Wing Chun Power

[iron thread]

Where does it come from? hip/waist, whole body, arms, legs?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by iron thread
Where does it come from? hip/waist, whole body, arms, legs?
Yes, and from the proper understanding of how they apply to your properly aligned structure.

[Mckind13]

I agree.

Not only the use of whole body but the proper use (right time and correct mechanics).

David McKinnon

[Phenix]

Originally posted by iron thread
Where does it come from? hip/waist, whole body, arms, legs?




what is faster then the speed of light?
what is the creator of a dynamic structure?
what can align the force vectors of the physical body?

Mind.

Then the rest is details details and details which has to be sort out and polished.


It is not difficult to see the flapping wings. But how many "see" the wing under the wings. ;)

[t_niehoff]

A few things:

-As I see it, there is no dichotomy between the mental and the physical aspects of WCK: they are two sides of the same coin. Any intentional physical activity is produced and guided by our mental processes; these mental processes are refined and developed by our physical activities. TN

-Saying WCK power comes from body structure or using the whole body basically says nothing . . . this is true for boxing, muay thai, karate, etc. WCK IME has *specific mechanics* -- which best work with the tools and tactics/strategies of WCK -- that generate and receive (again two sides of the same coin) force or power. As I understand it, at the very core of WCK power is YJKYM (some folks think it is a "stance" but IME it is really teaching specific body mechanics, as do all the horses) -- can you generate and receive great, or at least significant, power in YJKYM without using muscular exertion (feeling strain or tension in your arms or shoulders)? Test your punch from YJKYM; test receiving force in YJKYM. IME the better one's skill (it's a simple test to get a good idea of someone's level), the better able they can generate and receive power from YJKYM. If you can't generate or receive much power, then you need to find someone that can to teach you how; this is the only way to learn. TN

Terence

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Mckind13
Not only the use of whole body but the proper use (right time and correct mechanics).

David, what do you mean by mechanics? Is that the dynamic use of structure?

Iron Thread, what did you mean by power? Striking force? Or, something else?

Regards,

[PaulH]

There are two interesting powers that I learned from the past Gary Lam Sifu's seminar: 1. Hate power and 2. Crazy power. The first one will promote explosive power. If you hate someone really bad, there is much to be said about its mental destructive force unleashed on the victim. The second one is like what you would do if someone suddenly stab your back or leg with a sharp pin. Now if you can tap into their power all the time...

Regards,

[fa_jing]

IMO for punching power, the key is turning/moving the hips and shoulders as one unit. That's why we practice sitting horse stance punching with shifting so much. In practice, this leads to hitting with the weight of the whole body behind it. I think in wing chun the shoulder will not torque ****her than the hip by more than an inch or two, max. This is different than other style's power generation such as western boxing on Northern Shaolin, which continue to torque the shoulders past the "base" of the hips, engaging more waist power. What you give up with this approach IMO is structural stability and integrity, as well as mobility as it is difficult to step from such a postion. The momentum of your whole body moving as one unit is affected. But the advantage to the other approach is greater reach, more potential for power as more waist drive is added to the punch. Personally, I like Wing Chun's hitting method, plenty of functional power there and that's the way I'll continue to practice. I can't exhibit the other kind of power generation for crap as I do not practice it, it feels quite awkward to me after working so hard to develop power the Wing Chun way.

[t_niehoff]

fa_jing writes:

IMO for punching power, the key is turning/moving the hips and shoulders as one unit. F

IMO "torque" or shifting is not WCK's fundamental power (there is no torque in YJKYM; and doesn't it make sense that the first form would contain the fundamental means of power generation of WCK?). We must first develop *stationary* power because WCK specializes in in-fighting; when you are very close (where we want to be, and not with an outstretched arm like we see all the time) and in contact, you can't often step and if you attempt to torque/shift you are giving your opponent an opening to "escort" your center (of gravity). TN

