Shaolin Tiger and other San Shou folks

[FatherDog]

I'm curious about the San Shou style side kick. I was under the impression that your basic fighting stance in San Shou resembles a boxing stance, and all the other styles that I've seen do side kicks do them in manners that seem like they'd be kind of awkward from that position. Could you describe how the San Shou side kick works, mechanically?

[apoweyn]

Fatherdog,

Not a sanshou guy myself, but I'll be interested to hear this myself, since I tend to use a boxing stance myself, and haven't quite figured out how the sidekick fits into that scenario.

In the meantime, check out www.marvinperry.org. He's a well-regarded sanshou fighter who throws a lot of sidekicks. There are fight clips on his site that might start to answer your question.


Stuart B.

[ShaolinTiger00]

FD,

Stance, - generally a modified boxer's stance, but remember we're combining striking and grappling, so a san shou "stance" is very transitional. You can go from being in an orthodox stance throwing a jab and suddenly have to sprawl to nullify a shoot.

The sidekick. good - powerful and hard to catch. bad - hard to follow with most conventional attacks.

How does it work mechnically? I imagine like every other bipedal creature. I throw a jab to hide my intentions from his reaction, pull my thigh & knee up to my stomach, across my body and FIRE that kick like a piston and quickly retract. Sometimes as I fire the leg out, I spring forward with the support leg if I need to cover distance. A sidekick can cover a lot of distance between two people, and covering the distance to him safely is exactly what I want to do to clinch and throw.

I'd say that my most common followup would be another sidekick. Sounds silly but most of the time the first time he'll be suprised, but he'll try to move closer. He doesn't expect another powerful stab to immediately follow. A good following hand technique would be another jab (gives you time to get set again) or a lead hook.



sanshou clips (http://members.tripod.com/shaolinwushu/movies.htm)

Click on these links esp. Marvin Perry, Albert Pope and see it in application.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not sure I understand you guys.

How do you see the problem firing the sidekick from an orthodox stance? Maybe Its something I just "do" and don't think about..

You don't want to fight standing square to him. and you don't want to be standing perpendicular to him.

What are you going to do?

I don't overly concern myself with stance because it's all about mobility. being defensive, while trying to control you're opponent.

I might start out orthodox. but when the gap comes, start to stand more square for a better base.

[fa_jing]

I'm no expert but I do throw side kicks from a stance resembling a boxer's--

For a front - leg side kick with no step:
As you bring your leg up to chamber you automatically pivot. Depending on range you might pivot dynamically on the toes, or if it's close turn your back foot on the heel as you lean back and then complete the chambering of the leg Personally I don't use a full pivot. I remember an interesting variation from TKD where you slide forward as you bring your leg up, to put yourself in range.

I usually prefer the step up side kick, which gains you distance and momentum. The back foot basically replaces the front foot as you move forward and again, is already pivotted.

Then there's the step-behind side kick - should need no further explaination.

Then the side kick off the rear leg - open the front foot and spin your body foward fast, bringing the rear knee through the center and thrusting forward with the momentum of your body.

Finally, I chamber the kick, but not to the extreme like a TKD guy.

[apoweyn]

well, i don't really think there's anything particularly tricky about throwing a sidekick from a more open stance, beyond the fact that when i learned to throw the sidekick, and when i trained to throw the sidekick, it was from a more sideon stance. that's all.

there is sort of an extra step from a more squared stance though. the kicking foot has to cross your centerline and then get thrown back out rather than just coming up and out. if you're comfortable with the sidekick, it's not really a profound difference. but, regardless, it's different from how i originally learned the maneuver.

still, at the end of the day, it could be as simple as keeping a more sideon stance at long range, a more squared stance at shorter range, and a lower, more balanced stance still in grappling range, like you mentioned (shaolintiger) when you were teaching me those throws.

transitory 'stance' is about right.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

whatis really tricky is, when discussing sanshou you can squeeze in as many 'myself's as you can, for instance -

"Not a sanshou guy myself, but I'll be interested to hear this myself, since I tend to use a boxing stance myself, and haven't quite figured out how the sidekick fits into that scenario."

Only 3,which shows Ap is on his way to being a real sanshou man! Now if he could just throw that side kick comfortably! ;)

[red5angel]

Is that a "standard" boxing stance Marvin is in when he fires those side kicks?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by red5angel
whatis really tricky is, when discussing sanshou you can squeeze in as many 'myself's as you can, for instance -

"Not a sanshou guy myself, but I'll be interested to hear this myself, since I tend to use a boxing stance myself, and haven't quite figured out how the sidekick fits into that scenario."

Only 3,which shows Ap is on his way to being a real sanshou man! Now if he could just throw that side kick comfortably! ;)

b-stard. :)

[ShaolinTiger00]

First off Marvin has taken the sidekick to a new level.

When I first saw him fight he almost used it exclusively to defeat people. It controled the distance and they couldn't get close to him if they wanted to. Marvin is very flexible and very powerful. It was tough to know that he was in your weight division. Here was a guy that was almost "a one trick pony" - but nobody could stop his trick!!:D

From Marvin's website: if you look at the 8.5M clip of his '97 fight you see what I'm talking about. Also note the ease that he changes from an orthodox stance to a side stance and after the kick is fired can remain ready for another sidekick. (Marvin has long legs) and his roundhouses are great too.


Check out the 4.59M clip of kungfu Superstar (my sifu is the ref w/ white shirt black pants
:) )

you can see other examples of how to transition into a sidekick for us normal human beings.

[SanShou Guru]

Ok it is true that Marvin is a freak but ironically I keep trying to talk him into modify his side kick so it hits more like a piston (Fa-jing) and less like a battering ram but he just says he likes to push people back with it. He kills with his Round kick. He was handing out whuppin’s last Wednesday. It was fun but frustrating, landed a nice hook on him but that was about it. I’m just glad he knows not to break his toys.

In the Kung Fu Super Star Clip ST mentioned Albert Pope (one of Marvin’s teammates) throws some picture perfect sidekicks from both legs including the KO. If you are fighting a Boston San Shou Team fighter you should expect to see them.

I made those clips for Marvin’s page and we are working on a new page and it will have some more clips including technique specific clips (I have about 1000 San Shou Matches on tape going back to 1991 World Championships).

[red5angel]

ST - I can't find the clip with your sifu in it...

Ap - sorry man, I coudln't help myself!


I watched that clip with Marvin and he keeps his opponent under control but our of range really well with that side kick!

[ShaolinTiger00]

ST - I can't find the clip with your sifu in it...

LOL. chances are if you're looking at a U.S. sanshou clip Mike Barry was the ref. (if he wasn't my sihing Gary Utterback was..) Marvin's amateur highlight clip has them both.

but since we're being specific to Marvin's site.

left row, bottom.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Guru, please e-mail me: william_easlick@hotmail.com

I lost your addy and had a few questions.

[No_Know]

"I imagine like every other bipedal creature. I throw a jab to hide my intentions from his reaction, pull my thigh & knee up to my stomach, across my body and FIRE that kick like a piston and quickly retract."

I might use a jab as the primary attack.

How's your balance if they come in when you kick--rebound? (not that anyone has ever made it that far).

Also, I seem to prefer to face, face, body and feet towards the other person.