Rare KUng Fu courses Only $160,000 (I kid you not)

[Nick Monticello]

http://www.dokungfu.com/page11.html

[Serpent]

Hop Jen also has over 40 years experience and Chinese government credentials, as well as temple certification.


And we all know how trustworthy that would be!



5. Distance skills (remote energy) without contact to defeat opponent up to twenty feet away.


And there's the clincher.

Man, $160,000!

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

Since 1949 this is only the second time this course has been offered.

Could it be:

"Because I got arrested and just got out of Jail" or something similar.

Wonder what the price was like 54yrs ago???

[Brad]

Man, for that kind of money you could just buy the frickin' temple this guy learned in...

Noticed this at the bottom:

Cloud Forest Chin Woo Martial Arts Association
4825 Country Club Road
Winston-Salem, NC 27104

Chin Woo my @ss. Wouldn't using the Chin Woo name be very much illegal?! Some sort of copyright infringment? Is there someone we should notify?

[Chang Style Novice]

It only takes one...

[Fred Sanford]

only $13,333 a month where do I sign up?

what a load of bs, these are the kind of peeps that should be put out of business. Looks like a scam to me.

[joedoe]

Send me half that and I can teach you the same stuff. Honest :D

[Royal Dragon]

Don't even get me started on that guy.

[joedoe]

You know them?

[Royal Dragon]

Unfortunetly.

Look on my forum.

http://www.anyboard.net/rec/royaldragontaitzu/index.html

http://www.anyboard.net/rec/royaldragontaitzu/posts/145.html

http://www.anyboard.net/rec/royaldragontaitzu/posts/167.html

On the Dragon's Dungeon

http://www.anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/451.html


http://www.anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/434.html

Look for Gator and Wei Wu Both are this guy or his agents.

[joedoe]

Care to elaborate?

[Lisa]

"10. The candidate will receive many titles including Senior, Master, and Military titles from the former Han-Lin Imperial Academy."

"12. Upon completion of the apprenticeship you will receive a Ms.D. (Doctorate of Metaphysics degree)"


For $20 I'll give you whatever titles or degrees you want, and you don't even have to do the course.

[Royal Dragon]

look at the edit of my above post.

Lets just say I bumped into him during my Tai tzu research and found him teaching Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua and "calling" it the secret internal Tai tzu.

He called up Sifu Abel's teacher and tried to start trouble with him once because Abel posted a public statement that he does not recognise him as the head of all Tai Tzu and certianly not head of his line.

Part of that war is on my fourms.

[Laughing Cow]

Look for Gator and Wei Wu Both are this guy or his agents.

Wonder if "Wei Wu" is related to Poster "wuwei" over here??

We had a few rather odd additions here recently.

[Nick Monticello]

http://www.dokungfu.com/college/page4.html

http://www.dokungfu.com/individual.html

[SevenStar]

Are you all trying to imply that this guy isn't legit? :D

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Are you all trying to imply that this guy isn't legit? :D

To be honest that idea never crossed my mind.

:p:D:p

[joedoe]

Thanks for that. Interesting reading :)

[Nick Monticello]

$160,000??? Are you kididng?? Do YOU think he's legit.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Are you all trying to imply that this guy isn't legit? :D

He's as legit as you, bro.































































:p

[SevenStar]

I'm legit, just look at my post count :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Nick Monticello
$160,000??? Are you kididng?? Do YOU think he's legit.

He charges that because he's quality. Can't get that good training for pennies, ya know?

[David]

I, Supreme-Ultimate Centurion David Ms.D did the course in 1949. It was great though it rained a lot at the secret temple.

Still, musn't grumble - the longevity herbs worked wonders - it's 53 years later and I'm still only 31!

$160K? I paid half that but it's worth twice what they're asking now.

rgds,
Supreme-Ultimate Centurion David Ms.D

[Internal Boxer]

One of the requirements that made me laugh was:

... Must not have a background of mental instability

I would have thought being a nutter was a must if he wants people to cough up $160k for that sh.it :rolleyes:

[dezhen2001]

hey isnt there somehting wrong with the geography in this pic?click here (http://www.dokungfu.com/martialarts/img65.jpg) :confused:

dawood

[dezhen2001]

i didnt know tibet was so far away from china! didnt know the USA invded Tibet when searhcing for osama LOL! :D

dawood

[Losttrak]

lol@David :D

[Shah]

"He also holds a BS degree in Music Production and Marketing from Appalachian State University. "

I'd say all of his degrees are pretty BS :D

This guys just about as respectable as a pet psyciatrist

[Nick Monticello]

Emperor's Long Fist Curriculum





Chao Kuang-yin, founder and ruler of the Sung Dynasty from 960-976 A.D. reunited war torn China following the division of the Five Dynasties. He also brought an end to the militarism, which characterized China during that era.