Personally, I like Wing Chun's hitting method, plenty of functional power there and that's the way I'll continue to practice. I can't exhibit the other kind of power generation for crap as I do not practice it, it feels quite awkward to me after working so hard to develop power the Wing Chun way. F

From my perspective, what you describe is not WCK's fundamental "hitting method" or "power the WCK way." The jik chung choi from YJKYM describes "WCK's hitting method" and generating power "the WCK way." The turning punch IMO has different mechanics than you describe and, in fact, builds on - or is an extension of - the fundamental, stationary power. TN

Terence

[Savi]

Terence,
I have not followed this thread, but your last post brings a question to my mind. How exactly do you use your Yi Ji Kim Yeung Mah when applying your Wing Chun?

Specifically,
1) Do you have your feet pointed in or elsewhere?
2) How far a part do you keep your heels?
3) Could you tell me why for #1 and #2?

Thanks in advance,
-Savi.

[fa_jing]

Hi T_N, thanks for responding to my post. I would like to differ but not for the sake of arguing LOL.

IMO "torque" or shifting is not WCK's fundamental power (there is no torque in YJKYM; and doesn't it make sense that the first form would contain the fundamental means of power generation of WCK?).


What's the first thing you are taught, stance shifting w/punches or the form? I believe these are both begun the day you begin WC study, along with chain punches. Stationary power is the most fundamental, and I would say consists of keeping your elbow down and a root to the floor, being relaxed, etc. The torquing power is fundamental too IMO, and if you look at the potential for generating torque from YJKYM it is there. Of course the opening punches in Chum Kiu exhibit torquing power as well. I believe that you should have some torquing power when you hit but, even more importantly linear moving power with your whole body. Again, even when you are using minimal torquing power, the linking of the hips and shoulders that you learn while practicing stance shifting w/punches will help your linear moving
power. As will all the stepping w/punching drills you may do, but the Chor ma turning punches drill is the most effective drill you can do for this w/out equipment IMO.



The turning punch IMO has different mechanics than you describe Please elaborate? Do you mean that the hips and shoulders do not turn as one unit?

[S.Teebas]

Hey Iron thread,

There's a good article at this site called 'Wing Chun Power'. Click the below link, then click articles button, then choose the number 2 article.

http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/

[Mckind13]

JW Wrote

David, what do you mean by mechanics? Is that the dynamic use of structure?

Since this thread is on the topic of power my answer is no!

Structure has allot to do with mechanics and the ability to apply it dynamically and properly. And while the same physical pathways would be used (same physical structure) I am not using structure (i.e. the structure we often talk about with regards to structure testing) in the same manner when I am solely issuing force.
To rephrase, to issue force requires that the correct physical pathways are aligned properly so that my intention can flow smoothly and powerfully from me to my opponent. Using structure requires that these same or similar pathways are aligned, but also that they are used in a way to receive respond to force fed into my physical structure.

When I am both striking and receiving pressure I am using alignment with verying degrees of structure applied to various parts of my body.

David McKinnon

[t_niehoff]

Hi Savi,

Savi wrote:

I have not followed this thread, but your last post brings a question to my mind. How exactly do you use your Yi Ji Kim Yeung Mah when applying your Wing Chun?

Specifically,
1) Do you have your feet pointed in or elsewhere?
2) How far a part do you keep your heels?
3) Could you tell me why for #1 and #2?
----------------

As I see it YJKYM is a specific sort of body mechanics, not a certain way of standing or a pose (the guidelines for YJKYM help us find those mechanics for ourselves). As such, the feet will move (as the opening of the horse demonstrates) and the width of the legs/heels will vary depending on what we're doing (you can even do YJKYM standing on one leg -- as we do with the one-legged SNT). Nothing is fixed. TN

++++++++++++++++


fa_jing writes:

Stationary power is the most fundamental, and I would say consists of keeping your elbow down and a root to the floor, being relaxed, etc. F

