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View Full Version : Who here has actually trained with a Shaolin Monk?



GeneChing
05-01-2001, 08:04 PM
I'll start. I've trained at Shaolin Temple under my master Shi Decheng. I've taken lessons (albeit some of them were rather short) under Shi Sugang, Shi Deshan, Shi Xinghong, Shi Xinghao, Shi Yanming and Shi Guolin. Has anyone else here trained directly under the monks and to what extent?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

reemul
05-02-2001, 04:57 AM
The Shaolin Master left in 1928-1933. How old are you?

I train as a Shaolin practioner, Under a Shaolin Master of an animal system.(no longer monks)

Those that are at the temple now are contemporary wushu athletes dressed up to look the part of Monks.

joedoe
05-02-2001, 11:19 AM
I have been training under the (late) Shaolin Master Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong.

I have also trained at the southern Shaolin Temple in Quanchou with the monks there and I can assure you that while their forms style is like wushu, they are excellent martial artists.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

Fu Manchu
05-04-2001, 01:07 PM
There're many drug takers who call themselves monks solicitating contrban material around the Shaolin temple. To avoid the authorities, they dress themselves up as monks.

But you don't have to travel all the way to China to learn Shaolin Kung Fu in Shaolin surroundings and be away from all the modern ammenities.

At the Dr. Fu's Shaolin Theme Park in New Orleans, you can learn true Shaoin Kung Fu. The surroundings have been recreated (scale model) to give the realness of feel. There're also lots of joy rides and 3D adventure tours and pop sodas for the kiddies.

I am transcended!

ShaolinTiger00
05-06-2001, 10:57 PM
Gene,
As a Sanshou fighter, I have had lots of experience with Shawn Liu (Shi Deru).
Since he is also a very close friend of my Sifu (Mike Barry) when he comes to town he often teaches his qigong and staff forms !

A strong man controls others. A man who controls himself is truly powerful. -Lao Tzu

gumyilo
05-07-2001, 03:19 PM
What did you think of Sifu Yan Ming?

"There are no shortcuts in Kung Fu only long days of Hard Work."

gumyilo
05-07-2001, 03:21 PM
sorry and what about Sifu Guolin I know they are both in NY and was thinking of joining their schools, so any info about them would be good. like did you like their training methods...etc..etc

thanks

"There are no shortcuts in Kung Fu only long days of Hard Work."

GeneChing
05-07-2001, 07:27 PM
Well, I'm glad to see that there are some people out there who have actually trained under the monks, instead of just dissed them from afar.

To ShaolinTiger00
Actually, Shawn is a layman disciple, not a monk, but he was certainly Shaolin trained. It's funny, I've known him for years but never taken a lesson from him. What did you think of his teachings (esp. his sanshou)?

To Gumyilo
Yanming and Guolin run very different schools. It's ironic, they both defected from the same tour and were in so many of the old books together. Now they have severely split philosophically. Guolin sticks pretty close to Chinese community. Yanming is truly crossing over to America, especially in hip hop/rap!

Guolin has other monks teach Buddhism and Kungfu. His temple is separate from his training hall. Hengxin is his martial monk. That temple is in Flushing, right under the flight path to La Guardia unfortunately. Buddhism is taught in Chinese only.

Yanming does all the teaching himself. He's a fireball, that one. His school is in Manhatten on Broadway. He used to offer some Buddhism classes (I don't know if he still does) and his English is great.

There are two others in NY - Yancheng (who I've never met and I've heard some unconfirmed rumor he went back to China) and Xingpeng (who left the order and teaches only on a small scale - he also has great English).

I would visit each school and find out which class is easier for you to attend. Find out which school appeals to you more, then go for it. The character of each school is so different - you need to determine for yourself which resonnates with you better.

I just wish a monk would stay in CA. You NYers are spoiled - good knishes and good monks.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

md1
05-08-2001, 05:34 AM
hi gene.

never trained with a shaolin monk but did train
with a master from the wudang temple

"when you expect your oppoent to yield/you also should avoid hurting him"

gumyilo
05-08-2001, 06:03 AM
lol, yes we are spoiled, don't you just love us.
Thanks for the info gene, I visted Yanmings place they still teach buddishm, one quick question, do they teach the same way, like the format of the classes?

"There are no shortcuts in Kung Fu only long days of Hard Work."

reemul
05-08-2001, 12:01 PM
What system of kungfu do you study under these Monks?

gumyilo
05-08-2001, 01:29 PM
I'm pretty sure they teach Shaolin Kungfu, If I'm wrong someone correct me

"There are no shortcuts in Kung Fu only long days of Hard Work."

GeneChing
05-08-2001, 07:04 PM
md1: Who was that master? What did you study?

gumyilo: The format of the classes (and I'm assuming you mean kungfu classes, not Buddhism) are similar and the same as most of the stuff I've seen at Shaolin. It starts with some quick warm-up stretches, then basics (jibengong). The basics progress the kicks, line drills, then some form lines. There is a lot of overlap, but no two masters use exactly the same patterns. Then it's form practice and/or free fighting. The classes are separated to train in small groups of similar skill levels.

reemul: I really don't want to get into the shaolin/wushu/fake monk debate again. Been there, done that.

But to address your question, I've been working on shaohong, dahong and lohan with most of these monks. They all know those, so they usually ask to see one of them, then give me pointers. With my own master, Shi Decheng, I've trained a bunch of different forms of Shaolin kungfu and qigong. I've been focusing on the traditional Shaolin, but in '96 I did train in a wushu form there - zuiquan. I figured I had one wushu form left in my body (I played some wushu in my college days, but only nibbled in it - never learned a complete form). What amazed me was that Decheng had viable applications for every single move. It made me rethink wushu. Shi Sugang is different. He gave me a Chin Na lesson in '95 that I never figured out. Everytime he sees me, he askes if I remember, then proceeds to test me by twisting me in knots, after which he tells me to remember next time, which I don't because I spent most of his lesson trying to avoid getting seriously hurt.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

ShaolinTiger00
05-08-2001, 09:00 PM
Shawn's Teachings are excellent. Although his English does have a stacatto, rapid-fire machine gun sound, I just nod and follow. His sanshou is great. Very technical and clean. Everything a good coach should be. :-)

A strong man controls others. A man who controls himself is truly powerful. -Lao Tzu

reemul
05-08-2001, 11:55 PM
You misunderstood the question, I didn't mean what forms you are learning, but what is the "system". Shaolin Kungfu is merely a global term for all the systems of of Shaolin Kungfu. At least prior to 1928. The Shaolin temple was seperated into different schools of training similar to the way a university has different schools of learning. So what system do you study?

mantis714mrkmrg
05-09-2001, 06:50 AM
back to monks where are the 32 generation and 31 or even earlier, before wushu came into play. all you ever see is the modern monks doing there stuff, id like to see the old monks do there stuff. thats what i would like to learn, the genuine shaolin gung fu of old. wouldnt that be cool!!! fro what I read anymore I have mixed feelings, exspecally there cost to go to there schools some are like so expensive. I know all must charge be there like way above at least the ones in ny are, I always thought that a buddist monk didnt need material things or am I mistacken,, I hope I dont offend anyone but I just dont trust anything anymore,

reemul
05-09-2001, 07:33 AM
The old school monks are know more, however some of the systems have been survived by masters who are not monks. Mainly because the old school masters were sent into exile for fear of their lives. Unfortunately it seems the trendy thing to do is to train with those playing the role.

reemul
05-09-2001, 05:56 PM
crap

Radhnoti
05-09-2001, 06:02 PM
S'ok reemul, even inheritors of the TRUE and undiluted power of Shaolin, such as yourself, can make a typo once in a while. We understand.
:)

-Radhnoti

GeneChing
05-09-2001, 07:21 PM
I addressed the question of Shaolin systems in my latest e-zine article, so please have a look and tell me what you think. The organization of traditional Shaolin at Shaolin temple now is very lineage oriented. While there are many standard traditional sets, there is plenty of variation. Most don't distinguish variations by specific names aside from the names of the individual forms. It's all shaolin to them.

