OT - Diving for the Glock...

[Losttrak]

Hey I am about to pick up a handgun but I have varying opinions on which ones to get. Any of you peeps been shopping recently or have experience in this area? I am stuck between the Browning semi's and the Glocks. I like the ergonomic look to the Browning grips (not to mention their aesthetic appeal) but Glock has alot of safety/trigger features that sound handy. Anyone got any info, personal handgun opinons/preferences?

[TKD]

I would reccomend Glock over Browning anyday, whether it's for range shooting or CC(concealed carry). I think the Glock is superior. A suggestion for CC though, if you get a Glock I wouldn't go for a full size, awkward to have to hide for so long.

[Water Dragon]

I have a Smith & Wesson model 410 .40 cal. I love it. Smith's guns tend to be a little thin so they carry very nicely.

My wife carrys a Colt .380. I like that gun a lot as well.

I'm not a big fan of Glock.

[SaMantis]

Glock.

Light, smooth, nice fit to the hand, enjoyable to fire. Relatively idiot-proof ("relatively" since it's still a gun). Maybe I'm partial to it because as a female I prefer a weapon that feels lighter. And goes with my outfit. :)

[morbicid]

the glok.
perfect for holding up a 7-11 ... or um, yeah the firing range

[Suntzu]

I didn't find the Glock too safe… if u can call a gun that… alltho I didn't play with it too much… plus i find them a lil too 'all over the place'...but I would have to go with a Sig… not a lot of recoil… but loud… S&W is a good choice… but I wouldn't go with the Sigma tho… Beretta's will go off if the wind blows the wrong way... the second shot... the first one feels like u squeezin a full tomato can... S&W or Sig... my top 2...

[shaolin kungfu]

I'd go with the glock over the browning. If I was buying a gun, I'd go with the beretta 9000s type f. It's pretty small and good for cc.

[dwid]

If not for cc, go with a colt 1911 .45.

In my opinion, this is the best semi-auto for the price.

If cc, I would personally go with a walther ppk for a semi-auto, or a short-barrelled smith and wesson .357 for a revolver.

Depending on your level of commitment, you way want to consider a revolver anyway. It will require less maintenance than a semi-auto and will generally be safer and more reliable imho.

[Losttrak]

:) Thanks, thats some good feedback. Thanks, SaMantis, for the info. My GF wants to come shooting so that may help her in finding a style she likes also (She is very wardrobe conscious as well :D ).

[TKD]

If we're talking favorites, I go with the Makarov. Smallish size to carry, 9x18 round good enough if you have to stop someone without having to put a saucer sized hole in them. The gun itself costs about $250 for a top of the line specimen. Clips can be had for $6.00. Can be completely field stripped and reassembled in less than 40 seconds, not requiring any tools to do so. Can be completely disassembled and reassembled in 10 minutes with one tool. Official sidearm of the Russian army. Not to mention, when you buy one, the addiction gets you and you have to have more! It has an eight round clip. A double and single action trigger pull and,,,, wait, I'll stop boring you now.:D


TKD

[Suntzu]

IME… Glocks don’t group well… actually most small cc's don’t group well… besides the point… fullsize glocks don’t group well… and like I said Bereatta second pull is tooooo lite… unless u know how to tweak them… anybody play with Beretta Cougar yet???

[pvwingchun]

If going concealed carry look at the Kimber line. Great line of weapons. Full size you can't beat the Colt 1911/1991. Springfield also makes a good gun. This model has been copied by virtually every maufacturer out there in some form and for a good reason. For stopping power go with the .45 it can't be beat but if control is an issue something with a little less recoil, look at the 9mm or .380. Personally have a full sized Colt and concealed carry Springfield both are great guns.

[SaMantis]

I first used a glock on an Army firing range ... one of our CWO's owned a full-size model. In comparison to the 1911 Colt .45 models we were qualifying with, the glock was a joy to fire.

