Using The Shin

[apeters28]

Does anyone here do a wheel kick with their shins like in Muay Thai? If so, how do you train your shins to take blows? I use the shoe string area mostly to kick and I don't have a lot of confidence in my shins.

Any thoughts would be helpful

[SevenStar]

The shin is alot harder than the instep and capable of inflicting more damage. There have been several shin conditioning threads here and on the training forum - just do a search.

[Sho]

The "shoe string area" has many small and brittle bones that can fracture pretty easily. It would be better to condition the shins and consume an adequate amount of calcium, which would make it safer for your bones.

[Former castleva]

I do not find shin conditioning practical.

[Sho]

Former castleva, what do you mean?

If you want to kick with your shins, why shouldn't you condition them? They're pretty sensitive without conditioning.

[Former castleva]

This is not to be taken as ultimate truth.
I would not wish to kick with my shins that much,to kick a shin is a different deal (as noted,weak they are)
I understand the need of shin conditioning for a "serious martial artist" so to speak but I´m sticking with the "priorities".
I´d think that the time to condition one´s shinbones (which may crush under pressure of a heavy kick) could be spent training something.If you do your kicking for good and possibly cross-train with walking/running or weightlifting (resistance is what we´re looking for) you simultaneously strengthen various areas (bone density increases)
I realize how ppl of the old days used to do all kinds of rigorous conditioning which might have been necessary to stay alive,some of the exercises going as far as conditioning the throat or hammering the chest for conditioning are some of the more scary and highly dangerous examples.
However,some of these legends may best be left alone.
Many vital areas cannot be conditioned wisely,and it is rather questionable if that is something to strive for.
One could condition his head (or try to) in order to not fracture it if push came to shove (alternatively,as in Chinese saying there was a man who was afraid that the sky would fall on his fragile head.However,the other guy reminded him that it is rather unlikely and he would better take his time being worried about something else) or if he would fall off the bike,fortunately we do have helmets for that.
If for shin´s sake,best try to do it carefully to save the nerves.

[Sho]

Well why couldn't shin conditioning be part of one's priorities? I mean, in my opinion, shin kicks are quite important and it's not a big deal to condition them.

[Former castleva]

Yeah.I see.
You will eventually set your priorities and that´s a reasonable thing.

:)

[Sho]

We're all different. :)

[Former castleva]

Folk science at it´s best. :)

I suppose I could post these too.

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000035.html

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5131

[Surferdude]

If you condition your shins be carefull.... If you go too far you could seriously screw the rest of your life up.... your shins will get calcium on em and if you dont keep conditioning the turn too mush Thats not good:(

[SevenStar]

turn to mush?

[premier]

I guess doing a load of roundhouse kicks with your shins to a heavy bag regularly is the easiest and most practical way of conditioning the shins and insteps. And maybe put shin pads on and practise shin blocks with a partner.

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by SevenStar
turn to mush?

Yea if you dont keep conditioning it will turn to mush and you cant walk!!!!:( Not good

[ricksitterly]

i dont need any shin conditioning

if i need to kick in a fight, my boots are solid enough

[Merryprankster]

Surfer, that's a myth, like muscle "turning to fat."

Doesn't happen.

[Surferdude]

My instructor does muay thai.... He did it for 20 years, he stopped for awhile and now his calcium turned to mush!!!! He told me....
Not good now he cant strech or walk right!!!!!:(

Edit:
Wait he broke his leg nevermind!!!!:o

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by premier
I guess doing a load of roundhouse kicks with your shins to a heavy bag regularly is the easiest and most practical way of conditioning the shins and insteps. And maybe put shin pads on and practise shin blocks with a partner.

yeah, that's also probably the safest way, and the way that I would reccomend.

[Starchaser107]

came to jamaica and held a seminar before the fights. he was introducing the american style kickboxing.
he said that he wasnt much of a fan of muay thai method because of the shin kicks. he said a considerable amount of thai fighters developed blodclots in thier legs and died later on in life due to shin kicks.

mind you this ,in my opinion ,might have been due to improper or non existent conditioning , i do not know for a fact.
I have never heard of people sustaining injuries on a significant scale and dying later on after thier retirement due to these blodclots.

Does anyone know enough on this to discuss.

I train Sanshou, the kickboxing rules are weird and they dont incooperate as much as sanshou offers. anyway just asking since this is about shins.

[Merryprankster]

All the MT coaches I know with some age on them are going strong and then some.

I still believe it's a myth. It makes no sense at all. Could also be genetics, disease or nutritional issues.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I still believe it's a myth.

It IS a myth.

[fa_jing]

I never conditioned my shins. But I found that that same spot I keep hitting when I clash legs with the opponent sparring, became a lot harder and I would no longer get hurt there. As far as conditioning shins for use as a weapon, they hurt the other guy plenty already. I could go that extra mile and condition my shins, fists, forearms etc. but I'm just not serious enough and I don't like that kind of pain - I like going to the end of my muscular endurance but I don't like the pain of banging. I get some moderate forearm conditioning just from certain two man drills. If I get a wooden man one day I would be conditioning the forearms too. But I am not into 3-star blocking, etc.