There is much more to it IMO. Consider this analogy (to get the idea of what I'm talking about): when you learn to play tennis, your taught to hit the ball - forehand and backhand - from a stationary position. The idea isn't to use the arm to hit the ball or torgue to hit the ball, but to hit with your weight by moving your weight (center) forward as a pulse into the ball at the proper time and at the proper distance, etc. while remaining in balance, relaxed, etc. You practice it (in tennis) stationary since it eliminates other variables and permits you to focus most clearly on getting that shift of weight, and then making it smaller and more powerful. Of course, there is no forehand hitting stance or backhand hitting stance in tennis -- if you see good players hit the ball they do it moving (running), moving backward, even jumping but rarely stationary (although they can) -- but they always use the same mechanics learned from that stationary practice. It is *somewhat* similar in WCK IMO: the YJKYM teaches (or should teach IMO) how to use our center with very little movement to put our whole body into our punch. And just like in tennis, we can test/measure how well we are doing that by how hard we can hit. TN

Of course the opening punches in Chum Kiu exhibit torquing power as well. I believe that you should have some torquing power when you hit but, even more importantly linear moving power with your whole body. Again, even when you are using minimal torquing power, the linking of the hips and shoulders that you learn while practicing stance shifting w/punches will help your linear moving
power. As will all the stepping w/punching drills you may do, but the Chor ma turning punches drill is the most effective drill you can do for this w/out equipment IMO. F

Sum Nung wore grooves into stone tiles practicing shifting. If it were simply turning our body as a unit to generate torque, it wouldn't take that much practice. ;) He's doing something else, something that requires a great deal of practice to develop. I agree that shifting/torque is one way of generating power, but it is an extension of what I describe above; IME the problem with not developing the mechanics of YJKYM is that our shift then misses an important ingredient and becomes merely "turning on top of the ground" with our body-weight -- and you become easy to manipulate (as a boxer is). TN

Please elaborate? Do you mean that the hips and shoulders do not turn as one unit? F

The problem with looking at 'how things look' is that we miss a lot. Two YJKYMs can 'look' the same, but one person can generate enormous power and the other can't -- because there is something different going on inside. Good WCK isn't the product of 'how it looks' as it is the *inner game*; and when someone has that "inner game" they can look terrible and still be effective. Here's a simple test for your shift: have a partner stand facing you squarely and grab you by your upper arms; now you shift; as you do, your partner tries to unbalance you by pushing/pulling on your upper arms. What you can learn from this drill (a drill is a test) someone can't tell you how to do -- you need to feel it (as it is mechanics). As I see it, a good teacher doesn't tell you how to do something (they can't) but helps you to find it for yourself (this is why one needs to be taught individually and why fixed curriculums - i.e., lineages - aren't important). TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Terence,

Excellent set of posts!

[Phenix]

As such, the feet will move (as the opening of the horse demonstrates) and the width of the legs/heels will vary depending on what we're doing (you can even do YJKYM standing on one leg -- as we do with the one-legged SNT). Nothing is fixed. TN


One's mind doesn't stay the same every instant, keep flowing.
how then can one's stance stay rigidly identical at every moment?
Mind moves, body will moves... that is just natural.

how can we fixed a shape of water and called that the Original shape and force others to take that as the Original shape?

That is against nature....... IMHO

[fa_jing]

"If it were simply turning our body as a unit to generate torque, it wouldn't take that much practice. "

My point was that it is NOT only to develop torque, for if it was we would use more of a whipping motion like a tennis player or baseball swing or Boxer's power shot. My point was that this teaches you to hit as a unit, with your whole body. Bagwork is also very good in this regard, if you concentrate on the stepping.

I did find your posts informative.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by fa_jing

if it was we would use more of a whipping motion like a tennis player or baseball swing or Boxer's power shot. My point was that this teaches you to hit as a unit, with your whole body.

this type of Jing is too slow IMHO...

