Tai Chi, Baji, Taiji, Taijiquan...

[Knifefighter]

I'm confused. What's the difference?

[Water Dragon]

Taichi, Taiji, and Taijiquan are the same thing. Baji is an art that is somewhat similar to Chen Taijiquan. They come from the same area of China. Baji is good stuff, So is Chen Taiji. Both teach a unique way of hitting that is extremely powerful. Remember that and you should be fine.

[BaldMonk]

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that Baji is similar to Tai Chi, when descibing what Baji is. I'm just a beginner in both styles so RAF is really the person to describe the differences in detail. Saying they are similar is saying that a wrecking ball is similar to a hand grenade. Tai Chi being the wrecking ball and Baji being the hand grenade. I'm using the analogy because for me to articulate the differences by talking about Jings and the different steps would be exhaustive. The training methods for Baji are very specific and specialized. The energy in Baji is crisp and explosive. Cross energy is an important component and goes in eight different directions. In the initial levels of training the movements are accompanied by stomping footwork to help facilitate the release of energy. With further training the energy can move inside without the stomping. It's very distinctive. If I had to compare it with a style from exterior appearance, I would say the closest one is Hsing-yi. Baji has been reffered to as Hsing-yi on steroids. I hope I've shed some light and I also hope I didn't offend by my disagreement. Perhaps my brothers or cousins can articulate what I'm tryingto say better than I can.

[RAF]

I'll just add a little here. In 1994, over a Chinese dinner and translator, Su Yu Zhang explained to me how baji and Chen's taiji were similar. Another lineage holder told me that they took one of the major Chen writings on the system and compared the trained energies (I'll avoid Jings) to baji and concluded they covered the same ground. Liu and Chen Fake met in a military academy in Beijing in 1928 and compared systems. Again, same conclusion, same trained energies but what is important is the strategy and manner in which the power is delivered. You will be hard pressed to see this in Chen's yi lu but the pao chuei form, in my observations, comes close to the tempo and flavor of baji.

In 1982, Boston demonstration of Leung (Liu's first disciple), demonstrated xing yi forms. The announcer said that some believe baji comes from xing yi others believe that xing yi comes from baji. Cartmell and Miller's book on Xing Yi neigong seems pretty close to my understanding, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, of what baji's "neigong" is all about.

My own teacher learned his Chen's taiji from Wong Meng Bi (also Du Yu Zi) who learned from Chen Fake in the 1930s or earlier. Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan. My tearcher was attracted to Wong Meng Bi's form because its expression of power looked like baji. The movements have a great deal of large and small circles but none is flowery and it looks rather plain.

I have always felt a strong kinship between Chen's taiji training and system with what I know of baji and my understanding is that Liu had tons of respect for the system. He didn't try to steal Chen's taiji or put it under the baji thumb, but in the 1970s, when there was virtually no hope of reunification between the mainland and Taiwan, he thought to preserve a great art. He created 3 levels of Chen's short forms based on his observations and discussion with Chen Fake, a zhao bao master who was his friend, and Du Ye Zi. He made the short forms to preserve the essence and so that others could learn it in a relatively quick time and not become discouraged at having to initially learn a long form. My teacher taught some of these forms at 5 colleges in Taipei and yes, I have seen them on film during that time.

As far as I know we treat baji and Chen's taiji as separate but close systems and hold nothing but the utmost respect for its practitioners and family lineage holders and also those who practice it in Jinan (home of my teacher's father).

Too much? Sorry but I too hold the utmost respect for the Chen's system. CORRECTION: CHEN XIAOWANG'S FIRST AMERCIAN DEMONSTRATION OF HIS SYSTEM AT THE TASTE OF CHINA REALLY LEFT AN IMPRESSION THAT NEVER LEFT.
(How could you let me get by with that Freudian slip of my initial post: "Chen Fake's first American demonstration of his system at the Taste of China really left an impression that never left". In my dreams! Or was this what you were referring to Walter?)

The story of Yang's taiji is another ball of wax.

[Walter Joyce]

RAF,
I love your posts.

Walter

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by RAF
... Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan. ...

Something I would like to add to this.

Haven't seen it for myself, but got it from good authority.

Apperantly Chen Pei Shan and Chen Peilin (Brother) execute Xiao Jia differently, not sure about the way Chen Peiju (Sister) does it if it is 3rd expression or more in line with one of the brothers.

Differences can be clearly seen in the way some movements like "Yan Shou Chui" are executed.

