Quick Quesiton

[Chinwoo-er]

I understand that forms are a very important part of the CMA training system. I would like to ask how many forms does members of this forum knows ? And how long have you been training to learn them ?

Cheers.

[Chang Style Novice]

I learned Chang Taiji short form first. That took about 3 months.

then, Elephant fist, about 2 months.

Then Taiji long form, about 5 months.

I haven't yet finished the Lohan "Ambush" form, but have only been studying it very intermittently.

[SevenStar]

wu bu chuan
16 step
tuan da
continuous attacking fist
18 arhat fist
5 animals
lien bu chuan

there are single technique forms from shuai chiao and judo that I know also.

I no longer train in longfist, but I still work the forms once a week or so. most of my forms work now are single technique forms from judo and shuai chiao, and drills we do in bjj. The two wushu and 5 longfist forms that I know were taught to me during the 4 years that I trained in longfist.

[dezhen2001]

hmmm... back in the day i used to know like 16 shotokan kata as well as some bo and sai stuff, also the aikido jo kata (21 step), and some shorinji kempo combinations.

nowadays i have forgotten most of that and only know these:

Siu Lim Tao (Wing Chun)

Balancing Gong (Qigong)
Healthy Living Gong 1 (Qigong)

and the 27 exercises from Heavenly River Monastery Hard Qigong (but i focus on the ones for my level only) :)

Its interesting though when i play aikido on rare occasions with my friends what still comes out though :D

dawood

[ricksitterly]

"nowadays i have forgotten most of that and only know these:"


maybe that's because the mind has a tendency to forget useless rubbish. psshh forms are stuuupid :) boxers dont do forms

[morbicid]

grapplers dont do forms either.... hmmm.......maybe thats why they kick kung fu's butt in NHB fights

[SevenStar]

I wasn't even thinking about karate. I still know the first 5 or 6 from back in my karate days and also sanchin, but never practive them anymore. when I was younger, I knew 4 tang soo do forms.

[Laughing Cow]

I know about 8 different TJQ forms, plus forgot many forms from other styles I learned.
Some styles have tons of them others have only a few.

Time it takes to learn a form depends a lot on the Sifu and the way it is taught to you.

I once learned a 98 movement from in 4 month and not only halfway through a 83 form after 6 month.

I once heard that the Yang 108 form if taught in the traditional method will take 5~6yrs.

Your study time will also depend on personal aspects as well as experience in related styles.

[dezhen2001]

maybe that's because the mind has a tendency to forget useless rubbish. psshh forms are stuuupid boxers dont do forms true but boxers dont do traditional chinese MA either :cool:

dawood

[CrippledAvenger]

weren't there kung fu styles with no forms? I thought I remembered somebody talking about those once.

[SevenStar]

shuai chiao doesn't have any in the sense of strings of techniques put together in sequence. The forms are just singular techniques.

[Chang Style Novice]

Crippled Avenger-

shuai chiao doesn't have forms per se, in the sense of long sequences of 'shadow boxing' techniques. It does have short, single movement solo drills that don't require an opponent or equipment, though. 7* referred to them upthread.

edit:
And in the crosspost!

Great minds think alike, eh bud? Not sure what that has to do with you and me, though.

[CrippledAvenger]

Thanks guys, but I think I was thinking of another style... something that wasn't grappling oriented. I dunno. maybe it'll come back to me.

[PHILBERT]

1

Sil Lum Tao

[count]

I would say it's a big difference between learning a form and memorizing a set of movements. IMO. forms are somewhat important. Not very important. Some styles of kung fu have no forms at all. Yi chuan for example. Each movement of Tai Chi is considered a form in itself. I've been working on my current form for almost 2 years now. But the more I learn of it the more I realize, I could spend a lifetime on a section of it and still not know it. Over the past 25 years I have learned lot's of forms. Forgotten more than most people will ever memorize. Maybe the shadow of these memorization's affects the way I approach martial arts but I tend to rely on basics more than sets for training. How about you Chinwoo-er? How many kung fu forms do you know and how long do you spend learning them? How big a proportion of your training are forms?

Cheers back at ya! :cool:

[Chinwoo-er]

me ? Well, just around 20. Not including my karate and TKD forms. If we include those, just around 40 ( But I rarely practice my TKD ones now ).

