Against two men, and against three men ?

[TzuChan]

1vs2, and 1vs3 seems to be the most popular robbing style near my school, hasn't happened to me for quite a while now, but I'm just wondering, when you HAVE to fight to get out in one piece (no running blabla pls :)) HOW would you take on TWO guys standing in front of you, and second, how would you take on THREE guys standing in front of you (or a bit surrounding you). THis is purely hypothetical, so you HAVE to fight, what would be the punches/kicks you'd throw at them from which you're confident that'd knock them out, or give you the time to get out =)

Greetz

[Cheese Dog]

Well, since I can't run---

ATTACK! Fast and hard-- go for one of the guys on the end, trying to keep your attackers in a line rather than letting them surround you

Favorite attacks

Sidekick to knee (Front or side)
Tiger claw to eyes
Spearhand to throat
Knifehand to throat
Elbow to throat
Kneestrike to inner thigh
Reverse punch to solar plexus or floating rib
Uppercut to floating rib or under chin
Front kick to inner thigh

Many of these attacks can flow naturally into neck cranks/breaks and throws and sweeps. Taking out an attacker and throwing him into his accomplices can be very intimidating.

[Aslan]

Whenever possible use one of the attackers to sheild you from any others.

Move, Move, Move!

Hit & move!

If you try to stay linear, you will be hurt.

Change direction frequently, always keeping at least one attacker between yourself and the others.

(Not always possible, but should be part of your strategy)

With multiple attackers, you will get hit, but you at least have some control over how hard and what you are willing to expose.

We do a lot of 2 on 1 and 3 on 1 drills at our school. (probably the most exhausting sparring you will ever do.)

Hope this makes some sense and is useful.

(this is keeping my mind busy will I wait for 12 million records to be updated into a database...)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Make sure you have no money on you and prove to them you'ge got nothing to take. If done convincingly they have no reason to attack you.
Failing that focus an accurate blow to leader enough to make the others think twice, for me an obvious choice (but you have to be fast here) is an attack to the throat, adams apple, as this is (in my experience) the easiest way to render them inooperative.

[Losttrak]

Hmmmm My techniques vary since I have alot more leverage than the average peep (6'5") I rush the smallest and use him as a shield until I leapfrog to the next. Naturally, you need to be well versed at "entering/gap-closing" techniques to even get this far. I generally keep them constantly off balance by either half-nelson or choke combined with footwork. There is a way of pulling a "Chris Rock" and simply shaking the sh1t outta peeps while maintaining control. Never let them get their footing... But I doubt that in extreme cases this could work (your opponent outweighs you by a load). As soon as you can clamp on the throat safely with a choke, take him out. If you can smash his head on the ground like a pineapple.. go for it. Once you have the back there are many options for defense and offense.

[HuangKaiVun]

I have one student that fought a major brawl lately (right before he came to train with us).

What he did was take out one guy quickly, then move on to the next one. He ended up going through about 4 guys before the others ran away.

Basically, the guys in my school who have fought more than 3 guys in the past have the same strategy. They'll go for quick efficient knockouts and then move on to the next opponent.

[TzuChan]

What would those quick efficient knockouts be ?

[Liokault]

What would those quick efficient knockouts be ?

Most guy (my self included) cant count on a quick efficient knock out when its 1 on 1 let alone against multi oponents.

['MegaPoint]

I'm in Texas so 2-on-1 or 3-0n-1, all I need is 1 gun. For the reals though, there are ways to fight multiple opponents with some success. Can't tell you them, though. Just listen to Asian.

[Aslan]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
I'm in Texas so 2-on-1 or 3-0n-1, all I need is 1 gun. For the reals though, there are ways to fight multiple opponents with some success. Can't tell you them, though. Just listen to Asian.

Have you ever done reaction drills with a gun? I'm curious - basically if an attacker is within 21 feet of you, you will not be able to draw a gun and engage them before they are upon you.

And with multiple attackers, you will most likely end up the victim of your own gun.

If you can, get an airsoft pistol, or a toy gun that shoots those little plastic pellets, one that fits your carry rig.