As for the monks only performing wushu, this is because wushu is the performance form of kungfu in PRC. It's what wushu was desingned for - Traditional lacks the spectacular quality of wushu, especially for people who know nothing about kungfu. But all the monks practice BOTH wushu and traditional (except for maybe some of the older monks who skip the wushu).

Personally, I think that's what makes the monks extraordinary - they do it all, traditional, contemporary, sparring, hard qigong, etc. They even train military/police combat. I've lived with them at Shaolin. There were days when the monks had to give up to 5 performances for tourists, train their students, and train themselves. Nobody else works that hard. Nobody else needs to. Their wushu might not be as good as Beijing, but they'll beat Beijing wushu in the traditional, the hard qigong, or the sparring.

It's hard to imagine what it's like to make your living in the martial arts if you don't do so. When you do it for a hobby, it's one thing. But when you do it for your food, clothes and shelter, everything changes...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

md1
05-10-2001, 03:00 AM
hi gene.

the master's name is sifu sam sing wong of
toronto canada. The name of the style is
mudong, also the name of my school.
mudong gungfu academy.

"when you expect your oppoent to yield/you also should avoid hurting him"

Longquan
05-10-2001, 03:26 AM
I don't often check this board so I am suprised at the "this is" or "is not" shaolin attitudes.

KFO really needs an accurate FAQ regarding learning CMAs in the US.

I have met incompetent teachers--avoid them.
I have also met partially trained disciples--they have something to offer.
I have met masters--they have a lot to offer.

Above all, be a student! Take a look at what the teacher has to offer and internally analyze, criticize, and evaluate. If it seems worth learning at the time put 100% commitment into learning and development.

If you don't understand what is being taught, stick with it until you find a meaning or a new teacher.

"Everything is training, Training is everything"

Real Shaolin is impossible to verify. Is it even possible to historically verify that it is the best? No.

At heart today, "Shaolin" is marketing. Not the school or the temple, but the word is marketing.

If you break your a55 everyday, you will get better. Period. Work. Contemplate your failures. Correct your training. Work. Kung fu never ends except if you quit.

Just a rant....

"To the Buddhist, "To
be or not to be" is not
the question. The
question is whether or
not you can transcend
these notions."

Thich Nhat Hanh

r.(shaolin)
05-10-2001, 04:47 AM
Hi Gene interesting article, when I get a moment I well read it more thoroughly. From my first read it does not appear to reveal any new information. From short list of Songshan forms you present, it is my gut feel that the the traditional forms at t he present day Shaolin Temple are more of a compilation that is new, and not the pre-1900 curriculum. Apart from Xiao hong quan and Da hong quan which are listed together, the other forms seem to be arbitrarily listed.

You say that
>Songshan Sh aolin k u ngfu claims around 200 sets sum total<
and that it is
>rare for a single practitioner to know them all.<
According to our tradition Songshan Shaolin wushu included 273 forms. Agreed, few if any one person learned or mastered t hat may forms.
Altho u gh a num ber of things reeml claims about his Shaolin is inconsistent with what I have been taught, I have to agree with him that Shaolin is not just a arbitrary compilation of forms but is are grouped into a number sub- syst em s that coll ectiv ely could be c a lled Songshan Shaolin Wushu.
On another point, although the past generation acknowledges Ku Yu Cheong as a Songshan Shaolin student, he added a number of forms from other schools.
That is why it is Ku Yu Cheong's first stud ents that are ca lled - first generati on students. In other words that lineage really starts with him.

You say that,
>It's hard to imagine what it's like to make your living in the martial arts if you don't do so. When you do it for a hobby, it's one thing. But wh e n yo u do it for your food, clothes and shelter, everything changes...<

Agreed, but I would add that teaching professionally and doing demos was not the
traditional core function of Shaolin wushu. If it is, that changes everything . . . . .

[This message was edited by R. on 05-10-01 at 07:58 PM.]

northstar
05-10-2001, 03:55 PM
The subject of an original Shaolin style, meaning a curriculum for martial training in the Songshan temple, is contentious to say the least. Adam Hsu claims that in Ming documents listing and discussing the famous styles of kung fu, there are NO Shaolin styles.
This seems very likely to me. There were martial training in the temple, but most "Shaolin" styles have taken their names to honour and draw honour and respect from the myths of Shaolin.
But then again, people should focus less on who's style is original, and try to perfect their own kung fu with time and effort.

GeneChing
05-10-2001, 07:05 PM
Good to hear your insights everyone. This thread has become more of a discussion of my article than what I had intended, but that's cool. I was actually hoping to hook up with other monk students and swap notes. But this is fine too.

md1: Can you translate mudong? Just curious.

longquan: My intentional thrust of the article was not really to define real shaolin (although I did use that as an intentional literary device, in hopes of sparking the very dialog we are all having here now.) Actually, my intention was a comparison between two major interpretations of Shaolin. Personally, I lean towards Northstar's comment about the Shaolin name - I don't think it's as much marketing as it is honoring. However, the skeptical side of me tends to agree with you.

r.: My piece was meant to be a historical review, so nothing "new" was really offered, but just to call you on your comment (in a good natured way) can you name my research sources? If it's not new to you, where did you read it before?

I'm still working at sorting out the subsystem theory. The folk tradition jams it up, so it's really hard to validate, typified by the different number of total sets. I'd love to see your (and reemul's) subcategories. Have you published them anywhere?

I also agree that modern BSL starts with Ku, but most attribute the lineage back to Gan. BTW, next week I'll post some more research on Gan.

As for teaching and demos not being the core of Shaolin, well, demos definately not. Something I forgot to include in the BSL vs. Shaolin article was records from the Wanli's reign in the Ming states that Shaolin monks were already demonstrating for tourists at that time. Wanli was in 1573-1620. So it's not the core, but it been the tradition for quite some time. As for teaching, a huge portion of Shaolin dharma is kungfu, so I do think that is part of the core.

northstar: I'll have to read Hsu again. Can you point me to the exact page? I lent that book to someone and it never came back, so it will take me sometime to get back to you on this one (plus I just built some new bookshelves (YES!) so my library is a mess.)

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

r.(shaolin)
05-10-2001, 10:44 PM
Hsu, who does not practice Shaolin I might add, has been sawing that log since the early 80's. I think the first article he wrote on that subject was in the Nov. 1983 issue of Black Belt Mag. I am not sure if he holds that opinion now, as new refe ren ce mat erial has become available since. If I recall correctly, his opinion then was that the Shaolin Temple was not famous prior to the romantic stories of the Qing Dynasty and that Shaolin was largely a myth. This is, and was then, a misinformed opi nio n.

The idea that Shaolin was just a name and used / borrowed to honour (I'm not sure what, if not the martial arts that was once practiced there, which really did not exist : -))) as you suggust, is why
IMO that the PRC can do a survey for traditional f orms
compile them and call call this, Traditional Shaolin Wushu. Why do they not just call a spade, a spade. Its the PRC version of Shaolin Wushu.
Let them come clean about this versions true history, which is the product of a committee.<<

md1
05-10-2001, 11:44 PM
gene.

mudong-wudang. I've heard alot of times on
this forum that wudang can't be the name of
the style, but that's all my sifu ever called
the style mudong. He would say wudang is the
trunk of the tree and the other style's came
from it.
He said that when the communist took power
they burned the temple he studied at and that
you never heard anything about the mudong because
they did not side with government. He said so
much history has been changed. this is one of
the first time's I've chance to talk about this
thank you for the questions.

