what if I grow old? where is the power?

[Phenix]

25 years ago, I never belive I will grow old.
Now I am in middle ages, soon I will be 70 years old.
so, where will my power come from? how is my speed?
will WCK still effective to defense myself?

What do you think?

[planetwc]

Heh heh. Welcome to the club.

Youth is wasted on the young.

While our ability to absorb and heal from punishment in sparring etc. decreases with age, we can compensate by having better skills and a database of hands/incoming energy.

We have to be about whole body unity, structure, position and timing. Which come from age and experience.

We trade off stamina, cardio, youthfull vigor, and youthfull strength.

So it boils down again to the basics:

Sensitivity
Structure
Position
Timing (seeming faster, but really skill and ingrained reaction)

[kungfu cowboy]

Soon biotechnology will enable us to be fabio clone immortals, forever young and cool like fabio!

[Neurotic]

All I gotta say - there is a guy at our school, he is 78...

Started training when he was 50.

Kicks me right around the room left right and center.

Thats all I'm sayin.

Neurotic

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by Phenix
25 years ago, I never belive I will grow old.
Now I am in middle ages, soon I will be 70 years old.
so, where will my power come from? how is my speed?
will WCK still effective to defense myself?

What do you think?

It will come from proper structure and connection with the ground, and precision of your hits. This is not karate, your ability in WC will increase with age, not decrease.

[Repulsive Monkey]

thats why you should of crossed over to Taiji years ago mate!!

[yuanfen]

Nah- repulsive monkey- wing chun grows better with age.

[anerlich]

forever young and cool like fabio

Now THAT's an oxymoron.

As you get old, your power, speed reaction time WILL decrease. Eventually, you will die.

Deal with it already.

[kungfu cowboy]

Try telling that to fabio.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phenix
25 years ago, I never belive I will grow old.
Now I am in middle ages, soon I will be 70 years old.
so ...


where will my power come from?

Where does your power come from now? Is it any less or is it just different than when you were younger?

... how is my speed?

What kind of speed?

... will WCK still effective to defense myself?

Is it effective now? Was it effective as a younger man?

Who can tell the future?

-David

[fa_jing]

WCK is good for a variety of body types - but I'm not old yet, why would I be concerned with training as if I was an old man? I'm 28 now, is it necessary to change my fighting style based on my abilities at 65? Couldn't I easily wait until I'm about 57 to start training to be able to defend myself qt age 65 and beyond? Is fighting like a 65 year-old necessarily the best way to fight, even for a 28 year old? Shouldn't I be taking advantage of my youthful athleticism? Something is missing in this arguement.

-FJ

[canglong]

Something is missing in this arguement. FJ

Yes, In WCK we are not taught how to generate power we are shown where power resides and then how to retrieve it. When shown the path to the river you will always have a place to drink.

[KPM]

I have long thought that had Bruce Lee lived to be an old man and his natural God-given talent and abilities began to be affected by age, he would have come full circle back to his WCK roots.

Keith

[Phenix]

Originally posted by fa_jing
WCK is good for a variety of body types - but I'm not old yet, why would I be concerned with training as if I was an old man? I'm 28 now, is it necessary to change my fighting style based on my abilities at 65? Couldn't I easily wait until I'm about 57 to start training to be able to defend myself qt age 65 and beyond? Is fighting like a 65 year-old necessarily the best way to fight, even for a 28 year old? Shouldn't I be taking advantage of my youthful athleticism? Something is missing in this arguement.

-FJ

Sure, but then by your are 40+ your internal organs might be not as strong as the people who pretrain with age less dependent art.

There is a different between forcing qi to Dan Tien and sink qi to Dan Tien. The hard way and the gradual way.... big different for internal organs.

[anerlich]

I seem to remember from my neijia days something about Xingyi being for young people, beacuase it can be as hard as a fist of diamond, and taiji for the old. fa_jing, you could be right.

WC IMO is not a system of physical culture, though hopefully it's better for you than drinking beer and eating doritos in front of the tube.

IMO, spending your youth worrying too much about your health in old age is to miss the best part of it. Stupid risks like smoking unsafe sex and recreational drugs aside, though I'm no angel there either :D

There's no evidence IMO that WC guys or any other MA guys, or people that practice qigong necessarily live longer than anyone else, or have a better quality of life in old age than anyone else who does regular exercise.

Is there?

[kj]

Originally posted by fa_jing
WCK is good for a variety of body types - but I'm not old yet, why would I be concerned with training as if I was an old man? I'm 28 now, is it necessary to change my fighting style based on my abilities at 65? Couldn't I easily wait until I'm about 57 to start training to be able to defend myself qt age 65 and beyond? Is fighting like a 65 year-old necessarily the best way to fight, even for a 28 year old? Shouldn't I be taking advantage of my youthful athleticism? Something is missing in this arguement.

-FJ

Touché.

There is also another way of thinking about it. If one waits till they are 57, for example, they may not have enough youth left to sufficiently develop what he or she needs or wants at 65 and beyond.