Have an opponent start at different distances, rushing at you. You can even say "GO". See how far away they have to start before you can successfully draw the gun and shoot them.

(These guns will approximate using a double action pistol.)

Please don't try this with an actual loaded firearm.

I guarantee this will be a very educational experience for you.

If your attacker is a reasonably skilled martial artist, you will be in big trouble.

Also, what weapons retention drills have you done? And do you practice them regularly?

Prison inmates spend a lot of time teaching each other techniques for disarming police and armed citizens.

Learning firearms handling and use is more than just target shooting. It's no different from any other martial art, other than mistakes or poor technique is guaranteed to kill someone.

If you're going to carry, carry responsibly.

'nough said.:D

[TzuChan]

****ed, I tried this out, and well, now I'm single again =[
















:D

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by TzuChan
****ed, I tried this out, and well, now I'm single again =[:D

Friggin' hilarious! LMFAO!!!

Anyway, yeah I was a Pararescuman in the AF. I know about gun "things". I was being facetious, but very truthful. I can draw and shoot in about 1.5 seconds. Did CQB (and other fun things) in SpecOps training at Hurlburt Field, so I can handle practically any firearm.

I did Kuntao and Kali in the PI. Lots of knife and stick stuff. So I gots that going for me. I do a real Karatejutsu, and we practice on disarms and such. So there's that.

I have done GJJ/CJJ for 5+ years now. Did lots of self-defense and weapons defense in privates with Ryron Gracie at Gracie Torrance. Now you're understanding things.

I thought your initial post was pretty good, so I told folks to listen to what you were saying. Don't get a big head. There are PLENTY of people who know and can do more. Take the compliment and run smiling. You never know who it could be from and what they know.

[Aslan]

Good, was not slamming you on the weapons things - you'd be surprised (or maybe not) on how many people think that having a CCW makes them prepared.

You're way ahead of about 99% of the people. I just didn't know your background and was trying to point out to a lay person a way to have reality set in. (I made a bad assumption & apologuise)

I also have a background in Kuntao Silat, and have practiced both weapons retention and disarms.

My draw time is way slow right now, due to lack of practice. (right now just balancing between work, family & Kung Fu)

I'm hopefully not exhibiting a big ego (at least not any bigger than normal), and if I came accross arogant, that was not my intent.

Later:D

[SanSoo Student]

The question I would have to ask is....are you serious about the 1v3 or 1v2.
Are you willing to cripple someone?
If you gouge out someone's eyes and break a few ribs, are you willing to do the time in jail?
Only a judge can decide if you used excessive force, even if the robbers had weapons.

[TzuChan]

If the robber has a gun, then believe me if you have a witness you will not go to jail for hurting the dude's eye sight =/ And no this is a 'what if' senario, like 'what if america nukes saddam' =/ If you punch his head through the wall with one strike when he's holding a knife, while you are just in defence of his strikes, you will not have anything to worry about (if witnesses), that's just the law in my country, more then fair. If you happen to keep pounding on his head even if he had a weapon, then you're fuxored. But the law in US and Belgium are extremely different, in my country the law strives for justice, in the US it strives for speed and verbal skills of your lawyer =/ Here you are GUILTY untill proven INNOCENT, which is a huge difference, if you would know anything about it. BUT there is a difference in defending yourself in a way to KILL him, or to DISARM/GET AWAY =/ And in my country you will not go to jail for breaking a dude's ribs in self-defence either =/

[SanSoo Student]

If a person had a gun the judge in the US would agree, but if the 2-3 people had only small knives, and you cripple/maim all three of them by blinding them or executing severe breaks: a judge in the US would have to send you to jail. But my master always said," I rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6."
And I would agree if the time came that I would have to kill them to ensure my survival I would not hesistate to take that person's life.

[HuangKaiVun]

"Quick Knockout" = knee to face, punch to groin, etc . . .

This shouldn't have been hard to figure out.