"when you expect your oppoent to yield/you also should avoid hurting him"

r.(shaolin)
05-11-2001, 01:27 AM
.A

r.(shaolin)
05-11-2001, 01:28 AM
Gene wrote

>As for teaching and demos not being the core of Shaolin, well, demos definitely not. Something I forgot to include in the BSL vs. Shaolin article was
records from the Wanli's reign in the Ming states that Shaolin monks were already demonstrat ing for tour ists at that time. Wanli was in 1573-1620. <

That at lest supports the fact that not only were there martial arts at Shaolin but the monks were accomplished at it :-)
As for the tradition of demonstrating of martial arts well, that has been around in China
far earlier than the 1500s. Early examples of military dances and rituals can be found at lest as far back as the Shang and Han dynasty. The Han Emperor, Liu Pang even brought them into his court as (Pa-yu) performances. However it also has been observed that there are negative aspects that seem to plague excessive concentration on demonstration. Concentration on demonstrations has a tendency to encourage those same arts into becoming performance arts making them useless in combat, which is something they were designed for. Criticisms of this type are not new but have been part of the history of Chinese martial arts.ˇ

[This message was edited by R. on 05-11-01 at 04:42 PM.]

doug maverick
05-12-2001, 03:41 AM
my father was in shaolin a while back(wish i could have gone but i had school) his friend who studied at shaolin for five year on and off in the summers new a few of the monks and got a performence of real chinese gung fu my father (who has a few pics i wish i had a scanner to show you but i have to wait till next week to get one)told me he seen some good ma and alot of fah ching in the forms won of the monks did a demo of tiger claw called tiger crush(gene i'm sure you saw this) he pick up a brick and had my father and his friend check it to see if it was fake this he formed a tiger claw with his hand then he graped the brick shuck his body (bringing energy to his hand)a little and crushed the brick. my dad said it was the best thing he ever saw. and if he had the time he would train in shaolin gung fu under master shi yan ming.

reemul
05-12-2001, 04:58 AM
I dont think you addressed my question at all in the article however I did notice some interresting points.

For one it seems of late that, Everyone wants to train with "Shaolin" monks, however in your article you point out that the Temple of today does not practice Shaolin Kungfu, but practice contemporary Wushu. I inferred by your article that you recognize that there is a difference between them. By that rationale, they are not Shaolin Monks, but contemporary Wushu "monks" if monks at all, which the later I could careless to dispute.

Another point of interrest was that you said Bak Sil Lum up until recent years referred to Shaolin kungfu outside China, and yet so many members of this forum have trouble believing we our lagit because I'm in the States. Also as I have pointed out, as 1928-1933 the Shaolin masters went into exile which could be interpreted as the foundation of the referrence to Shaolin outside of China.

You inquired our take on subcategories of Shoalin, well for those who think there were none, you are either smokin dope, or pushing PRC propaganda. Some of the animal systems(not forms) of Northern Shaolin kungfu were the first martial arts systems developed. The monastary only served to formally institutionalize MA into a systematic process of training. I can see why the Neo-temple would push propaganda saying others wise, because they don't have them anymore.

Brad
05-12-2001, 05:33 PM
Reemul,

If someone is a monk at the Shaolin Temple then they are a Shaolin monk no matter what style of martial art is practiced.

reemul
05-12-2001, 11:09 PM
Thats your opinion anyway.

joedoe
05-13-2001, 02:54 AM
Yes, that is his opinion, and you should respect it like everyone is respecting your opinion. You seem so ready to put forth your opinion as the correct one, and simply to disregard other people's opinions as wrong.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

reemul
05-13-2001, 06:31 AM
So Chill.

So easily are typed words taken out of context.

GeneChing
05-13-2001, 07:52 PM
md1: gotcha - mu most be like the Cantonese for wu. wu de wushu, mo de mo i.

r.: Actually there is a great tradition of performance of kungfu, not only as military demos, but as street performers, opera, and acrobatics. The critics of wushu should really take this into consideration - kungfu as a perfomance art has a long standing tradition. While it may lack 'pure' combat applications, performance is one aspect of kungfu that has allowed it to excel, even today in movies. Karate, TKD, BJJ, whatever, it just ain't as showy, so in performance, kungfu/wushu rules.


reemul: I really don't want to get into the shaolin/wushu/fake monk debate again. Been there, done that.

I think you mis-read my article. I did not say they don't practice Shaolin Kungfu at the temple. I did say they practice wushu. They practice both. If you practice everyday, all the time, practicing both is no problem. Really all wushu is is a performance version of kungfu - it's exaggerated, but it's built on the same foundation as traditional.

A major point I was presenting was about the politics of kungfu. Westerners are quick to jump on the PRC for being propagandist because it is what our propagnad has told us. But in fact, everyone has their own propaganda and agenda. For every bit of PRC propaganda, there is something from HK, Taiwan and here. There is a lot of nationalism in kungfu and if you study recent history and undertand your lineage (its context in China this last century) you know where you stand. Nothing worse than one propaganda attacking another for being propagandist. It's a straw man argument, an embarrasingly hypocritical one at that.

Also, I don't deny subcategories of Shaolin at all. In fact, there are more than can be accurately categorize, especially with all the variations. There is no universal standard - if there was, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's all interpretative, which is why I ask your interpretation. Such is the nature of arts such as kungfu. It's like folktales - no version is wrong, but some are more meaningful than others, especially in context of current events.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

beiquan
05-14-2001, 01:17 AM
gene - great article. keep up the research!

joedoe
05-14-2001, 01:36 AM
OK. Obviously when I read your posts I read them in the wrong way. I will just not reply to anything you say. :)

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

r.(shaolin)
05-14-2001, 01:47 AM
Gene wrote:
> Nothing worse than one propaganda attacking another
> for being propagandist. It's a straw man argument,
> an embarrassingly hypocritical one at that.

Gene I don’t think it is about political propaganda at all. To drag in politics would most certainly muddly the waters. It’s about the misrepresentation of wushu from the PRC Shaolin Temple.

Most teaching monks are claiming to be 34th Generation Shaolin Temple Fighting Monk.
The implication, I could only assume, is they knows traditional Shaolin that is traced through lineage all the way to Abbot Fu Yu.
If things are to be put into traditional terms these monks are really 1st generation PRC Shaolin Kung-fu students. The curriculum they studied was designed and complied only recently. I t may contain some or even many traditional forms
but from a variety of sources not from any one lineage and certainly not for the lineage of Fu Yu). For the same reason that Ku Yu Cheong is the founder of his lineage of Shaolin - The Committee - should identify themselves as the founders of their lineage of Shaolin.

However, I have to add, there is much good work the PRC has done and are doing on the history of Chinese martial arts and they should be applauded for it.

kind regards

r.(shaolin)
05-14-2001, 06:10 AM
re

r.(shaolin)
05-14-2001, 06:10 AM
Gene wrote:
> Actually there is a great tradition of
> performance of kungfu, not only as military
> demos, but as street performers, opera, and
> acrobatics. The critics of wushu should really
> take this into consideration - kungfu as a
> performance art has along standing tradition.


I do not disagree that there is a great and long tradition of performance of kungfu.
As well I agree it is not a black and white issue, there is always a bit of combat
in even the most performance oriented martial art as there is a bit of showboating in the most combat focused martial arts.
If one were to compare the turbulent times of the Five Dynasty to the stability of the Sung Dynasty, often call the Golden Age of martial arts, it was during the Sung that there was a major growth of martial arts performance and the addition of many
showy and acrobatic movements. An example was the famed Yang Hsien-chiang.
He added dramatic high leaps balancing as well as risky and dangerous maneuvers.
The three skills that are valued by performance martial arts: gao, xian, Nan.
Great for entertainment value but a liability in combat.

Case in point: Emperor Jia Qing (Qing Dynasty), after receiving an assessment of one of his armies, made a very disparaging comment aimed at thei r combat effectiveness.
He criticized this armies martial skills as being only for show and performances not for practical use. This was stated in an imperial decree so it was no light matter in his eyes.

[This message was edited by R. on 05-14-01 at 09:25 PM.]