[t_niehoff]

Hi fa_jing,

fa_jing writes:

My point was that this teaches you to hit as a unit, with your whole body. Bagwork is also very good in this regard, if you concentrate on the stepping. F

My point is that every MA emphasizes (or gives lip service to) using the whole body as a unit (so saying that is meaningless -- there needs to be more specificity); good WCK involves using our whole body 'the WCK way.' And the basis for that is YJKYM which teaches us certain, specific body mechanics that permits, among other things, the *instant* generation of a whole-body, stationary power that can be exerted in any direction and that doesn't depend on, and is in fact inhibited by, muscular exertion. TN

If you're talking about the heavy bag, I find it useless w/r/t WCK punching. I'm not very good nor that big (average height/build) but when I hit the heavy bag it flies horizontal to the ground (so I can never get a second punch, unless I want to keep it in the air) -- and I'm not unique (I've seen more than a few others do the same). WCK uses a wall bag for a reason. ;) TN

I did find your posts informative. F

Thanks. I think you'll find those drills/tests even more informative. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Martial arts can sound very similar. Judo talks about using the whole body. They also talk about maximum efficiency through minimum effort. Their goal (especially in modern sport judo) and implementation differ, however.

WCK can use the whole body, or just part of it, in accordance to its own underlying methodology.

So, while a robin is a bird, not all birds are robins.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Hi fa_jing,

[...] good WCK involves using our whole body 'the WCK way.' And the basis for that is YJKYM which teaches us certain, specific body mechanics that permits, among other things, the *instant* generation of a whole-body, stationary power that can be exerted in any direction and that doesn't depend on, and is in fact inhibited by, muscular exertion. TN



But usually when we practice stationary punching drills (3-arrow, chain punching) we do so from the square stance, not YGKYM. In the wing chun I was taught. Your lineage may do differently.


If you're talking about the heavy bag, I find it useless w/r/t WCK punching. I'm not very good nor that big (average height/build) but when I hit the heavy bag it flies horizontal to the ground (so I can never get a second punch, unless I want to keep it in the air) -- and I'm not unique (I've seen more than a few others do the same). WCK uses a wall bag for a reason. ;) TN


My understanding is that if you hit the bag correctly and tranfer the energy into the bag, it will fold, not fly upward. Usually when it moves more than a few inches, it means your mechanics are wrong and you are pushing. You ever see the tape of Foreman hitting the heavy bag before the Rumble in the Jungle fight? There was pratically a hole in the bag but it wasn't moving much. Also, usually when someone talks about making the bag fly up it is with a sidekick or other kick, and it is due to a push which follows the main impact. Unless your bag is made of some kind of rubbery material it will not bounce off enough to send it horizontal by any means.

[TjD]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

IMO "torque" or shifting is not WCK's fundamental power (there is no torque in YJKYM; and doesn't it make sense that the first form would contain the fundamental means of power generation of WCK?). We must first develop *stationary* power because WCK specializes in in-fighting; when you are very close (where we want to be, and not with an outstretched arm like we see all the time) and in contact, you can't often step and if you attempt to torque/shift you are giving your opponent an opening to "escort" your center (of gravity). TN



while "torque" isn't WCK's fundamental power, the fundamental power drives the torque. i think a big part of YGKYM is what's done with the hips. you keep them forward. when you're in a side stance, or a straight stance and the hips are back, pressing them forward into YGKYM can move the entire body forward, which generates a lot of power - especially because the motion is so small and can be done extremely quickly, if SLT is practiced well.

for torquing, one hip goes forward, the other goes back. the pressing of the legs together makes the motion almost like a snap of the fingers. when the strike hits, the structure goes through the leg with the hip forward. this is where it should go because a leg in the YGKYM can recieve as much energy as your bones can handle before breaking.

as to shifting giving your opponent the center, i think this statement is far off. a shift moves the centerline such that your opponent is no longer inside it, so now you own the center.

