus that "Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen" is one of the pillar forms. This might vary due to the different branches of CLF however this form is generally a common one shared.

Peace.

[dutch]

Diu Sao (Sam),

I think what Sifu meant was that the Siu Mui Fa Kuen is probably the most "common" and recognized form between the different CLF schools, but I think CLF Nole is correct in answering Cheese Dog's question of "signature" form with the "Sup Ji Kow Da Kuen." That form seems to be the most talked about in the past and it has just about all the seeds of CLF in it. But like all my posts in the past, it's just my opinion. :-)

And no Sam, I haven't had any Chicken Heads lately! :-) See you soon.

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by CLFNole
A lot of people would also argus that "Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen" is one of the pillar forms. This might vary due to the different branches of CLF however this form is generally a common one shared.

Peace.

CLFNole-
Did the LKH school ever have a "Siu Sup Gee" form? Tat Mau Wong does, and it is just a shortened version of Sup Gee Kau Dah. Any time I'm requested to show CLF, I always default to Siu Sup Gee.
Now that I've learned it, I'm now in the process of learning SGKDK.

By the way, how do you hold your thumb during Chum Kiu? I tend to hold it like I hold it for Chuin Nau, but I was told to keep it at the side. Just curious.

Thanks!
123

[CLFNole]

123:

Siu Sup Gee Kow Dah is a shortened version of Dai Sup Gee Kow Dah, which is simply Sup Gee Kow Dah. The shorter version was likely created for demonstration and touraments.

Actually in Sub Gee I keep the thumb close to my palm (the part is chum kiu sun kiu). In plum flower (the beginning) I keep the thumb off the palm a little but not like the chin lah where separation is more important. Chin lah is a block and grab move and therefore the opening between the thumb and palm allows for better grabbing.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cheese Dog
[B]Does Choy Lee Fut have a "signature' form? I know that several styles have a form that is considered to embody the arts core principles, fighting style, etc.--such as Hung Gar has their Tiger and Crane form.

There are forms common to all schools and there are "essential" forms for a particular level of teaching. There are also individual "signiture" forms and individually "favored" forms but I do not think there is one single "signiture" form for the whole of CLF according to Cheese Dog's definition, because there are many forms that can be said to embody the arts core principles, fighting style, etc. Just my 2 cents worth.

[nospam]

Signature: Sup Gee Kow Dah Ch'uan.

nospam.
:cool:

[dutch]

Extrajoseph actually put it best...I was trying to be more specific with my answer, but what joseph said is really the correct way of looking at it. At different levels there are different forms that embody a lot of that particular levels techniques and ideas to be learned. There is just variety in Choy Lee Fut, that it would be unlikely to actually find "one" particular form that all the branches would agree upon as "THE" form.

Sincerely,

[CLFNole]

Agreed, it would probably be more well stated to say that "sup gee kow dah kuen" and/or "sui moh fa kuen" are the most well-known CLF forms.

Hung gar doesn't have too many hand forms so it might be easier to say that gung gee fook fu kuen or fu hok sheung ying are the pillar forms. CLF has so many hand forms it is difficult to say. I took the question as being most well known.

Peace.

[Cheese Dog]

Thanks to all for your replies!!

What does "Sup Ji Kow Da Kuen" translate to in english? And does anyone know any links to clips of this form?

Thanks again.

Cheese Dog

[JAZA]

just remember that sup is "+" and ji is character, so is cross and kow da I don't know.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by JAZA
just remember that sup is "+" and ji is character, so is cross and kow da I don't know.

The Chinese cotton buttons on your Kung Fu jacket where they interlock each other when you do them up are called a "kow". So "kow" means to interlock, to join together and "da" is to hit, to strike. We know what "sup ji" is, so how should we translate the name of this form into English?

[Sho]

Cross-Pattern Striking Fist

[yutyeesam]

Tat Mau Wong calls it "Cross Pattern Grabbing Fist"

123

[Sho]

Fair enough.

[JAZA]

May be grappling and hitting in a cross pattern.

[Cheese Dog]

Thanks again!!:)

[Fu-Pow]

I call it the "Cross Pattern Hook Strike Fist Form"

[Eddie]

CLFNole,
years ago my old sifu called sup gi " the great escape form" and i even saw it mentioned on a certificate he got from LKH - it said Sup Gi Kao Da - 'Great Escape'. Have you ever heared of this before? Could be like a call name for the form or something like that?
E

[Sho]

Wong Doc Fai's book ("Choy Li Fut Kung-Fu") translates Sup Ji Gau Da Kuen as Cross Pattern of Kau-Da Hand Form. :)

I think Cross Pattern Hook Strike Fist is a good translation.