GeneChing
05-15-2001, 01:44 AM
Shaolin has always been a political entity from the beginning when it was patronized by the Emperors, so it is of utmost importance to examine the political context of Shaolin, particularly in the case of modern Shaolin. A lot of people are really concerned by the validity of today's Shaolin kungfu due to the influence of PRC and wushu, but they don't really consider the influence of the prior dynasties and the evolution of kungfu over a 1500 year history. Who knows what went into Shaolin prior to this century? There are som big gaps in the history. But it doesn't really matter because we are left with what is now. It's all about evolution. The original version of Shaolin, whatever that might have been, as a vital, living art, has undergone evolution. It should not be invalidated for changing to adapt to the times. By the same notion, the only real Ford is the model T. This plays into the concept of lineage. These lineages are documented and as long as the thread is maintained, there is no reason to restart with every innovation. Just as Bodhidharma is called 1st patriarch of Chan/Zen, he is still considered 27th in the lineage of Buddha.

I think we are all in agreement that 'performance' kungfu is not as efficient for fighting as many other systems, otherwise we probably wouldn't go to the trouble of discriminating it as 'performance.' But in our age of guns, combat is not the only reason to practice kungfu, nor is it the measure of net reproductive success anymore. All arts are equalized by a saturday night special at 20 paces. Today, to paraphrase Bruce Lee, it can be about expressing the human body. So performance is not any less valid as an art just because it isn't as combat effective.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

r.(shaolin)
05-15-2001, 03:34 AM
Gene, I enjoyed your posts.

take care,
r.ˇ

GeneChing
05-15-2001, 07:13 PM
enjoyed your posts too, r. keep them coming!
Now back to the original question, has anyone here actually trained with a Shaolin Monk?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

joedoe
05-16-2001, 03:29 AM
As I said before, yes. At the Southern Shaolin temple in Quan Chou.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

GeneChing
05-16-2001, 10:58 PM
ABandit: Can you share a little more about it? Where is that exactly and what are the monks like? Is it connected to Songshan? When were you there and waht was it like?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

HuangKaiVun
05-16-2001, 11:52 PM
GeneChing, how has your Bak Siu Lum from Wing Lam changed as a result of your training with the Shaolin monks?

By the way, I've talked to you and Subitai several times on the phone. Thanks for the help in the past.

joedoe
05-17-2001, 10:41 AM
OK, when I say trained, it was only for a day. It was at the Southern Shaolin temple in Quan Chou and a group of us were over there with the late Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong. Grandmaster had been invited to bring the art of Wu Chu Chuan back to China so he brought a few of us to assist in teaching the art back to the monks.

It is always hard to tell the age of Asians, so I can't really say how old the monks we trained with were, but they appeared mostly to still be in their mid-to-late teens, some in their early twenties.

We taught them mostly strengthening/conditioning exercises and a few forms. Generally, they picked up the lesson extremely quickly. Everyone who assisted in the teaching were sure that if we came back in a year's time they would all be better than us. Their strength, stamina, and technique were excellent and their humility and eagerness to learn were amazing.

When we taught them forms, what would take the average Australian student 4 lessons to learn they learned in about 30 minutes. To top it all off, when they did the forms they looked a lot nicer than when we did them, and they were far more athletic.

Then we had a period of demonstration where a few of us demo'd forms, and a few of them returned the favour. Their forms were in general more wushu-like, and certainly more fancy, while our forms tend to be less flashy and more powerful. However when they practiced the forms we taught them, they were generally true to the way we taught it and resisted the temptation to embellish.

Generally the experience was exciting and humbling at the same time. These guys were young and lived in conditions many of us could not deal with, and from what I could tell their diet was pretty basic. As martial artists I have the utmost respect for them. I don't know what the Songshan monks are like, but I was impressed with their Southern brothers. Whether they are really good, or I am easily impressed is yet to be seen ;).

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You have no chance to survive - make your time.

GeneChing
05-17-2001, 06:25 PM
huangkaivun: Glad to know we've talked, but forgive me if I can't identify you (your profile wasn't to helpful.)

When I came back from Shaolin, with the blessings of Lam Sifu, I implemented the Shaolinsi training program for our warm ups & gruop exercise. That was 6 years ago, and now it has completely replaced Sifu Lam's curriculum. Only the Shaolin students who have been with him for more than a dozen years (just his senior instructors) know what Sifu Lam originally taught - the rest think it's the Shaolinsi program that I now teach.

I aslo brought back the goods for Shaolin and developed his mail order business with those imports. His company was built upon his videos and those Shaolin imports. Now it has grown to become more income producing than Lam Kwoon. so the effect on Lam Kwoon has been very dramatic. It changed everything there.

However, only the BSL forms are taught there. I have shared my Shaolinsi forms with a few, but am very hesitant to teach that stuff now, since I don't feel I have the depth of knowledge required to do so.

For me personally, the shaolinsi program had a dramatic effect on my BSL. It gave much more complexity to the forms and diversity to the applications. I began to focus more on stance training, streching, fighting apps and conditioning. Everything went a level deeper. Not that it did much good - I still suck. But at least I have a clearer perception on how greatly I suck.

Abandit: That is such a wonderful story. Do you have pics to document it? If it were developed, it might make an interesting article that could shed more light on that temple, your master and his style. Please contact me privately if you are interested.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

joedoe
05-18-2001, 10:27 AM
Gene,

I don't personally have any photos or documentation to back that up, but I can see if some of my fellow instructors have any. I'm not entirely sure it would make a great article though :)

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You have no chance to survive - make your time.

HuangKaiVun
05-18-2001, 03:34 PM
I'm the guy that sent all 5 Level 1 BSL sets on one video, though I recorded them improperly because I didn't have a "Student Manual" at the time (still don't, but WILL).

As you know, a guy like me has to cop his own applications and thus has come up with his own sense of things.

My question to you, GeneChing, is if you could elaborate a specific BSL technique application (combat) or otherwise that changed due to your involvement with Shaolin Temple.

The reason I ask is because I think it would be interesting for those of us who do BSL to see what's the difference between the BSL and SongShan styles.

[This message was edited by HuangKaiVun on 05-19-01 at 06:41 AM.]

phoenix-eye
05-23-2001, 02:22 PM
I training with genuine 34th generation shaolin monk Sifu Shi Yan Zhi this weekend. Its a 2 day shaolin gong fu seminar in Scotland.

Sifu Shi Yan Zhi is the official shaolin representative for the UK.

Check out www.shaolintempleuk.org (http://www.shaolintempleuk.org)

I will post a reply on Monday and let you know what its like. Gonna be well hard I reckon..!!

GeneChing
05-24-2001, 02:41 AM
abandit: Well if you don't think it'll make a good article, I understand. It just sounds wild. Do you know what the connection was to Henan Shaolin?

lau-paul: I met Yansi in 1999, he helped me with my interview with the abbot. I doubt he remembers me but if you get the chance, tell him that I am still interested in doing that story with him that we discussed at Shaolin.

huangkaivun: I remember a video with all the forms on it but unfortunately I have no memory of it beyond that. Sorry.
But to answer your question, well, it's really hard with out being able to show you. Shaolinsi has a more twisting energy, almost like Chen Taiji silk reeling. It's really hard to emulate, but immensily powerful when you get it. It also seems to attack on more lines. For example, in BSL every cat stance conceals a leg attack. In SLS every stance conceals a leg attack, be it mabu, gongbu, or whatever. In SSSL, every move has an application of the 4 methods, ti, da, sui, na (kick, punch, throw, lock.) I've extrapolated that philosophy to BSL, and it seems to work with a little modification, at least so far.
I just spent the weekend with the Houston monks. My disciple brother Xingda showed monk Xinghao some of my BSL sifu's videos and got some interesting comments that I am still trying to digest. It's a trippy variation, something that makes a lot of sense to me now in theory, but I'm a long way until I can make it work in practice. It's hard to describe for me, but give me a few months (or years) to work on it and maybe I while be able to say something more intelligent about this. I'll try to get more when I see him again in Dallas at Taiji Legacy.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

HuangKaiVun
05-25-2001, 04:27 AM
I myself break up my "applications" into long distance fighting (closing the gap), short distance fighting, going to the ground, and being on the ground.

