Why is shuai chiao/shuai jiao so unpopular?

[carly]

Compared with other types of Chinese martial art, shuai chiao is little known.

[Braden]

It's very difficult to spell.

[dezhen2001]

as far as i have seen, most good systems of kung fu have grabbing, locking and throwing techniques as part of their skill (northern mantis for example, taijiquan and others). i know "shuai jiao" is a system in its own right also, but most systems have standing grappling and stuff as well. its of course a bit different but maybe thats why more people dont train?

dawood

[carly]

will soon meet to officially change the name, to be known as SJ henceforth, and it's gonna be bigger than J-Lo - look out!

[dezhen2001]

on top of that, its difficult to spell :p

dawood

[Water Dragon]

Honestly? Because you need the same mentality in SC that exists in the combat sports. Most people simply don't show up again after the first lesson.

[carly]

but few of them actually do practice those skills in such a way as to make them "live" and useful.

[ShaolinTiger00]

popular kungfu is often "pretty"

I'll let you judge the fighting value of "pretty".

[carly]

Yes, but JUDO and boxing somehow manage to attract students.

[carly]

must have wanted to learn the most fighting skills available to them, and been willing to suffer some pain to do so - why didn't more of them incorporate shuai chiao practice into their systems' training?
Was it a cultural aversion to wrestling?

[Braden]

Actually...

If you exclude variations on PRC forms and varied martial experience being falsely marketed as kungfu, you get rid of the vast majority of "kungfu" schools out there.

Once this is done, is SC really that much more rare than other TCMA styles? I don't think so.

So I think the biggest factor is that there's no SC PRC forms, and people falsely marketting stuff as kungfu aren't likely to claim it's SC, so you only encounter legitimate stuff, which makes it seem under-represented.

[dezhen2001]

xingyi isnt pretty... does that mean its not popular or can it maybe actually be used to fight?

is it just me or are we getting a bit of an echo in here? :eek:

dawood

[ShaolinTiger00]

but judo's sport rules have changed dramatically to favor the more exciting throws vs. groundwork.

Boxing - well chalk that up to man's nature to see two guys punch each other's heads..

[yenhoi]

I think it has to do with superior quality control.

Not everyone thinks its beneficial to have more students, or to teach just anyone anything.

[ShaolinTiger00]

but judo's sport rules have changed dramatically to favor the more exciting throws vs. groundwork.
Judo never gets the attention in the US that it does in the majority or the countries.

Boxing - well chalk that up to man's nature to see two guys punch each other's heads.. that's always going to be popular.

[Suntzu]

nobody teaches SJ around here… that I know of… SJ is just hard to find… compared to Judo… which relative to SJ… is everywhere… plus judo has been/is on TV… now when someone comes out with the movie SJ Master… maybe things will change…

[carly]

I've never seen a PRC school passing itself off as kung fu - there's some PRC Chen tai chi and so on, and Wu Shu, but the majority of Chinese schools I have seen in North America have been established lines of kung fu originally here via Hong Kong like Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut, etc.

[dezhen2001]

LOL at the "echo" ST00 :D

dawood

[ShaolinTiger00]

Finding SC is like finding sanshou . :D

One of the reasons I believe why many "grappling minded" people don't go to SC is because of its lack of groundfighting.

wrestling, sambo, judo, bjj all have it and also train at least basic throws

SC is good but a very narro focus by itself.

[Braden]

The PRC stuff is everywhere, carly. People often simply don't make any distinction between PRC and traditional stuff at all. I've seen far more PRC than traditional bagua (which is the style I train).

I don't think SC is much rarer than (for instance) choy li fut in North America. In general, that is; places like LA are exceptions.

[carly]

SunTzu - yes, no one teaches it - this indicates an earlier lack of popularity of the style among Chinese immigrants to North America - if there were techers thee would be students and schools.
I'm off to feberishly write the script for "SJ Master III - This Time It's Personal..."

