Waterboxing (6 harmonies & 8 methods) project? [Archive]

Prairie

02-23-2003, 11:44 AM

I believe it is possible to write many many pages on the linkage of taijiquan to Daoism. Look to the taiji classics and the Dao de Jing. There is also a relationship to the ba gua.

Baguazhang has linkages too. Look to links between this and the yi jing.

Xingyiquan has links too. 5 element theory?

Liu He Ba Fa ... I don't know anything about this art. (or the other ones really, but this one even less than nothing)

The linkages of these arts is in the underlying philosophy. I don't believe it's necessary to have a knowledge of daoism to practice these arts -- but it certainly makes the practice more fun.

Captain Chicken

02-23-2003, 03:34 PM

I think I read somewhere that the coach for the LA Lakers and former coach for Jordan's Chicago Bulls Phil Jackson is a Taoist and applies Taoism to his Offence. Maybe that is something you can look up?

cha kuen

02-23-2003, 07:50 PM

Oh yeah I remember some nba commentator saying that Phil Jackson is " the zen master!"

I got an idea for my project. I didn't know that hsing yi, and pa kua were taoist styles. I'll just do all three styles and get an easy 8-10 pages,

swmngdragn

02-23-2003, 08:57 PM

If you're still looking for information regarding Liu Ho Pa Fa; go to http://www.liuhopafa.com/

That's the current grand master/lineage head of the system's web site, Wai Lun Choi. You should be able to get quite a bit of info there for your project.

Shin

02-24-2003, 12:19 AM

Liu He ba fah has no head master. It is not a southern system, and is not organized in that fashion.

swmngdragn

02-24-2003, 11:42 AM

>Shin<

> Liu He ba fah has no head master. It is not a southern system, and is not organized in that fashion.<

Yeah..... Whatever, bud. If you're so knowledgable why don't you let the rest of us who actually train in the system in on your "insights". Yeesh :rolleyes:

Rockwood

02-24-2003, 02:16 PM

I met a fellow who learned Liu He Ba Fa from Li Dao-Li in Shanghai. He said that Wai Lun Choi was from a different lineage than his.

Swimming Dragon, I think there may be more than a few branches of this art, and although I haven't researched it myself, it's pretty hard to believe than anyone is the head master of the whole style.

Wouldn't it be more fair to say that he is the grandmaster of his particular branch?

-JessO

swmngdragn

02-24-2003, 06:24 PM

Hi, Jess. :)

>I met a fellow who learned Liu He Ba Fa from Li Dao-Li in Shanghai. He said that Wai Lun Choi was from a different lineage than his.<

That's a complicated matter, Jess. The art there still stems from Wu Yik Fan. The "Shanghai version" has no martial intent, and never has. It's a public variation of the long form. It's mainly for show, and nothing else. Wu, however, did create it, and promote it as "LHPF". In essence giving the masses what they wanted.

There are also several "branches" that have blended other styles with their incomplete knowledge of LHPF. I-Chuan/LHPF, Taiji/LHPF, etc... Plus there are P.R.C. wushu/performance oriented variations i.e. Liang Shou Yu/Helen Liang's version is a prime example. There is also Wei Lun Huang's version which is also a P.R.C. version. I have no idea where that particular form comes from. All I know is that it doesn't adhere to th principles inherent in our branch, nor does it hold any martial value imho.

> I think there may be more than a few branches of this art, and although I haven't researched it myself, it's pretty hard to believe than anyone is the head master of the whole style.<

In a way you are correct in the matter, but as I've said, it's complicated. Choi sifu, however, is recognized as the lineage head of the martial style of Hsin I Liu Ho Pa Fa Chuan.

>Wouldn't it be more fair to say that he is the grandmaster of his particular branch?<

See above. :)

>-JessO<

Water Dragon

02-24-2003, 06:48 PM

Drake,
If I remember correctly, the story says that of the generation that taught Wu I Hui, There were five teachers. I think it says that Wu I Hui learned from 3. Do you know if there are surviving branches from any of those 5 besides Mr. Choi's lineage?

Shin

02-24-2003, 10:17 PM

Hey Drake,

Quit obsessing over your teacher and your system, and worry about yourself.

looking_up

02-25-2003, 11:01 AM

Drake,

Any word on the 12 animals DVD?

Thanks,
LU

swmngdragn

02-25-2003, 08:43 PM

Hi, guys. :)

>Water Dragon

>Drake,
>If I remember correctly, the story says that of the generation that taught Wu I >Hui, There were five teachers. I think it says that Wu I Hui learned from 3. Do >you know if there are surviving branches from any of those 5 besides Mr. Choi's >lineage?