In truth, I don't really think much in terms of actual "applications" anymore. I've become more interested in learning about energy flow and power generation, as I've done some Bagua Single/Double Palm changes.

Actually, I've interpreted "Fairy Scatters Flowers" as the Bagua Single Palm Change and the "Spear Hand Single Kick To Head Fairy Scatters FLowers" combo as the Double Palm Change (both in the Moi Fah Set).

Do the Shaolin monks themselves also practice Bagua Single/Double Palm Changes in the context of their sets?

joedoe
05-26-2001, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I guess the story probably sounds more interesting than it really was. Don't get me wrong, it was an experience that I will never forget, but I am unsure about whether anyone would want to read about it :). I'll ask my training brothers about what they think.

The other issue is that Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong recently passed away, and I am unsure about how my Sihings would feel about such an article.

I am unsure of the connection with Henan. It is supposed to be a genuine Shaolin Temple, and is supposed to be the rebuilt Southern Shaolin monastery in Quan Chou. I do not know if the monks we trained with have any association at all with the Henan monks.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

Shaolindynasty
05-28-2001, 12:21 AM
Gene, has Sifu Wing Lam ever trained at Shaolin and if he did what did he think of it? Techniques, Ciriculum etc.

Witness the Dynasty!!!

GeneChing
05-28-2001, 08:03 PM
HKV: That't an interesting take on "fairy". I'll have to play with that a little and see if it works for me.
Your distance catagorization is essentially the same as the ti, da, sui, na catagorization. My fencing training echoes your distance method, but in trad. kungfu, I have always heard TDSN, plus it rhymes a little, so I use that.
Each monk is different, so some do know some bagua/xingyi, but what is more popular is Chen taiji, probably becuase Chen village is so close to Shaolin. But I think you picked up on what I was trying to express earlier - SSSL has this heavy internal element that you don't see as prominently in BSL or the cont. wushu that the monks demo. It's really hard to explain, but when you get real close to the monks when the practice, you can definately feel it.

AB: Don't feel you have to pursue an article - if you're intuition tells you not to go there, that's good enough for me. I'm very content just to hear your retelling of it here.

SD: Lam Sifu never trained with the monks. He has observed a few lessons at Shaolin when we co-led tours, but I think he wasn't into doing all the conditioning (running, footwork, jumping, rolling, etc.) The only time I have seen him take a lesson was with Sun Jianyun. However, he has always accepted whatever material I have brought in from SSSL and allowed me to teach it at the school, particularly the conditioning and jibengong (and not to mention the imports for his company!) Through me, all of his BSL instructors now know it and implement it to some degree. Personally, I think the SSSL has increased our BSL attendence over the years significantly. BSL class dwarfs the Hung Gar and Taiji classes. It is also worthy of note that one of our kids class instructors was ejected for (among other things) teaching cont. wushu. I brought both Shi Yanming and Shi Goulin to give seminars at Lam Kwoon, but Sifu Lam did not engage them beyond polite courtesy (and he never comments on anyone elses stuff with the possible exception of David Carradine and Brian Grey.) So it would be pretty hypocritical of him not to accept SSSL now. When I asked him in the past, he always approved.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

The Willow Sword
05-29-2001, 08:49 AM
SHAOLIN MONKS? WHAT? WHERE? IN CHINA? COMMUNIST CHINA? THE SAME COMMUNIST CHINA WHO WIPED OUT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLES? THE SAME COMMUNIST CHINA THAT CAPITOLIZES ON TOURISM TO THE "SHAOLINTEMPLE"? WHAT MONKS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? THE WUSHU ARTISTS YOU MEAN THAT SHAVE THIER HEADS AND DRESS LIKE MONKS TO ENTERTAIN THE CROWD AND RICH AMERICANS? HMMMM.. I WONDER. WELL I GUESS ITS PROBABLY NOTHING REALLY. LETS SEE NOW BUDDHISM,,,COMMUNISM,,,,WORKING AT THE SAME TIME?
I GUESS I AM NOT DOUBTING THE MARTIAL ABILITIES OF ANYONE THERE,,BUT REAL SHAOLIN MONKS? HMMMM I MUST BE SOBERING UP I NEED ANOTHER DRINK.................HA THIS WILL BE FUN. :eek:

Brad
05-29-2001, 03:36 PM
While I'm highly skeptical of the Shaolin monks, there are Buddhist Monks in China(outside of Shaolin). They have various Christian churches so why not Buddhist monks?

Shaolindynasty
05-29-2001, 07:15 PM
We shouldn't be debating on if the monks are real or not. That is up to Shaolin it's self to decide. Just because we practice martial arts decended from the temple doesn't give us the right to judge them. You have to remember that Shaolin is a Buddhist temple (STILL) and as long as the monks are excepted by that temple they are true monks. That is all I am going to say about this "controversy".

Witness the Dynasty!!!

kungfudork
05-30-2001, 07:35 AM
hello all. hi gene.
well let me start by giving my idea on the whole wushu vs. traditional forms from the monks of today. i am now training in texas with shi xing hao. he is about 27 years old and was at shaolin temple about 14 years. now before shi xinghao went to shaolin he had already practiced kungfu from about age 6....he became very proficient at contemporary wushu(they refer to as long fist). later at the age 14(i believe) he went to shaolin temple....his first year there he hated it. he was use to long fist, so his stances were open and his chest out...he refers to this as very beautiful and open. but the training he was recieving at shaolin had tighter stances and a concept of every part of the body coils up and then explodes then back to coiled up(this is hard to explain in words). my point in short is that there is big difference in contemp. wushu and traditional shaolin. Shi xing hao almost decided to leave shaolin, because it was so different from what he already new(contemporary long fist)and he found it very hard to adapt to in the beginning.
i have learned so much in such a short time here in houston. i was in shaolin temple for a month in '96 and i learned shao hong chuan, a staff form, and a sword form. the only form i kept was shao hong chuan but i can't say it was even close to being good. i thought i knew the form,but after a short time here shi xing hao fixed my form and basically changed the whole thing. well the form looks the same but how i do the moves is completely different and i am actually starting to be enlightened on the concept of developing the power and understanding the moves. so, my 2 cents is that yes there is wushu at shaolin, and yes there is true traditional shaolin at shaolin today. if anyone is gonna be in dallas at the jimmy wong tournament i would be happy to discuss this and give my take on my interpretation of what i've learned. i am not saying i know the true right way to do shaolin, i just wanna see and discuss what the diffence is from my view and anyone elses.
respect to all,
dieter wagner

GeneChing
05-30-2001, 09:41 PM
Well there you go - 60 posts on this thread and we've digressed into all this shaolin controversy, but only 4 responses to the actual question - 1 student of Deru, 1 student who trained at the Southern Shaolin Temple, 1 student who took a weekend seminar with Yanzi, and Dieter above, who is sort of a ringer. An interesting situation, sort of indicative of how shaolin is experienced vs. how it is perceived.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

shaolinboxer
05-30-2001, 11:40 PM
I spent a couple years training closely with Yan Ming, and met Li Peng in Holland (I took one class with him after he moved to NY)...also met some of the other monks as they would pass through NY. (Gene, I think we were introduced once in a car....hmm).

I suggest if you want to learn more about the monks, you train with them for a while. It is ridiculous to me how they are all grouped together as "shaolin monks". They are all individuals, and pretty **** good martial artists. You'll find your own truth regarding shaolin. You just have to spend some time training.

I am exhausted by the whole real vs fake argument. The reality of your training is created within yourself, and I believe this applies to the whole "real vs fake" controversy.