I have also heard that Chen FaKe learned Xiao Jia, but I think that for a long time it was only taught to Family while Liao Jia ws the form taught to outsiders.

Might be wrong though.

Will have more info after I get the Xiao Jia Books and VCD to compare against Chen Peishans material.

[RAF]

If Chen Peiju is the woman on Roam About The Taiji World demonstrating the xiao jia form then it is much closer in flavor to what I play and does not resemble the flavor of Chen Peishen.

I have private footage of what I think is her in Chen Jia Gou, private demonstration, and she is older now a bit more heavier but very powerful with really strong fajing expression.

There are just so many different tastes and flavors, can't anyone find some old footage of Chen Fake demonstrating his system? The benchmark would be nice.

Thanks Walter, I hope we all can build bridges instead of digging ditches!

[Laughing Cow]

RAF.

I haven't seen her yet.

But at this link you there are pics of both her and Chen Peishan.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html

Cheers.

[GroungJing]

Having establish that bajiquan is simular to Chen style Taijiquan what is Piguazhange?

I've just heard this art is often taught along with Bajiquan.

Also I've heard that Bajiquan is close to Xingyiquan in it's structure i.e. (being simple but complex and no non-sense straight to the point etc......

[RAF]

Laughing Cow:

I am not sure that is her. Although they use the same color outfit, the woman I have in Chen Jia Gou footage is much heavier (not fatter but big boned) and extremely powerful.

Ground Jing:

James Guo, a formal student of Liu and one of the sharpest martial artists I have ever met has a write-up on piguazhang and its relationship to baji:

http://www.bajimen.com/

Part II of the article cited below shows some of the basic single-moving postures. Pigua has been referred to the Yin side of the baji/pigua system but pigua and baji also are stand-alone systems.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua2.htm

Somewhere else we posted how the techniques of baji/pigua get integrated into the postures. I have seen this in the 2nd level of Liu Da Kai (6 big opening).

I'll stop here. I think this topic has pretty much been covered over the last year and there really isn't anything new to add.

[GroungJing]

Thanks RAF

[count]

RAF,
You guys give away way too much good stuff. If you are interested, one of Sifu Tsou's students wrote an article for our first of the year newsletter. It is about the piqua training camp they had just this past fall. I wish I had gone. They covered some training methods for developing piqua power and the palm. They also covered the Pai Da training. I wonder why the student who wrote the article didn't write about it? Anyway, one of the students quotes about why piqua with baji.

Ultimately, Sifu explained, Piqua compliments Baji nicely since Baji is primarily a close distance or even no distance fighting style. Piqua,on the other hand,can be used for long range striking and defense,as well as opening an opponent ’s gate or closing the gap for a close quarters Baji attack.
If I ever get board with bagua, piqua is next on my list.;)

If you our interested in reading our newsletter you can download a copy at our Chi Kung International web site. (http://chikungintl.com) Check out the action shots during the bag training sessions.

[RAF]

Count:

Your newsletter looks very good! Nice job. Looks like you guys are having tons of fun and learning a lot too!

Later.

[Laughing Cow]

RAF.


My own teacher learned his Chen's taiji from Wong Meng Bi (also Du Yu Zi) who learned from Chen Fake in the 1930s or earlier. Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan.

Is it possible for you post me the movement list of your first road.

I would like to compare it to the CPS & FCL Forms, there are movements in the Small Frame Form (Yi Lu) that are not contained the Large Frame form(Yi Lu).

Thanks.

P.S.: The list can be either in english or chinese.

[RAF]

Actually we have never done that and thats a future project.

However, most of the names, it seemes to me, are pretty close to what Du Ye Zi played. Some of the beginning of the form closely resembles the first 10 movements of what Adam Hsu displays on his Hu Lei Jia (Hu Long Jia)/

This might get you started:

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/1-18.html

Here is a way to short of a clip of the first Abstraction of Chen's put together by Liu:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/videos.htm

Master Su's Chen abstraction is pretty close to what we do but the flavor is really quite different. The first abstraction we play has no power, is played very smoothly and relatively low (and that is how I see it resemble Yang's taiji The postures and movements follow closely to Yang's form)

Notice the high pat on horse and its minor difference. In the second level we turn around and do a double kick. In the 3rd level we turn around do a double kick and a tornado kick. Our yi lu has a tornado kick also. I wish it were possible to show you the differences personally. Its not that much of a difference in psotures as it is the compactness of the circles and arcs. There once was a clip on the American Chen Taiiji site by Zhu TianCai whose opening of xiao jia was almost identical. http://www.americanchentaichi.com/

In the 3rd level our opening followed by jin gong dao chui employs a relatively high snap kick. I saw a clip in the 80s of Feng Zhiqiang start his form this way but have never seen anyone else do it. Often between movements 5 and 6, dan bian and jin gong dao chui I will use this kick.