Essentially, Lar, what I've been able to find out is that in those days LHPF was *truly* a closed door system, and was only very grudgingly taught. The other men who were honored on the lineage tree were *very* low key about what it was they knew. If they did happen to teach someone else it was very hush-hush. You have to remember the paranoia of the times in that country, and what it did to the people in general. From the information I've been able to garner they didn't teach anyone.

>Shin
>Resident Jerk (*very* appropriate)

>Hey Drake,

>Quit obsessing over your teacher and your system, and worry about yourself.

Bite me

>looking_up

>Drake,

>Any word on the 12 animals DVD?

Nope. Choi sifu is on his own time table. It'll get done when he wants it done. Sorry. :)

Brad

02-25-2003, 08:56 PM

Do you learn Xingyi first before learning the traditional LHBF system? Is there any Bagua in the system? What's the general order of progression?

swmngdragn

02-25-2003, 09:13 PM

Hi, Brad. :)

>Do you learn Xingyi first before learning the traditional LHBF system?<

I began learning LHPF first, then the chi gung, and then Hsing-I at approximately the same time.

>Is there any Bagua in the system?<

The elements are incorporated into the form.

> What's the general order of progression?<

In what manner?

Brad

02-25-2003, 09:29 PM

> What's the general order of progression?<

In what manner?
Actually, I think I was just repeating myself, lol. What's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Basically someday, maybe in a couple of years, I'd like to move somewhere else and get out of Ohio, so I just kind of check to see what's offered in other cities. Right now, I have access to an excellent teacher of Xingyi, Bagua, & Taiji and I'm curious how well what I learned from him could translate over to LHBF if I were to end up in Chicago.

BaldMonk

02-25-2003, 10:48 PM

SwimmingDragon- I like the Terry W. quote.

Brad- Who's your teacher? Are you a Wu-Tan person?

Brad

02-25-2003, 10:57 PM

My teacher's An Tian Rong. We're not Wu-Tan :)

swmngdragn

02-25-2003, 11:56 PM

Hi, Brad. :)

>Actually, I think I was just repeating myself, lol. What's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.<

Not necessarily. What Choi sifu looks at first is your physical conditioning, and what particular art(s) you've been involved with over the years. Your mental state takes part in his decision as well.

For younger people he'll generally just say to start with Lama Pai. Then Hsing-I, or Taiji. Then Pa Qua, and finally LHPF. Some he'll just accept as is, and throw them into whatever class that they want.

It took me some time to convince Choi sifu to let me study LHPF. He wanted me in Hsing-I, or Lama at first. He finally gave in after I essentially just begged. :P

>Basically someday, maybe in a couple of years, I'd like to move somewhere else and get out of Ohio, so I just kind of check to see what's offered in other cities. Right now, I have access to an excellent teacher of Xingyi, Bagua, & Taiji and I'm curious how well what I learned from him could translate over to LHBF if I were to end up in Chicago.<

The only advice I can give you is to train hard, and pay attention to what's being said. Ask questions when you don't understand, then shut up, and train hard some more. Gung fu= Hard work. It ain't easy, but it's the ultimate narcissistic pursuit. Some, if not all, will translate to LHPF.

Shin

02-26-2003, 06:10 AM

Drake,

Face it, you gotta stop coat tailing on your master. Its only annoying and demeaning and embarrassing to your classmates.

I have never once seen you post without mentioning "WLC, the 'only grandmaster of LHPF', and how everyone else is fake. When you have seen everyone else, let me know.

In the mean time, the party line is just that.

swmngdragn

02-26-2003, 08:16 AM

Shin,

Until you can provide *any* amount of evidence to the contrary let's just agree to disagree. Jaded? Yes, I am, but I'm still willing to take into consideration that there's a *ton* of knowledge that I'm not privy to. However, until you can come up with concrete evidence to the contrary Choi sifu will be "The Man" in my mind. Internet "skirmishes" hold little interest for my these days, and I rarely post anything. If you'd like to trade information then we can do so. If not? Have a nice life.

cachao

04-17-2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Brad

Actually, I think I was just repeating myself, lol. What's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. Basically someday, maybe in a couple of years, I'd like to move somewhere else and get out of Ohio, so I just kind of check to see what's offered in other cities. Right now, I have access to an excellent teacher of Xingyi, Bagua, & Taiji and I'm curious how well what I learned from him could translate over to LHBF if I were to end up in Chicago.

