Chi only exists if you believe in it.

[Oso]

Talk amongst yourselves.


:D

[Laughing Cow]

God only exists if you believe in he/she/it.
:D

Do I need to believe in oxygen to breath?
No.

Same with "Chi", it is there if you believe in it or not.

[Oso]

:D

[dezhen2001]

dont feed the TROLL :D:D:D

dawood

[Oso]

i know pretty weak but you gotta start somewhere.

[Laughing Cow]

Dawood.

That is all he gets from me.

Let him starve to DEATH.

:D :D

[dezhen2001]

u must be real bored man!

as for me - work is now done YAY! :D (but i will still get back on here once im home... :()

dawood

[Ming Yue]

here you go, Oso.... (http://www.curious3d.com/bucket2.jpg)

:rolleyes: :D

[Oso]

mwaahaahaa haa ahaa chgu bfrui chki chu cugh

[Oso]

actually, I've been told by several folks that the two most
important things you need for chi cultivation are imagination
and visualization.

or you could go the Carlos Castenada way and just get high
all the time.

but that's cheating. seriously.

people that get high to 'expand' their senses are cop out
pussies (small cats) that haven't got the guts to work hard
enough to get there without the 'mind expanding' drugs.

you still got to believe. so, NO TROLL.

ha-HA !

don't you feel double suckered now?!?

HA-ha.

echgflemuchg

[Oso]

huh, I thought pussies would be all ******* out.

now, it just looks kinda stupid with the (small cats) thing.

[morbicid]

LOL at u guys


anyways i think chi exists - although there's usually a scientific theory that can explain all the strange phenomana (spelling?) that occurr.
whatever u are comfortable with believing

sceientific studies have proven that the body is capable of great feats if the mind is fully convicted in believing it can do something (whether that person truly believes in chi, is on drugs, or is just plain insane)
of coarse there are factors such as hormones, adrenaline, etc that are attributing to this unusual physical exertion. but like i said, whatever suits u (just for example: the old story of a woman lifting a car to save a child- i'm not saying this is a fact)

so i suppose it doesnt matter if chi truly exists, as long as believing in its existence continues affecting people's performance and pushing them to new limits. if merely the strong belief in chi can dramatically affect physical performance than it may as well exist , for all intents and purposes

[Oso]

HOLY SHIITE!

Bravo !


but, as you have said...


you gotta believe....

[joedoe]

I don't believe in George Bush, but he exists :D

[Oso]

prove it.

[joedoe]

You saying that you need proof that your own President exists?

[Oso]

I see a man running his mouth. But not a PRESIDENT.

[Chang Style Novice]

If by qi you mean breath, I don't think anyone here doesn't believe in it.

If by qi you mean animating energy, I don't think anyone here doesn't believe in it.

If by qi you mean that through practice one can direct his or her breath and/or animating energy into a more powerful expression of martial technique, you may have some dissenters. Most of these dissenters will say that good body mechanics and careful timing is responsible for the more powerful expression of martial technique, and it is debatable whether or not that is actually a function of breath or especially animating energy

If by qi you mean that through practice one can direct his or her breath and/or animating energy into ghostly fireballs/empty force that can knock down a resisting opponent without going to the trouble of actually making contact, you're full of crap.

Definitions, please.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Oso
I see a man running his mouth. But not a PRESIDENT.

Hear hear :D

Still doesn't answer the question - you don't think he exists?

[Oso]

nope.

never seen him in person. just an image on a tv screen.
not proof enough for me.

[morbicid]

I can shoot balls of chi and for only $19.99, you can too!

[Oso]

ummm, CSN, how high are you right now?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Oso
nope.

never seen him in person. just an image on a tv screen.
not proof enough for me.

Fair enough - so we are being led into war by an illusion? :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Not in the least. I haven't smoked any since...um, Halloween, I think.

[Oso]

CSN, ok, but I was intentionally being silly with this.

IF it were a serious thread than we would need to define
what we were talking about.


joedoe, I'm not being led, dragged mostly, like the rest of us.
I am not against bagging the ******* but I do believe we need
more time to let the rest of the world agree.

[Chang Style Novice]

My mistake, then. I thought it seemed a worthy topic of discussion.

I made a similar error when I started my "undisputed truths" thread.

[morbicid]

dont whine and moan... it's not becoming of u :)

[joedoe]

No, that whining and moaning is not coming from CSN - it is coming from your mother :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso
mwaahaahaa haa ahaa chgu bfrui chki chu cugh

That reminds me of wheelie and the chopper bunch

[Mr Punch]

I only exist as a reflection of all of you and everyone I meet.