Chao Kuang-yin was a celebrated scholar, who had a keen interest in the martial arts. He is credited with being the first in Chinese history to comprehensively collect and document all available information, which he kept hidden in a library in a tower behind the Temple. The tower was eventually destroyed and the manuscripts were scattered.





The Emperor Tai-tzu created his own complete system, which encompassed health and self defense; he called his art Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, which means Great Ancestor's Long Fist or more commonly known as the Emperor's Long Fist. This system is so uniquely composed that it covers all aspects of Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, and Ba Kua, which are the original internal systems of Northern China. Tai tzu is the root from which most northern styles originated and since the southern styles originated from the north, the southern styles of martial arts stem from Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well. Grandmaster Kash inherited this system from Grandmaster Chao Yuh Feng who was one of the last direct blood descendants from the Emperor Chao Kuang-Yin.





Five Family Fist Curriculum





Grandmaster Wong Ark-Yuey was born in 1899 in a large village near Canton, Southern China. In those days bandits were roaming the countryside and Master Wong's Grandfather made all males in the Wong family study kung fu if they were to receive any inheritance. Wong started at the age of seven (in 1906)within the Shao Lin Temple. He first studied under the very respected masters Lam Ark-Fun and Ho Yeng, then later under the chief Monk of Canton, Pang. Sifu Wong explained that the Cantonese pronunciation of "Siu Lam" (sometimes seen as Sil Lum) is the same as the more popular term Shao Lin, as in Shao Lin Temple boxing. Master Wong studied within the Guantong Branch of the Shao Lin Temple for twenty-two years before he was allowed to leave and became a master of kung fu. He was always justifiably proud of the fact that in order to leave the temple he had to defeat 100 opponents one after the other before passing his test.





The Five Family Fist system was the main system taught within the temples since 650 A.D. in the Fukien Temple. This system was passed from Grandmaster Wong Ark-Yueh to the now senior student Grandmaster David E. Kash who trained with Master Wong starting in 1967 up until his death in 1987.

[Royal Dragon]

>>Emperor's Long Fist Curriculum





>>Chao Kuang-yin, founder and ruler of the Sung Dynasty from 960-976 A.D. reunited war torn China following the division of the Five Dynasties. He also brought an end to the militarism, which characterized China during that era.

Reply]
True




>>Chao Kuang-yin was a celebrated scholar, who had a keen interest in the martial arts. He is credited with being the first in Chinese history to comprehensively collect and document all available information, which he kept hidden in a library in a tower behind the Temple. The tower was eventually destroyed and the manuscripts were scattered.

Reply]
True



>>The Emperor Tai-tzu created his own complete system, which encompassed health and self defense; he called his art Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, which means Great Ancestor's Long Fist or more commonly known as the Emperor's Long Fist.

reply]
True

>>This system is so uniquely composed that it covers all aspects of Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, and Ba Kua, which are the original internal systems of Northern China.


Reply]
False

>>Tai tzu is the root from which most northern styles originated and since the southern styles originated from the north, the southern styles of martial arts stem from Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as well.

Reply]
Maybe.
Tai Tzu is an ancient Long Fist style prominat during the Sung and Ming dynasties. It was a major part of the Shaolin curriculem and military training during the Ming. Many styles evolved form it, or were influanced by it. That does not mean all. It has both Northern and Southern divisions.


>>Grandmaster Kash inherited this system from Grandmaster Chao Yuh Feng who was one of the last direct blood descendants from the Emperor Chao Kuang-Yin.

Reply]
Possibly.
He certianly does not seem to have any students that even know the basic core sets. Chao Yuh Feng was known to teach alot of Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. I do know one descendant that has some of the actual Tai tzu chang chuan, but I have never conversed with Kash, or any of his direct students that know any of it. They all think the Taiji Hsing I and Bagaua is Tai tzu. Some of them have some Long Fist forms that share names simlar to the Nanjing or Chin woo sets (Lian Bu, Gung Li etc...). They think that is tai tzu too.


As for below, I can't comment. Maybe some Won Ark Whey guys could elaborate on that.