[CLFNole]

I call it Sup Gee Kow Da Kuen. To me the chinese doesn't translate well to english. So I call it what it is, I am not much for calling the forms with english names the chinese is easier actually.

Peace.

P.S. Eddie, never heard that one before. Remember at the time when Morne followed LKH he never little if any english and his students at the university would have helped him with the english. If you have sifu's 1st book you can see their english translations were not that good.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

I have heard it translated to "Big Cross Fighting Fist".

Does anyone train the Block Tiger Fist: Jit Fu Kuen? I don't hear this set mentioned much.

[yutyeesam]

Didn't know there was a form with that name. I know we use the Jit Fu Choy technique quite a bit in our forms.

CLFNole/Fu Pow - Is Jit Fu Choy used in any other stance beside Gwai Ma and Kau Ma in the LKH forms?

123

[Gwa Sow Chop]

To Golden A. :

I have always known it as Kau= hooks, Dah=strike.
The hook being similar to what ej said, as in hooking together, or weaving together two buttons on a coat.

Makes sense in that this is a form which interconnects the main concepts on a technical level.

GSC

[Fu-Pow]

CLFNole/Fu Pow - Is Jit Fu Choy used in any other stance beside Gwai Ma and Kau Ma in the LKH forms?

I assume you are referring to a downward lower block. My Sifu calls that move "Bei" but I'm not sure what that means.

The Fu Ying form uses that technique from a leaning horse stance. I believe the stance is called Ji Ng Ma.

You could really do that motion from a lot of different stances as long as you have the weight transfer and power generation correct. Thats the cool thing about CLF.

[yutyeesam]

Fu Pow- do you know off the top of your head if it's done in Ji Ng Ma or Sei Ping Ma in any form? Just curious.

I heard that back in the day, Tat Mau Wong was the full contact ring fighter guy, and Mak Hin Fai was the Kong Sau, street fighter guy. Pretty sweet!

123

[Fu-Pow]

Yut yee sam-

Ji Ng Ma I believe.

I'll try to describe the movement.

You just did a right hand fu jow while standing on your left leg in a crane stance.

You swing both hands down in a circular motion and to the right while you step forward on to your right foot.

You jump off that same right foot and as your hands complete their circle over your head your left hand blocks up and to the left. Your right hand blocks out and down with a closed fist. The stance you end up in is not quite bow stance and not quite horse stance. Its in between, like a Ji Ng Ma.

A bow stance ....but the back leg is not quite straight.

[CLFNole]

I learned that particular move in sei ping ma, but you could do it in a leaning horse as well. I think I have it in a lok gwai ma in a real old video I have.

I really don't like the sei ping ma much and prefer a bit of a lean.

Peace.

P.S. the part in Sub Gee you guys are referring to is generally referred to kow ma jeet sow, sheung ma bei fu. Jeet sow would be intercepting arm/fist. Bei fu not sure don't think it means "northern tiger" thats for sure.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


I assume you are referring to a downward lower block. My Sifu calls that move "Bei" but I'm not sure what that means.



Some say "pay" with more a p than b sound. It is a cutting motion.

Imagine you are holding a piece of sugar cane in front of you pointing slightly downward and you try to peel the tough skin with a knife on the other hand going from inside to outside of your body, that is a "pay" or "bei" motion.

When you do the same with your forearm to block, it is called a "jit kiu". When you do it with a charp choy pointing at the same direction of your block (turning fist at the wrist) it is called a "jit fu choy", it is a downward block and strike at the same time. It "pay" away your opponent's strike and counter at the same time.

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmmm...interesting.

We have a move where we do an outward block/strike with a leopard fist but my Sifu calls it Cheong Ahn Chui. It sounds like what you are describing but it goes more upward.

CLFNole would know the combination:

Cheong Ahn Chui-Poon Kiu (same hand)-Sao Chui (opposite hand)

Perhaps the "Cheong Ahn Chui" is more acurately described by this Jit Fu movement Extrajoseph is describing.

Also, for CLF Nole, my Sifu calls a combination Gwa Chui-Faan Jong (like the 3 in a row in Sup Ji Kau Dah) because the first movement is upward I think it might more accurately be called Pow Chui-Faan Jong. Any thoughts on this?