I am the only true gestalt based on a democracy of intuition.

Therefore chi only exists if you believe in it... I have no beliefs.













I especially don't believe that there are topics worthy of discussion! :D :D :D

[Laughing Cow]

In TJQ we say the mind should be on the spirit not the QI; otherwise the Qi will become stagnant.

By relaxing the entire external Body we allow Qi & Blood to flow smoothly and naturallly to the entire Body and thus open all the channels.

Lifting the internal spirit can activate the essential substances such as blood & Qi.

Internal Spirit, essential substances & Qi can be melted into the internal energy of TJQ.

[Mr Punch]

Laughing Cow, don't tell us, you haven't smoked since Halloween either :D !

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Mat
Laughing Cow, don't tell us, you haven't smoked since Halloween either :D !

Yep, halloween was only last night.
:D ;)

[Oso]

csn, the first, 2nd & 3rd parts of your initial questions would be
good to discuss but probably OT for this forum. However, my
initial statement still stands in that I feel you must believe in it
before it will manifest for you and only when it manifests for you
will it exist for you.

I believe in chi and therefore it exists for me.

I have only witnessed one dimensional representations of a
sumulacrum identified as G.W. Bush.

I believe in those ODR's.

I can't believe in G.W. Bush as the President of the US.

seven, you're showing ur age buddy. It was only my impression
of a troll going down in flames.

[Internal Boxer]

If the warm sensations are chi or not who gives a flying fu.ck as long as you are able to manifest internal power surely that is what counts.

[Former castleva]

In a way,I´m along the same lines with internal boxer.

At first,I was going to write another post on this but I have done that already...probably unnecessary.

[Oso]

wow, all this commentary from a troll. A very obvious one at that.

amazing, no wonder people get hooked on trolling.;)

I don't even know what to say.

CHI exists for me, I hope it exists for you.:)

[KC Elbows]

Yes trolling is addictive.

I go for the body mechanics version of chi, but I think it actually ties in to a lot of things: maintaining posture in the most relaxed way possible, producing energy in the most relaxed way possible. Sometimes, when I hear people say someone has good chi, I usually think that they don't necessarily have extraordinary energy/power over others, but that their power is not working against itself, but freely expressed.

If you find these ideas revolutionairy, you may call me...Chi Gueverra!:p :D

[Oso]

dang it !!!! will you people please stop with the serious level
headed commentary on chi !?!?!?!?

This is my first attempt at trolling. Have a little respect.


:)

[red5angel]

I just started reading this thread but now its on brother!!!!


"people that get high to 'expand' their senses are cop out
pussies (small cats) that haven't got the guts to work hard
enough to get there without the 'mind expanding' drugs"


I have debated this once before with someone on this thread and I dont buy this line of thinking. Typically such a statement is made by one who is in strong opposition to drugs for whatever reason. However, My fathers people, and other tribes around the world have used various "drugs" to reach what they considered altered states off conciousness. Often these substances aren't abused as they are in todays modern society and my own very limited drug experience has shown me that there is more out there if you want to explore it.

Expanding ones sense can be done in several ways. I used to run and while never having personally experienced the runners high, many of my freinds often talked about it. Some find it through meditation or deep thought still others find it through the use of mind altering substances.



As for Chi, I think superior body control and mechanics can make you appear to be able to do things that seem 'magical', however I think these things are well within the bounds of the understandable and explainable. One who could say, take a small bearing into his nose and then produce from his eye would seem to be doing a magic trick when it turn sout he has established control over a part of his body where others have not.

[Oso]

red5, first off, absolutely no offense intended towards any culture.
I hope you have enough of a take on me to believe that.

and, yes, I am aposed to drug use.

I have a bad taste towards recreational drug use due to where
I live and the preponderance of hardcore hippies and their basic
outllook on life. my comment soley had that group in mind.

I believe there are things out there if you want them.
They are accesible w/o any drug use.
It just takes a lot of time and effort to get there.
I feel it's cheating to just take a drug and not work at it.
The rewards are too great not to have to pay for them
with blood sweat and tears.
Runner's high is great, I think I hit it once. I worked to
achieve it by running up and down a bunch of hills.

Here's an analogy. You are aware that I mountain bike.
Most mountain bikers don't like to climb the hills so they can
ride back down them at high speeds and get the adrenaline rush.
I feel that they are weenies because they aren't willing to pay
for the downhill with the grueling uphill crank.