>>Five Family Fist Curriculum





>>Grandmaster Wong Ark-Yuey was born in 1899 in a large village near Canton, Southern China. In those days bandits were roaming the countryside and Master Wong's Grandfather made all males in the Wong family study kung fu if they were to receive any inheritance. Wong started at the age of seven (in 1906)within the Shao Lin Temple. He first studied under the very respected masters Lam Ark-Fun and Ho Yeng, then later under the chief Monk of Canton, Pang. Sifu Wong explained that the Cantonese pronunciation of "Siu Lam" (sometimes seen as Sil Lum) is the same as the more popular term Shao Lin, as in Shao Lin Temple boxing. Master Wong studied within the Guantong Branch of the Shao Lin Temple for twenty-two years before he was allowed to leave and became a master of kung fu. He was always justifiably proud of the fact that in order to leave the temple he had to defeat 100 opponents one after the other before passing his test.





>>The Five Family Fist system was the main system taught within the temples since 650 A.D. in the Fukien Temple. This system was passed from Grandmaster Wong Ark-Yueh to the now senior student Grandmaster David E. Kash who trained with Master Wong starting in 1967 up until his death in 1987.

[MonkeySlap Too]

It is unfortunate that people don't realize that it is your skill, not your wallpaper that determines your fate.

If you want to be important, excel at your art. Demonstrate it in traditional Taolu and free fighting, and if you really are that great, you will be recognized by your peers.

Too many people get it in thier heads to train for 'rank', as if that really means something. Come to think of it, that whole web-site seemed a little 'rank' if you know what I mean. What are they really selling for that much money? Do they have the rep to back it up?

Inquiring minds want to know. Especially in todays world where a plethora of good information is readily available...

[David]

Will you never learn?

It takes dedication to become Supreme-Ultimate Centurion.

Perhaps you lack true dedication.

Yours,
Supreme-Ultimate Centurion David Ms.D

[Oso]

They all think the Taiji Hsing I and Bagaua is Tai tzu. Some of them have some Long Fist forms that share names simlar to the Nanjing or Chin woo sets (Lian Bu, Gung Li etc...). They think that is tai tzu too.

not all, just most. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

LOL@ OSO!! :eek:

[Nick Monticello]

. Taoist Natural Fist (Highest level of internal fighting including use of "remote" skills)





4. Internal power cultivation including 15 levels of Iron Palm and 83 extraordinary skills.





5. Distance skills (remote energy) without contact to defeat opponent up to twenty feet

Nick sez------>(?????????????)


9. Will be included in the genealogy from 618 A.D. undergoing the traditional disciple ceremony and later on be inducted with an inheritor ceremony.





10. The candidate will receive many titles including Senior, Master, and Military titles from the former Han-Lin Imperial Academy.





11. After course is complete candidate will have the authority to teach this system as a direct inheritor of the system.


Nick Sez-------> I did an internet search on the "former Han-Lin Imperial Academy". I found it was a temple that burnt to the ground in the early 1900's, AND the Imperial "Art & Sculpture" school that the Chinese Royal family sent their kid's to to learn to paint, draw and sculpt. No mention of martial arts or military anywhere, just art.

Just thought I'd throw that one out there. :D

[Oso]

but as RD knows this subject ****es me off.

The only legitimate rank that Mr. Prout has is a 1st duan
black sash from my sifu. However, he can't fight. At all. Period.
Nor is he able to teach his students to fight.

Everything else was given to him. The rank he claims in Modern
Arnis is totally false and a black belt in arnis who visited Mr. Prout
to talk about that fact had the cops called on him. So, Mr. Prout
won't (can't) prove any of it in the traditional manner.

[Nick Monticello]

YIKES!! So all that "Fluff" on his site is WORSE than we think?

Oh, How do you know RD?

[dezhen2001]

cool oso didnt know what you trained till now :)

dawood

[Oso]

nick, I just know RD via this crazy place.

Dez, don't associate me to much with those folks.
I 'woke up' in 99 and started looking outside of the
fold a bit for a couple of reasons.

I'm with the rest of the crowd in that there is some decent
kung fu available from Sifu Kash. I just take all the history
etc with a huge grain of salt (so much so my dr. said to cut
my intake otherwise.) It's sad when ego and money start to
run things. As others have said, if he were to just call it what
it is instead of the TZ then it would be ok cuz it's decent stuff.

Well, then there is all the other crap, like that which started this
thread.

my sifu has pretty much broken with Kash and disavowed
Prout as one of his students.

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
One of the requirements that made me laugh was:

... Must not have a background of mental instability

I would have thought being a nutter was a must if he wants people to cough up $160k for that sh.it :rolleyes:

haha made me lmao in class today =)

[rubthebuddha]

this stuff would be far more entertaining if it wasn't ****ing off decent folk like royal and oso.

even so, it's still pretty **** funny. $160,000 -- that stuff makes iron kim and temple kung fu seem like a ****ing bargain.