[iron_silk]

Hi

I haven't learn many forms (and I am not sure the same as Jit Fu Kuen) but I have learned a form called "Sup Ji Jit Fu" ~ I think it roughly translate as "Cross Pattern Blocking Tiger"


Also a move called "Lok Kuai Jit Fu" ~ "kneeling down stance blocking tiger"

the move is done usually by jumping into the stance by have the left hand doing a counter-clock wise motion semi circle block from inside the body to above the head and the right forming a fist clench blocking below.

I think Extrajoseph know what I am saying

[extrajoseph]

Fu-Pow,

In our "cheung ahn chui" we go straight for the eyes without blocking. In a "jit fu chui" done upward, we block ("pay" upward) with the forearm (kiu seo)and counter attack at the same time. The former is a pure attacking move in a straight line, the latter is a block/attack simutaneous move done in a curve line. Sometimes we can just block and push the punch away like a "chuin" except done with a charp chui.


Iron-silk,

It sounds like some people here don't do the "sup ji jit fu kuen", it may not be in their curriculum.

I know what you mean by "lok guai jit fu", it is a downward and outward block with the forearm, we sometimes called it "lok guai ji kiu". Most "hoi jong" (openning protocol) in the primary level forms have this move.

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

With what Extrajoseph said about jeet fu, that is how we do the sequence in sup gee you were referring to jeet fu fahn jong. Blocking upward with the kiu sow then following with the fahn jong.

To your other point the thing I think you are referring to is called wang deng choy. It is seen in Tuet Tsin Kuen (in the beginning). The technique in Fu Pow Kuen is similar but more like Extrajoseph said somewhat of a chin with a panther fist alougth ours goes out somewhat to hit and block, so it could be thought of as a "wang deng choy" as well.

Extrajoseph what would "wang deng" mean I was thinking something like to nail from the side or across. Anyway not sure.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by CLFNole
xtrajoseph what would "wang deng" mean I was thinking something like to nail from the side or across. Anyway not sure.
Peace.

"Wang deng" - a nail penetrating at an angle, some people also called it a "chuin charp".

[extrajoseph]

So are "wang deng chui", "chuin charp chui" and "jit fu chui" all mean the same thing? Not quite.

In 'wang deng chui" the emphasis is in the "deng", the nail penetrating the target. Sometimes we drop the last 2 digits of a charp chui (the small and the ring finger) and press the index with our thumb to "nail" with a phenix eye like srtike with the middle knuckle to "deng".

In "chuin charp chui" the emphasis is in the charp and we use "chuin" to get around to our target. There is a distinct twisting of the forearm to achieve our goal that is missing in the other two.

In "jit fu chui" the emphasis is in the "jit fu" and "pay or bei" block with the forearm, the "chui", or the flat hammer fist, comes after. Sometimes we even strike with the "kiu seo", or the bridge hand, instead of the "chui", we called this "pay da', "jit da" or just "jit fu" without referring to the "chui".

So in each case we hit the target in a slight different way, like a nail (wang deng chui), like a screw (chuin charp chui) and like a stick (jit fu chui).

I hope this makes it clearer and not more confusing for people.

[Fu-Pow]

Yes makes perfect sense....

These techniques look almost the same but the INTENTION is different.

Great convo guys.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Yes makes perfect sense....

These techniques look almost the same but the INTENTION is different.

Great convo guys.

Therefore it is important to know and to understand the meanings of each move. Only by working with the details we can improve our form.

[Sho]

What do you guys know about Tit Jin Cheung Kuen (Iron Arrow Long Fist)? Just out of curiosity. Does it have any heavy influences from the northern arts, such as Zhaquan?

[yutyeesam]

There was a thread long time ago where the definition of Tuet Jin was being debated. I don't remember the outcome.

I remember Master (Tat Mau) Wong telling me that what we do in the LKH lineage is not exactly pronounced "teet" but more "tuet", and thus has a different meaning. The literal meaning wasn't explained, but what he talked more about was that it was a "fighting" form.

The Tuet Jin Kune I know has some pretty fast footwork, compared to some of the earlier forms. But I'm not sure about the specific influence for this, perhaps CLFNole or Fu-Pow could explain.

One of my friends calls this "The seasick form" because there's so much turning around. She did it several times in a row, full speed and power, and I guess it messed with her equallibrium! :p

123

[CLFNole]

123:

From what I know this form translates into breaking holds or something like fighting your way out of an ambush. The purpose of this set (in the LKH lineage, haven't seen other versions) is to fighting multiple attackers that is why there is a lot of direction changes, etc.

Peace.

P.S. Tat Wong's version is a little different from sifu's.