TANSTAAFL: There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

but as always this is just my take

oh, and just in case you just reverse trolled me:p :)

[red5angel]

Oso, no problem, although sometimes words like that can sting because of the way some societies view the use of substances like drugs.
I think the problem is abuse, and I think that is the prevalant use for mind altering substances in this day and age. Take tobacco for instance. At one point it was held as sacred, not to be taken lightly, now people are killing themselves for it. however I don't think that it is cheating. anyone who says they can reach the same state of mind or 'being' that one who has taken a drug, but without the drugs, has probably never taken a drug.

not a reverse troll, just another one o fthose issues I think is misunderstood having grown up in the cultures most of us do.

[Oso]

ok, cool.


however I don't think that it is cheating. anyone who says they can reach the same state of mind or 'being' that one who has taken a drug, but without the drugs, has probably never taken a drug.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. but, that's ok
in my book.





btw, I'm surprised not to have seen your presence on LC's
gun control thread.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso

seven, you're showing ur age buddy. It was only my impression
of a troll going down in flames.

Nah man, I dunno what that show is, actually. Honest! I just found some sites about it on the internet... yeah, that's it...

[StarBoy]

A lot of the response I've read have said something similar to "chi exists if you believe in it". I don't think that is necessarily true. With this line of thought, you could believe in anything and it would exist. For all you know, chi could just be some psycho-somatic warm funny feeling. Chi could be like the Tooth Fairy. Lots of kids believe that when they lose a tooth, some fairy comes and gives you money for it. But it's really only your parents. Granted, it was a juvenile example, but it only goes to prove that belief doesn't equate to existence.

Another good example would be the (Ancient) Greeks or Romans. I won't get into details about their religions, I'm sure everyone knows some of the stories. They believed in them, are they true? Well, science has easily disproved most, if not all, of it. But for the sake of argument, lets say science didn't figure it out. You also have the Christians who believe something completely different. Furthermore, both faiths aren't even compatable. Yet both groups believe. Who is right?

I'm already anticipating an answer of "both". I have heard that before, particularly with regards to the afterlife (in that whatever we believe will happen will, though I think some people read/saw What Dreams May Come one too many times). Granted, it looks like a simple solution, and everyone can walk away happy, but it isn't necessarily true. Remember, at the age of 6, the tooth fairy sounded like a good idea too.

I think a more interesting question would be, if the human race has existed for millions of years, and human civilization has existed for thousands of years, why do we still wonder if Chi exists? This isn't a new inquiry. People have been analyzing this for countless generations and we are no closer to the truth now than when people started questioning the existence of Chi.

So does Chi exist? After all this time, we still can't say for certain either way. We can "believe" it exists, but it doesn't necessarily result in its existence. Personally, one thing I don't believe in is faith, especially blind faith.

Honestly, I think it warrants more research. Even science has taken an interest in this. I had read a study a while back about the effects of "prayer" on the ill. There were two groups of sick people. One was the control group (that wasn't prayed for), and the other was an experimental group (that was prayed for). The prayer-ers came from a variety of religious backgrounds (I don't remember exactly, but they all might have been from various sects of Christians). Neither group knew they were in these groups or even about being in this study. However the experimental group did show a somewhat greater improvement in health compared to the control group. However, the population size was too small to consider the results to be significant. Once again, something to think about, but nothing really proven.

[Former castleva]

"Honestly, I think it warrants more research. Even science has taken an interest in this. I had read a study a while back about the effects of "prayer" on the ill. There were two groups of sick people. One was the control group (that wasn't prayed for), and the other was an experimental group (that was prayed for). The prayer-ers came from a variety of religious backgrounds (I don't remember exactly, but they all might have been from various sects of Christians). Neither group knew they were in these groups or even about being in this study. However the experimental group did show a somewhat greater improvement in health compared to the control group. However, the population size was too small to consider the results to be significant. Once again, something to think about, but nothing really proven."

There´s some study done.
I think what matters is attention,that special attention is what naturally makes one feel better (besides some very interesting research...)
It is possible to show minor improvement (this is a bit too complex to explain by such solutions given the nature of condition etc.) but there is no need to add any special power into this,except that of belief.
I´ve even seen some mocking being done on actual treatment,I guess that is done from a stable position considering that thousands of children have died because they had to trust on faith healing when 90% could have been treated with conventional medicine.
This is not meant to be offensive against christianity or religion whatsoever because I do not believe this to be of common character-ignorance preys only on uneducated.

"I think a more interesting question would be, if the human race has existed for millions of years, and human civilization has existed for thousands of years, why do we still wonder if Chi exists? This isn't a new inquiry. People have been analyzing this for countless generations and we are no closer to the truth now than when people started questioning the existence of Chi.

So does Chi exist? After all this time, we still can't say for certain either way. We can "believe" it exists, but it doesn't necessarily result in its existence. Personally, one thing I don't believe in is faith, especially blind faith."