[dezhen2001]

and with conversion its only £100,000 - spoecial offer for a limited time only :eek::D

dawood

[Amber]

Hi,
Looking at his curriculum, I can't see any Tai Tzu. The Chao family fist only contains the Taiji Ruler, and Chao Yuh Feng added the rest to it.
When are people going to wake up to themselves ? :eek:

[Amber]

Oso, Isn't Prout an inheritor, :eek: ,at first duan.:(
HAhahahahahahahaha.
Did he pay his $160,000.00 ?

Amber

[Oso]

yes, per the website, Prout is an inheritor and Kash has given
him a '4th duan'. But, it's only been like 3 years. What the hell
can you learn in 3 years? ok, a fair amount most places
but not freakin' 'grand googlygookai mastership'

bottom line, Prout won't fight. I heard a rumor just this past
weekend that he got his clock cleaned from a 2 year student
at my sifu's school the last time he actually showed up there.
but, I didn't see it.

[Royal Dragon]

How Long Till Kash starts calling and harassing me again? Just wait till he sees this thread, he's going to POP!!

I wouldn't worry about Prout. Kash made Seibert an Inheritor after only two years. The guy was a lifetime Karateka. Then, after only two years of his first Chinese Kung Fu lesson, he's a 10th Duan Grand Master, and lineage inheritor of the system?? How does THAT happen? TWO FRIK'N YEARS People!!! His studnets admited on KFO he was stil learning the system, and trying hard to be worthy of the title. :rolleyes:

Ok, I'm better now. I just wish he'd stop telling everyon he's teaching Tai Tzu Chang Chaun. He makes all of us look bad.

Amber, I think you're right, the Taiji Ruler is the only Tai Tzu he's got. tecnhically it's a stand alone Qi going system as Li Hu, Ba Fa has it too.

I have never seen any evidence that ANYONE in his camp even knows the correct names for the forms for ANY legit Tai Tzu branch, let alone knows the forms them selves. Then he's got the nerve to go calling The Tai Tzu school in Florida and attempting to get them to subordinate under him? Now $160,000 over three years for a super secret Temple system? He's gone completely daffy. You know, thats like $53,000 a year.

He's not the ruin your life OYD/Chung Moo Doe type, but he definately rates a Temple Kung Fu and getting worse every year.

[Amber]

Royal dragon,
$160,000.00, that works out to over $1000.00 per week.
And is he saying that he can stop an attacker at twenty feet without even touching him ???? LOL......

Amber.:eek:

[dezhen2001]

i hate it when this happens :(

[Chang Style Novice]

Do you hate the bashing or the frauds or both?

I'm not really fond of either, but the frauds brought it on themselves.

[dezhen2001]

both - but people generally get what they deserve.

dawood

[SevenStar]

This is all the more reason why challenges should still be prevalent in the CMA world.

[dezhen2001]

i think marketing and community dojos have kinda taken over dude :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

7* -

Connecting that idea to your thread from earlier this evening, I think it might be an okay arrangement if there were 'levels' of ma schools. And maybe there already are.

Beginners - learn forms, stretching, qigong, conditioning, general fitness. Light sparring, cardio. More or less a health club with a martial arts feel. No claims about self-defense are made, implicitly or explicitly.

Advanced - It's assumed you show up fit and ready to go. Drilling techniques constantly, full contact sparring at least once a week.

Expert - for the pros, more or less anyone who can't afford a personal coach/trainer but aspires to be a prizefighter in whatever format. I don't know what would distinguish this from advanced precisely.

The thing is, since my only experience is in a tai chi place where the teacher trained under a genuine well-known badass but doesn't like the students going at it full on, I don't know how other places work. Maybe what I've described above is standard. I have no idea.

[SevenStar]

levels of schools, or levels within the school?

[SevenStar]

nevermind, I got ya. But, who would make the classifications?

[desertwingchun2]

Super Secret $160,000 Kung Fu

Application for training - free

Super secret kung fu training - $160,000

The look on the guys face when he realized he was ripped off - Priceless

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by SevenStar
This is all the more reason why challenges should still be prevalent in the CMA world. mighty big words from a wuss who does brazilian and japanese arts. :mad: your scrawny BMA and JMA ass is off the hook. :mad:










;)

[SevenStar]

hehe. Exactly. I get to just sit back and watch you guys fight.

[rubthebuddha]

wuss ;)

[Oso]

seven, I agree. I'd probably still do it but he's already proven
he'll just call the cops. And after that, he hasn't stepped foot
out of winston to visit any of the rest of us.

I guess I don't have a beef cuz I don't claim any rank under Kash
(though it was offered) and Mr Prout is only claiming the first
duan he got under my sifu. I don't think he'd be dumb enough
to try and claim more than that.


dez, I'm only bashing this hard because I personally know what's
going on.

