Too much fighting in stick fighting?

[rogue]

This morning I was getting some pointers from a friend on stick fighting. He contends that most of the FMA stuff taught isn't effiecient and concentrates too much on dueling (lack of commitment when attacking), concentrates too much on the stick and doesn't bring the whole body into play. In his words you're a stick fighter rather than being a fighter with a stick. Trying to defang the snake from the inside didn't work on him and got me dumped in the mud. His background is in Japanese and Okinawan martial arts and stick fighting, a little FMA and a long career in the military.


I've sent him the URL for the Dog Brothers site to see what he thinks.

[sapphire tygre]

Heres something you might find interesting. I knew an old Indian (India) man who carried a stick everywhere, and he told me that in northern India the people train with these, he told me he was good with it but I didn't get a demonstration. I believe him though because later they had his life story in the newspaper(he was in Aucthwitz) Anyway his stick was probably 6 ft.

[SevenStar]

What did he do to dump you in the mud?

[carly]

I've seen kali guys who
-trained for fun/sport with lots of repeated point hitting.
-trained for self-defense with no-nonsense stuff.
-trained elaborate stuff that wasn't necessary to perform after an opponent had been hit once hard.

[Kinjit]

Well, perhaps that's true for some FMA. From the little I've done though, those statements are total BS.

[carly]

there's LOTS of really effective-at-fighting FMA people.

[yenhoi]

Trying to defang the snake from the inside didn't work on him and got me dumped in the mud

what do you mean by this? You tried to disarm his stick from an inside gate or you tryed to smash his biceps and triceps to make his arm useless or what?

sounds like you went looking for a disarm and he popped you one. dont hunt for disarms.

as far as what your pal thinks of FMA, thats only from his limited experience and reeks of style generalization - consider the vast number of styles and martial arts and methods that make up "FMA."

:eek:

[rogue]

What did he do to dump you in the mud? Which time? Since the ground is soaked here he swept me, tripped me and just plain side kicked me down. Outside of using his stick to clear or counter my stick he didn't use it much at all and then it was about 50% two handed stuff. My glove and a somewhat new pair of crosstrainers are ruined with clay. I got away with some nice black and blues from the light jabs he gave me to the chest, shoulder and thigh.


You tried to disarm his stick from an inside gate or you tryed to smash his biceps and triceps to make his arm useless or what?
sounds like you went looking for a disarm and he popped you one. dont hunt for disarms.That's close. I was going for closest weapon to nearest target which should have been his arm. That's what I was taught and that's what I do. While I was trying to stay in "stick" range he just always managed to get in close. He just refused to do what he was supposed to which was stay out where his stick was most effective.:) I've never been close to Dog Brothers level with sticks and have let what little skill I had go, but I thought I'd at least be able to get a few clean hits on him. I just sucked and need to get into some good training.


there's LOTS of really effective-at-fighting FMA people. Sure are, but there is alot of dualing type training going on in alot of the schools. He also feels this way about most martial arts schools and styles not just the FMA. He's big on commitment when fighting and training. Given his background I can see where he's coming from.


as far as what your pal thinks of FMA, thats only from his limited experience and reeks of style generalization - consider the vast number of styles and martial arts and methods that make up "FMA." He actually has alot of experience with various arts. I do know that he's referring to what's being taught and not the FMA.

[rogue]

So back to the question, Is there too much fighting (dueling) in stick fighting?

[yenhoi]

From my exp, no - but its all in how you train man. Some train to engage, close gap, take out opponent vs maintain range and exchange blows etc. I know several stick fighters that prefer the second, and are good at it.

I dunno - I have never been to a FMA 'mcdojo' or large commercial FMA buisness/academy etc, just backyards and parks and basements etc.

Sounds like he was much better then you in general, and had a better game goal then you did - to take you out vs you trying to hit is hands.

Also much FMA teaches through what they call the 'labratory method' where you will train 2 sets of skills vs everything else. 1 set is for the "correct" response set from your opponent or in otherwords skilled, trained hands, the second set for "incorrect" response set to go along with untrained or unskilled hands, and also vs people who are better then you. No doubt he knew you were trying to hit his hands, when you did not know where he was trying to hit you.

[rogue]

Sounds like he was much better then you in general, and had a better game goal then you did - to take you out vs you trying to hit is hands. yenhoi, that is a gross understatement. :D What he was trying to show me was to not trade shots but commit to the attack or defense. We also did this a while back with my sparring as I had fallen into the trading shots there too.