[apoweyn]

former castlevania,

i don't understand. the shin is easily broken? i personally doubt it's more easily broken than the small bones of the foot.

personally, i think i cut the difference and use the area slightly above the 'shoe laces.'


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Ap - I hear that's not the "sweet spot" of the shin for hitting. It's a little ****her up, like on a baseball bat. But I'm no expert.

[MightyB]

1) Take a rolling pin and roll it up and down the sensitive areas of your shins at least 15 times both ways. Increase the pressure and number of reps as your body permits. Do the entire length of your shin. 2) Also, kick the bottom of your heavy bag. It is better to do this with a thai banana bag if you have access to one. 3) Spar without shinpads and just get used to it.

[apoweyn]

fa_jing,

i think you're absolutely right. it's an old habit of mine from taekwondo that's dying hard. i haven't gotten used to the shin idea yet. (but not because i suspect it's more easily broken than the foot. that just doesn't make any sense to me.)


stuart b.

[Xebsball]

conditioning the shins is good.
becouse its a good striking surface and also to prevent injury when you are fighting other people (or animals) and they hit you on the shin.

[Former castleva]

Apoweyn,
If you´re talking about instep,toes,ankle etc. yes,you are probably right.
Shin is thicker than those areas for sure,but it still is a sensitive area.As said earlier,do what rocks your boat.
I walk plenty,that´s good for my legs...what I´m more concerned about besides having fun are the benefits for various external tissues and cardiovascular system etc. Not if my shin withstands getting hit by a car.
Just another analogy of course.

[apoweyn]

former castlevania,

i hear ya. obviously, doing yourself permanent detriment isn't something to take lightly.

but if the foot is easier to injur than the shin (and i expect it is), and a serious injury to the foot could also affect your ability to walk, then is kicking at all very wise?

are martial arts very wise?


stuart b.

[Former castleva]

Well that´s a fine question of course.

If we assume that you would have to kick (someone) it is very likely that you will have shoes on,this will take plenty of danger off when it comes to hurting your own foot.
There´s the principle of "right weapon for right target",thus your protected,tough parts of foot that are going to hit are hitting those unprotected,naturally fragile areas (They do not need any specific condition that I would know of)
A lot of the kicks are done with either outer blade,heel or ball of foot which are rather solid,for these there are certain rules to be applied.
Toes and insteps are fragile (target areas) but can be used as weapons in certain cases,provided they hit right.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Well that´s a fine question of course.

If we assume that you would have to kick (someone) it is very likely that you will have shoes on,this will take plenty of danger off when it comes to hurting your own foot.

Good answer. Your foot is somewhat protected by shoes. But your shins aren't at all protected by pants.

Which leads us back to conditioning the shin, which you maintain isn't a great idea. So if you're right about that, logically this all makes sense.

If you're not right about it, you're still right that the foot is somewhat protected by your shoes. So you're still right.


There´s the principle of "right weapon for right target",thus your protected,tough parts of foot that are going to hit are hitting those unprotected,naturally fragile areas (They do not need any specific condition that I would know of)
A lot of the kicks are done with either outer blade,heel or ball of foot which are rather solid,for these there are certain rules to be applied.
Toes and insteps are fragile (target areas) but can be used as weapons in certain cases,provided they hit right.

Well, right, but the same could be true of the shin too, really. Hard parts against soft parts. If you're successful in following that rule, then you probably needn't ever condition the shins. Shin vs. shin requires conditioning. Shin versus thigh, perhaps not so much.


Stuart B.

[Former castleva]

"Well, right, but the same could be true of the shin too, really. Hard parts against soft parts. If you're successful in following that rule, then you probably needn't ever condition the shins. Shin vs. shin requires conditioning. Shin versus thigh, perhaps not so much."

Yeah.
Theoretically,if you are close enough to hit with a shin (which is probably rarely necessary) you could as well strike or even use your knee,which is structurally strong when used for offense.
I agree with "shin vs shin",that would take conditioning but to use a shin that way is just nuts.
Similar to headbutting forehead vs forehead,both are as likely to suffer.
Shin versus thigh could be a good idea since it is unlikely that the shin would collapse against a muscle (thigh bone is very strong but if you are actually going for a thigh with a shin,you must better be after a nerve)

[apoweyn]

Yeah. Theoretically,if you are close enough to hit with a shin (which is probably rarely necessary) you could as well strike or even use your knee,which is structurally strong when used for offense.

Hmm... I'm far more leery about hitting someone with my knee, oddly enough. I know it's done. A lot. In most martial arts systems. But it might have something to do with my sister's 12 knee operations. The whole subject of knees puts me on edge.

:)


I agree with "shin vs shin",that would take conditioning but to use a shin that way is just nuts.
Similar to headbutting forehead vs forehead,both are as likely to suffer.