[dezhen2001]

i know buddy - i just hate that this would happen in the first place :(

dawood

[Oso]

and yea, RD, I expect some flack for this as well.


:rolleyes:

Luckily, they can't fight.:)

[dezhen2001]

LOL! just lay it all out there :D

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

OSO, Who's This Taoist Preist he's got teaching the system?

Is Hop Jen (He Ren in Mandarin) Kash's Temple name? If not, who is Hop Jen?

Everything that guy does is so hokey, I wonder if he really was in a temple as a youth. Seibert's site was claiming he was a Shaolin Monk for a wile. I KNOW that can't be true. Shaolin was nothing but ruins when he was a youth.

[Nick Monticello]

Look What I found in a Google search (Search Tai tzu Chang Chuan, Check the cached page)


A SPECIAL NOTE ON TAI TZU CHANG CHUAN- This system has been legally copyrighted. Under the copyright is the entire Chao Family Sung Tai Tzu Chang Chuan system. This was copyrighted in the United States and was registered in China and was authenticated by Chao Yuh Feng the 35th Patriarch, David E. Kash the ONLY 36th Patriarch, and the Republic of China. We are in possesion of these legal documents. There is only one man other than David Kash who is alive with the entire system. This can be documentally proven. At his request this name is being kept secret, but we do know his name and who he is training. If there is anyone else claiming Sung Tai Tzu Chang Chuan training through Chao Yuh Feng and do not have written permission from this association from teaching the system then they will be held legally accountable.

[Oso]

dez, well, I've another story about Mr. Prout that showed me all
I needed to know about his knowledge but I've said enough.

RD, I'd rather not voice my conjecture and opinion about Sifu Kash
I'm not a part of his direct circle so I don't know. I do know about
Mr. Prout so that's why I've said what I've said. You also know
the little story about Mr. Seibert's test. So, evidently he's not too
shabby in the mix if they needed someone else to come in and
spar with him for his test. But, I do have the opinion of some
karate people on Mr. Seibert as well.;)

Nick, that's just off of their website. I don't see a copyright
symbol anywhere nor a copyright number....but, that's RD's
fight not mine.

[Nick Monticello]

I'm guessing there is no copywrite. How do you copywrite a 1000 year old art? It would have fallen into public domain by now.

[Oso]

nick, you can copyright anything if it is not public domain
as you have stated or it is not already copyrighted.

I think you would have a hard time copyrighting 'karate' or
'kung fu' but as long as a check for previous copyrighting of
"Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" came up nill then it would probably be
approved. Then no one else could use the name. You could
then copyright any text (such as a school handbook) and the
exact wording of that text could not be used. But, I'm by no
means a copyright lawyer so I could be mistaken.

[Empty Fist]

This guy has been smoking too many of his herbs.

[Royal Dragon]

I just don't think it would hold up in court if he tried it anyway. Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was public domain in like the Ming dynasty. The General Qi Ji guang wrote about it descending form the Sung dynasty Emperor Chao Kuang Yin (960-978) back in 1544 AD. There are hundreds of tai tzu families world wide. And the name of the style has been written about by too many people. If it ever came down to it, I would submit copies of all my research files as evidence that it is public domain, and has been since at least 1544 AD.

Speaking of Qi Ji Guang, you know the chart of the original 32 move form? It's not the original form. It's the General Qi Jiguang's Tai Tzu form. The original form was developed by the Emperor himself in 960 AD. Qi jiguang documented his in 1544 AD. in his book "Summary of Boxing". That's 584 years after the fact. No way it's original. Suposedly 29 of his 32 postures are Tai Tzu, and the remaining 3 are his own techniques. Of the 29 Tai Tzu postures, it is unknown if they are from the original 32 move form of the Emperor, or just represnative of the Ming dynasty evolution of Tai tzu. It is more accurate to say that set is Qi Jiguang's contribution to Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. To say it is the original form is ludicrias.

[Oso]

RD

how does that figure in with the 36/37 we've talked about before
and the 64??? Is it the same form or a different one?

[Shah]

I think it's contemptible how the martail ART has been dergraded nowadays. It's been so capitalized that it's beginning to llose it's meaning. Like the Shaolin Wheel of Life thing, the monks who are supposed to be practicing or meditating in their monastery have begun to sell themselves to the public. :(

[Royal Dragon]

The 36/37 looks like it's Chen Man Chings 37 move Yang Short form mixed with postures from the 32 move Qi Jigunag set. It's a modern composit Taiji form in my opinion. I have been told the 64 was created by Chao Yuh Feng himself and is just an expansion on the 8 gates. I like both sets personally. The 64 is rooted in the basics, and an excellent introduction to fundemental Taiji Quan. However, that does not make it Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

My guess, is if anything is ancient, it's the 4 & 8 gates. If my source is wrong about the 64, that too may be ancient, just based on it's construction.