Most hopefully we do not,unless we refuse to grow.
Chemistry/physics has a lot of work to do and keeps evolving,this may not be a major concern,eh (and the work they do can be translated into new findings)
This is an enviroment of materia we are around,and to point something out is to bring it out and measure it.
Someone said "For all complex problems,there is a solution that is both simple,direct and wrong" or something like that.
So if we do not wish to ponder on the complex,it is our choise and pretty much allright.
To lay the whole weight on some small concept is very easy compared to a thorough explanation (gee,what could one expect,considering)
So does it really make any sense to ponder on such?
That time is best spent studying something which has a meaning right here.

"Remember, at the age of 6, the tooth fairy sounded like a good idea too."

I remember this analogy.
A-Tooth fairy exists.
B-I do not think it does,you wish to show me?
A-Tooth fairy exists.
B-Where?
A-I saw it on my backyard,I did see.
B-Hmmm.
A-It does exist.Have you seen it?
B-No.
A-SEE? You cannot prove it does not exist!! :rolleyes:

The moral of the story:
You create something.YOU are responsible to confirm it´s validity in an OBJECTIVE,digestable way.
If you cannot,then it is logically dissed and you may may be slapped around the face (general "you")
It´s pretty fair,really.When it comes to things that affect-.

When there is a theory created in science,which is later noticed to be bs in light of evidence or lack of it for it´s side,it is rejected.
That´s one kind of growth,we shall practice this concept.
So if we are ready to practice this without further thought,we shall practice this method in all if needed.
Just my approach.




:)

(no rant) last post.

[Oso]

It wasn't supposed to be serious.
Of course chi exists. I believe in it. It exists for me.

I quit.

:(


Is there a secret manual on effective trolling somewhere?
Do you have to have 1000 posts before you get the secret
password?

[dezhen2001]

LOL youre just not so much of a bastarsd enough buddy - too nice :D no one has ever heard of a nice troll being effective... u have to be ---> :mad:

dawood

[Oso]

ok


IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN CHI THEN IT DOESN'T EXIST FOR YOU.


and you are a stupid poop head.





how's that.:D

[dezhen2001]

better!

but tell me something i dont already know :D

dawood

[StarBoy]

I think what matters is attention,that special attention is what naturally makes one feel better

In this study, the patients had no idea what was going on. The prayer-ers were in another room, so the patients didn't even have the company. They were just hanging out in their beds the same as anyone else in a hospital.



This is not meant to be offensive against christianity or religion whatsoever


Either way, take all the pot-shots at Christianity you want. I'm not a Christian so I don't really care.

No offense, but you said a lot of different scattered things in the last half of your post. I really don't know what you were going for.



This is an enviroment of materia we are around,and to point something out is to bring it out and measure it.


Chi can't be measured.



So if we do not wish to ponder on the complex,it is our choise and pretty much allright.


I never said we shouldn't ponder it. I was merely pointing out a lack of significant progress.



So does it really make any sense to ponder on such?


Yes it does. If it truly exists in the world around us, then it warrants inquiry, especially considering how little we know. Though I think pondering should not be the extent of the investigation. With only pondering, you have merely conjecture, and it makes it no different than any philosophy or religion. If that is the extend of one's interests, that's fine. But if one wants to determine the nature of reality/life/universe/whatever it would take more than hypothesizing to determine anything.



You create something.YOU are responsible to confirm it´s validity in an OBJECTIVE,digestable way.


See, I have a problem with that right there. This line of logic would suggest that humans are responsible for the creation of chi. Though it has many definitions, a common one is that it is a lifeforce that runs through all living things. To claim this lifeforce is the by-product of humankind's faith (humans being only one of the many forms of life on this planet) is completely unfounded and vainglorious.

And that's another thing. Do we really even have one generally accepted definition of chi.



It wasn't supposed to be serious.


:D :D :p

[red5angel]

Oso - I think it is the subject you chose, while its a joke to some others take it very very seriously :)

agreed to disagree ;) I haven't really looked at the gun control thread yet, I will head over and take a look!

[Oso]

red5, chi is very serious to me as well. funny thing is none of
the anit-chi'ers have hit the bait at all. that's where the fun
might have come in.



I guess I have to be more aggressive but I was trying to take
an angle that didn't include chi blasts.

back to the drawing board.

[Former castleva]

StarBoy,
I´m sorry but I think you misunderstood my post.