My shot grouping was ****ty in any case but I just had more fun with the Glock.

Anyone still own/carry pocket guns? I remember as a kid a married couple who were friends of my parents had matching Remingtons, "His & Hers" models. "Hers" was a chrome/silver .22 semiautomatic, "His" was chrome w/pearl handles & slightly larger caliber.

[dwid]

I first used a glock on an Army firing range ... one of our CWO's owned a full-size model. In comparison to the 1911 Colt .45 models we were qualifying with, the glock was a joy to fire.

I've got to say I'm amazed by this. For its size, the 1911 is really easy to fire. Granted, a 9mm has next to no recoil by comparison, but you get what you pay for. The trade-off of stopping power just doesn't seem worth it to me.

After one day of shooting a 1911, I found I grew quite accustomed to the recoil. It's quite smooth compared to other high caliber semi-autos I've fired.

[Losttrak]

On a recent trip to Palestine, Texas I believe I saw some pocket guns in a sporting goods store. My GF is intimidated by the larger guns... maybe those would work? Thing is... i dont want her to shoot herself while rummaging for her lipstick or something. I am just a little worried about the reliablity of such small guns.

[Losttrak]

Those Kimbers look nice....

http://the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page5.html

[dwid]

I know several people who are very happy with their kimbers. If cost isn't prohibitive for you, I say go for it.

[TKD]

If your girlfriend wants something small with a "friendly" recoil, I really would reccomend a Makarov. It's only 6.2 inches long and weighs 1.46 lbs. It's a small gun but not tiny. Here's a pic.

[pvwingchun]

I have a .45/410 pocket gun. Very hard to hold onto. Plus I couldn't hit the side of a house with it. But it sure is fun to shot.

For the GF look at the Beretta .380's they are very nice and small. Have a full sized Beretta and it is a fine weapon. I think someone mentioned the Beretta Cougar earlier, that would be worth looking at.

Plus the Makarov's are good.

[Budokan]

I have about .1kg of uranium slurry surgically implanted at the base of my spine. It can be detonated (killing radius of 300 meters) simply by pulling my weasel three times in rapid succession.

Naturally, this makes for quite a problem while I'm surfing internet porn, but then again I don't have to worry about trigger pull and groupings like you guys.

[Losttrak]

Yeah that Makarov is very nice... It may be my #2. I like the simplicity.

[joedoe]

LOL @ Budokan. I guess sex is a problem too :D

[fa_jing]

.44 desert eagle??

j/k


Hey WD, what are the carry laws in IN? I have a license to carry in the state of Pennsylvania, does me no good here.

[Waidan]

Sigs are the way to go, honestly. My friend has a P239 and a P226, and I've shot those many times. I personally own a 232, and I dig that little guy. Can't beat them for accuracy or reliability. I've also got to put in a word for the H&Ks. I've got a USP40C, and it's a pleasure to shoot and clean. Plus, it's got a lot of ambidexterious features for us leftist folk. Only problem with the HKs is the price, which tends to be rather inflated.

[Fred Sanford]

I like glocks because they don't have a lot of crazy safeties(grip safeties and whatnot, wtf you need all those buttons for) and they are known to be very reliable - not a lot of moving parts. when you figure that most gun fights are close range you don't need a combat shooter to be super tight as far as accuracy goes.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I have a Smith & Wesson model 410 .40 cal. I love it. Smith's guns tend to be a little thin so they carry very nicely.

My wife carrys a Colt .380. I like that gun a lot as well.

I'm not a big fan of Glock.

I knew about yours. Didn't know about hers though.

[SaMantis]

dwid,

not knocking Colt .45's at all; can't argue with stopping power. :) The weapons we were qualifying with were so old I wondered if they were made in 1911.

Funny thing is, during the Gulf War I was issued a .45 from the same weapons rack every time I traveled near the front lines. Sure didn't feel heavy then. In fact I think my only request was "more bullets, please." :D

[Black Jack]

I am more of a wheelgun guy myself. Though I enjoy the colt 1911 .45 models very much.