From my exp, no - but its all in how you train man. Some train to engage, close gap, take out opponent vs maintain range and exchange blows etc. I know several stick fighters that prefer the second, and are good at it. I've had it drilled into me that ranges for blades are in and sticks are out. I'd think that the close and take the guy out method would be the more efficient of the two for street work. I've seen that some stick fighting guys are adding grappling and ground fighting to their mix which sounds pretty cool.

I woke up around 4 this morning and started downing Motrin and putting on the Flexall. I'm hurting from light contact not even the insane DB stuff, I don't see how those guys do this for fun. I'm heading back to his place in a little while to workout some more and watch some vids.

[yenhoi]

Yah. Sticks = pain. Thats why you learn to dodge them faster then wimpy man-hands. :)

:D

[yenhoi]

What did he say about your footwork?

[MaFuYee]

**** rogue.

sounds like you're still having fun.

it's been a while since i've looked in here; but, don't i remember you saying something about not doing any more sparring? - getting to beat up, or something? (was that you?)

[MaFuYee]

... uh... that was "d@mn".

D@MN! DAMMN ****IT DARN DAYUM

[Knifefighter]

Rogue:
I agree with your friend. Many people who train stick fighting are quite dismayed when they go full-on for the first time against a truly committed opponent.

[apoweyn]

Rogue,

I'm with Knifefighter on this one. Yenhoi and Kinjit are obviously right that there's a lot more to FMA than stick dueling. But I think that was essentially your friend's point too, yeah? That people tend to overlook the bigger picture.

I first learned FMA in a 'McDojo.' I had good teachers. Well qualified. From a sound lineage. But their priorities were still to run a commercially successful school with a lot of students. Largely kids. (The school taught both FMA and taekwondo.)

I think the school did an excellent job of teaching the basics. I think my footwork is one of my biggest strengths, and I have them to thank for that. But where they didn't shine was teaching us how to put it all together. We learned single stick, double stick, stick and dagger, knifefighting, empty hand, etc. We did forms (don't ask), full-contact sparring, drills, etc. But we didn't take it as far as it could go, in my opinion.

There was definitely an emphasis on stick dueling. When we sparred stick, we could sweep or disarm, but we couldn't punch or kick. When we fought empty hand, we weren't (in my opinion) sufficiently trained to use more distinctive FMA movements. Our footwork, kicking, and hands tended to resemble taekwondo (since several of us had or were also training in taekwondo), but with low-line targets available for kicking.

It was largely a self-driven effort to go beyond that. (And I still haven't done enough.)

I think your friend is right that the stick (knife, sword, etc.) should be regarded as part of a bigger picture. One disclaimer though: Part of why we weren't encouraged to kick in a stick fight, for example, was that it would be relatively easy for your opponent to bash your shin, knee, etc. with his stick, making kicking a slightly more risky proposition than in strictly empty hand. But that doesn't translate into 'don't kick.' Only 'kick appropriately.'


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

It seems to me that using sticks and kicking almost go hand in hand. You have extended range because of your sticks, add kicking to that and you might be able to keep your opponent at bay. Psychologically the sticks may occupy more of your opponents attention then your feet as well?

[yenhoi]

You better engage his hands or stick or sticks if you are going to kick him red5. Even lowline kicks etc. Else your just giving him free beer.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Word.

I'm actually inclined to think that kicks are especially ill suited for a stickfight because their optimal range is also optimal range for the stick. and an optimally ranged stick across the shin/knee/ankle/etc. just isn't any fun.

That said, as always, it comes down to timing, angling, etc.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

Right, I agree that you had better have his arms/sticks engaged but that is what I am talking about. It seems to m ethat now you have three weapons at the same "range" you can use, however, I must bow to your greater knowledge in this since I have no actual idea. It was just somehting I had thought of a while back.

[apoweyn]

Red5Angel,

Oh yeah. If you can tie up or otherwise create an opening, you're absolutely right. I was sparring with a different group (a JKD group) in a park one evening. They were eager to spar with me because I'd won some trophies at WEKAF tournaments.

Anyway, we're sparring away, and the guy bats my stick aside and wails me in the gut with a front kick. End of match.

So yeah, I agree with you that it's viable. But definitely to be used intelligently. (You'd think that would go without saying, but a lot of people just seem to kick for the sake of it.)


Stuart B.

[Black Jack]

"Is their to much duelling in stick fighting?"