Anyway,I´ve expressed my ideas.
Peace.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, if trolling is what you want, maybe you should try this:

"Ninjas and BJJ only exist if you believe in them"

[Oso]

ninjas suck azz & not worth trolling


bjj has been done to death

besides, the 'gracies are scottish thing' is still going on the front
page.


and besides, I had a plan but it was completely unravelled.:rolleyes:

[Chang Style Novice]

ummm...

"Tank Abbott Only Exists if You Believe In Him"?

[red5angel]

Oso, if you really want a classic troll just put up a post with somehting like "My Wing Chun Lineage is the only true wing chun lineage!!!" ;) OR mention sparring or something useful in the wing chun forum and see what happens...

[StarBoy]

StarBoy,
I´m sorry but I think you misunderstood my post.

Anyway,I´ve expressed my ideas.


I'm guessing I did. How about clearing it up.



red5, chi is very serious to me as well. funny thing is none of
the anit-chi'ers have hit the bait at all.


I'm not saying I'm anti-chi. I was saying that conviction does not equal truth. The same applies to any belief. I don't think we should let our subjective perspectives cloud our ability to see the truth.

[morbicid]

"and you are a stupid poop head." ~posted by Oso




... That's MY line!!! You stole my line. B@stard. I've been using that since kindergarten

[Souljah]

I think the association some people are making of chi with 'MAGIC' is a nonsense. In our western mindset somethings people have claimed to be able to achieve through use of their chi may seem like magic but only because western science cannot explain it.
But there is not trickery involved in the usage of chi as with magicso i think this comparison is wrong principally.
Yes I do think that you have to believe in it to eventually gain control and 'induce' it but I believe it is something everybody has.... after all what is chi?
its the energy of life.....why is this so hard for people to comprehend? Just because it cannot be explained by western science through molecular transmission and so on doesnt mean that the eastern explanations for it are invalid.

Acupuncture has been pretty much accepted into western practice as people continue to learn about it we will find out what the nature of chi/qi really is IMO - it could be to do with electromagnetics.....heat transfer.....anything.....


greg

[StarBoy]

Yes I do think that you have to believe in it to eventually gain control and 'induce' it but I believe it is something everybody has.... after all what is chi?

That's a good question. What is Chi? And what are the supposed boundaries of it's inducement?

Truth be told, we really don't know much about it's nature and what it does. We can't even be sure it really exists.

[Oso]

truth is subjective.

I can in no way percieve your truth. only you can.
you can in know way disavow my truth. only I can.



morbicid

no, remember? I beat you at a game of kickball and stole your
right to the line.

silly poophead.:cool:

[red5angel]

I am going ot have to go with Han Solo on this one....

"[I]'ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny."

[Oso]

I love that line.

when I started all this kung fu hoopajoo (go Chef !)
many years ago I was the skeptic in the group and used
to spout that line. I'm still not very sure that it is an all
controlling force but I still maintain that no one knows what
that is because as human beans we can't even begin to
see the big picture or see the end of all existence because
the answers are only at the end of the equation.

over the years and with more experience chi has come to mean
something to me. probably not what it means for others
but that's the way it works in my opinion.

[red5angel]

I am holding tightly to my body mechanics theory.... :)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by StarBoy


That's a good question. What is Chi? And what are the supposed boundaries of it's inducement?

Truth be told, we really don't know much about it's nature and what it does. We can't even be sure it really exists.

Most of us can't even agree on what it is :D

[ZIM]

the inventor [really!] of trolling is here! (http://www.kibo.com/) explained in all its excruciating detail...from the original usenet on up.

[StarBoy]

Most of us can't even agree on what it is


That's half of my point. If something exists, we can usually come up with a generally accepted definition of it. Some say lifeforce, some say breath, some say its an aspect of body mechanics. These are three very different things that are called chi.


truth is subjective.

I disagree. There is only one truth, just many different perceptions. Belief isn't truth. Conviction isn't evidence. Having an idea doesn't make it a reality. Either something is or it is not. There is no in between.

Chi started as an idea. Without any actual proof in either direction, it's remained an idea all this time. Belief does not cause anything to exist. If that were true, Santa Claus would be real.

So like I said before, knowledge of the existence of chi is inconclusive.

[Oso]

ahh, universal truth.

maybe, but you'll ( or anyone else ) never convince everybody
that there is.


Belief isn't truth. Conviction isn't evidence.

it usually is to the believer. knowing this and taking advantage
of it is how to win friends and influence people. :)

this thread is about belief in something makes it real for you.

it could also be about not believing in something makes it not
real for you.

you don't believe that belief in chi makes it exist. ok. no problem.
evidently it doesn't have to exist for you and that's probably
ok for the rest of the world for that to be your truth.