If I can get Tony's attention, I will try to get him in the future to put the names out. However, as I warned, the flavor and movments are different than Chen Peishen's (at least what he put on his first tape many, many years ago). In fact, in my observation, Chen Peishen's form looks closer to the standard forms currently being played on the market.

I also most readily admit that my forms really are bastyerdized. However, almost every teachers form is personalized. What is interesting is that the abstracted forms might provide a glimpse into what some of the older iterations of Chen's looked like. Du Yi Ze got his structure from Chen Fake's father, Chen Yen Xi. However, always keep in mind that older or original doesn't necessarily imply better. Sometimes Masters, over their lifetime, revise forms such that their first generation students don't look like their last generational students. Sometimes the Master revises on the basis of his life experiences (what he did in his 20s may have not turned out to be functional or effective in 40s,50s, or 60s) or he may not been able to physically perform the material of his 20s.

Just a little food for thought.

[count]

Thanks RAF, we always have fun.:D Editorialy speaking, I had nothing to do with the newsletter except posting it on the web site, but it's interesting to get the perspective of these guys. Some of them are newer students or study from a distance and come to the workshops, but they did a good job. I love the training they got.

I have a list of the caligraphy, pinyin and english names for the form you are talking about as Sifu Tsou taught me from Du. It's on about 10 pages though. I'll try and digitize it for posting later. Somewhere I have the entire thing photographed, but you can't compare from a picture. Possibly Laughing Cow, if you post your list, it would be easier for me to tell you what postures are missing if any.

[RAF]

Actually the site of Richard Miller that I posted should cover the postures taught by Du Ye Zi. Count, check out his site.

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/1-18.html

They have both pinyin and characters and are directly from Adam Hsu. See how they compare to what you have.

Ours will be slightly different because of the influence of xiao jia from Wong Meng Bi. However, Laughing Cow, please remember that the term xiao jia is simply what Wong Meng Bi called his version of Chen Fake's forms and may not necessiarly correspond to what is currently being taught as xiao jia.

I have sort of given up the pursuit of trying to sort all of this out and simply take and learn what is given.

[count]

Yes, they are almost identical in the order. The pinyin and translations are a little different but the Chinese is the same.

[Laughing Cow]

RAF & Count.

Thanks for the info and links.

RAF, not questioning your forms or their validy just curious. AFAIK, the official Xiao Jia lineage bypasses Chen Fake.

I am doing the forms they way CPS teaches(list will come in few hours) them, even in this Yi Lu Form we miss the "Mule kick".

So I am fully aware that the forms, flavours and so on will differ.

I also heard that Xiao Jia contains more sets than just Yi Lu & Er Lu.

To be honest I would love to see the forms I know being differently expressed.

;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by RAF
I have sort of given up the pursuit of trying to sort all of this out and simply take and learn what is given.

To be honest I think this is the best that we can do.

[RAF]

No Laughing Cow, I took you straightup and everything you asked was simply an honest inquiry. I guess I am just saying I've reached a deadend in my search and can appreciate where you are at.

My solution was simply to accept what is and go on.

All the forms are more similiar than dissimiliar.

Good exchange and please keep me posted on what you may stumble upon.

[Laughing Cow]

Count.

Here is the Xiao Jia Yi Lu form as it is being taught to me.

NOTE:
The numbering and movement names are per the CPS Video(81 Movements), we got additional material that has shows it in 76 Movements.