Have you checked out revolvers as a sidearm? For private citizen self defense most gunfire situations occur at less than five feet so the six rounds should be pretty sufficient.

Some reasons why I like revolvers. You don't have to fiddle with the gun to see if it's loaded. You can see if there are rounds housed in the cylinder and better yet you can feel them in the dark. They have widely acknowledged excellent reliability, it can't double feed so there is one less problem, it has fewer moving parts so you have less "oh shiznit" moments, weather extremes effect a revolvers functioning much less than a semi's, and if there is a misfire you can reflexively correct it by pulling the trigger, no need for complex re-function instructions.

Plus consider the "compound" approach to the training, meaning that when you train on one brand of revolver for the basic part you have trainined on them all, it makes you instantly familiar with its other brothers, no funky gizmo's to operate, which means it is great for beginners, just point and pull.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I knew about yours. Didn't know about hers though.

That's because at the time I didn't know that much about you ;)

[Waidan]

I'll second the revolver option. I've got a GP100, and it's about as reliable a gun as one could hope for. The lack of a floating barrel makes in deadly accurate also, at least when firing single-action.

[pvwingchun]

Any well maintained weapon should be reliable and if it isn't get rid of it and get one that is. Jams and misfires are an accident waiting to happen.

[Radhnoti]

I've been hearing LOTS of good things about Springfield's XD series. It's polymer...like the Glocks, but with a body design similar to (I think) the Sig's. Meaning it's eliminated the "weird angle" of the Glock grip that makes it counter-intuitive for some people to aim.

It's got a grip safety, a trigger safety and another internal safety (I think a firing pin safety?) that makes it one of the safer guns you could carry.

It's previous incarnation had it carried as the firearm of choice in Croatia...with years of dependable service records.

Plus, it's cost new is $389 to $480 bucks, making it at least a few hundred bucks cheaper than the typical Glock. If you can find it HS2000 is the name used before Springfield bought it, and that'll knock another $100 bucks off.

I've been considering buying one...which is why I've got this much info on it right now.

[Aslan]

Personally, I like the colt officer's model. I shooter groups with it than I do with my Beretta.

I did put a larger beavertail and a memory groove grip safety on it, but it shot extremely well prior to those mods, which were more for carry issues than anything else.

[Black Jack]

Even a well maintained weapon can misfire. My point was that revolvers have superior reliablility. It is a widely acknowledged statement. You get a malfunction in a semi-auto and it could be one of a many number of things. Such as the mag, ejector, spring, extractor, the ammo, or any other part. With a revolver if it does not discharge on the first pull it is likely to go bang the next time.

Rad,

Isn't the Springfield XD series made in 9mm Luger only?

[Fred Sanford]

nah I know they make the XD in 9mm and .40

[Black Jack]

Thanks,

I take it as with Springfield they come with the Novak Low Mount rear sight. Sounds like a nice weapon.

I believe their is a XD Challenge course for shooters.

[Fred Sanford]

actually I'm going shooting today in just a little bit, I'm going to try out the XD if I get the chance.

[Black Jack]

If you get a chance to use one it would be interesting to hear your experiance.

Cheers,

[pvwingchun]

My point was that a well maintained weapon with good and proper ammo won't misfire. Those problems are generally due to lack of maintenance and examination, but then if you don't want to spend the time maintaining and examining a weapon of that sort then don't own one and get a revolver, but even a poorly maintained revolver will have those problems. There are simply less things to go wrong with a revolver. I have put thousands upon thousands of rounds through 4 semi autos and never had a misfire or a jam.

[pvwingchun]

I am not putting down revolvers I even own a few, all I am saying is that proper maintence and care can eliminate most of the problems you mentioned. But when they get dirty they can be just as tempermental.