I am holding tightly to my body mechanics theory....

that's cool. I'm all for body mechanics. Can't live w/o them.

I'm pretty sure that cultivation of chi requires maximum control
of body mechanics, at least in the beginning.

ftr, I work tai chi and chi kung to promote a sense (!) of better
health in myself. Tai chi has helped my physical power generation
by showing me good body linking. I don't really have concrete
proof of the first but definitely of the second.

I do feel that I can spar longer and basically tougher due to chi
cultivation but don't really feel that I'm issuing chi blasts with
my punches.

I guess I'm pretty middle of the road about the whole issue.:D

[joedoe]

I don't know if I accept that it is just good body mechanics. I believe that good body mechanics is part of it, but there is a whole lot more to qi than that.

[Laughing Cow]

Joedoe.

There is a article in T'ai Chi magazine(current or last) that discusses the use of Chi and the different viewpoints of MA doing TJQ.

Even within the TJQ community there are people that say Chi does not exist and is used only by frauds to hold their students back, etc.

IME, in a good school there will be VERY little talk about Chi, but much more about the "jings" and similar.

It was all written down a long time ago in the classics and treaties.

Cheers.

[pvwingchun]

If you don't believe in it then you don't believe and it is not real for you and it doesn't exist for you. Unless something can be proven scientifically many will not believe it exists and that is ok too. Alot of what you believe comes from your experience and background with the subject and life history.

[Serpent]

In my experience, when people have studied MA for long enough, especially if their school also emphasises qigong practice or something similar and more "internal" techniques as you advance, well, the idea of whether there is qi or not becomes pretty academic.

[Souljah]

Just because chi/qi is outside or beyond the boundaries of the western science 'BOX' doesnt mean its not possible.
But then I do think that in time people will be able to explain this internal energy through western science, there is research going on into it as we speak.

At the end of the day it does come down to whether you believe in it or not doesnt it.
Like people say
'you have to believe first only then can you acheive'.
Its the same I think. I wouldnt make a 25ft running jump if I didnt believe I could do it in some way...

I do believe in chi, but thats me, I know alot of you dont and thats cool, but the TRUTH is that I cant prove to you it exists (YET - in my belief).
But equally you CANNOT prove to me it doesnt exist can you?

So I will continue to believe in and work towards something you believe is unacheivable, I believe i'd be working towards a higher goal, whether I find out I have been wasting my time or not.

As martial artists teach you not to punch the target at the visible point, but to try and punch beyond the target.....I'm sure you've heard this and I think it is a valid comparison.


greg

[Ming Yue]

I'm gonna echo souljah a little,

I don't see why most of you see the concept of chi as being so mystical. To me, it's just energy, whether you call it life energy or life force or whatever.

We direct our energy all the time. When you think about lifting a coffee cup, for example, you potentiate the energy to do it before you actually act. You think "mmmm cofffeeee" and your brain goes:

locate cup
reach out
open hand
touch cup
close hand
lift cup
bend elbow
drink
needs sugar

Now, in the quantum amount of time between the thought and the action, the energy is poised to fire the muscles. it's potentiated. If you DONT pick up the cup, the energy moves on as planned to keep your heart beating or your fingers typing and you never missed a beat. But for an instant, just the thought of action prepared the energy required to complete the action.

Recent experiments with prosthetic devices have been working toward using thought to control external devices. you think about closing the prosthetic hand, and it closes. Specifically at this point, subjects have moved objects on a computer screen just by thinking about it. Granted, the energy in this case is generated externally, but it is called upon internally, by the subject's thought alone.

I know I may be oversimplifying, but why then, can't it be acceptable to you that with practice and concentration, amounts of human energy can be potentiated internally and directed consciously into a specific action? Even amounts beyond what we think we are usually capable of?

We have accepted that our bodies are actually capable of much beyond what the physics of our actual structure dictate we should be capable of. We're not supposed to be able to run a mile as fast as has been done by some athletes. Of course it's finite, we can't run that fast forever, but that said, why is it that you don't think our energy can be tapped beyond what we understand to be our normal limit and directed into an action or toward a target?

