Relaxing the jaw...

[monkey man]

I read recently that the the teeth should be closed together, in addition to touching your tongue to the roof of your mouth, whilst practicing the Tai Chi form. My teeth do not close together naturally so I found this a little odd - is there a reason for this (i.e. to maintain an energy loop in the same way as the tongue?)? Do many schools observe this point during the form? Would this not be potentially dangerous in actual combat? Is it a natural position for the teeth to close together when the jaw is relaxed (i.e. am I strange for not doing so naturally?!!).

Many thanks..

:D

[Liokault]

Its because Tai chi is a Martial Art.......If you get hit with yoyr mouth open you have a much higher chance of being knocked out, getting a busted jaw and of losing teeth!!!


Maintain an energy loop indeed.....just think about stuff ok hippy!!

[miscjinx]

Just close your mouth and don't clench/bite down as the dentist says (keep relaxed).

The tongue on the palette is for the subtle currents of the body - yes. Your connect the two center-line meridians and forming a complete loop - or circuit.

[unrelated]

Just closing the mouth may not be enough. To protect the jaw, the teeth should be firmly held together, though clenching is not required.

Putting the tongue on the roof of the mouth also has the practical benefit of reducing the chance of it slipping between your teeth should you let your jaw loosen.

[batesy]

and by keeping your mouth shut you avoid biting your own tongue in half if you get a smack in the mouth. Does anyone else train with people who stick their tongues out when they spar?

[monkey man]

My mouth is always kept shut, but the natural position of my jaw means that my teeth sit about 1/2 cm apart. To close my teeth together feels unnatural, but - and this is what I am also wondering about - is this actually the correct relaxed position of the jaw (i.e. for the teeth to sit together without clenching)? I know it may sound silly but sometimes you're so used to carrying yourself or holding your body in a certain way that you assume that it must be relaxed but is not always the case.

[unrelated]

The natural position is the one to use.

[Liokault]

unrelated


The natural position is the one to use.

This is correct if u are not interested in Tai Chi as a martial Art......But if your not interested in Tai Chi as a martial art then please dont say u do tai Chi.

[spiralstair]

Seems funny that all the joints should be 'open' in T'ai Chi, whether for martial use or not, but the jaw would be closed. Makes more sense to hold that joint in an 'active, relaxed' position as well. Tongue stays up though, 'gently', cept in those intolerant types who can't believe T'ai Chi is anything else than martial. Then it's held down in the strong, know-it-all position.

[Liokault]

I belive that Tai Chi is a lot of things AS WELL AS a martial art.

I also belive that if u take out the martial element then you are not doing Tai Chi but some needy hippy dance.

[unrelated]

Likault,

Read my first post on this subject where I state the jaw should be closed firmly, but not clenched.

The "natural position" was in response to monkey man's follow-up question. Thus, if you put the points together with some basic logic, then you get: close the teeth firmly together in a natural manner. For example, if you have a natural overbite, don't close to an underbite, which would be not your natural closed postion.

[Ether]

Originally posted by monkey man
To close my teeth together feels unnatural, but - and this is what I am also wondering about - is this actually the correct relaxed position of the jaw (i.e. for the teeth to sit together without clenching)?

Heres a little exercise for you. Close your teeth together with your front teeth aligned. Now GENTLY hit yourself under the chin. Does this position for your teeth still sound like a good idea?

You mouth should be held closed in the natural position that your teeth rest in. Not clenched shut (unless you are taking a blow) but very definately held together.

And yes Tai Chi is purely a martial art (IMO). You can get health benefits from it, but you will never see its full potential unless you practise it as a martial art. Most people who practise just form have very poor co-ordination and no power. You could say that is fine as they dont want power. But it does mean they arent doing the form properly im afraid.

[omarthefish]

Not closing your teeth together is just begging for a broken jaw.