[carly]

As I said, the internal styles like Chen Taiji and Bagua, and Wu Shu too, are around, but I haven't seen Wu Shu being offered/marketed as kung fu yet.

[Braden]

If someone is claiming they teach baguazhang, and it turns out that they're teaching PRC style, isn't that an example of "Wu Shu being offered/marketed as kung fu"?

[carly]

I missed reading that post saying that you practiced bagua - yes, as I indicated above, the internal arts are full of PRC stylists passing themselves off as kung fu people.

[Braden]

That's all I meant. ;)

[fa_jing]

Survey says: Strict SJ stylists not seen in any Kung Fu movies - the sole basis for KF popularity here in the West.

Braden is correct. Those who know, respect SJ.

[dezhen2001]

carly: thought u would have already learned that lesson form the NPM forum? :)

dawood

[Water Dragon]

Actually ST, Shuai Chiao is very similar in competition to San Shou. The biggest difference is the preference for throwing vs. hand techniques.

And the reasons SC is not more popular is the sam as San Shou. The guys who WOULD make great San Shou guys are for the most part involved in either Muay Thai or Boxing.

[yenhoi]

maybe if SC adopted the more refined breakfall techniques and skills of the japanese, it would be more popular, and therefore more combat effective?

:D

[carly]

The NPM forum? Which one is that? Do you have an address?

[carly]

http://www.npm-ma.de/

[dezhen2001]

sorry i meant the northern praying mantis forum :) all the 6 plum stuff etc. that discussion kinda showed the confusion between prc and traditional mantis...

thanks for the link though - i dont understand german :(

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

It could be because it's a darn ugly art, and hard as he!l to boot.

The other thing, is Shui Chiao is pretty much incorperated into most Chinese styles (There's tons of it in Tai tzu for example). There may be many students in many Kung Fu styles who specialise in the throwing aspects of thier arts so exclusively they would be considered Shui Chiao players, but because they learned it through thier regular Kung fu system, they are not recognised as such.

[carly]

I don't know of many traditional kung fu styles that regularly practice throwing.

[MightyB]

Ok, what you do in most kung fu styles is "Kuai Jiao" (fast wrestling, or quick throws) it's not Shuai Jiau. There is a difference, the main one being that Shuai Jiau is it's own style and Kuai Jiao is part of TCMA.

The reason why SJ is so unpopular or so hard to find is the same reason why any one kung fu style is hard to find. There aren't a lot of teachers. Is kung fu spread out across the US?- yes. But what about Hung Gar, Northern Shaolin, White Crane, any of the variations of Praying Mantis, etc? Are they widespread no. SJ isn't unpopular, it's just hard to find.

I like to use the man on the street test. Say Kung Fu, they know what you're talking about. Say Xing Yi, they have no idea what you're talking about.

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by MightyB
Say Xing Yi, they have no idea what you're talking about.

Thank God..I don't wanna see Xingyi in the hands of McDojos...well, like an old saying goes: "It's not pretty but it works"...maybe that will keep the Hippies out of sight.


...but it's a babe magnet oh yeah...that's why Xebby is practicing it.

[carly]

Hsing-i has been taken up by a lot of new age types.

[Water Dragon]

Uh Felipe, I've been on Emptyflower recently. I hate to break the news but Xing Yi has apparently already become the next flower child. I'm sorry :(

[carly]

Is that special five elements patchouli incense I smell or what?

[Royal Dragon]

Tai tzu is not very well spead either. Infact, some of what's being "Sold" as it is actually Taiji Quan, Hsing I and Bagua that's being billed as the "Secret inernal" Tai tzu.

However, In China, and Taiwan, it is much more popular. It's still under ground there too though, and often only taught to a schools insiders.

I have found by aquiring the same forms from several independant sources is that much of what I am being sent is shortned, or has stuff left out. The good part, is the various sources I deal with don't know each other, so they leave different stuff out. I can combine the sets to get it right because of that.