[ZIM]

you know, the more i learn about body mechanics and using muscles i didn't know i had, the more i get involved with rotation and adductions, the more i become aware of this 'something else'.

i think 'it' has something to do with chi, but thats the term we are given by these arts rather than any western recognized term... i think maybe in the west we'd previously referred to it as 'vitality' [in a historical sense] and that we'd thrown baby out with bathwater when we'd discredited the 'vitalism' movement [thanks, AMA!]. exploring the tenets of that movement gives a western base, imo. in other words, we defined it out of existence...can't test what isn't recognized.

i think also that our basic non-awareness of this 'energy' is due in part to our lack of connection to ourselves [obvious] as well as our typical bodily movements, given the nature of our common societies [uncomfy chairs, cement walks, eating while standing, the psychological popularity of having stress or depression [!], never bearing loads correctly [if any at all], the 'woe's me' fad /miserable childhood trend /'rugged individualist' myth etc.] which just take us further away from feeling it. thats not so obvious- it takes a lot of self-remembrance to change it.

it might seem like some of these are not related to body, but they are! its all reflected in how you carry yourself, day to day..

a lot of the work to finding a way to 'it' lies in uncovering obstacles and clearing the path, then its just a sort of 'aha!' nothing too mystical in that. the further stuff that we admire so greatly is just, in many ways, deeper explorations of the same principle in other areas [mind, etc.]

I should add that i'm speaking in relation to mostly internal qiqong, not the external variations, tho there can be a lot of common ground...

[Chang Style Novice]

How does psychosomatic illness fit into the notion of qi existing only for believers? If a healthy patient can raise his or her temperature to a fever, is that directing one's qi? Sound's like it is to me. Yogis and qigong masters are able to lower their body temperature and slow down their heart rate - more of the same stuff, sounds like. The way I see it, qi certainly exists in the form of vital energy. There's something that's different about living and dead tissue - may as well call it qi, right? We aren't - yet -able to measure it per se, and as long as we have charlatans like Rich Mooney overstating the case for what qi is and what it's capable of they are going to succeed in discrediting the notion and blurring the general scientific community's perception of it.

Let's try another definition. Instead of vital energy, qi is what permits someone is able to effect their body with their mind in a fashion other than simple motor function. Or maybe that's i. I don't pretend to really understand all these chinese terms.

[ZIM]

CSN- sorry, Rich Mooney? Cashed in on the cult, did he? :p Really, not familiar. Maybe thats good.

Agreed re: trying another defintion- what my point is, is that we'd thrown it out before getting it down to science, is all... i think we were, historically now, begininng to get a clue.

[Chang Style Novice]

Run a search for him on google - and make sure your stomach is empty.

[StarBoy]

it usually is to the believer

Once again, in that case we are not talking about truth, but perception.


Just because chi/qi is outside or beyond the boundaries of the western science 'BOX' doesnt mean its not possible.


I never said it wasn't possible. I said its existence can't be confirmed.



I don't see why most of you see the concept of chi as being so mystical. To me, it's just energy, whether you call it life energy or life force or whatever.


When I am addressing the nature of Chi, I'm addressing chi by its "mystical" definition.



How does psychosomatic illness fit into the notion of qi existing only for believers? If a healthy patient can raise his or her temperature to a fever, is that directing one's qi?


I disagree with this. You don't need to be a Qigong master to **** around with your body temp. I've been doing it since high school to fake sick and get a day off. It's the same as moving your arm to steer your car or moving your legs to walk. It's about body control and firing neurons to get your body to do certain things. If you want to define chi/qi as a non-metaphysical energy that allows your body to perform (in other words, Joules, calories, or whatever), that's fine and logical as you're just giving another name to a physiological process.

---

If chi is a term used to describe an unknown force that allows us to do certain things, that works. We are just giving a label to an observable phenomenon. However, when one starts saying that chi is this spritual energy that can be harnessed to do these things, that crosses the lines.

I mean, look at humankind's experience with the unknown in the past. Anytime they see something that they can't explain, they would blame "the gods" or some other "spiritual" being or force. That's how they used to explain lightning in Mesopotamia. When lightning struck it meant the gods were ****ed and you had to go to your local ziggurat and make a sacrifice. What a waste of time that was as lightning is the result of an atmostpheric condition (it's been years since meteorology so I can't remember the whole process). Want more proof it's not spirits? Well, nobody on this planet has been to a ziggurat for thousands of years and we haven't seen more lightning than usual.

You'll see this in pretty much all areas of spiritualism/mysticism in all parts of the world. To call chi this powerful spiritual force without truly understanding it's nature is just a self-delusion and while you're at it you might as well practice forms on a ziggurat.

My conclusion and point is that nobody who defines chi as a metaphysical element truly understands chi. It's simply another theosophy.

[ZIM]

Oh, one of *those* guys...

[Oso]

yep, but that's ok.

[ZIM]

However, when one starts saying that chi is this spritual energy that can be harnessed to do these things, that crosses the lines.

two points:
1] depends on what qi you're talking about. within chinese thought, there are divisions in some lines which divvy body qi, spiritual qi, etc. spiritual has a different function, at least initially. it can also be viewed as 'i'm doing this first, the rest will follow.' I don't completely agree with that path, but who am i to argue?

