Lap nim

[Phenix]

Lap Nim is a term introduced by Sifu Tsu.
What is Lap Nim? why is it Neccessary? and result one will get?

Care to share?

[Mckind13]

Can ou taranslate?

Lap like Lap Sau
Nim Training

???

David McKinnon

[planetwc]

Do you mean Chu Shong Tin?


Originally posted by Phenix
Lap Nim is a term introduced by Sifu Tsu.
What is Lap Nim? why is it Neccessary? and result one will get?

Care to share?

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
Lap Nim is a term introduced by Sifu Tsu.
What is Lap Nim? why is it Neccessary? and result one will get?

Care to share?

Gee, this is a tough one. You never ask anything simpler :) :)

Lop Nim, is to keep up the fine spirit (that could mean keeping the spine straight, espectially between back of the chest and top of skull), relax the shoulders, focus forward, let go of all muscle intent (especially the forearms) while doing SNT. The basics can go on and on.....

What I understand is, to tell someone to relax is not enough. You can use no muscle force while doing SNT, soft like cotton or whatever that suits your mind. The trouble is, when the opponent suddently put force on your bridge arm, it is not easy to maintain that softness. The forearm may easily become tense, the rest of the body eventually becomes rigid. All of a sudden all the basics are gone.

Lop Nim also include some other important elements
- to disregard your opponent, just do your own thing.
- to keep in mind that SNT is about cultivation, don't think too much of its application until one has mastered it.
- put aside winning and losing, that's another barrier.

To be able to relax is not an easy thing. One can talk all day about the benefit of relaxation, however, subconsciously most of us still have habbits to resist with muscle force. One's muscle intent may betray him/her, that's when the body does not listen to the mind.

We can describe Tan-Bong-Folk with circular motions, talking about efficient use of energy. However, without overcoming these muscle intent, both consciously and unconsciously, one cannot achieve these circular movements. This is why we typically spend years (I mean many many years) just to learn Tan-Bong.

To Lop Nim is not only to consciously believe in the basics, but also set our mind to train the sub-consciousness (the body) to obey our thoughts. Talking about mind and body unity.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by planetwc
Do you mean Chu Shong Tin?



Yes.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


Gee, this is a tough one. You never ask anything simpler :) :)




flying is not complex for an eagle as soon as the eagle doesn't think it is a man after staying in the cage and get feed for too long.:D


Making the first personal computer in a garage can be done, as soon as one doesn't request to have to see it to belive it.:cool:


what limit the eagle? the Man?
how can one show other's one's nim directly?
that is the question to be asked.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix

what limit the eagle? the Man?
how can one show other's one's nim directly?
that is the question to be asked.

Eagle and man may not enter or fly into places that they don't feel secure, that's just nature. The limit is in the mind.

But what makes one believe in WC and feel safe with it? Because someone fought 500 matches and never lost a single match? Or because the WC Sifu can show you how to achieve higher grounds in Martial Arts? Showing how powerfull one can be when the basics is achieved.

We are always told by Sifu that we are not courageous enough to let go of our worries and let the Nim Lik come out to look after things. May be it is our dis-belief that is pulling our legs.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


Eagle and man may not enter or fly into places that they don't feel secure, that's just nature. The limit is in the mind.




" Cast off limiting thoughts and return to emptiness. Stand in the mist of great void. This is the secret of the way of a warrior." ----Morihei Ueshiba



Is that feels like standing on top of a mountain cover with green trees,
has a wide view strecth towards the horizon of the gentle blue sky,
free to inhale the fresh cold morning air deeply,
with a body feel as light as silk which almost lavitate,
with gentle wind flaping the soft skin,
approach with warm and gentle
mind is bright, lite, joy and peace,
drifting into forgeting the existance of oneself..
but still "know" all things clearly?

oh, forget about technics?
Learn and forget. learn and forget. make the technics part of one's being. .:D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix

" Cast off limiting thoughts and return to emptiness. Stand in the mist of great void. This is the secret of the way of a warrior." ----Morihei Ueshiba

trouble is, one has to take that first step to reach out. Not easy for everyone.



oh, forget about technics?
Learn and forget. learn and forget. make the technics part of one's being. .:D

forget and learn then learn and forget :D

[Phil Redmond]

you wrote:
"Lop Nim, is to keep up the fine spirit (that could mean keeping the spine straight, espectially between back of the chest and top of skull), relax the shoulders, focus forward, let go of all muscle intent (especially the forearms) while doing SNT. The basics can go on and on....."

I agree with what you wrote.
Why then do some pratice WC with Hou Hung (sp)? Some call it Cobra back as praticed in Bak Mei or Lung Ying

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
you wrote:
I agree with what you wrote.
Why then do some pratice WC with Hou Hung (sp)? Some call it Cobra back as praticed in Bak Mei or Lung Ying

"Hum Hung" (swallow/hollow, chest) is a term broadly used by TaiChi people, yet their hollow chest does not cause cobra back. Some WC people over-do their elbow-in while doing forms, which make them look like having a cobra like back. I never took Bak Mei or Lung Ying so I cannot comment on their structure. For me keeping the upper section of the spine (from back of the chest to top of skull) straight is a good way to help relax the body and maintain good balance.