[StarBoy]

I hope you didn't buy anything yet, but I strongly advise against a Glock. They are generally considered to be uncomfortable and not that great overall compared to its competitors. Depending on what you want to spend there are a lot of better options. And don't think about asthetics, not for a piece you plan to use, instead of collect.

These are all 9mm. You're GF should be able to handle them, or at least get used to it pretty quick.

1) Sig-Sauer P228: Kinda pricey, but pretty much the best you'll find.

2) Ruger P-series: More reasonably priced and good quality.

3) H&K USP: Also pricey, but extremely good quality

4) CZ-75 (or TZ-75): I haven't shot one yet, but my friend uses one and loves it. Really accurate, moderately priced and good quality.

These are all good firearms, and much better than the Glock.

[Black Jack]

I gottcha, keeping a gun well maintained and clean should be common sense, all I am saying is that things fail at the worst possible moment, I am not beating up on semi-auto's, just stating certain aspects of a revolver which I tend to favor, though I to own a semi-auto.

To repeat one of my points is that if you do have a misfire, you can reflexively correct it with a better chance of success than a pistol, by reflexively I mean just pull the trigger, something a person does anyway with a firearm under stress, since there are less lengthy re-function maneuvers and working parts you will have a better chance to getting off that next shot, I just find them more versatile.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Fred Sanford]

I've shot glocks and like them just fine.

they are very reliable and simple. It's a low profile gun which makes it easy to sight in on, unlike guns like the HK which are higher profile. HKs have a safety that needs to be swept, just one more thing that can go wrong.

If Glocks suck then why do all the magazines use the glock as the standard for all other combat shooters to live up to?

[Black Jack]

One tends to see a lot of law enforcement carry the glock as their first duty weapon of choice

www.glock.com

[pvwingchun]

To repeat one of my points is that if you do have a misfire, you can reflexively correct it with a better chance of success than a pistol, by reflexively I mean just pull the trigger, something a person does anyway with a firearm under stress, since there are less lengthy re-function maneuvers and working parts you will have a better chance to getting off that next shot, Agree

[pvwingchun]

I gottcha, keeping a gun well maintained and clean should be common sense, Unfortunately this is not always true.

[Losttrak]

Went gun shopping again yesterday...

You ever get the feeling when you put a weapon in your hands... tingling... perfect balance and it feels that its molded to your hands? Thats what I felt when I put the 1911 Springfield .45 in my hand. It was a moment of pleasure to view the lines and strength in its form, the weight in my hands... I was smitten the moment I touched it. Dayam. Even dreamt about it last night. Sheeesh. Plus it has a very heroic history. It will be mine, Oh YES.. it will be mine. I even spotted a few guns for the chick. She held a few of them and WHOAH... there is something about a woman with a gun in her hand.... reow. Well, as long as it isnt pointed at me. :D

[Waidan]

Someone mentioned the Ruger P series. Man, those guns feel clunky and cheap to me, kinda similar to the Colt semi-autos. I originally checked out the P series when I was shopping for a .40, and shot the .40 DAO model. I ended up going with a H&K. I like Ruger in general (I own a 10/22 Ranch, a Mark II, and a GP100), but I steer people away from the P's.

[Black Jack]

The 1911 pistol is the most prolific and IMO the greatest pistol design ever produced. It's historic history could be argued as second to none. Iwo Jima saw plenty of use of the .45 caliber pistol. Medal of Honor citations have showcased some of this in sterile black and white.

I am lucky enough to have my grandfathers WW2 Navy S&W Victory Model .38 Special.

[Radhnoti]

The XD is available in 9mm, .40 cal, .357 Sig. The typical barrel length is 4'', though the "tactical" model is 5'' and Springfield has just released the 3'' subcompact 9mm.
Rumor has it that 2004 will bring the release of a .45 cal.

I am greatly interested in the subcompact...;)

[Fred Sanford]

So I shot the XD-9 (9mm) today, its a full size pistol.

it shoots pretty well and at first glance looks like a clone of the glock 17 (9mm) which I was shooting today also.