[t_niehoff]

TjD writes:

while "torque" isn't WCK's fundamental power, the fundamental power drives the torque. TjD

That's true. I think that was my point. :) TN

as to shifting giving your opponent the center, i think this statement is far off. a shift moves the centerline such that your opponent is no longer inside it, so now you own the center. TjD

Anytime we move our body (center/weight), an opponent (if there is contact) can "escort" that movement and control our center -- and if he controls our center, he controls the centerline regardless of position. TN
------------------------

fa_jing writes:

My understanding is that if you hit the bag correctly and tranfer the energy into the bag, it will fold, not fly upward. Usually when it moves more than a few inches, it means your mechanics are wrong and you are pushing. F

Hit the bag with a truck and see if it doesn't fly upwards. ;) (It goes upward since the chain stops it from flying away when hit with force).The chinese had bags; other TCMAs use them. There is a reason our ancestors in WCK didn't use them and chose the wallbag instead. BTW, I agree with you that we punch, not push. TN

Terence

[fa_jing]

Hi Terence. Are you saying that Wing Chun punching is more powerful than other TCMA styles? I don't currently think so. I give it high marks for enabling you to throw a powerful and functional punch that actually lands and is effective in the context of the fight, but as far as stepping up to a bag and hitting it I don't see why WCK would have any advantage over Taiji, Xing Yi, or most other martial arts. I'm sure your point about the wallbag is valid, however - that it is specifically tailored to the type of power that one should develop in WCK.

[Phenix]

all about power hitting the bag is great. however, what happen when i am 80 year old or when i am sick. how to generate power?

[Wingman]

Anytime we move our body (center/weight), an opponent (if there is contact) can "escort" that movement and control our center -- and if he controls our center, he controls the centerline regardless of position. TN

Hi Terence,

I agree with your statement above. My questions are:

1. If your opponent controls the mutual centerline, do you shift/move your body (center/weight), and create another mutual centerline?

2. If you opt to shift/move your body (center/weight), how can you prevent your opponent from "escorting" your movement?

I'm looking forward to your answer. I've been following this thread, and so far, the discussion has been very informative.:)

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by fa_jing


My understanding is that if you hit the bag correctly and tranfer the energy into the bag, it will fold, not fly upward. Usually when it moves more than a few inches, it means your mechanics are wrong and you are pushing. You ever see the tape of Foreman hitting the heavy bag before the Rumble in the Jungle fight? There was pratically a hole in the bag but it wasn't moving much. Also, usually when someone talks about making the bag fly up it is with a sidekick or other kick, and it is due to a push which follows the main impact. Unless your bag is made of some kind of rubbery material it will not bounce off enough to send it horizontal by any means.


Yes, that is correct. If you run up to the bag and push it, it will fly off. Hence if the same is happening with your punches, then something is wrong with your punching action. The punch should have penetrating power that targets the small area of impact and bores into it. The reason Wing Chun did not traditionally use a boxing bag is becasue they did not exist in mainland China in the same form. But if you read accounts of Wing Chun practitioners on the wallbag, often after many months of practice there would be holes in the wall behind the wallbag, again due to penetrating power that goes through the target.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Hendrik,

Phenix writes:

all about power hitting the bag is great. however, what happen when i am 80 year old or when i am sick. how to generate power? P

IMO, if our power comes from muscular exertion or waist twisting it will natuarally decline with age; if we use WCK mechanics, age will not matter IMO (as our ancestors have demonstrated). One of the problems is that since muscular power is so prevalent in WCK (because it is easy, among other things), folks think our power and our punch is the same as boxings or karate (that they should have the same effect, for instance). The WCK punch is different in kind, IMHO, than boxings or karates or whatever art; the power is different; the effect is different, etc. TN

--------------------------------

Hi Wingman,

Wingman writes:

My questions:

1. If your opponent controls the mutual centerline, do you shift/move your body (center/weight), and create another mutual centerline? W