Just so you know, the actual Internal Tai Tzu is said to consist of a 32 and 64 move long form that is more similar to the regular Tai Tzu Long Fist sets than the Taiji is. The Liu Yun Chiao set could be considered quasi internal too depending on how you play it.

One of my sources has promised to send me both the internal 32 and the internal 64. When I sent him video of me performing the 64, he couldn't understand what I was doing with the 8 gates, and why I "Changed" it. He was expecting to see the "Real" internal Tai tzu, not some expansion of the basic Taiji Quan drills.

I know the 37 is practiced in Taiwan, so I'm sure it predates Chao Yuh Feng. But still, it has too much modern Yang in it to be very old. I am speculating that Chao Jung Dao created it.

Chao Yuh Feng was trained by Master Lee So Chien in "Wu Tang Ti Pai" (according to Kash's book). I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the so called "Tai tzu" they teach is actually Master Lee's Hsing I, Taiji and Bagua.

To date, I have cataloged a good number of Tai Tzu forms, enough to create two almost complete Tai Tzu systems.

5 Sets from the Southern (One is still being confirmed)

San Zhen
4 doors
Cutting Slice
Whipping Slice (Still to be confirmed)
Yi Lu

Of the Northern:

I have the Charts to work out the Qi Ji Guang 32 move Tai tzu Chang Chuan

1. Shaolin 32 move Tai tzu Chang Chuan (Several sources)
2. The Lui Yun Chiao Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
3. Yi Lu (3 versions, maybe more comming)
4. Er Lu (1 version, but tow more comming)
5. Tai tzu shou Hong Chaun (a short version of form #6)
6. Tai Tzu Hong/Chang Chaun (Still need to confirm which it is I have)
7. Butterfly palms (I suspect thias has another name as well, comfirmation in progess)
8. Tai Tzu Shou Hong Chaun (VERY different than the standard Shaolin, NOT #5 above)
9. Tai Tzu Da Hong Chaun (again VERY different that the standard Shaolin)
10. I have a Malaysian branch of the system. It's a single form taught in 3 sections for the Ong family Lineage. The opening on this one is similar to the Tai Tzu Show Hong Chuan above (#5 & 6).

11. I have 2 Southern Monkey sets.
12. Three forms of Sifu Abel's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, as well as some footage of his Monkey and other sets from his system that are non Tai tzu.

I actually practice The Southern system, mostly San Zhen, but also 4 doors and Cutting slice (The basic sets). I know Yi Lu, but I only play with that one. Of the Northern, I only know and practice Yi Lu (Same name, different form than the Southern Yi Lu). My next mission will be to work out the Qi jiguang set off of the chart, probably in the next month or so.

I currently have video promised to me, including more of the Shaolin Tai tzu Chang Chuan, demos of various sets from different lines, and basic fundementals.

I don't know If I will see all that is currently promised to me, but if I get it all, I should have a good ten years of material to work on, heck I have that much with just what I have. I will have at least one complete documented system.


I posted the above to show that Tai tzu is a rather profound style, and not the Hsing I, Taiji and Bagua as commonly purported here in the US by a certain individual.

[dezhen2001]

oso: check your email! :D

dawood

[Nick Monticello]

LOL @ RD signiture!!!

RD, it sounds like you have done quite a bit of homework on the style. Are you saying the 64 you learned was fake?

[Royal Dragon]

RD, it sounds like you have done quite a bit of homework on the style. Are you saying the 64 you learned was fake?

Reply]
No, it was taught to me as the Taiji Quan 64 move form. BUT, when I was talking to one of my contacts, he thought I was talking about the 64 move internal Long Fist set from Tai tzu Chang Chuan, and I was talking about the 64 move Taiji Quan set. We were talking about two different sets, from two different styles and didn't know it.