[Fred Sanford]

but if the 2-3 people had only small knives, and you cripple/maim all three of them by blinding them or executing severe breaks: a judge in the US would have to send you to jail.


where do you get this idea? Do you have any knowledge of US law? A gun or a knife are both considered to be the use of DEADLY force, as such all bets are off when it comes to defending yourself.

[No_Know]

TzuChan, punch one while kicking the other. Grab at their arms. they might think your up to something and back off a bit at least. Go from one to the others if you can't see them all in one look. Let them come to you. Move so tthat they line-up. Keep your arms out to get in the way of attacks.

[Ether]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford

where do you get this idea? Do you have any knowledge of US law? A gun or a knife are both considered to be the use of DEADLY force, as such all bets are off when it comes to defending yourself.

IIRC kicking some one with your shoes on is also classified as assault with a deadly weapon in some states. Can anyone confirm this?

[Fred Sanford]

I think I have heard of someone being charged with something like that, but they were repeatedly kicking someone who was down on the ground. Don't know if it's true or not.

But no, if you for example kick someone with a roundhouse kick, I seriously doubt you would get charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

[Liokault]

Case in the UK last week.

security guard tries to stop a robbery where he is working. The 2 robbers have guns and in a struggle the security guard gets shot in the leg, but then takes the gun from a robber and shoots him dead (they still struggling as he shoots i think).

out come..........security guard gets arrested for murder....go figure!!

[Fred Sanford]

if the robber was trying to run away and he shot him in the back, the murder charge might make sense. Since the security guards life was longer in immediate danger.

I don't have any idea how the law works in the UK. I would guess that gun use is probably looked at very unfavorably regardless of circumstances.

[TzuChan]

Look it's pretty simple, like fred says, if it's a my life your life situation, and your attacker gets killed in the situation, then it wasn't your fault. If you have eliminated the threat (for example he falls on the ground) then you should not start kicking him in the head, but run the **** away, otherwise you're assaulting him at that point, and no longer defending. The question is if you have the self-control to let him get away with it that easy

[Liokault]

The UK law that applies to this situation is that you can only use so much force as is nessicary to protect your self and at a level which is relevant to the situation.

So the guard will have to prove that:

1/the only way to protect him self was to shoot the robber.

2/that the robber was trying to kill him their by making killing the robber the correct level of response.

3/ that if he stoped struggling with the robbers and let him go that his life would still be in danger.

[Fred Sanford]

The UK law that applies to this situation is that you can only use so much force as is nessicary to protect your self and at a level which is relevant to the situation.

That sounds about the same as my understanding of US law.

In the UK you are presumed guilty until proved innocent though, right? Opposite of US law, innocent until proven guilty.

[Ludeviews]

Nope innocent till proven guilty over here too.

We don't live in the middle ages anymore!!

You can justify a pre-emptive strike too in the eyes of the law if you fear for your safety and the agressor moves towards you or a weapon etc..

[Chen Zen]

To take on two or three people you need only to hurt one really bad. Break his knee cap or ankle with a side kick. After that his friends should back off if not then Strikes to the throat groin fingers to the eye. Jointlocks like wrists can easily break bones quickly. In other words be more violent and brutal than the best Kung Fu movie you have ever seen:)

[TheGhostDog]

Go to this this for a 4 on 1 video that shows what you should do: attack the wings !

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_goto.asp?id=6

[Chen Zen]

Excellent! Thanx!

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford


That sounds about the same as my understanding of US law.

In the UK you are presumed guilty until proved innocent though, right? Opposite of US law, innocent until proven guilty.
No I'm 100% certain, that in UK it's Innocent untill proven guilty, that's what's wrong with your judicial system (not that ours is perfect or something!) but I mean that's the biggest complaint you read about in Law books etc.. Your lawyers (barristers?) will just look for evidence that will make the jury doubt and make them acquit you, and there is no Juge d'instruction, which sucks, cause that way lawyers can withold evidence, with our system there is an actual judge with a team that looks for all the evidence, sure it's alot slower then UK/Common Law system, but it's alot safer if you ask me. Just to make sure you understand ;)