I believe in the benefits of sparring period, be it stick, knife or hand to hand, but lets call it what it is, its two players who are in a agreed on mano vrs mano position, both armed with impact weapons, both at a respectable starting range from which to bridge the gap and starting testing out their martial skills in a relative safe enviroment.

Have some and will some violent encounters be at this matched off duelling range with both attackers armed, of course, but it is more likely that you will be armed with a everyday item, like a mag lite, a umbrella, golfclub or hammer, you will want to use the element of suprise by being pre-emptive, hit first-hit hard and keep hitting untell the threat is finnished.

I see this principle taught more in the structure of a drill than as an element of duelling.

Rogue,

Were you using singlestick one-handed sparring or were you using a two handed method. I tend to favor a two-handed western approach to working with impact weapons, by two-handed I mean like bayonet fencing. My two-handed stuff is from the ww2 styers/kengla and fairbairn methods, as well as some engilsh walking stick and cosh.

The power you can get from using two hands and the end of a stick in a thrust or jab is scary. Not to mention the added power behind your swings and smashes as well as a much tigher weapon retention.

One-handed work is still a key stick element of course.

[apoweyn]

black jack always makes good points on this subject. i remember you were the guy that first (in my experience) drew the distinction between 'knife dueling' and 'knife fighting.' assassination, i think you called the latter.


stuart b.

[Black Jack]

Thanks Ap,

It seems all relative from where a person is from, if I was born in the rough and tumble poor villages of the phillipine islands or in America's 19th century where a more face to face blade culture was part of everyday life than I would put more sole faith in just duelling methods as that might be something that has the same percentage of happening as a mugging or robbery.

[Kinjit]

As I've said before, I'm just a beginner, but ive done some free (empty handed) response training against knife in pekiti-tirsia. It focused on redirecting the blade, stunning the guy, etc to give you enough time to run away. It's pretty different from some other knife stuff I've seen. FWIW :)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Were you using singlestick one-handed sparring or were you using a two handed method. I tend to favor a two-handed western approach to working with impact weapons, by two-handed I mean like bayonet fencing. My two-handed stuff is from the ww2 styers/kengla and fairbairn methods, as well as some engilsh walking stick and cosh.

Interesting... are you using this method with shorter sticks or longer staff-length weapons?

My experience is has been that, unless the weapon is at least the length of a baseball bat, two-handed gets you crunched by an experienced stick fighter.

[rogue]

Were you using singlestick one-handed sparring or were you using a two handed method. I tend to favor a two-handed western approach to working with impact weapons, by two-handed I mean like bayonet fencing. My two-handed stuff is from the ww2 styers/kengla and fairbairn methods, as well as some engilsh walking stick and cosh. I was using my rataan escrima stick one handed, he was using a hardwood hanbo and jo both one and two handed. after clearing my stick he used the thrust to my chest, shoulder and thigh.


My experience is has been that, unless the weapon is at least the length of a baseball bat, two-handed gets you crunched by an experienced stick fighter. That'd be the jo Knifefighter, which is about 4 feet +. That's what he mainly used and he used a two handed baseball bat swing to clear my stick and then knocked me down with a side kick. That hit sent a helluva jolt through my arm. He uses alot of body in his hits with his elbows close to his body, rather the arms out like some FMA style stick fighters. It's probably slower than the FMA stick but the idea was to hit hard, move in and finish.

Yenhoi, footwork didn't come up but he was using Japanese style footwork. Real flowy and gliding to the outside or straight in. Straight in meant I was going to get a shoulder or a tricep to the chest. oooof. What I was working on was not to dance around but to make or find an opportunity with as little backward movement. Side and front good, back not so good. I sucked.

Sunday we did tonfa vs stick and that was alot of fun. Also took some of Dr Daniels liquid pain killer and muscle relaxer while watching Vunaks Street Safe II. Paul explaining stick fighting is hilarious when one has a buzz on. :p

[Knifefighter]

Rogue:
You found out what a lot of stick fighters find out in their first DB Gathering- the strength of the power game and the weakness of the finesse game.

[rogue]

I don't know how you guys do it KF. Do you DB guys think of yourselves as your own style of stick fighting?

[Black Jack]

Whats up guys,

Knife,

I tend to believe that any stout impact weapon "starting" about 22 inches in length will do for two handed stick work. You could do that with a large mag lite, broken towel rack, shovel handle, standard rattan stick, a blackthorn walking stick, umbrella, crooked cane, hardwood cudgel, lathi, livestock/pig stick, a jo....whatever. Some dynamics may change but the basic principles are still there.