Here's a little snippet that I often tell people to explain my experience. Li Peng hosted a demo/tournament in Holland. One of the younger monks, I forget his name becuase it was very complicted to say, came by my hotel room after a demo to teach me some chin na. He spoke no english, but signaled with his hands for me to take notes, and that he would teach me 10 techniques. He did just that (it was very exciting), and then invited me outside. He gave me a lesson on chi kung breathing and instructed me to give it a try. As soon as I began breathing, hit lit up a cigarette and offered me one.

mamisano
05-31-2001, 10:43 PM
I have trained with Shi Yanming on various occassions in NY. He holds seminars at our school from time to time. I learned an open hand and a staff form from him.

Regards,

Michael Amisano
Former Kung-Fu Student
Trying to get back on the right path.

shaolin_knight
06-01-2001, 03:34 AM
I'm hoping to train a little next summer, if I can save enough money to go on the study tour with your sifu. will you be there? i'm not very good, do you think i should wait before going on something like that or do you think i should just train harder this year? i also have no experience with Sun style tai chi. i want to go because it sounds like fun anyway.

shaolinboxer
06-01-2001, 04:26 AM
so, you sign your name as "former kung fu student".

Why do you feel like you've fallen off of the path? Your martial arts will change just like your life changes. There will be months when you can get to class, but you can still train...even if its for 20 min. You don't need a school to be on "the path", just the will to practice.

Martial arts is a long road. Think big. Instead of, the old "how many times did I practice this week", think about how many times you practiced this month...this year...this decade.

Good luck and look everywhere for martial arts, not just where you think you should look.

GeneChing
06-03-2001, 09:37 PM
L: Can you give me a hint about being introduced in a car? Was it in NY w/Yanming last year on the way to a sold out live fight match? And how are Lipeng's classes doing?

M: Do you know the names of the forms you learned from Yanming? And tell me you're not a former KF-student becuase you took up tae bo or something...

S_K: I probably not go on Lam Sifu's next tour. We went to compete together in China - it our first trip to the northern mainland (Lam Sifu left China went he was only 8.) That trip changed my world view (but then most trips do...)

We co-led a tour to Shaolin in '98 and it was a disaster that ended in a car crash. Fortunately no one was seriously hurt, but after that I decided not to lead such a tour again. I was in the middle of nowhere, the only one with medical training, with a van full of bleeding friends (including a 4 yr. old) who had followed me there, in the rain. It was a bad trip, a really bad trip.

I met up with his tour in Shaolin in '99, but for some incomprehensible reason they left just before the festival and I stayed. Actually, once you've gone to China, it's much more affordable to go without going on a tour (unless that tour guide has some unusually good connections.) But if you've never gone, especially if you plan to train, a guide can be very helpful. Consider your guides very carefully.

I definately encourage you to go, no matter what your skill level is. You learn so much travelling, no matter if it is for kungfu or just personal fulfillment.

And absolutely you should train harder this year whether you are going or not. Just train harder. Don't even think about the reason why.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

shaolinboxer
06-03-2001, 10:03 PM
Yes, we met after trying to get into that fight at the tropicana.

I dunno how Li Peng's classes are doing. He's was bouncing around at different locations in the city, and mentioned he was surprised to find out how difficult it was to become successful in NY (as compared to his ventures in Europe).

As I said, I only saw him once after he came to NY. He could be anywhere.

GeneChing
06-04-2001, 06:20 PM
Hey Lyle,
That's cool about getting into that fight. I remember that night, but forgive me if your face is a blur to me. If we ever meet face-to-face again, you'll have to remind me.

I know where Lipeng is - Brooklyn! If you're interested, contact me privately. After having incredible success in Europe with 4 schools, and a few shaolin-only tournaments, he is starting over very modestly. I think his take on having a big school is "been there, done that." Now I'm not sure where he will go - he may retire completely (but what a waste that would be.) More on him to come...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

wisdom mind
06-13-2001, 07:13 PM
thanks...

chiman
06-20-2001, 04:41 PM
I am a student of Shi Yan Ming since 1996. Since then I've learned from Shi De Yang, Shi Xing Xi, and another fantastic monk from Wushu Guan. I don't remember his name.

I'm happy my Shifu afforded me the opportunities to train with them, it has been a wonderful journey.

There you go Gene, another post responding to the topic!

What's up Lyle!

"Watch the Eight
Diagram smash the
diaphragm"

shaolinboxer
06-20-2001, 07:07 PM
Glad to see you are here to reprezent!

GeneChing
06-20-2001, 07:28 PM
Looks like we have reps from Yanming & Xinghao. Cool. Let's keep the family together here. Anyone from any of the other US monks?

centerline vortex: I've never actually taken a lesson from Lipeng so maybe you should ask Lyle. I know he is strong in qigong & ditang, and even the other monks regards his overall skill as top notch, which they certainly don't say about every other monk.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

shaolinboxer
06-20-2001, 08:32 PM
As with all of the monks, he teaches his own style.

I can say that he believes in learning applications of forms, and that he seems to lean toward a more traditional interpretation of shaolin.

Stumblefist
06-20-2001, 09:57 PM
Gene:
Please explain exactly what you mean by "trained at the Shaolin Temple". As we know the Shaolin temple is a Museum now. But of course they run training centres. So can you delinate the whole structure for us? i.e. how many training halls/schools/ locations , different ones for chinese,? for foreigners? for the foreign-monk-show teams/ for the internal-monk-show-teams / command and onwership struture? government involvement owership? i.e. a management organization structure chart.
How many actual real monks now? In 89 i heard there were 11, and something like 5000 kids in the run-for-profit school.
Are they really selling/giving certificates to people in all kinds of countries? Semms to be the case.
What is the Shaolin involvement with the National Wushu Organization in Beijing (that org is responsible for disseminating official "government kung-fu" and arranging all tournaments domestic and foreign and the programs at the sports universities.) Seems there must be some close connection. Any organization not government sponsored is technically illegal. All DanWei's (work units) inclding schools (and would think must be shaolin) have a political officer.
Now don't snow me now like ignoring some other legitimate orgs or pretending there is only one big boss or whatever. I'll be passing by Shaolin again this summer (not too far from here)and get more at it. Last time my foot was broken and hindered my research efforts.
Well this is China and organizations are anything but simple and open to inspection. Everything in China is fake, including the government, everyone lies, there is level after level after level, and there is always a myth or illusion or face maintained. You almost have to be chinese to realize everything is an illusion except for the bullets that get fired in the back of some people's heads.
Your Wudang article showed quite a great naiviety about China, so i have my doubts about the quality of information you can provide. But shoot me down please if it's not so, and gen me up.
thanxs

Shaolindynasty
06-20-2001, 10:12 PM
How would you know you are in California? Have you ever actually lived in China? Trained at Shaolin? Also why would you have to be Chinese to understand?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Stumblefist
06-21-2001, 07:25 AM
ShaolinDynasty.
I don't quite get your bent. I am living in China now for quite some years. I have not trained at Shaolin although i have gone and "snooped around" asking many questions as is my wont.
I said you would "almost" have to be chinese to understand the illusory "face presentation" of chinese society vs whatever might be real. The chinese model of the universe is quite different form the western model.
That doesn't mean communication is impossible or evaluation or criticism is impossible as some people hold. After all we all operate on deeper human being principles. The key is to understand how those processes are being applied in culture. Some Americans take what they are told in China at face value, may not be so much incorrect as just too simple.
So if i look at any organization, i can tell you or investigate who has what authority, what power to do what, where the ofiices are, who is boss to whom, how is the transmission of information, the missions or functions,what power sruggles or conflicts exist etc., etc. .i.e. the structure. So i'm trying to find out the complexity of the Shaolin Organization for the "Shaolin Monastery". More involved in that is who is deciding what is official or government Shaolin Monastery Kung-Fu, who is controlling the development and transmission of that. It seems it has recently been re-invented to some extent with the resurfacing of some knowledge fromm som individuals, that's probably with some government assistance and control, The government's official tract on Shaolin is that they are not sure what Shaolin used to be.
So i am trying to find out what and who is the offical
"Shaolin monk kungfu" and what transpires at what locations. Is all practice under central control or distributed control. etc. etc. The more distributed, the less meaningful is any idea of an offical "Shaolin Monk Kungfu".
Shaolin Pai itself is a different story. Shaolin Pai is a unique style distributed throughout Henan. It is similar to "Govermnent Shaolin" and "Shaolin Monastery Monk-fu" but does not need to be exactly the same and has many variations.
...
How would i know i am in California? Well, we studied this question in Philosophy 101. How would i know i am dreaming? - because if i use awareness, i can identify certain characteristics of dreams and the experience of which i can compare to memories of the experience of not-dreaming. Within this context i can say if i am dreaming or not. However, i grant if there was some other level of experience i was unaware and had never experienced, (such as like the matrix) then i could not know i was under illusion.
You really didn't want to know that did you? :)

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 06-21-01 at 10:31 PM.]