I would disagree (ok, so now I am a troll ) with the notion that forms are not as important as emphasized. The ability to use CMA effectively is the ability to use the "combos" that forms provide ( as well as the combos that are not obvious in the forms). In addition to our ability to change from one form to another should the situation calls for it. Things like a straight punch is routine in almost every form ( ok, depends on your style, but you know what I mean ). But whether we are able to know when to use which form's strategy is a very different concept. If we were to train single moves we would actually be moving back in the evolution of MA to before the Ming dunasty when martial arts were a collection of them. I am not saying that single moves are not effective, but we shoud be able to understand why forms were developed - so that we can have more than on move should that move we are using get broken or people doesn't get downed by it.
True, in order to face other MMA people, we would need to train specifically to counteract their moves. But that is already somewhat outside the context of which the majority of CMA was created for. Besides, I keep hearing about CMA having no groundfighting. CMA actually has ALOT of groundfighting. Probably not as much as ground specialists like BJJ, but one would be mistaken if they think it only have two or three simple moves. If you look at Monkey style ( not the Tai shing pek qua, The Mizong), half of it is build for ground fighting. It is just that it is not solely a grappling art. It also include strikes and jumps as well as moves to handle a standing person.

ok, thats around the end of my trolling.

LONG LIVE THE TROLLS !!!

[Braden]

Why would you want more than one? :D

[Prairie]

I can only claim knowledge of one form: chen style laojia yilu.

I can work through a couple of other sets, but they are definitely not at the point where I'd say I know them.

I believe that Yiquan doesn't use forms. Anyone know if this is correct?

[Mr Punch]

I only know one Form and That is Human.

My Being whispers that I used to know Others... but They are lost with the centuries.

[count]

Chinwoo-er,

In truth, I was the troll this time. ;) But I don't agree that you use forms or "combos" from forms in a fight. In fact, which forms have combinations in them? Hell, I don't even believe you use applications from forms in a fight. What forms have movements that are set applictions. (except maybe your TKD and Karate forms) In fact, I think if you think about forms in a fight, you will get your ass kicked. Forms teach many things, fighting is not (IMO) one of them. Forms teach intent, alignment, power, coordination, mechanics, endurance and many other principles you bring to a fight, but you don't fight with a form.

Prarie, I believe the same as I mentioned before the Yi chuan has no forms in their system. But I've only read about Yi chuan so we could be wrong.;)

Braden, which one? :)

Mat, pass the bong over, you've had enough.:p

[dezhen2001]

i thought Mat was trying to sound like No_Know :p
pretty good too!

dawood

[Cheese Dog]

How many forms? Let's see---

Taiyoku 1,2,3,4,5
Naihanchi 1
Sanchin
Tomari-te Seiuchin
Rohai
Pinan1,2
Tomari-te Seisan
Wansu
Chinto
Kusanku
Empi
Tiger and Crane
most of a Tang soo do kata, forget the name
3 Xing-I forms; metal, water and wood

So I guess 21!

As far as time spent learning, Chinto took me less than an hour, Tiger and Crane took about 2 months. On the other hand, I'm STILL learning new applications of even the simplest forms, so really none of them are ever MASTERED!

[Mr Punch]

Wasn't trying to sound like anyone... sure as **** is **** don't do any ****... There are just, how can I put this... hidden shallows to me you know!!!:D



OK, since it's my 1000th post, here's something relevant:

1) Aiki 31 count stick kata;
2) aiki 21 count stick kata;
3) aiki 15 count stick kata;
4) aiki 28 count stick kata.

All of these are basic stick techniques: strikes, sweeps, thrusts breaks, deflections, blocks. Nothing fancy. All bread and butter moves against other sticks, bokuto or unarmed (tried n tested thank you!)... and not necessary to perform in a sequence, although moves follow naturally from each other. Some are good ways to develop stick control and different energy strikes.

Keep forgetting one nonsense superfluous stick kata invented for no known reason and adding nothing useful to the others by a certain self-styled shihan... shame, need it for my progression through the grades...:rolleyes: Doesn't look like I'm going any further then... in that organisation!

5) Aiki 28 count sword kata.

From Yagyu kenjutsu. Very very nice. A couple of Errol Flynn moves but generally no-nonsense.

6) Aiki: The Basic Eight. 8 count paired 'kata'.

Definitely not a sequence. More like the basic striking waza (techniques). One guy steps in with a punch. Basic strikes to arm and body from back-step, side-step, front-side-step. There are then take downs should you need them.

7) Aiki: Bokuto vs stick kata. Forget how many moves, not many. Invented by my sensei. Very nice, very practical, little bit flash on occasion. If you get into it you can really let go, flow the techniques, change the rhythm around and it becomes more like sparring... especially when you forget the moves and improvise...!!!;) :D

Now forgotten shaolin stick form.