"Old man's" skill (of the substantive sort) is that which is built over the course of a lifetime, and likely (IMHO), through the successive stages of that lifetime. It's the nature of the skill that makes the difference, not the age of the fighter. It is all those years of experience and growth combined with suitability to the body in its current and ever changing state. There are lots of people - of all ages - salivating for the ability to fight like some "old men."

There's an issue of balance and optimization of what you can do today, with what you can maintain and achieve over time. It is possible that reliance on youthful athleticism will leave the practitioner one day both without youthful athleticism and "old man skill."

In this context, contemplating "old man skills" in a young man's body gives new dimension to the adage "youth is wasted on the young," LOL.

Just a different way of thinking about it. Life offers no fail-safes; we all pays our money and takes our chances.

All of this of course begs the question, what are "young man" and "old man" kinds of skill respectively?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ng Mui]

A 70 year old man with knowledge of Wing Chun will have a better chance in unarmed combat, than the same man with the without the skill.
Wing Chun makes you the best you can be, and yet, sometimes you at your best cannot beat someone else at their worst.
This has far less to do with growing older, as it does with all the variables in combat.

Be happy, I hope when I am 70 I will still be able to train and teach.

[t_niehoff]

yuenfen writes:

wing chun grows better with age. JC
-------------

anerlich writes:

As you get old, your power, speed reaction time WILL decrease. Eventually, you will die. Deal with it already. AN
-------------

One of WCK's kuen kuit says, "Lien Kuen But Lien Gung, Dao Lao Yat Cheung Hung - if you practice fighting arts without partaking in basic training, you will have nothing when you're old." Developing power, the gung lik, is an absolutely essential part of our 'basic training' in WCK; if you don't develop and obtain substantial power when you are young, i.e., at the early stage of your WCK practice, you won't have it when you are old, i.e., the later stages of your WCK practice. IME our WCK can grow, and get better with age, as Joy notes but it doesn't happen magically; we must do the proper groundwork. If our expression and skill relies on the power of muscular exertion or on 'speed reaction-time' then our skills will naturally decline as we age as Andrew correctly notes. But fortunately, we have examples like Sum Nung to inspire us; he was a great WCK fighter that continued to have formidable skills into his 70's (I understand that up until he died he would still face challengers) and would routinely send folks flying with his bong sao and then point to his skinny arms to make the point that his power had nothing to do with gross muscular strength. But then Sum wore grooves into stone tiles practicing shifting when he was young. TN

Terence

[anerlich]

One of WCK's kuen kuit says, "Lien Kuen But Lien Gung, Dao Lao Yat Cheung Hung - if you practice fighting arts without partaking in basic training, you will have nothing when you're old."

I agree. However, another Kuen Kuit says, "Receive what comes" or its modern variation, "sh*t happens, just deal with it". That includes dealing with the changes that come with getting older. You can prepare and compensate for them, but they will still happen. GM Sum Nung deserves our respect and reverence, but he didn't live to 120 or 150 either.

Impermanence is a tenet of Ch'an, is it not?

Also, what is "basic training" in this context? Could it be aerobic conditioning and strength and mobility training as well as qigong and SLT?

[t_niehoff]

anerlich writes:

Impermanence is a tenet of Ch'an, is it not? AN

What does Ch'an Buddhism have to do with it? TN

Terence

[yuanfen]

Also, what is "basic training" in this context? Could it be aerobic conditioning and strength and mobility training as well as qigong and SLT?(Anerlich)

((FWIW- heart rate related sustained activity is the core of aerobic activity- sustained TCMA ctivity can achieve that too.
In taiji- Chen fake did and Chen Xiao Wang did and does sustained Chen forms and were and are fighting fit. Good SLT is the foundation- lots of floors can be built on that foundation within the art.)) Joy C.

What does Ch'an Buddhism have to do with it? TN

((Not much really. You cant make dogma out of Chan- it is based
on experience after entering the proper gate of sunyata.
The Siddharta Buddha lived past 80- food poisioning in a poor man's place contributed to his departure.
Martial Arts can help build the good life including self defense.

The problems with MA-ists is multidemnsional--- what else one does besides CMA....the combination of smoking(thanks to the Marlborough man and C0...and Johhny Walker and Co and other nasty habits have
been a problem with some masters---in addition to any genetic
issue or accidents))Joy C.

[anerlich]

What does Ch'an Buddhism have to do with it? TN

Hendrik/phenix/hsanto started the thread, I felt it might have some relevance to his POV. It doesn't have much to mine, indeed too much attachment to Ch'an is to miss the essence of Ch'an, etc etc etc.

Impermanence, however, and how we deal with it, is arguably the essence of the subject under discussion. Of course, that may change ;)

FWIW, I dont think qigong, as in "Forcing qi up" or "Forcing qi down" has a lot to do with it either. YMMV.

[zerozero]

Which kuen kuit? Are you referring to "loy lau/ hoi song?" I certainly don't believe it means, "sh*t happens, just deal with it."

How did you come by this? Your sifu?


Originally posted by anerlich


I agree. However, another Kuen Kuit says, "Receive what comes" or its modern variation, "sh*t happens, just deal with it". That includes dealing with the changes that come with getting older. You can prepare and compensate for them, but they will still happen. GM Sum Nung deserves our respect and reverence, but he didn't live to 120 or 150 either.