01. Yubei Shi
02. Jingang Daodui
03. Lanzayi
04. Liufeng Sibi
05. Danbian
06. Jingang Daodui
07. Baie Liangchi
08. Louxi Niubu
09. Chushou
10. Shang Sanbu
11. Xiexing Niubu
12. Zaishou
13. Shang Sanbu
14. Yanshou Chui
15. Jingang Daodui
16. Pishen Chui
17. Beizehekao
18. Qinglong Chushui
19. ShanhuanZhang
20. Zhoudi Kanquan
21. Daojuanhong
22. Zhongpan
23. Baie Liangchi
24. Louxi Niubu
25. Shoushi
26. Shantongbei
27. Yanshou Chui
28. Liufeng Sibi
29. DanBian
30. Yunshou
31. Gaotanma
32. You Cajiao
33. Zuo Cajiao
34. Zuo Denggen
35. Jisanquan
36. Jidichui
37. Erqijiao
38.Huxin Quan
39. Xuanfeng Jiao
40. Shuanfeng Guaner
41. Deng Yigen
42. Yanshou Chui
43. Xiao Qinna
44. Baotou Tuishan
45. Liufeng Sibi
46. Danbian
47. Qianzhao Houzhao
48. Yem Fenzong
49. Liufeng Sibi
50. Danbian
51. Yunu Chuansuo
52. Lanzayi
53. Liufeng Sibi
54. Danbian
55. Yunshou
56. Baijiao
57. Diecha
58. Jinji Duli
59. Daojuanhong
60. Zhonpan
61. Baie Liangchi
62. Louxi Niubu
63. Shoushi
64. Shangtongbei
65. Yanshou Chui
66. Liufeng Sibi
67. Danbian
68. Yunshou
69. Gaotanma
70. Shizi Jiao
71. Zhidang Chui
72. Baiyuan Xiangua
73. Liufeng Sibi
74. Danbian
75. Pudilong
76. Shangbu Qixing
77. Xiabu Kuahu
78. Baijiao
79. Dangtou Pao
80. Jingang Daodui
81. Taiji Shoushi

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

RAF.

Thanks, for the exchange.

I will keep you posted if I find anything new. Yeah, I am still trying to collect as much info as possible.

Keep well.

[BaldMonk]

I told ya RAF could do a better job explaining it than me. Everytime guys like RAF and Count open their mouths I learn something.

Thanks

[Walter Joyce]

TTT

[Daredevil]

I recommend interested parties check old threads re: Baji for some good discussions on the art itself and it's similarities to both Chen style Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. A lot has been said there which is still very relevant and there's no need to repeat much of that.

Don't mean to imply this isn't a good thread though.

[Walter Joyce]

can you list the names of those threads?
I brought this to the top because someone asked me about the xin jia form and its possible development.

[Vapour]

No one seems to have answered to the original question about what the difference among the words, Tai Chi, Taiji, Taijiquan so here is the answer.

The difference between taichi and taiji is the spelling. taichi is the America version spelling the chinese pronounciation. In mainland china, the proper spelling is taiji.

Tai meand great or grand, ji/chi means polarities or extreme. Grand polarities represent the fundamental concept of daoism which is graphically represented by ying and yang symbol. Chuan means fist and it represent that it is a style of martial arts. Taichichuan is a martial arts system based on the differentiation of substaitial and insubstantial and obtain majority of inspiration from daoism classic such as "tao te ching". hence the name.

In the West, far more people come in contact with taichchuan than daoism so taichi have became the byword for the taichichuan though for Chinese ears, it is very funny. It's like calling gospel singing as Chiristianity. Given the recent degeneration of taichichuan into mere dance, more genuine practioners deliberately put chuan to emphasise the martial aspect of the art. Furthermore, they often adopt taiji rather than taichi to further differentiate themselves from people who do taiji only for health. So if someone use the words taijichuan instead of taichi, the chance is that he is practicing this art as a martial arts.

[Brad]

BTW q=ch :D

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
can you list the names of those threads?
I brought this to the top because someone asked me about the xin jia form and its possible development.

Sorry for taking my time to answer, but here's a list of some threads I found on the search:

1. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12580&highlight=baji), 2. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=18310&highlight=baji), 3. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=18685&highlight=baji), 4. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15619&highlight=baji), 5. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=10322&highlight=baji)

I also recommend interested folks visit Emptyflower forum and dig up some more Baji discussions there (though I think most of you guys are already there).

[RAF]

Here is a little more to add in comparing Baji and Chen's taijiquan. Its a reply to Huanyuan 13 regarding Hong Junsheng's "small circle" Chen Taijiquan. Huanyuan 13 sparked up something about my Chen's form and that led to more thought on the comparision of baji and Chen's taijiquan. When Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's as xiao jia, I noted that it doesn't resemble what I have seen of Chen Peishen but he may have been referring to what he learned from Chen Fake as small circle rather than the xiao jia system. However, I have also heard that Chen Fake practiced a xiao jia frame also. So I am at roadblock for now.