Now forgotten shotokan kata (friend showed me, can't even remember the name).

8) Sil lum tao (from some kungfu style, can't remember the name ;) !

9) Lama kuen 8 silk brocade chikung form (hard!).

Now forgotten 10 karate kata (all of the kata from a small eclectic style - some good stuff, and hardcore sparring, but too dogmatic).

Now largely forgotten Yang taichi short form.

9) Yang-style 8 silk brocade chikung form (wet!).

10) Another version of SLT.

11) Chum Kiu.

12-14) The three paired shodan kendo kata.

15) Another version of SLT.

16-17) The two paired nidan kendo kata.

18) Another version of ****ing CK.

19-24) The first six of the wooden dummy sets.

25) Biu jee.

So, not including the new versions of the WC stuff that each new bloody teacher expects me to learn from scratch, instead of just comparing and showing me the often miniscule difference between my 'old way' and the 'real way'... :mad: God, I hate WC!... 22 kata/forms... There are my secrets!! Why did I do that!?

Seems like a lot of forms... but the good news is, most of the stuff is pretty internalised now I think, mostly they are basic and I've practised them with all kinds of resistance... next stop UFC!:D :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

I want to learn 'continuous attacking fist'!!!:D

That has to be the coolest name for a form EVER!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Crippled Avenger-

shuai chiao doesn't have forms per se, in the sense of long sequences of 'shadow boxing' techniques. It does have short, single movement solo drills that don't require an opponent or equipment, though. 7* referred to them upthread.

edit:
And in the crosspost!

Great minds think alike, eh bud? Not sure what that has to do with you and me, though.

Maybe avg. minds think alike too. Hey, wait....we have minds???

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
I want to learn 'continuous attacking fist'!!!:D

That has to be the coolest name for a form EVER!

I'll have to show it to ya.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
me ? Well, just around 20. Not including my karate and TKD forms. If we include those, just around 40 ( But I rarely practice my TKD ones now ).

I would disagree (ok, so now I am a troll ) with the notion that forms are not as important as emphasized. The ability to use CMA effectively is the ability to use the "combos" that forms provide ( as well as the combos that are not obvious in the forms). In addition to our ability to change from one form to another should the situation calls for it. Things like a straight punch is routine in almost every form ( ok, depends on your style, but you know what I mean ). But whether we are able to know when to use which form's strategy is a very different concept. If we were to train single moves we would actually be moving back in the evolution of MA to before the Ming dunasty when martial arts were a collection of them. I am not saying that single moves are not effective, but we shoud be able to understand why forms were developed - so that we can have more than on move should that move we are using get broken or people doesn't get downed by it.
True, in order to face other MMA people, we would need to train specifically to counteract their moves. But that is already somewhat outside the context of which the majority of CMA was created for. Besides, I keep hearing about CMA having no groundfighting. CMA actually has ALOT of groundfighting. Probably not as much as ground specialists like BJJ, but one would be mistaken if they think it only have two or three simple moves. If you look at Monkey style ( not the Tai shing pek qua, The Mizong), half of it is build for ground fighting. It is just that it is not solely a grappling art. It also include strikes and jumps as well as moves to handle a standing person.

ok, thats around the end of my trolling.

LONG LIVE THE TROLLS !!!

training forms in that manner (with the intent of using the combos in combat) may get you hurt in combat. IMO, that's not the point of forms at all.

As far as single technique forms, I think those are actually more evolved than the multi - technique forms. I personally get more value out of them.

As far as ground fighting, yes, CMA has it. What it seems to lack is ground grappling. When someone is mounted on you pounding your lights out, trying to kick their knee and sweep them isn't gonna help at all.

[Chinwoo-er]

training forms in that manner (with the intent of using the combos in combat) may get you hurt in combat.

The answer to that is in my post.




As far as single technique forms, I think those are actually more evolved than the multi - technique forms. I personally get more value out of them.

I once said the same thing when I was in karate.




As far as ground fighting, yes, CMA has it. What it seems to lack is ground grappling.

Well, you obviously do not know CMA ground fighting. Not as much as BJJ I admit. But definately enough to make a stand ( or a lay down ):p





btw, can you go back to my original quesiton ? This discussion is best for in another thread

[Stryder]

8 step dragon
16 step dragon
5 elements
golden iron fist
tiger cross
choy li fut #1


also
most of a butterfly sword set
figure 8 broad sword
farmers hoe set