The trouble with answering your questions is that everything depends upon the conditions (range, are we linked or merely in contact, what my opponent is doing, etc.). Typically I follow the kuen kuet: lui lao hoi soong lut sao jik chung (*stay* as he comes, escort as he goes, rush in on loss of contact) -- which recognizes that any movement creates opportunites for an opponent. Thus, small movement is better than big movement, and no movement better than slight movement (WCK "uses stillness to overcome movement"). So if conditions allow, I would break the centerline (there are many methods for this) to regain control as my first option. If that wasn't possible, I would change the line as you mention, but with the smallest movement possible (maybe one degree) movement to create the smallest opportunity. BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent. Once in contact, I turn only to break the opponent's body structure. Make sense? TN

2. If you opt to shift/move your body (center/weight), how can you prevent your opponent from "escorting" your movement?

Again, if the conditions don't allow me to shift (for example we're close and our centers are linked) I can't shift without creating that opportunity; but I can minimize it. However, this assumes that your opponent has sensitivity and skill (that may not be the case), and if he doesn't you'll be able to get away with it. Our application depends on judgment. TN

Terence

[Wingman]

Terence writes:


BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent.

Great idea! Why haven't I thought of that before?:)

Generally, I agree with your answers. This is also what I had in mind when I posted on this thread WC gives up their center? (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=20277) . Thank you for giving such a detailed answer.

[reneritchie]

BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent.

I do both, as the situation dictates. If I can get control and break my opponent's structure, it's easy to turn them (among other things). If I'm not able to get that control but still need to change the line, I'll turn myself, and use the (hopefully) more advantageous position to gain control, break the structure, etc.

BTW - I was report on Rorion Gracie's inaugural IGJJF tournament. There's a debate as to whether or not tournaments should allow slamming from the guard (picking the guy up who's in guard, lifting him, and slamming him back down). Most ban the slam as it has led to injuries in the past (back/neck). Judo goes half-way by saying if you lift the opponent it shows you could slam, so they break you up and restart you standing. IGJJF allows it since they maintain its important to know how to break down an opponent's posture (structure) so that they cannot slam you, before you put yourself in a position to get slammed (and they'll let you learn this the hard way). This resonated in a WCK sense to me, since often I think, people will go for the touch (the hit they lust after), even if its speed or trick based, and not bother to properly control and break an opponent first. Sorry, droning on, just food for thought...

[iron thread]

Nice information, thanks guys. Feel free to continue posting.

[t_niehoff]

Hi RR, wingman,

BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent. TN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RR writes:

I do both, as the situation dictates. If I can get control and break my opponent's structure, it's easy to turn them (among other things). If I'm not able to get that control but still need to change the line, I'll turn myself, and use the (hopefully) more advantageous position to gain control, break the structure, etc. RR

I was stating my ideal. As I said, it all depends on the moment (conditions); sometimes we can get away with shifting (ourselves) especially if we miminize our movement, haven't linked centers, etc. Everything has strengths and weaknesses -- the rub is recognizing those conditions where we can maximize its strengths and minimize its weaknesses. TN

This resonated in a WCK sense to me, since often I think, people will go for the touch (the hit they lust after), even if its speed or trick based, and not bother to properly control and break an opponent first. Sorry, droning on, just food for thought... RR

That's because many folks in WCK use a "kickboxing" mindset (hit the other guy and try not to get hit) and have no idea of the WCK mindset (join, control, finish). TN

------------

wingman writes:

Great idea! Why haven't I thought of that before? W

LOL! Sorry, I was making no assumption about you personally . . . it's just that so many just think of turning themselves rather than the opponent. Similarly, I don't for the most part use turning as a "dodge" or "evasion", and instead shift into an opponent rather than away from an opponent. TN

Terence

[Phenix]

I still didn't see how the power of WCK comes from.

[byond1]

....o.k i will bite!!!!
my wc will be.......wing chun nim kuen fatt

[ZIM]

I still didn't see how the power of WCK comes from.

true of any art thats worth your time. (http://www.beautifulcode.nl/timestar/)