I thought it shot fine, to me it felt about the same (maybe a little better)as the glock 17 but the glock is old with worn grips, so....

the XD is slightly higher profile than the glock,

it does have a grip safety which you can make up your own mind about.

The biggest gripe that I personally had was that the magazines seemed really cheap in quality, guess they had to cut cost somewhere. Just bare metal, I got the feeling that if you were pressing down hard trying to get those last couple of rounds loaded and slipped that it would be easy to cut
yourself.

for me it had come down to either the Glock-19 or the XD9 and I have to say that I'm going with the glock. I just like the feel a hell of a lot better and it's more easily concealed than the XD plus i'm not too keen on the grip safety.

[Serpent]

It is absolutely terrifying to me (as someone that grew up in the UK and now lives in Australia) that you all talk so casually about all the guns you own and the joy you get from them. So blase.

Terrifying.

[Fred Sanford]

It is absolutely terrifying to me (as someone that grew up in the UK and now lives in Australia) that you all talk so casually about all the guns you own and the joy you get from them. So blase.

LOL. It's because we are evil.

you are just jealous, admit it.

[joedoe]

I gotta admit guns fascinate me. However the thought of widespread ownership of them kinda sends shivers up my spine. I know how many idiots there are around and the thought of them being able to own guns is frightening.

I can accept that guns are a fact of life in the USA, but I don't think we need them here in Australia.

[pvwingchun]

That is the problem with gun ownership in a country where citizens have the right to own a gun, fairly unimpeded, even the idiots can have them. But it is one problem I am willing to put up with.

[joedoe]

The USA is a different case to Australia because of the existing number of guns in the USA. I would probably want one over there too ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford


LOL. It's because we are evil.

you are just jealous, admit it.

No, really. You couldn't pay me to live in the US.

[dwid]

It is absolutely terrifying to me (as someone that grew up in the UK and now lives in Australia) that you all talk so casually about all the guns you own and the joy you get from them. So blase.


You have to understand the context here. People who enjoy firearms and develop a little expertise/knowledge about them tend to look at them the same way as people who really enjoy cars look at cars. There is a beauty in the engineering and construction, and wide variation in opinions regarding performance of each type of machine.

It's a little hard to understand coming from a culture in which firearms are strictly controlled, but you have to understand that America has a long and proud history of firearms ownership, so people have no reason to be ashamed or feel awkward talking about how they enjoy something that is a constitutional right.

[Radhnoti]

Fred, I have one more piece of info on the XD 9 that you may find interesting. The XD (probably not the sub-compact though) enjoys legal post-ban high capacity magazines. How? The clip for the .40 cal XD fits in the 9mm, perfectly. If you load the .40 cal clip with 9mm, it holds 15...perfectly. It is not illegal (I have a document from the ATF that states it to be legal) because the clip was manufactured to hold .40 cal, and it has not been modified by the owner. Thus, with the XD you can have inexpensive clips that hold 15 9mm shots.
It may become a non-issue when the 10 shot "assault weapon" ban sunsets...or (as I suspect/fear) this issue might be a bone Bush throws the anti-gun crowd.

Here's a searchable bb with more info on the XD than you'd ever want to have:
http://www.hs2000talk.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi

[Losttrak]

You have to understand the context here. People who enjoy firearms and develop a little expertise/knowledge about them tend to look at them the same way as people who really enjoy cars look at cars. There is a beauty in the engineering and construction, and wide variation in opinions regarding performance of each type of machine.


Amen. There is something as spiritual in the gun as in the sword. We all played guns as kids and grew up with the fantasy and after owning one... their sleek form and complexity entrall me still. Plus, in the role of protector... I never want the ones I love to suffer violence for my inability to escalate.

[dwid]

And whether people want to accept it or not, in the era of the gun, weapons such as swords become historical relics.