Being a current student of Sifu Choi's and having studied with him for a while, I can tell you that after a certain time and experience with the internal styles there are many similarites in all of the styles you have access to, with LHBF. There are all of the same priciples in LHBF that are in the other internal styles. Sifu Choi advocates learning LHBF first because the style contains all of the other styles priciples and techniques making the other styles easy to pick up after learning LHBF. It is a very good style that is very direct in its application, but is very, very detailed. Actually all of the internal styles when learned correctly are very detailed.

As for those giving waterdragon a hard time about his loyalty to Sifu Choi I would suggest experiencing Sifu in person. He is not only a great fighter, but more importantly a great uncompromising teacher. It is because of his great skill and great ability to teach that insipres such fierce waranted loyalty.

Water Dragon

04-17-2003, 11:55 AM

Just for the record. I don't study under Mr. Choi. My school does have a solid relationship with his school though, and I have had the pleasure of meeting some of his students. I got to meet Mr. Choi once as well. I think amazing would be a good word to describe him.

Also got to see some video of Mr. Choi in action once. I think awe-struck would be a good word for that.

Vapour

04-17-2003, 03:20 PM

This site probably help.

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/

Check taijiquan classics.

Syd

12-04-2003, 05:27 AM

I am an old student of Mien Chuan (Old Yang Style small frame) Taijiquan and a new student of Liu He Ba Fa and a much more ancient unheard of closed door Taoist art which pre-dates LHBF, which shall remain nameless.

Apart from all that name dropping...*LOL* errrr I find it very difficult to hold credible any person claiming to be able to master, or even "get finished", to paraphrase, with Taijiquan, Baguzhang and Hsing I before moving on to Liu He Ba Fa like it was ticking things off a list.

Taiji, Bagua and Hsing I are not arts you ever get done with or master outright. The journey just keeps going. The idea that you can whip through each art on your way to being ready for Liu He Ba Fa is just silly nonsense. Any human being of exceptional skill is capable of being exceptional in no more than two internal arts.

And if we want to get real for five minutes I might add that multiple style hopping aint a good sign.

THIS IS NOT THE WAY!

Sorry...

Brad

12-04-2003, 06:28 AM

Taiji, Bagua and Hsing I are not arts you ever get done with or master outright. The journey just keeps going. The idea that you can whip through each art on your way to being ready for Liu He Ba Fa is just silly nonsense. Any human being of exceptional skill is capable of being exceptional in no more than two internal arts.
Why?

Syd

12-04-2003, 07:02 AM

The question proves your not ready for an answer...

Brad

12-04-2003, 08:03 AM

That's pretty much what I figured you'd say :rolleyes: If you can't give explanaitions for your coments, maybe you shouldn't make them in the first place ;)

swmngdragn

12-04-2003, 06:29 PM

Essentially, Brad..... Syd's correct in the fact that the "Three Sisters" are never mastered. It's an ongoing progression of training that, in itself, can take a life time. Now what I'd said. Syd, (at least in my own mind) :P, is that Brad should at least get his feet wet in one of the sisters before attempting LHPF. At least create some base for his own ongoing studies. As to your mysterious style.... Would that be Wun Cheun Yut Hay Geun? I've got a vcd of your teacher performing that set. Quite long, eh?

regards,
Drake

Syd

12-04-2003, 06:47 PM

Drake, ;)

Thats the very one. I agree that getting feet wet is suitable but if we were to suggest that you can master the big three before moving on to LHBF, I'd say your going to have a hard time getting through one before you take that dirt nap. :)

Brad,

If you can't give explanaitions for your coments, maybe you shouldn't make them in the first place

Sorry mate, I thought the answer was self evident, thats all. ;)

Best, Syd

Brad

12-04-2003, 08:17 PM

Sorry, a pet pieve of mine is people ... something :p Sorry, got distracted... been drinking a bit(which I usually don;t do ;) ) Anyway, no worries. I agree with you, just something about the way you said it bugged me... I forget. Anyway, I'm out a teacher for awhile so I'm mostly concentrating on Taiji and Baji basics. LHBF rocks ;) Anyone know where Nathan Menegad's LHBF comes from? I know it comes from a guy named Dr. Tao, but not it's origins. Did it branch off of Choi's LHBF(a modified version) or is it something else entirely?

swmngdragn

12-04-2003, 11:27 PM

Syd,

No worries. :) I just thought I'd get us all back on track seeing as how I, kind of, caused the riff in the first place.

Brad,

Nathan's teacher was taught by Wu Yik Fan, Choi's teacher's teacher. Unfortunately Dr. Tao was really more interested in taiji, and gave up his studies in LHPF to pursue taiji exclusively. Although his training was incomplete in LHPF he did gain some finer points that helped him in his studies of taiji. That's all I've got. :)