Shui Chiao like Tai Tzu is NOT unpopular, it's just not widely spread as other arts. Styles like TKD have huge PR and marketing behind them. Shui Chiao does not have that. It's going to be the next huge Chinese art in my opinion, because it specialises in grapelling and has it's own unique ground fighting system (More ground and pound than grapleling from what I see). Because of this, I think it could do well in the MMA's once someone takes enough of an intrest in to to take it to the professional level. Once that hapenes, it will spread like wild fire just like BJJ did.

[GLW]

Not exactly unpopular...

It is simply hard to find a good quality teacher.

Then, if you DO find one, you have to take into account that after a certain age, taking up Shuai Jiao is not all that appealing. After all, how many fit 30 year olds are there? Look at your workplace and ask how many people you see in the 30+ age bracket that are marginally fit.

To do Shuai Jiao, you have to truly first eat bitter. You have to spend a lot of time simply learning to fall...over and over again. Do it wrong one time in a class and you will pay for it for a long time.

There is NO way to fake Shuai Jiao class. You either go in and take it or you go home. Other styles - you can 'do' them or you can DO them. So Shuai Jiao will never be a commercially viable art...which is probably a good thing. People wander into a judo class...there are mats and such. Shuai jiao class...carpet for the class if you are lucky...

There is some good Shuai Jiao in the mainland...but a lot of them also tend to be hooked into the things with the police and military..so they don't get known or leave the country as often.

[Knifefighter]

For an art to become popular, there's got to be something to showcase its strengths.

Karate, and flowery styles of Kung Fu have all been popularized in movies at one time or another. Judo is an Olympic sport. The effectiveness of BJJ and Muay Thai has been shown in the UFC's and other MMA venues. Wrestling is taught in many schools' PE programs and offered as a high school, college, and Olympic sport. Boxing is also in the Olympics and, in addition, has massive marketing campaigns.

Shuai Jiao in this country is less known than curling is.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't see why you can't teach Shui Chiao with mats. We had a seminar at the gym I was planning on opening a school at (Deal fell through), and everyone loved power slaming each other on the 40X40 Olympic gymnastics floor.

You get many more reps that way, and your throws get crisper because of that.

[Water Dragon]

Knifefighter. I agree. I'm not really concerned with SC becoming popular. But I would like to see it on similar grounds with Muay Thai. Muay Thai's not known in the general community. But it is well known and respected throughout the Martial Arts community.

We're getting there. There is an annual tournament in Ohio. There is a San Shou/Shuai Chiao tourney in Austin that is in the planning stages right now. We're looking at a big one in Texas next year. It will take time, but I think we can make it happen.

Mats are great. Use them whenever you can. Grass works fine for training if that's all that's available. Concrete sucks. Lil Joe and I worked Diagonal Cut on concrete one day. We both got in 3 throws and quit.

[Felipe Bido]

****, I'll have to take out my belt and do some spankin'

[Royal Dragon]

See, the way I look at it, you start throwing on the hard ground for the conditioning, then when you've lost your mind, go to the mat for extra reps.

[sapphire tygre]

Judo's great if you can pull off the throws. This takes finesse though, and these moves can be reversed.

[SevenStar]

Any move can be reversed. And it's not so much finesse as it is a good understanding of balance and how to steal it. You have to be aware of where you are and where your opponent is in relation to yourself. From what I've seen, your views on grappling are VERY skewed... have you ever actually been trained in judo, bjj, shuai chiao, etc?

[Water Dragon]

Sevenstar has served up a heaping dose of good ol Southern Correctness

[sapphire tygre]

How are my views on grappling scewed? Judo takes finesse and strength. I was not implying that Judo does'nt require all those elements. Another factoid, extensive training doesn't always make somebody great at their art. :)

[Water Dragon]

You gonna let him punk you like that Sev? He only has 97 posts.


Go get him Tygre!