GeneChing
06-21-2001, 08:39 PM
I find your comment "Everything in China is fake, including the government, everyone lies,..." offensive. If you truly beleive this, why on earth do you choose to live there and post here? Plus I'm Chinese - are you calling me a liar? (Actually I do lie on occasion, despite my Buddhist vows - I admit I'm a bad Buddhist - but I certainly don't care to be called a liar, and I suspect most Chinese concur.) True, face is an alien concept to westerner, but it's not too hard to understand once once you get filial piety and no reason to call us all fakes and liars.

However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since the essence of your question is interesting.

The structure of Shaolin is a tangled web, like so many Chinese organizations, as I'm sure you're familiar. There are many factions, including the temple itself, Dengfeng govt., Zhengzhou govt., CITS, IWF, and private enterprise. Each vies for power, as political entities do, and each is 'official' in it's own right. The abbot made a bold political move by trying to expurgate the village recently, eliminating many of the private factions, but I suspect he was backed by Dengfeng govt., since that is where all those factions will have to relocate and that will boost their economy. So I don't mean to snow you, but I cannot really answer this question easily.

Furthermore, I have no idea how many schools and students there are now, nor how many monks, because these numbers frequently change. My guess is that there are several dozen schools, maybe 10 to 20,000 students, 100-200 wenseng and 50 wuseng, based on observation and interview in 1999.

Nor do I know how many shows there are - I should qualify that any faction might run a monk show, plus I even saw one the originated in Beijing and heard of one coming out of Shandong - completely out of Shaolin, so it's really hard to tell. Many of the private schools put out tours, as well as private promoters, with dubious connections to the temple, if any at all. But then again, there are tours that have several of the geneuine monks on board too. There is no standard or control. I estimate I have seen at least a half a dozen different tours in the USA, each supposedly 'official'. Some definately were, others definately were not. The Bejing tour, which was the most fake one I have witnessed personally, drew a sold-out standing ovation, the most positive response I have ever seen to such a tour. If you can't tell which is which, you don't really need to know.

Indeed, many of these schools are illegal, especially since only three are authorized to teach foreigners but they all do. I have heard that some of these private schools are selling certificates, and that wouldn't be in the least bit surprizing. But as you know from living there, China is not the Orwellian vision most Americans believe it to be. It is more like small fiefdoms and posse mentality, so many such laws are never enforced. Those laws are somewhat silly anyway.

So no chart, no organization, it's like a Chinese fire drill. But that doesn't mean it's all invalid. There is just a loud signal-to-noise ratio. I assume your after the 'real kungfu' on your next trip so the best thing to do is to find contacts through the teachers that you are currently studying with in China. They should be able to direct your towards a good teacher at Shaolin. There is plenty of good traditional kungfu at Shaolin that is not "official." In fact, some of that is the best stuff... I hope your foot heals up so you can study their more seriously.

Lastly, I admit I have little expertise in China, but I'm very curious to know what portion of my Wudang article you felt was naive?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

chiman
06-24-2001, 04:07 AM
Gene-

where can I find this article of yours?

chiman

"Watch the Eight
Diagram smash the
diaphragm"

GeneChing
06-24-2001, 07:23 PM
Our eZine article archive is in reconstruction now, but you can still access the old archive thfough a bug in the system. Go to our home page, click magazines, then click view old magazine format. This will take you to our old site. Then click eZine from there and you can get inot our old eZine.
Hopefully, it'll all be reorgnized soon, but try that for now.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Stumblefist
06-24-2001, 09:36 PM
Gene: here is a simple link.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/HomePage/eZine/eZine.htm
excuse me, i'm out shopping for a fine Chianti, it'll be a little time before i get back to this discussion.

GeneChing
06-25-2001, 07:51 PM
Yeah, I shouda thought of that myself, doah!
Cheers!

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Songshan
06-27-2001, 09:55 AM
Hello to all. In answer to the thread I train under Shi Xing Hao in Houston Tx. I am still a novice but love the training. I just recently discovered this message board forum (sorry Gene :p ) even thought it looks like it's been up for a while. I too would hope to share training experiences with the other students who study with the monks in the US.

Keep up the good work Gene. You guys are putting out some excellent stuff. See ya around the web.

Songshan (Adam)

GeneChing
06-27-2001, 06:53 PM
Thanks for your support. When are you and Dieter going to get Michael on this forum?
:p

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

LeiWulong
06-29-2001, 05:30 PM
Once back in 1946. I was living in china and i met a guy who knew a guy who trained with a monk. So I met with him (the monk) and we started my training then and there. unfortunatly famlily business came up and I had to return to America.

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go
06-29-2001, 07:53 PM
to whomever it concerns,

California is a great state!!! :cool:

jay-jay

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go
06-29-2001, 07:57 PM
wow, dynasty shoalin!

Your awsome. :D

jay-jay

GeneChing
07-10-2001, 02:15 AM
lei wulong: Can you give us a few more details on this? Was it as shaolin monk? What was his name ans what did you learn?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

lukrion
07-11-2001, 02:35 AM
Gene,

I noticed that you said you studied with Shi Goulin in Flaushing and Yanming in Manhatten.

How are these schools operated? Can anyone attend classes or are they on a monthly yearly fee schedule?

The reason I ask is that I travel to NY. about 3 times a month to study Jazz with a prominant Artist, and often though about seeing if it would be acceptable to take some lessons from either of these gentlemen.

I would natuarally have to get permission from my Sifu, but he knows that I go to YMAA for Seminars (actually he encourages us to go there when we can and often goes with us)so I am sure that he would be pleased to let me have the experience.

I don't know if this would be disrespectful to ask to train like that (a lesson here and there when I'm in NY). I'm not interested in "collecting" belts or techniques but would love to be able to learn from someone who I consider one of the few masters.

Also what were the prices like?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gar

GeneChing
07-11-2001, 09:47 AM
I don't think they allow drop ins, but you should contact them and ask. I know Yanming will do a series of privates - they may be pricey. I have know idea about Guolin and privates. I'm sure if you contact their schools, they can send you a pamphlet.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Valpurga
07-20-2001, 07:54 AM
I am currently training with a Tibetian Lama named Sifu David Moore who studied for 12 years at Rumtek Monestry in Tibet.
In December I will be travelling to China to study at the Northern Shaolin Martial Arts Acadamy in Siping, where there are both Monks from the North and South that are teaching.

Heming
07-25-2001, 03:54 AM
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:00:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alina Gonzalez <alinita320@yahoo.com>

Subject: Alina from China.

My dear friends, this is my itinerary here in Songshan Shaolin Temple Secular Disciple's Union. First of all, I must let you know that I'm very very happy here, even the living conditions are very hard and my body is still aching all the time, it's a great experience and I'm learning a lot. :o) I lost my contact list, please forward to all the friends there, okay?