A few people have mentioned this but I thought I'd remind everyone of a little anatomy. The entire jaw is attatched to the skull by a very thin little joint called the temporo-mandibular. (sp?) If you take a shot to the chin, especially from the side, that little joint or maybee both of them will take the force of the blow. Your jaw will snap right up by your ear. Even a light blow will come close enough to scare you. It also sends a shock into 2 nerve points. Find that little spot just behind and slightly below your earlobes and press in on it. It hurts when you press with your finger tip. A punch to the chin can send the strength of a punch into that same little point via the tmj.

The other seeming contradiction about "opening the joints" is also irrelevant. "Opening the joints" does not refer to the angle a joint is bent at. A straight arm is no more open than a bent one in the way open s being used here. It is a reference to the space between two bones and may be a subjective description of the feeling rather than a literal description of the anatomy. It's like the tiny extra bit of space it seems like you would get between each vertebrae if you were hanging from a chin up bar. Furthermore, the joint in you jaw is back by your ears, not in front where your teeth are.

[spiralstair]

That's what a mouthguard is for... so you can close your mouth without the teeth touching...

But how do you exhale following the mouth-closed instructions? Are you saying you keep your mouth closed while fighting and just breath through your nose? Man, you must be in incredible condition... or do you just close your mouth when you're about to take a shot... maybe you're psychic.

Chances are one's better off being able to protect the joint through jaw peng!:D

[Ether]

I and everyone who practises the same style is told to breath through their nose at all times (within a combat or training situation anyway).

And yes, I would say im in pretty good shape.

Jaw Peng? Dare I ask....
:D

[spiralstair]

it's safe to say physical activities that stress the body change from anaerobic to aerobic somewhere between 30-90 seconds depending on the speed of the movement and amount of exertion.
With the increase in aerobic demand comes an increase in the need for more oxygen...the usual(natural) thing to do at that point is to open one's mouth and breath deeper...no?
are your training sessions short enough to get around the need for more oxygen..or is there another way you address this?

most fighters I've seen are breathing fairly heavily through the mouth after 2+ minutes if they are moving around a lot.

Yeah, jaw peng is connected to nose peng...:D

[Ether]

Ii guess in part we accomplish this through our training in Nei Kung, which promotes efficient use of oxygen and willpower. I agree that even a very fit person will be in need of increased amounts of Oxygen after a few minutes of continuous exercise. However it is possible to control the urge to pant (with the mouth open) with an effort of will and by training for it. I wont deny that I am breathing very deeply, but not through my mouth.

Obviously an entire training session would not be done with the mouth closed. That would be rediculous and very very spooky! But applications and stamina training should be.

I can exercise heavily for more than two minutes without having to breath through my mouth. Its not comfortable, but hey, thats not a major concern. Not having my jaw broken is.

Besides which, you really should have incapacitated your opponent or otherwise ended the encounter in well under two minutes (unless competing). Wouldnt you say?

[Liokault]

You can still breath though your mouth with your teeth closed together.

[Ether]

Thats true, but I find it much more uncomfortable than breathing in through my nose. And it leads to all sorts of silly grimacing.
:D

See above smiley for explanation :)

[omarthefish]

Not only should the mouth be closed, the tongue should be up like it is during qi-gong and the teeth should be together. It's only partly a matter of mental conditioning. Partly it's psychological conditioning. If you keep calm enough your need for air won't be so extreme. Also you learn to get more and more air in through your nose through various breathing exercises. You learn to conserve energy through more economical and relaxed movements.

I'm no runner but when I do run the occasional mile or two I can do it with my mouth closed. The only time the mouth opens up in BAJI! is at certain specific points where you need to shout to get the power out. One of the primary challenges of dabaji is completing the form without panting. At the closing motion, ideally, you should already be pretty much at rest. Not easy, but possible.

It's one of the reasons for sinking the breath down passed the abdomin into the pelvic girdle.

[Walter Joyce]

When the tip of the tongue rests on the roof of the mouth near the hard palette, the air passage is open and unrestricted, FWIW.

[omarthefish]

. . .. I actually never noticed that before. I mean, even with the lips closed, if you self test how much air can come down your windpipe from your nose with and then without the tongue up, you can really fel the difference. For some weird reason, I even feel reverse breathing is harder if I don't put the tongue up. I just knew the rule but never noticed the mechanism untill just now.