2] 'to do these things'- when you say this, i'm imagining you're talking in reference to MAs- in which case I to-diddly-do agree.

[StarBoy]

yeah, all I was really saying is that you can never really know...therefore it's not knowledge, it's just a belief, which merely an egocentric perception.

Though I had a similar debate with a friend of mine and we came to the conclusion you can never really "know" anything.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by StarBoy
[...]we came to the conclusion you can never really "know" anything.
What makes you so sure? :)

[Former castleva]

While this shot may keep this thread alive,I have come to the conclusion that threads/subjects like these tend to run out of hard science with fair amount of succes which results in lectures or documents on subjective philosophy.
A bit like arguing about religion.

[Souljah]

the 'hard scientific evidence' is not there because there is a lack of interest in researching into it.....IMO.
It will remain a belief based dicussion until someone can prove or disprove it.....and, SO FAR noone has done either.

[Former castleva]

the 'hard scientific evidence' is not there because there is a lack of interest in researching into it.....IMO.""
No wonder.

"It will remain a belief based dicussion until someone can prove or disprove it.....and, SO FAR noone has done either."
It will remain such.
This has been covered to a great degree imo.Makes me feel this is not high on the priorities of a serious person,but we will know who is to make that serious research for backing this up,that is the men having died at least many centuries ago.May they rest in peace.

[greendragon]

since my body mechanics are out on strike i think i'll start a chi ball fight. --------> did that one hit you Oso ?

[Oso]

no, my shield maiden stepped between us and took it for me.
She's good at that. And, makin' pies.



I'm still really ****ed off that my troll about chi got hijacked into a serious thread:mad: :mad: :mad:

[dezhen2001]

I'm still really ****ed off that my troll about chi got hijacked into a serious thread

:D

dawood

[Oso]

friggin chi hippies:mad:

[dezhen2001]

im not a chi hippy :mad:

dawood

[Former castleva]

Love and chi friends. :D

[Oso]

wasn't talking bout you dez !

and, was mainly joking.

[StarBoy]

What makes you so sure?

You can't be sure, that's it. The only certain thing is uncertainty.



It will remain a belief based dicussion until someone can prove or disprove it.....and, SO FAR noone has done either.


I wasn't trying to prove or disprove it. I was basically saying that it was a believe based discussion and nobody can concretely support their position.



I'm still really ****ed off that my troll about chi got hijacked into a serious thread


I don't even think I understand trolling. Isn't this what is supposed to happen in a troll? :D

[ZIM]

Well, it's hel luva late to reply on this 'un, but I know FC likes this sort of thing, so here goes:

threads (http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/airthred.html) [when reading, remember that chinese believe in atmospheric qi, as well as many other kinds]

biologically closed electric circuits (http://coldcure.com/html/bcec.html)

and this is where i found them! (http://www.amasci.com/weird/const.html) [still looking at it]

That should keep you busy! :D Whatchya think? Is it chi yet?

[Oso]

not enough flaming, no one is calling anyone names (except me),
no challenges made in a non-english language....see, this is very benign.

[ZIM]

Now, now...! (http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/frank/sounds/touched.wav)

Hint: if you want a better one, replace "touched" in the URL with "bas tard" [which could not be placed here]

Satisfied? probly not.

[Former castleva]

"Well, it's hel luva late to reply on this 'un, but I know FC likes this sort of thing, so here goes: "
Now that is a slap in the face,lol. ;)
Thanks.

...Is that Michael Douglas in that clip?

:confused:

[ZIM]

Nope, Gene Wilder- it was 'young frankenstein'

"Now that is a slap in the face,lol. "

Really- what did you think? The second link was, i thought, more to the point... ;) And it makes sense: the qi folks keep saying its a natural thing, nothing mystical, you just gotta be in touch with it...

Neuroscience helps, sure, but this seems to point to the direction of biophysics... anyhow, i thought it would give you some angles for testing out your theories with scientific evidence.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
not enough flaming, no one is calling anyone names (except me),
no challenges made in a non-english language....see, this is very benign.

Oso, you're a complete fukking wimp with absolutely no brain! What's the matter with you!? Of course chi exists. Just because you're too limp-d!cked to be able to experience it, don't automatically think that everyone else is as much of a pu$sy as you are!

I'll fight you in any language, b!tch, and then you'll know all about chi!





































(How's that?)

[Oso]

I feel much better, thanks.:)

[dezhen2001]

when u fight... no chi-ting :D

dawood

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
I feel much better, thanks.:)

No worries.

:)