See, the Taiji system I practice is often taught along with the Tai tzu in some branches (It's technically not Tai Tzu though, it's Chao style Taiji). So when we were discussing the "Internal" 64, I just assumed he meant the Taiji 64. At the time, I did not know that the Tai tzu ALSO had a 64 move form that is internal. It worked out good, because I learned about a new aspect of the system I had not previously known of. I can't wait to see it. :D

[Amber]

RD,
I found some interesting stuff,


Grand Master Ark Yuey Wong was born in Canton China. He started practing kung fu at the age of seven under 14 masters. Chief Monk Pang, Lam Ark Fun and Ho Yeng gave him the inspiration to completed the training of Five Family/Animal Style. He then earned the master title in a tournament. His uncle taught him Chinese herbal healing and acupuncture after imgrated to America at his early twenties. At that time, kung fu was taught among Chinese and mostly in Chinese tongs and associations. Since Chinese has many festivities and cultural beliefs. The art of lion and dragon dance were taught to accommodate the celebration ritual. Many Chinese benefited from Wong's martial art lessons during the 40's and 50's when he stayed in San Francisco,Stockton and Oakland. He made a decision to teach kung fu to the general public after his relocation to Los Angeles. During his last 30 years profession, many people entered the school. Specially during and after the Bruce Lee kung fu movie era. But only very few had completed the entire course. Grand Master Wong had achieved many accomplishments included as pioneer kung fu instructor to America and contribution to society with his Chinese medicine. Because of his efforts, the Five Family/Animal Style has been prospered worldwide. His grandson Seming Ma is now continuing the tradition.

http://www.kungfu5family.com/arkwong.html

Is this the same Five Animal system that they say they inherited ?
Amber.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, So much for Kash being THE inheritor of Won Ark Whey's lineage. Looks like the Grand Son got it.................Go figure :rolleyes:

[Oso]

a black belt in arnis who visited Mr. Prout
to talk about that fact had the cops called on him.

I have just been informed of several details concerning this incident. I will have to check into it and see if I may have been wrong in judging the situation as I have. The details were provided by someone claiming to have been there that day and a student of the Mr. Prout. We'll see. If I'm wrong I'll admit it.

[rogue]

Complete Internal System Studies for $160,000. Heck my colonoscopy was only $1200.00! And that's as internal as you can get!

[Oso]

yea, it's kinda an old issue but I just got an email from a student of Mr. Prout, defending him. What he said has a ring of truth so I will interrogate some people and find out if I was misinformed.


I still don't think Mr. Prout can fight though.

[tsunami surfer]

If this cat can find just 2 or 3 people to take and pay for this course he would be set for a long time. If I did'nt have a soul I could come up with a get rich scheme like this.

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, if the style is soooo rarrrre, he should be teaching it to the public in hopes of preventing it's extinction.

He's got to be basing his fee's off of a full blown 4 year college tuition or something.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Three forms of Sifu Abel's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, as well as some footage of his Monkey and other sets from his system that are non Tai tzu.




Royal Dragon,

Which forms are you talking about that are non Tai Tzu's?

I know you have the first three of Cheung Kune Pai.Do you have some Bak Sil Lum as well?

jeff:)

[Royal Dragon]

Sifu Abel's curriculem containes some Lau Gar fist, and I believe his teacher trains them all in Bei Shaolin prior to getting them into the Cheung Kune Pai (Southern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan). You'd have to ask him to be sure.

Although I know his Monkey is predominantly from the Tai Tzu family, I think he's explored some Tai Shing Pekwar as well. I don't know if he teaches any of it, again, you'd have to ask him.

His lineage is the most authentic and complete Tai Tzu line in the US that I know of. Mine is more of a "Mad sampler" of Tai Tzu lineages from everywhere. My Southern Tai Tzu Quan is the most complete that I have, and includes a set that is suposed to be closed door in some lineages. I'm only missing one set (the two man) of the core system, but I have drills derived from it.

I know you have the first three of Cheung Kune Pai

Actually, I have 4. It turns out his Mantis sets are Tai Tzu after all. I can see the sets core essense in the Long Form in certain places. If I had to take a guess, I'd think I'd say that at some point in time, that set was upgraded with the mantis hand, where the orginal techniques were done in a Crane hand, other than that, the techniques in it are found through out the long form. Right now, I have two sections of the Long form, from one lineage, and 3 different sections from another Lineage, there is said to be 16 sections total, 32-64 moves each.

It looks like the original Tai tzu was two sets, the orginal 32, and the long form. The Long form was broken down into sections, and the style was taught like Kyu Yu Cheong's Bei Shaolin. Only today, I don't think many lineages know this, so the forms are never recombined into their original order and done strait through as one long form any more. I found one lineage that teaches the Long form in order, and the last move of each form is the first move of the next, and I know another that has it complete, so that it two so far. Unfortunetly, the likely hood of me ever getting the whole thing is pretty slim as I'd have to learn Chinese, and move to China to study it. I'm trying to get a contact I have to get me footage of the whole thing.......we will see how it goes.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Sifu Abel's curriculem containes some Lau Gar fist, and I believe his teacher trains them all in Bei Shaolin prior to getting them into the Cheung Kune Pai (Southern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan). You'd have to ask him to be sure.