Well, yeah. But I'm not advocating attacking someone's shin with my shin. But shin blocks versus shin kicks are a time-honoured technique. When that happens, the guy with the better-conditioned shin is generally going to feel better about the whole thing.


Shin versus thigh could be a good idea since it is unlikely that the shin would collapse against a muscle (thigh bone is very strong but if you are actually going for a thigh with a shin,you must better be after a nerve)

Right. Besides, that would make the round kick viable at a closer range than 'long' as well.


Stuart B.

[premier]

It doesn't matter if you kick with your shin, instep, ankle or ball of the foot. If your opponent blocks with his shin and he's better conditioned, your fight ends right there. I've been there done that. It hurts like a... you know.

We can't count on our opponent not knowing how to use their shins to block.

[apoweyn]

Amen.

[Suntzu]

so youre rolling sticks up and down your leg… kickin trees and poles… etc etc… because of this your shins are sore… fight time comes… they may or may not be heeled… if they are not heeled… all of that 'conditioning' for nothing… I just go by kicking the bag and pads... anything beyond that is a lil excessive...

Ap- didn't i see u was tryin your hands(and legs) on some MT???

[apoweyn]

Ap- didn't i see u was tryin your hands(and legs) on some MT???

Hmm... Sort of, yeah. I've done a little of it with my previous JKD-type class. And I'm 'planning' to attend Khun Kao's muay thai class, as soon as the other things I'm 'planning' (grad school applications, mostly) get shifted to the back burner.

At which time, I'll obviously be addressing the whole shin conditioning question head on.


Stuart B.

[Former castleva]

"Hmm... I'm far more leery about hitting someone with my knee, oddly enough. I know it's done. A lot. In most martial arts systems. But it might have something to do with my sister's 12 knee operations. The whole subject of knees puts me on edge."

Nasty,enough said.
:eek:

"Well, yeah. But I'm not advocating attacking someone's shin with my shin. But shin blocks versus shin kicks are a time-honoured technique. When that happens, the guy with the better-conditioned shin is generally going to feel better about the whole thing."

I do not know but I´m worried about techniques which require the player to take changes on whether he´ll stand it or not-force vs force.
It is rather unpredictable when it comes to what is going to come out of that,of course we could argue that in a situation like that,there is not much comfort included.
This reminds me of your average forearm block for a jab defense. :)
You may very well clash,but if we assume that you are blocking/parrying outwards from your center,your outer forearm with it´s muscle tissue is bashing the opponent´s inner-,targeting unprotected nerves,possibly immobolizing the arm or breaking the fragile bone at best.
Get the idea?

In a decent leg (shin) block,at least as far as I know,you would align the way that you are taking the shot (what kick it ever is) rather to your outer calf (with it´s muscle being able to consume it) than directly to the unprotected shin (ouch)
Just my idea.

"Right. Besides, that would make the round kick viable at a closer range than 'long' as well. "
Somewhat slower than a direct attack but yes.

[Suntzu]

*hi-jacking in progress* we need another get together… oooohhh yeah grad school… I forgot al about that :eek:... yeah... one of these days...

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Nasty,enough said.
:eek:

You ain't kidding.


I do not know but I´m worried about techniques which require the player to take changes on whether he´ll stand it or not-force vs force. It is rather unpredictable when it comes to what is going to come out of that,of course we could argue that in a situation like that,there is not much comfort included.


This reminds me of your average forearm block for a jab defense. :)
You may very well clash,but if we assume that you are blocking/parrying outwards from your center,your outer forearm with it´s muscle tissue is bashing the opponent´s inner-,targeting unprotected nerves,possibly immobolizing the arm or breaking the fragile bone at best.
Get the idea?

Yep. But having had some truly horrible forearm blocks used on me by a guy with better forearm conditioning, I'm something of a believer.


In a decent leg (shin) block,at least as far as I know,you would align the way that you are taking the shot (what kick it ever is) rather to your outer calf (with it´s muscle being able to consume it) than directly to the unprotected shin (ouch)
Just my idea.

Actually, that's the way I was taught shin blocks as well. But with the express understanding that we were learning it that way specifically because we hadn't conditioned our shins. The advantage, obviously, is the lessened abuse you take. The disadvantage is the lessened abuse you dole out. If your shins are conditioned and you block with them, your opponent could potentially take himself out of the game. It happened to us all the time in taekwondo. (Before I knew what a shin block was, I inadvertently used them all the time. We both wanted to kick, so we clashed shins a lot. I minded it less than the opponent. So he'd limp off. And I'd be relatively okay.)


Somewhat slower than a direct attack but yes.

Slower, yeah. But if you're engaging up top, the opening exists for the round kick low. So definitely not to be dismissed entirely.

Okay, I'm going home. Thanks FC.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Suntzu
*hi-jacking in progress* we need another get together… oooohhh yeah grad school… I forgot al about that :eek:... yeah... one of these days...

You're absolutely right. We do.

Merryprankster has a competition coming up, I think. So he's been concentrating on that. But soon, we'll plan another get together. Looking forward to it.


Stuart B.

[Former castleva]

Thank you.