The school it's just 10 mins. walking from the Shaolin Temple, which is very nice since there are a lot of people visiting it during the day. As a Secular Disciple, u can go freely enter the Shaolin Temple, otherwise you should pay 40 yuan. All the disciples here are wearing the cloths of a secular monk, and they all have Buddhism classes. I found a nice monk and he kindly gave us Buddhism Class, I was very happy since I'm also very interested in Buddhism.

Well, every morning, we must wake up at 5:30 a.m. with the sound of a gong. In 10 mins. you should be ready waiting for your couch, and start running! I run with a group of lovely little kids, and all of them are very kind with me! But also very fast, and u have to run quickly, specially because the couch is there to remind you that with a stick in his hand! The training is very serious here.

After this, we must do the fundamentals of Shaolin Kungfu, and you always give all your attention to the couch. Of course we also make flexibility exercises, and everybody here is flexible! which helps you to keep going. When we hear the sound of the gong again, we must finish and say Amitofut! Break to wash your face, hands and mouth. 7:30 Breakfast: manto (steammed bread) vegetables with some meat. Some students also have milk or some sausages to combine with the manto. I also have yogurt, and sometimes milk.

9:00 Training again! we must run at the sound of 1,1---1,2,1---1,2,3,4---1,2,3,3,4. Fundamentals again, flexibility exercises and while the kids are practising with the sword, I must try to master the fundamentals. I can't describe the pain, but everybody is always asking you to keep going, finally, when I can make the muvement, the little kids give me an applause! and I feel very very happy.

You have a break of 20 mins. from 10:20 to 10:40. then train again... 11:40 to 12:00 YOu have to prepare for your meal, so u can wash your face, because of the sweat u know? go to the toilet, etc. YOu have 30 mins to eat, and from 12:30 to 15:00 you can take your noon rest, and believe me, you're very tired. Even so, u can use this time to wash your clothes, log to the internet, etc.

From 15:00 to 16:20, training again! running, flexibility exercises, fundamentals, jumps and u take a breat of 20 mins. to start again at 16:40, and finish at 17:40 and prepare for your meal from 18:00 to 18:30, after this u can take a nice a little rest and from 19:30 to 20:30 You must learn Buddhism and meditation.

You must be sleeping at 21:00, and believe me, I go to sleep, since I'm very tired, you can't imagine! Kungfu means hard work, and also pain and tears, strenght...

But I can also take a rest by the lake that it's only 2 mins. walking from here, or see thousands of stars in the sky, and the night it's sooooo quite and calm. Every where you go in Shaolin, u can breath the spirit of martial arts, u can also see everybody practising, u can ask anybody to help you, this is very nice, believe me. A lot of little kids always want to take pictures with me, even the couches, so I feel always very very happy. To be an expert in martial arts, u should stay here for only 6 years! hehehehe. Oh! I almost forget, the real Monks of the Shaolin Temple were in this school for a week, since they were making a movie for a Hungarian channel. So I took some pictures, and I played billian pool with them, they also invited me to eat with them, and u can imagine how happy I was! those moments are very valuable for me. Our Shifu, Shi Hen Jun is a very nice Master, he's always asking me if the food is okay, if I feel happy. He took me and the other foreigner boys (1 from Germany and 1 from Spain to see the Abbot of the Temple, yes, Shi Yong Sin himself! Nice experience.

I must finish here, I would like to tell you more, but it's 8:39am and I have to give massage to my legs, and the class is going to begin in 10 mins! and I don't want my coach to be mad about me, okay?

Take care!

Alina,

Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

GeneChing
07-26-2001, 07:45 PM
How long have you been there and how long are you staying? I hoping to come out for the festival. Anyone else going?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

shaolinboxer
07-26-2001, 10:59 PM
Wow, that sounded like an advertisement.

GeneChing
07-30-2001, 06:13 PM
Yeah, but she didn't give the school's contact info, except Heming's return email address, so it's not a very good ad.

Actually, the 1,1 - 1,2,1 (or more accurately - yi, yi, yi-er-yi,) brought me right back for a second. I loved hearing it, but if I was chanting it, it was to keep my mind off the pain...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

shaolinboxer
07-30-2001, 11:02 PM
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

That looks like contact info....

I don't mean to insult the school ofcourse, but what a testimonial...

GeneChing
07-31-2001, 08:01 PM
For some weird reason, when I first read the article I though Alina was talking about a different school, very strange since I've met Heming and know his allegiance very well. I guess I'm doing my qigong wrong, because my mind is certainly going (oh well, it keeps things fresh.)

A lot of advertising goes on here - after all it's a free forum for all of you. But just keep in mind our real sponsors - click the topmost banner every once in a while so I can pay our bills here. That's a real ad for you, Lyle! ;)

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

xian_witch
08-01-2001, 01:19 AM
i've been following some of these threads for awhile, and now that i am able to post, i was hoping some of you who are knowledgable can enlighten me.
i may be moving to nyc, and the thought of becoming a pupil of a shaolin monk in manhattan is very alluring.
is shi yanming accepting new students? does he incorporate spiritual enhancements for the kung fu itself? does anyone have information that will allow me to directly contact him or his school?
also the other monk who broke off from flushing, was his information ever posted?
gramercy all. i shall be inquiring much more in due time...

harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

GeneChing
08-01-2001, 06:38 PM
I loved that movie! But the sequel was very disappointing... I noticed your application when it was approved - did you mean "ecoterrorist"?

Yanming runs an open school in Manhatten - anyone can join.
As for Hengxin, check that other thread, they seemed to be more on top of it than me.

And welcome to the shaolin family...
:cool:

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

shaolinboxer
08-01-2001, 08:59 PM
Try his web site for info....

www.usashaolintemple.com (http://www.usashaolintemple.com)

also there's a fan site

www.shaolinwolf.com (http://www.shaolinwolf.com)

Good luck :)

xian_witch
08-02-2001, 04:24 AM
thanks for the invaluable information folks.i have much to say,but must be running off now.
esoterrorist is a play on words. esoteric + terrorist. means i study the occult. part II was disappointing, but briggite lin is so beautiful, it almost does not matter ;}

harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

GeneChing
08-06-2001, 07:38 PM
Sorry I misunderstood your esoterrorist word play, it was too esoteric.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

mortal
08-06-2001, 10:38 PM
I train with a monk.

xian_witch
08-06-2001, 10:43 PM
mortal, who do you train with? shi yan ming?

harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

mortal
08-07-2001, 12:02 AM
I started training with him about 3 years ago. So far I have learned 4 forms. Its all about the basics and stamina with him. He is always pushing you. Tons of positive energy in every class. Where do you train?

xian_witch
08-07-2001, 01:54 AM
how much emphasis is there on qigong, if any?
you say stamina. does shi yanming help the student build this through breathing techniques and meditation? i say meditation, because when an individual learns to quiet the mind in this state, one can eventually bring this state of peace in the waking world, in many activities. this optimizes the individual as to not expend energy, chi, unnecessarily. and breathing, well obvious. more oxygen, less work the heart does. less acceleration, less tiredness.

i currently am masterless, and under no temple roof.

harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

mortal
08-07-2001, 05:23 PM
He teaches kung fu, taiji and qiqong as 3 seperate disciplines. Most people take kung fu but he does have a couple of qiqong and taiji students. His Taiji is awsome. Really low stances the whole time. I even considered training in it.
Meditation is not to him what it is to everybody else. He considers it to be active meditation. Meaning the meditation and the training are one in the same. We expend every drop of energy by the time half the class is over the rest is from the heart. He wants you to work on your overall basic conditioning. No real breathing exercises are taught during our kung fu class but you figure it out on your own from doing the forms enough times. My heart goes a thousand miles an hour the whole class. The funny thing is after all that work I have more energy than when I came in. Overall I have more energy. Did you ever come to see a class? If so what did you think?