[sapphire tygre]

People, I'm just trying to have constructive convesation. How in the hell is saying that Judo takes finesse offensive? What's the deal with the EGO tripping here? Reality check... Different opinions,... Seriously, no one knows everything.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah Sev, you heard him. You don't know $hit!

[sapphire tygre]

Reminds me of this Kenpo illustration I saw years ago.. This guy who trained and thought he was the next best thing after fried chicken is getting choked out by some angry mook he ****ed off. I think the moral was like, once you're good at your art dont go around acting all ****y.

[Water Dragon]

It's about time someone told Sevenstar what time it was. He's always running around this board like he's some bigshot.

Hi. I'm Sevenstar and I'm a moderator. I do BJJ, Judo, and Shuai Chiao. I train 36 hours a day. Everyone likes me. Look how cool I am.

I'm just glad that someone around here has the guts to stand up to him.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
It's about time someone told Sevenstar what time it was. He's always running around this board like he's some bigshot.

Hi. I'm Sevenstar and I'm a moderator. I do BJJ, Judo, and Shuai Chiao. I train 36 hours a day. Everyone likes me. Look how cool I am.

I'm just glad that someone around here has the guts to stand up to him.


LOL!! Hayul naw. I leave the board for a sec and this is what I get? Lemme go see what I missed so I can reclaim my respect...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sapphire tygre
People, I'm just trying to have constructive convesation. How in the hell is saying that Judo takes finesse offensive? What's the deal with the EGO tripping here? Reality check... Different opinions,... Seriously, no one knows everything.

nothing wrong with constructive conversation - I'm all for it. but look at how it's worded...

" Judo's great if you can pull off the throws. This takes finesse though, and these moves can be reversed."

the first part of the statement has a bad connotaion... it's great IF you can pull of the throws. makes it sound like the throws are rarely pulled off. That's like me saying "A crane's beak is great, if you can make it work"

the second part, it just kind of stating the obvious - anything can be reversed. There's really nothing constructive there. Then there are your other posts - only certain body types are good for grappling, etc. from a constructive criticism standpoint, it sounds like you're speaking with a voice of inexperience when it comes to grappling.

[sapphire tygre]

If I caused any confusion about my stance on grappling I'll fix it here. I think grappling is great. I think its effective for fighting, and I think any body type can excell at it. One of the problems here is that the term grappling means something different to different people on this forum. I didnt realize that some people were equating Judo with grappling. When I came across the word I pictured ground wrestling in its purest form. I also did see some mention of leg tackles, and this is what I thought people meant by "grappling". I still maintain that bodytype should be considered when fighting. Some moves for some people are unrealistic.

[SevenStar]

You'll encounter that with any style. That's where adaptaion comes in. there are plenty of throws that are suitable for tall guys, plenty suited for short guys, etc. Just as kung fu has techs for people of all sizes.

As far as the term grappling, I can't speak for everyone here, but I equate judo, shuai chiao, wrestling, bjj, catch, etc. with grappling, as they all deal with working in the clinch and throwing. the focus of these styles isn't striking, but grappling, be it standing, ground or both.

[sapphire tygre]

Well if grappling means that then what are people arguing about here? I've used Judo throws many times succesfully, in real life. In fact thats even without striking. Dont get me wrong I'm not in lala land about my current abilities. So in my case, throwing, "grappling" seems to work but there are some people who I would'nt try this on.

[SevenStar]

It's KFO, we have to argue! :D

There are some throws, as I mentioned that a smaller person shouldn't attempt on a larger. There are plenty that work perfectly though. That's why there is rolling, randori and shiai - you get to try your skill against people of varying skill and sizes.

[rogue]

Some of the Tai Chi guys I work out with also do shuai chiao. Personally I hate the combo as I get dumped really fast if I stick inside for any length of time.

[dezhen2001]

Personally I hate the combo as I get dumped really fast if I stick inside for any length of time.

LOL! :D

dawood

[rogue]

After this morning considering how much time I spend on my backside I'm going BJJ.:D