Arguably, they were responsible for the ending of the relevance of the samurai in Japan.

People who don't understand firearms typically demonize them as inherently evil and as taking the skill out of martial arts. Anyone who really pursues firearms skills as a martial art or for sporting purposes or whatever, quickly realizes there is a great deal of subtlety and nuance to learning to use them well.

[ewallace]

Originally posted by joedoe
The USA is a different case to Australia because of the existing number of guns in the USA. I would probably want one over there too ;)
Exactly. I personally wish that we didn't have the gun problem that we do. And that is hard to say considering where I live.

For those that think this talk is frightening, you should see the folks that don't know squat about firearms and carry them regularly.

[StarBoy]

It is absolutely terrifying to me (as someone that grew up in the UK and now lives in Australia) that you all talk so casually about all the guns you own and the joy you get from them. So blase.

Terrifying.


Well, it's no surprise, especially if you grew up in the UK. This doesn't really exist in your culture. However, in the US, firearms are a pretty common occurance. Don't be so ethnocentric and the idea of firearms won't be so terrifying.

[Black Jack]

Fred- Thanks for the review. The safety system for the XD you talk about I believe is called by Springfield the "USA" (Ultra Safety Assurance) system.

Sounds complicated but interesting. I have to get my hands on a XD to see for myself.

Rad- Thats a lot of rounds!

Serpent- :rolleyes: Talk about a way to ruin a good post. To bad we can't all be as pure as you. On a side note I would not want to live in your neck of the woods either. Let's leave it at that.

[dwid]

(I've fired many, but this is the first one I've actually bought for myself.)

I got a S&W 586 .357 magnum with a 6 inch barrel.

I've wanted a .357 smith for a while, so I am oh so happy.

Just thought I'd share.

[SaMantis]

My experience with the majority of gun owners/collectors is that they are very normal, stable people who act responsibly when carrying and storing weapons. In fact, I've found that the quality of their character can often be measured against how well/poorly they maintain and store their guns.

As an aside -- part of my family lives in and around Kennesaw, GA. What's unique about Kennesaw is that all male residents over age 21 are required to own at least one gun! In the 1990s Kennesaw had the lowest rate of violent crime in the U.S. Go figure.

[dwid]

In the 1990s Kennesaw had the lowest rate of violent crime in the U.S. Go figure.

That's not surprising at all.

The state of Vermont has the most lax policy on guns of any state in the U.S. Any adult in Vermont, whether a resident or not, is allowed to carry a concealed weapon without any special permit. As a state, Vermont has one of the lowest rates of violent crime of any in the nation.

To anyone who feels the need to use this statement as a launchpad for a debate on gun control law> I'm not trying to spark such a debate, as I realize there are many other factors at work here, such as average annual income and population density. I'm simply pointing out that permissive firearms laws in and of themselves do not equate to higher rates of violent crime.

[TKD]

Ahhhh, the oh so beautiful state of Vermont. That is one thing I like about living here. Absolutely, one of the easiest states to own a gun in. If it wasn't for the Federal law about being at least 18 to own a gun you could buy them here at the age of 16.

Losttrak, I do highly reccomend buying a Makarov, one of the most reliable auto pistols in the world, no joke. 50 years in use by the Soviet army, that truly will tell you if a gun works or not. Also, jams are practically nonexistant. To be fare though, hollow point ammo will jam in some of the Makarovs unless you polish the feed ramp, some are pretty crudely polished.

TKD

[Black Jack]

For all your Makarov questions-there is a lot of info here on the Markarov check out this link.

http://makarov.com/index.html


For some reason they remind me of a James Bond villians gun.

[Radhnoti]

Let me add that I've heard almost nothing but RAVE REVIEWS of the non-polymer CZ pistols. It would be my OTHER handgun to lust after, were it not for the XDs.

...I'm also intending (someday) to own a Remington 870 Marine Magnum.