[byond1]

wck as passed down by wong wah bo to fok bo chun and leung jan as passed on in yks and koolo wc(not robert chus 40 point..he uses his own structure) use the sow hung.....it isnt as exagerated as pai mai....but it is the bowing that traditional wc inherited from weng chun white crane, imo...spine being straight is part of standing and moving chi gung training and is important for proper small and grand circulation as well as raising the shen....but bowing is the base of white crane jing and without it ,,,,it no longer is white crane......some of the wc families that keep to the older methods still use this as it was one of the things wc was based on , imo.....
brian

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Sow Hung has nothing to do with a Cobra back. If you see someone overly hunching or caving their chest in then you will know they are doing it incorrectly. Relaxing and slightly hollowing your chest is the only way to utilize Yin San (soft body) methods. It allows you to absorb power but with softness but there is a fine line between overly caved in and chest sticking out. Sticking out the chest causes your body to be to rigid and hard (it also effects your elbow positioning). Besides that it is unhealthy to stick the chest out as it causes your breath to rise and any internal martial artist will tell you this. If you read any classic in Chinese Martial Art you will see Sow Hung listed! It is not just a term broadly utilized by Tai Chi people (but probally referred to more often) as it is found in Wong Wah Bo's teaching. Both Leung Jan (in Koo Lo) and Yuen Kay San preserve the Sow Hung teaching. Lok Bot, Sow Hung, Chum/Mai Jarn!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

I think one of the biggest problems in MA is seeing one element of the dynamic and mistaking it for the static. There are many body methods in Southern martial arts, several of which are employed within WCK (since it did not develop from a dream in a vacuume). Sow Hung is one of them. However, Sow Hung, or any method in an of itself is nothing. The art isn't in the poses, the chest hollow with the tan sao extended. That's nothing; easy to destroy. The art is in the movement and the transition. Movement is expansion and contraction, that is the core of basic power (neglecting rotation and other more complex ideas introduced later).

If you power yourself with the local muscle of the arm, you can stay in Sow Hung or avoid it completely and probably wonder why people even mention it. If you see power as part of a body mechanic, however, Sow Hung, its transitions, its extremes, its opposites all make sense.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Rene,


Totally agree with you. Nothing is static. I was just discussing basic elements and they are all situational. Nothing is a pose so to say. The body is fluid and adjustable. Open, close, sink, raise, press, coil and combine.


See ya,

[Phenix]

without Hum Hung and relax the abdoment, each breath will not sink to dantien naturally. one couldn't even attain a healing purpose.

at absorving in coming power hum hung and curving the spine accodingly, suck the power in to open the body bow to build the potential...the qi stick to the back..... then release.

Inhale, exhale....... what is holding there static and extrem?


With forcing Hum Hung and staticly standing there just to imitate the outer shape .... everything stuck at the chest.....

IMHO.

[byond1]

hi guys,

rene, jim, and hendrik all added great info....
i think this post begins to touch on and reflect that there are some very specific criteria that makes(made) wing chun--wing chun....when we deviate from this criteria__are we still doing wck? or are we doing jkd? or M.M.A?


hendrik---what is the differance between sow hung and hum hung??

[Phenix]

Originally posted by byond1

hendrik---what is the differance between sow hung and hum hung??

I am not familiar with term sow hung.

[t_niehoff]

Rene, excellent post.

-----------------------

Phenix writes:

without Hum Hung and relax the abdoment, each breath will not sink to dantien naturally. one couldn't even attain a healing purpose. P

As I see it, hum hung/sow hung is not a posture or shape but rather, among other things, the moving of the breath from the chest to the abdomen (hence, we empty the chest). One telling factor that I use in judging good WCK is where a person breathes -- when I see the upper chest rising and falling (indicating they are breathing from the chest) I know they are using either localized muscle or muscular exertion -- and that they don't have the mechanics of WCK. TN

-------------------

byond1 wrote:

I think this post begins to touch on and reflect that there are some very specific criteria that makes(made) wing chun--wing chun....when we deviate from this criteria__are we still doing wck? or are we doing jkd? or M.M.A? B1

As I see it, if we are using the tools of WCK (what I believe is the core of WCK), then we are practicing WCK. The particular, specific mechanics of WCK -- as this topic touches -- opens the potential of the WCK tools; someone can, for example, successfully use WCK with localized muscle or 'nonWCK' mechanics or just some of WCK mechanics but in each case these will ultimately limit the potential of the tools. TN

Terence

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

I think several people hit the topic of the hollowing of the chest well. I have heard it called Hueng Moon or something similar. It is incorrect to do it that way from what I was taught. And this is comming from a line that is familiar with Pak Mei and Dragon Style, which utilizes this concept.

I think the reason you see so many people doing it is because they are focusing on bringing in the elbows. In order to do that, people bring the shoulders forward. Others arch the back a bit. This, in my experience is incorrect. Perhaps some lineages do a form of this as noted by Jim, but I think you will still see a big difference between what they do and what Leung Ying or Pak Mei does.

And Terence hit one out of the park as well. The breathing is very important as the chest should not be the focal point. The breathing should be a bit deeper, as I understand it. When the chest rises and falls, the structure is not there. Most can deal with this while stationary, but when they step, the chest has a tendency to rise for many. I have this problem and I try to work on it.

Just some thoughts
Tom
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[Phenix]

Know how to deal with the mind's flow....inhale, exhale, spine, root.... all are dynamic stuffs.... until then one doesn't really comprehend SLT..... Thus as I have heard.