However, these are my personal observations and you can read into them what you wish (they may not reflect all of what my teacher knows or says regarding the two systems).
__________________________________________________ _

Huanyuan13:

Yes, you have read me like a book. I came to Tony Yang for Chen taijiquan and Yang taijiquan, not out of reputation but because of their ad in the Yellow Pages.

When I got to Akron in 1985 I couldn't find anyone teaching and so I checked the ads in the phone book and saw that one of his students had put his school (which I found out the school never got to open in downtown Canton and he was only teaching privately) advertised Yang and Chen taijiquan. I called but couldn't understand the directions (was only in town for less than 2 weeks and he lived 20 miles south in a different town). Finally, by a lot of twists and turns, I made it to his house in 1988 and then refused to practice the Chen and Yang Abstracts he taught. I thought the Chen abstract looked too much like longfist and so I returned to Jou Tsung Hwa's Tai Chi Farm for more instruction in Chen's taijiquan. After viewing many, many films and talking to Mr. James Guo, Toronto and kungfu brother of my teacher, I came to understand Chen's taiji much better and returned to the abstractions.



In the Wu Tan(g) school, I know of no one who teaches all 3 of the abstractions in Chen's taijiquan. From what I have seen, almost everyone learns Du Yu Ze's linking form and the lao jia and then pao chui. I actually don't know that linking form although I have a copy of my teacher playing it in the 1970s at the Wu Tan Center in Taipei. Its diffusion in the Wu Tang system strongly propagated by Adam Hsu although my teacher learned directly from Du Yu Ze. They learned in his livingroom. Adam had left for the US when my teacher spent time learning the Chen abstractions from Liu.

I've been lucky to learn all 3 abstractions and lao jia. Currently I am waiting on pao chui. The 3rd abstraction leads to pao chui.

You hit on something. Wong Meng Bi, in referring to his form as xiao jia may have been referring to it as small circle form. You rang the bell because my teacher kept saying, FOR YEARS, he likes these forms because the circles are smaller although they 85% follow the frame of Du Yu Ze and Wong Meng Bi. Also he felt the small circle movement to be more akin to the baji system.

Many people don't have the skill nor realize the that baji is full of small circle movements: You will find this in the da baji form (although translated as big frame, it contains small circle movements).

For example, if you take two movements found in the da baji form (which are also played as single moving postures) Shen or Chen (Taiwanese accent really screws up my low leve pinyin) Shou (played forward and backward) it resembles, in movement, repulse the monkey or winding hand) or Hen da 3rd movement in da baji. These all have small circle movements but if the practitioner is unskilled, they usually butcher the movment by playing from the wrist rather than waist and arm.

Even the opening block of the moving one punch is a full body but very small circle--its so subtle but yet so important and is directly trainable from turning over the da qiang (big spear exercise). Someone who plays this well will show the full body chan si jing but its so small and subtle you need a trained eye to see. But the way we store energy in the waist movements is similiar in some movement but in other movement quite different (accordian like in the waist movement Xu-jing to fa-jing). Because of the small circle movement this had led a number of practitioners to conclude that Liu put baji into the Chen's taiji abstracts. At this point, I don't think that is the case and when people look for the similiarity of baji at the lao jia or yi lu level, they don't see large circle movements and then conclude, "aha, its got baji in it". Believe me, I could really understand that coming from someone who is a Chen style purist and imagines the possible arrogance of Liu taking a system like Chen and modifying to include baji. Its really just some of the overlap in very basic training but I could see how someone in the Chen family lineage would be upset. Maybe we can say that baji looks more less like a punctuated performance of lao jia and more in flavor to pao chui.

I won't repeat the Liu stories again but so many people forget that he started martial arts training at 4 or so and continued his study through his entire life. They often fail to realize he trained and saw more martial arts than most simply because of his advantage in life: Wealthy family, highly educated and under Li Jing Lin/Zhang Xiang Wu/Li Shu Wen warlord quasi-Hebei Governor gang of sorts.

Liu also, in Tianjin, had a very close relationship with a Zhao Bao master and he never revealed much about what was exchanged and what he saw (same with his meeting with Chen Fake in 192. Also these stories were told in the 1970s, when Chen's taijiquan was barely visible in the West and weren't done in order to enhance Liu's authority and/or image. The man knew what he knew and liked what he liked. His primary evaluation was based on efficiency and fighting potential.

Sometimes people train in baji for a bit and think they have it down because it looks so simple on the surface. But the reality is that Baji is a very sophisiticated art in theory and its complexities are very subtle (this aimed at no one in particular and I considered Omarthefish's comments and insights on the mark)

Thanks again and I may just have to order the tape by Chen Zhonghua. I like what Hong Junsheng wrote and I read these papers when the site first listed them.