Royal Dragon,

You are correct we do learn some Lau Gar Fist ,and Bak Sil Lum before we learn Cheung Kune Pai.You know that Cheung Kune Pai is an advanced system and a person needs some foundation in kung fu before learning it.

We actually only learn Two Cheung Kune Pai forms prior to reaching Black Sash level.

Sifu Abel as well as Sifu Gus his teacher. Were my teachers in learning Bak Sil Lum and Cheung Kune Pai.I do plan to return to finnish my Cheung Kune Pai training in the future.Right now i'm deep into my Black Tiger training.

jeff:)

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, The Cheun Kune Pai is like the Northern. It's never taught as a first system. Traditionally, The Ruling Chao family sent thier children to the Shaolin Temple for training. Since they already had a fondation by the time they graduated, there was never any need to create a foundational curriculem for the style (originally).

In the Southern Sung dynasty, the Chao family created (most likely just ordered it created) a basic short fist system that many Tai Tzu schools teach whole or in part prior to the Northern tai tzu today. It contains 6 short forms, and you can learn to fight pretty quick with it. There are also 2 more advanced sets generally taught only to those who wish to specialise in the Short system.

For me, if I ever teach again, I would teach the 6 core Southern sets first, followed by the first level of my Shaolin system as that has all the fundemental skills, exercises, and line drills etc... used by the Northern & Southern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that are not covered by the short Southern system. Then, It would be the Shaolin 32 and then Long form, followed by the internal starting with Taiji Ruler.

IF, I ever get proficient enough with the Southern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and I get permission to teach it, I may teach one Northern, and One Southern set at a time. I don't know how that would work though, I'd have to give it some deeper thought first.

I would like to propagate it all, but that's too much on a single plate. I may offer the choice, intro both systems by teaching the first few sets from each, and let the student decide which to specialise in. It's a long way off before I do that though, and I have to finnish rebuilding my health still. Because of my back, I haven't been doing much more than research and memorising routines for the last 2 years. Everything else has been back therapy, or Chao style Taiji Quan.

[jmd161]

You could do like my Black Tiger Si Gung ,and teach A third to each of you inner core students?

Black Tiger is so large that he felt it was too much to leave to just one person.Too much to remember.

just a thought .

jeff:)

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! Yeah, maybe. But I have to learn it all first.

[cha kuen]

No amount of $$ can give you any kung fu skills unless you are willing to work for it.

[Royal Dragon]

Unless you have $160,000 :D

[African Tiger]

I'm a little confused. Both of these gentlemen claim to have been trained by Ark Yuey Wong - which incidentally would put him into my own lineage - but their school is in North Carolina. Ark Yuey Wong, to my knowledge, never left Los Angeles to train anyone.

WTF??? :confused:

[Oso]

AT, as far as I am aware Sifu Kash was in California till a move to the east coast in the early to mid 90's.

[Royal Dragon]

Won Ark Whey's people say he was just a priviate student. Apparently he wasn't very noteable, but was there for a spell worming around in the background.

You should call him and ask about his history, it will open your eyes!!....................:rolleyes:

[Nick Monticello]

It looks like this post has had an effect on Ca$h *cough* I mean Kash. He's changed his site a bit

http://www.dokungfu.com/page11.html

http://www.dokungfu.com/tkaa/class_prices

It's apparently and "Affiliate" program now offered through a "Freind" affiliated with his organisation.

If what this guy has is so frik'n rare, he needs to be teaching it on a wider scale so it does not die out. Of course in Chinese, "Rare" often means just made up, so maybe it does not matter.

Hey, what's the deal with this Prout guy?

He has been presented with a special certificate authorizing instruction in the Shao Lin Martial Arts by the head of the International Shao Lin Wu Shu General Committee in China, Guo Quan-Shou, who is President of the Honan Shao Lin Temple College in China (This is THE Original Shao Lin Temple in China). There are very few in the U.S.A presented with such a certificate authorizing true Shao Lin instruction on an international level, in fact, it is extremely rare.

Can anyone explain this? Who is Guo Quan-Shou? And what is the Shaolin Temple College? Does he mean the Shaolin Whu Shu Guan? Or another school near Shaolin??

Gene? anyone?

He also has the title of Chuan Lu (conferred upon masters and one of four titles in the martial arts curriculum) from the former Han Lin Imperial Academy of Beijing.

Didn't we already establish the Han Lin academy was an art institue that burnt down in the early 1900's? Also, it says "Former", as in "does not exist anymore". How can you be issued a title to an organisation that no longer exists? Does this guy just make it up as he goes along??