I believe in the power game with sticks, the volume one dog brothers "power" tape is a good example of this aspect of stickplay, I believe the two-handed methods fit deeply within this factor, though there is always a trade off between one hand handed operations and double handed moves.

That trade off being aspects like power (two handed more power), commitment (two handed swings use more commitment than lighter and faster sticks) and recovery time (which is all equal to the attributes and skills of the player as well as the stick used), a bigger stick swing works different with momentum and centrifigal force, depending on how heavy you chamber the weapon and let it fly.

Their is more to do with two-handed work than just swings though, depending on if you are using a short end or long end method, my basic stuff consists of four types of strikes when I have two hands on the stick.

1. Thrust/Poke- This is the bread and butter strike. Drive the point/small end of the stick into an exposed target with full forward drive. This also works very well with one hand.

2. Bar Smash- Using full power of the arms and shoulders you use the middle of the impact weapon to smash the target. Up under the chin, down onto the nose, into the throat or the forehead. You get the idea.

3. Swings- Chambered hybrid baseball swings-the ****her you go back you get the idea.

4. Strokes- As in butt strokes. Good for close in work.

Add in some basic combat chokes and takedowns and you have it.

What is important to me though is that I can change my grip from one handed to two handed use. If I want to work really up close I can go to a short end method-picture a reverse knife grip and as an example hit him with a up swing into the neck area or grab onto his clothes with my free hand to help ride him and start to thrust with the small end into his solar plexius and "then" when the opportunity arises whip the stick into my free hand for a bar smash under the chin.

In the sparring game would a fighter be overrun by just using a two handed method. I would say it has to do with the not just the size of the stick but the players involved. IMHO it is about who sets and maintains the range and pace that often wins. Pure out aggression is a key element. Kinda like the Saxon housecarls who fought off norman knights with their very heavy two handed war axes.

I have had both ups and downs in sparring as for one thing I have to be very-very carefull about thrusting the tip of a hardwood cane into another human being. It does not work like that. There is alot of pounds per squre inch and you have to moderate and pull your thrusts. IMHO it is better used in contact scenrio stroke/drills even a foam stick hurts like a mother, these help to develop aggression, follow through and the grove of just being ballistic in your attacks and on to use equipment striking drills for developing power.

Hope I made any sense.

[yenhoi]

Bruises from pokes heal slower then bruises from strokes.

:D

I really dislike getting hit by sticks.

[myosimka]

Every method of training has its limitations and it's important to recognize them and compensate. Clearly extensive stick dueling is a problem and produces alot of the flicky sort of handwork that can be a problem. I have an obvious bias but it seems many stick styles are way too heavy on wrist and arm power and understate hips and footwork as a result they get good speed but not power.
And anybody who has felt there arm collapse when they tried to stop a good lobtek knows the benefits of power. That being said, if you are using sticks to simulate bladed weapons then the need for speed and evasion seems to dominate over power. (Still think that's going to be more about footwork than wrists but like I said, I have a bias.) I've seen guys that made the finesse game work, rarer than the power but still happens.

Rogue,
Can't say what the shortcomings were and strengths of his approach as I didn't see it but I would hesitate to throw everything out. I have pretty quick hands and fight standing pretty well. Losing to any given guy doesn't change that. They may just be better. There may be an iherent issue in your training but there may not.

There is a definite flavor to many DB guys. And they definitely know their stuff. My only complaint is they seem to expose their heads an awful lot and rely on headgear, but then I only know a few candidates.

Wow, this was a directionless ramble!! Time to hit the hay.

[thekuntawman]

you should look for a philippine martial arts teacher who actually did some fighitng. most of the teachers here in the US learned in seminars, and they do almost none at all fighitng in those seminars. so now, you have a bunch of teachers with certificates, "sound lineage" good reputation becuase of the organization style and teacher they come from, but he cant fight because nobody taught him how. now he is teaching, and what can he show to you? drills, storys and promisings that these drills will make you a great fighter.

there aint to many authentic, deserving teachers around but you can find them if you look. the seminar is the same as "10 easy lessons" i dont care how much reputation they got.

we have a saying, that fighting ability and effectiveness can only be proven not demonstrated. and another is the true reputation of a fighter is built by your enemies not your friends. the seminar people know nothing about that.