Thanks again!

__________________________________________________ __

[ddh]

just thought I'd say that for fun. But seriously now, I get the impression from being around some good old fashion Chinese people that the better you can hide the deeper qualities of your art and still display the funtamentals means a limited number of people will get it- among them the more perceptive student who will learn the deeper qualities-ideas-concepts- -!!
Each internal system of the old school implies - learn one system well and it will expand out into a personal practice that builds on what you come to appreciate and add to your own ideas. All this applies you've practiced something with a solid classical foundation like Shaolin and then entered in appreciation of certain ideas like Taiji - then went on to appreciate the other internal arts you heard about that share common concepts. Fa-jing, whip like action, circle and square, small and large, opened - closed are very interesting concepts. Tis an exciten thing this. :)

[ShaolinWood]

Thanx everyone, I really enjoyed reading this!
RAF, you know your stuff!

If there is anyone who can maybe give me the movement names of Chen Xiauwang's 38 posture San Shi ba form? It's a rather new form and not practiced everywhere...

I would really appreciate it!
Thanx to everyone sharing good knowledge!

[RAF]

Thanks but there are some people that post here that really, really, know their Shyt, especially with regard to Chen and Yang's taiji. I'm still leanring.

If I recall, the Chen Book put out under Feng Zhiqiang and Chen Xiaowang has the 38 movement form in the back. I also think that Chen Xiaowang demonstrated most if not all of it in his first visit to the Taste of China. Its on video.

Good luck.

[ShaolinWood]

Will definitely check it out, didn't know about it!!
I have:Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan
by Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, David Gaffney

A great book check it out,If you haven't...
thanx for the advise,
Enjoy!

[omarthefish]

RAF,

It's funny you should bring up the idea of Liu Yunqiao bringing a little Baji! into Chen Taiji. As I think you know, my teacher doesn't do Chen, he plays Yang and Wu. But the point i was thinking of is that he talks about just the reverse. He talks about incorporateing a little taiji into his Baji!!! not the other way around. I mean where's your base anyways? Are you a Baji guy who also knows taiji or the other way around. A small but, to me, signifigant difference.

Omar

[RAF]

I came through the taiji door in 1983 and discovered baji late in life (1993-4). Saw how it significantly improved my foundation and consider it my base along with the little bagua training I know.

In my experience, much of the basic baji training overlaps with what I know about Chen's training although I understand that a baji purist or a Chen purist would strongly disagree. At this stage, I really don't care to argue the merits or the pitfalls of my approach.

In 1997, my teacher basically went public with his baji and that is pretty much our trademark now (although there are classes that train in 8 Step Praying Mantis as a base and then learn some forms in 7 Star, Mei Hua, Mi Men etc.).

There is no one in our Center or any of my teacher's students who have significant training in our system of bagua. He has, however, opened up some of the jiben gong training to a few remaining formal students and none is teaching. So I can't really say that if you come into our school you can really major in bagua. There are only two or three students I know who even train seriously in the bagua basics. I defer to the expertise of Count and others who have trained longer in the Wu Tan(g)'s system of bagua.



Current and Future direction: Stay in the basics, that's where the gold lies.

[omarthefish]

We've talked a bit about this before but I never tire of Baji! background. It's interesting how all the Baji guys seem to have a Bagua and taiji but not Xingyi. My Baji! teacher has not, to my knowledge, really taught bagua to anyone. He has a couple of students who play bagua but not much and I don't know if they learned it from him. He has given me guidance in my bagua practice but not instruction per se.

With bagua, I'm about as much in the basics as you can get. 8 mother palms all the way. I know a couple other drills and a couple palm changes but that's about it. I'm still dying to know what system his (yours? ours?) system of bagua is. It seems pretty clear that the bagua I got in America was Gao style but in China....he just won't say, only "There is no bagua but Dong Haichuan's bagua!" :D You know how that works.

Omar

[Muppet]

Learning baji and hsing i almost seems a lesson in redundancy--if not in technique, at least in fighting strategy.

It's also interesting to note that for both, there are evasive styles to complement the training (baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua).

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Muppet
Learning baji and hsing i almost seems a lesson in redundancy--if not in technique, at least in fighting strategy.

It's also interesting to note that for both, there are evasive styles to complement the training (baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua).

(baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua) = Chen Taiji?? LOL. J/K.