[extrajoseph]

I know "Tit Jin Cheung Kuen" means Iron Arrow Long Fists and is one of the 10 CLF primary level forms. Is "Tuet Jin Kuen" the same thing or something different? I have never heard of this name in CLF before, can you give me the Chinese character and the history? Could it have came from Shek Kin?

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

Give me a bit of time on the chinese characters not sure how to do it and I will need my wife to write it down. I think on the Lee Koon Hung website in the links section under Wong Chi Yuen and Pang Koo Chiu they have video clips and I remember seeing a student doing the form. That site is in chinese so it likely has the characters.

The form has a pattern in it gwa choy, chum kiu, sow choy, gwa choy that is repeating a couple of times. It has all clf techniques and did not come from Shek Kin. To my knowledge it was passed on to LKH from Leung Sai, sifu's si hing.

Peace.

P.S. By the way do you have a list of the clf forms broken down into the 3 levels?

[extrajoseph]

Thanks for the lead to HKLKH website, it has great reference material on CLF history, even got Chan Heung's writing which I have not seen before, also got one by Lau Kam-Dong on Jeong Yim Hung Sing history and techniques which is a shocker because the name CLF is deleted altogether, now it is called Fut Gar Hung Sing and Fut Gar Buk Sing instead! The history of denial comes full circle but I won't go into it, so everyone can relax.

I found the Chinese character for Tud Jin Kuen, but not the clip. Tud means to shed, to cast off or to escape from and Jin means fighting, so "Tud Jin Kuen" can be transalated as "Escape from Fighting Form". It is not the same as Tit Jin Cheung Kuen which has a lot of powerful long and straight punches.

Looking at the HKLKH teaching curriculum, there are a few forms that are different from what I know. An interesting item is Peng Kuen is grouped under secondary level forms whereas I know it as a primary level form.

I only know the names of the 10 primary level form well, plus the Ba Gwa forms in the secondary level and the 10 Animal forms in the tertiary level and a few others but not the total 48 or so fist forms.

I try to remember the 10 primary level forms this way:

2 Ng: Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui.
2 Siu: Siu Mui Fa and Siu Sup Ji
2 Sup: Sup Ji Kau Da and Sup Ji Jit Fu
2 Peng: Peng Kuen and Peng Jiang
2 Hung: Kung Ji Fok Fu and Tit Jin Cheung Kuen.

I called the last two "Hung" because they have Hung Kuen influence. They were suppose to have passed down by Chan Yuan-Wu, Chan Heung's first teacher.

[yutyeesam]

CLFNole/Fu-Pow,
What form is this:
http://hpccss.net/kevinchan/movie/show4.WMV

Thanks.
123

[CLFNole]

123:

Can't get the link to work what site did you get it from? I'll check it directly.

Peace.

[yutyeesam]

CLFNole-

It is located here:
http://home.kimo.com.tw/kenjikam2000/show.htm

It is 4th clip in the second set of clips.
Once you click on that, click on download.

It all comes from http://kung-fu.hk.st/ which is the website for Lee Koon Hung Association in Hong Kong.

Thanks!
123

[Fu-Pow]

It is a "mixed up" form. The first part is fu-pow kuen (hehe...)....the second part is Siu Ping Kuen.

Who is performing it?

Also, I noticed that the first link has the name Kevin Chan. That's the name of one of my class mates. Any connection?

EJ-

We don't have the "Hung Ga" influenced sets.....hmmm...I wonder why?

[CLFNole]

I can't seem to get it to work in my office, when I get home later I will check it, but if it is the fu-pow/ping kuen mix I think that is Wong Chi Yuen, he can also be seen (much younger) in some of the other clips in the top section.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

I didn't mean Hung Ga as a style we know today, I mean MA as passed down by Hung Moon the secret society and many of the southern styles have Hung Moon influence.

"Kung Ji Fok Fu Kuen" and "Tit Jin Cheung Kuen" were seldom taught and I think that is why they didn't get passed down more than other forms. Grouping them together is my idea for memory, the Hung bit don't mean anything historical or factual.

[JAZA]

CLF KGFFK is very different of the Hung Gar versions I've seen

[CLFNole]

They just share the same name that is it. It is not uncommon within chinese kung fu styles to have the same name for a form. For example: Jeui Baat Seen Kuen (8 Drunken Immortals) is a name for a form in CLF, Hung Fut, Hak Fu Moon).

Peace.

P.S. By the way regarding the video clip we were discussing earlier it is being demonstrated by Sifu Wong Chi Yuen of Hong Kong. He can also be seen doing Ping Kuen in the group of video clips above #3 back in the 1980s.