Only 30 years of art?

[Phenix]

Once there is a famous chinese scholar, Nan Huai-Cin said something like:

The chinese martial art even though claim to be hundreds year old art.
It actually is only about 30 years if lucky.

The logic behind his statement is that most sifu will keep something away from the student so the student will not be as good. So, its normal to take a student to be training and investigating about 30 years to figure out a big picture.... if the student is smart provided.
so when this student teachers after 30years. the art is really only 30 years because one cannot teach an art one has no experience.
and the cycle repeat for hundreds of years with 30 years of art each cycle.

On the other hand, I have heard Hai Deng the famous buddhist monk once said, Normally, after 3 generations if the art is not revise the art will be gone. His reason is that if every generation keep 30 percents of the teaching for thier own. then after two generation it is only 30 percents left. what more is there?


IMHO, i think they both have good points.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik,

If we think of WCK as a fixed, finite, and unchanging body of knowledge that was developed in the past and written in stone (as some have tried to portray it), then the art will inevitably (as we're not copy machines but human beings) erode over time. I see it differently: WCK has a few core points that are like the axioms of geometry -- once we have them (and understand them), we can use them to derive and develop everything else. So in a sense, we each recreate WCK from the ashes (axioms) of the past -- sort of like the pheonix of legend. ;) TN

Terence

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hi Phenix,

Those are interesting, if mildly disheartening, points you make.

Yes, it's true that there are teachers out there who feel the need to be a step above others, and so refrain from teaching certain fundamental concepts. However, there are sifus, senseis, and coaches out there that instruct fully, clearly, and transparently.
When students have this kind of instructor as an example, the potential for them to teach similarly is very high (the same relationship applies to the other kind of teacher and his students.)

What if the 30 years remark was due to the general assumption that the time it took to complete a teachable system left only 30 years of teaching time?

Or, what if 30 yrs was the average years a martial artist trained before passing (bear in mind what times the quote was uttered)?

Or, what if the culture changes enough every 30 years to require some arts to adopt a new teaching paradigm in order to survive, one fit for that society (not all paradigms need change; if they're sound, they can be understood through all time)?

Just some more possibilities, although I think phenix is holding the razor this time.

Xiao3 Meng4

[yuanfen]

Both are very good points Hendrik. A good student is crucial to the survival of the art... the good student must do atleast two things...
1. absorb the best that he can from his teacher- with an eye to develop a decent understanding of the puzzles from the past that he only got some hints about.

2. Besides acknowledging and honoring his teacher- he must strike out on his own path of excellence-beyond the legacy of his teacher,

true yuanfen- both ways

joy

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Both are very good points Hendrik. A good student is crucial to the survival of the art... the good student must do atleast two things...
1. absorb the best that he can from his teacher- with an eye to develop a decent understanding of the puzzles from the past that he only got some hints about.

2. Besides acknowledging and honoring his teacher- he must strike out on his own path of excellence-beyond the legacy of his teacher,

true yuanfen- both ways

These points are true, but there are lots of traps and pitfalls along the way for the unwary. Phenix's original contention that the art is 30 years old is true even if it is taught completely in each succeeding generation. I also see validity in Terence's point about the Phoenix, but in following the analogy, what we re-create is really new, just as a clone is new and not the same as the original.

Since I value very much the art of Yip Man, I am not comforted by the current state of much of Wing Chun. As the second point of Phenix's original contention made clear, over time loss of 30 percent less 30 percent less 30 percent leaves little of what we valued in the original. At the rate we're going, given the tendency of modern society to seek quick and easy solutions to long-term problems, Wing Chun may go the way of the Dodo. No doubt the MMA contingent can take heart from that message.

[Phenix]

A Different cases:

I read somewhere about a famous TaiJi master once said:

his students cannot achive a high level of skill and better then him due to the student do not belive in "taking lost" and invest in "accept continous defeat " while practicing.

The student doesn't really belive in what the teacher teach. Thus their skill can't improve after certain level.

[Phenix]

Terence,

I always thinking of a university type of education system can produce a better result to bring up new generation then "inner room" "close special student" system.

As it said, it is people who pass the Dao. People's education and thier training are important. one can get a PHD is technical training but it doesn't say much about the Education of such a person.


There are ton's of Buddhism scripture burning into CDs. But how many buddhist really understood and known what they study?

[Phenix]

Joy,

As it said, one doesnt inherit Greatness. one has to cultivate greatness. I guess we all just human so we have to go through human way.

Eventhough I always bring up this Kuen Kuit or that classical writing. I actually don't belive in living in the past or future but this instant. past will never come back. future has to many variable. and only oneself can live for oneself in this instant.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Xiao3 Meng4
Hi Phenix,

Those are interesting, if mildly disheartening, points you make.



Just some more possibilities, although I think phenix is holding the razor this time.

Xiao3 Meng4


Those are not my points but points -- thus I have heard.
and I think there are some truth in it.

Phenix never holding the razor. :D
Phenix always find away to raise from the ash....and the tears heal one from the poison of the snake.

[yuanfen]

At the rate we're going, given the tendency of modern society to seek quick and easy solutions to long-term problems, Wing Chun may go the way of the Dodo. No doubt the MMA contingent can take heart from that message.(Grendel)
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The rot is well on its way. But good wing chun will remain methinks- but rare. Yuanfen
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I always thinking of a university type of education system can produce a better result to bring up new generation then "inner room" "close special student" system. Hendrik
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Not with a deep art or a craft IMO- careful teaching by a good teacher toa good student is better than "Taking courses"..
of course fakery on being a close student is a different matter;
Joy
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As it said, it is people who pass the Dao. People's education and thier training are important. one can get a PHD is technical training but it doesn't say much about the Education of such a person.Hendrik
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The Ph D is considerably corrupted these days---honest.
Joy
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There are ton's of Buddhism scripture burning into CDs. But how many buddhist really understood and known what they study?
Hendrik
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They dont. Not without zazen, dhyan.Joy