More preconceived notions in MA

[SevenStar]

A few weeks ago, I noticed a honda in the parking lot that had an ATA bag, a bo and sparring gear in the back. I thought "Oh joy, someone in my building that I can play with!!"

Tonight, I was headed out to judo, and she was coming back from tkd. I was carrying my folded gi and she was wearing hers. (she's an ATA BB) We noticed eachother at the same time and said "Hey! another MA" in unison. I told her I was wondering whose gear I had seen, and she asked me what I trained in. I told her judo and bjj - didn't bother mentioning SC, as I was running late and wouldn't have had time to explain - and she goes "Wow! you're one of those guys who can REALLY fight!" we talked another few mins and went separate ways.

It concerned me that she thought I could REALLY fight, as if she knew that she couldn't or something....Something's not right there.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, invite her to judo and bjj if she wants.

but I agree - that's not so good. I'm guessing ATA is something like American Taekwondo Assn?

[SevenStar]

yup - they're the ones that have the camoflauge belt ranking

[Chang Style Novice]

And dangit, I feel for her, too. I've never played as rough as I'd like to, so I don't really know what I can do.

[Cheese Dog]

I was in the ATA (American Tae kwon do Assn.) back in the late 80's and I couldn't fight worth a crap. I left right before they started the camoflage belt. And the system is even more watered down now than it was then.

If you take a system that is just average for sport karate non-contact sparring and water it down even more, what do you end up with?

You have to ask, if she KNOWS she can't fight, why is she still there?

[Gigante]

They use bo's in ATA TKD ??

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by me



7* -

Connecting that idea to your thread from earlier this evening, I think it might be an okay arrangement if there were 'levels' of ma schools. And maybe there already are.

Beginners - learn forms, stretching, qigong, conditioning, general fitness. Light sparring, cardio. More or less a health club with a martial arts feel. No claims about self-defense are made, implicitly or explicitly.

Advanced - It's assumed you show up fit and ready to go. Drilling techniques constantly, full contact sparring at least once a week.

Expert - for the pros, more or less anyone who can't afford a personal coach/trainer but aspires to be a prizefighter in whatever format. I don't know what would distinguish this from advanced precisely.

The thing is, since my only experience is in a tai chi place where the teacher trained under a genuine well-known badass but doesn't like the students going at it full on, I don't know how other places work. Maybe what I've described above is standard. I have no idea.


Sevenstar's reply


levels of schools, or levels within the school? nevermind, I got ya. But, who would make the classifications?

My reply to that is: if it's all within one school, the school administrators and teachers. Students decide whether they want to move up or not. If someone in a lower level gets too rough for the others in that level, they get strongly encouraged to either move up or back off. If it's between schools, that's where (connecting to another earlier thread) gov't. regulation could take a hand. Since in practice there are already different levels of contact and fight-worthiness in ma schools, it would be useful to have different kinds of certification of schools so that it would be clearly understood what the prospective student is getting into. Let's call them "martial gym" "self-defense academy" and "fight training school." Naturally, as the most rigorous, a fight training school would be qualified but not obliged to offer classes in the less rigorous modes. As to who would be qualified to make the distinctions, I think that my previous suggestion of a diverse panel of well-known experts from various arts would be sufficient. Nearly anyone could qualify for martial gym status who had seen some Tae Bo tapes. Only proven fighters, coaches, military/police types would be likely to qualify for fight training gyms. The panel would have applicants demonstrate their knowledge and skill on the mats. The only downside I see to this right away is the expense - which I admit would be high, possibly unacceptably high. But if that hurdle could be overcome, I don't see how this could be a bad thing for the arts as a whole.

[SaMantis]

My nephew got his camoflauge belt from ATA. He's four. :rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

i imagine she's still there, despite recognizing that she's not learning how to fight, because she's not particularly interested in fighting.

the prevailing view on this forum seems to be that martial arts are for combat, first and foremost. and i've got no complaints with that view. but it's far from universal. plenty of us are hobbyists, who do what we do simply because we find it rewarding. for some of us, that's not going to equate to fighting. or it's going to equate to a particular (and potentially limited) form of fighting.

i know plenty of people who like taekwondo simply because they find it more fun to kick. boxing and wrestling might be necessary components of a full game plan. (sorry. hand skills and grappling skills. not necessarily boxing or wrestling.) but certain people just aren't entertained by those things. and, really, in this day and age, if you're not enjoying your martial arts, i think you're wasting your time.

as for this woman remarking that sevenstar can really fight (and the preconceptions that reveals), i know how you feel. when i started eskrima, southeast asian martial arts were 'enjoying' the attention that MMA does now. if you knew eskrima, silat, bando, muay thai, etc. you were automatically assumed to be a killer. on the surface of it, that's not really a big deal. you just shrug your shoulders and move on.

but i kinda felt like it was a very... hollow compliment, i suppose. when people said that, it wasn't a reflection of me or my practice. they'd never seen me practice. they're just reacting to the public image. and that was inherently unsatisfactory to me, as someone who was actually sweating bullets several times a week in the art. appreciation based solely on reputation was actually just as irritating as the art or my practice of it getting no appreciation at all.

i think, if you're anything like me, you want to be judged for what you actually do and don't do, by people who actually recognize and understand what you do. anything less feels unsatisfactory. not offensive. but not really pertinent either.

[shrug] i don't know.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

the real question is……… was she hott?!?!?

[KC Elbows]

Most annoying preconcieved notions:

Rank=fighting ability
Muscle=Skill
My Style>Style X

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Suntzu
the real question is……… was she hott?!?!?

well, that's what i meant by... all that stuff i said. :)

[Former castleva]

"i imagine she's still there, despite recognizing that she's not learning how to fight, because she's not particularly interested in fighting.

the prevailing view on this forum seems to be that martial arts are for combat, first and foremost. and i've got no complaints with that view. but it's far from universal. plenty of us are hobbyists, who do what we do simply because we find it rewarding. for some of us, that's not going to equate to fighting. or it's going to equate to a particular (and potentially limited) form of fighting. "

Revolutionary post,somewhat.
Will be remembered.

[morbicid]

i agree that she probably isnt in it to learn how to "really fight"... otherwise she wouldnt still be at her ATA school.

a lot of people, especially females (not be sexist), dont place actual fighting high on their list of priorities.

a lot of those big commercial type schools may not offer a training program that offers combat effective training, but i must admit (as much as i hate to) that they have more to offer in the FUN department that they get together for (picnics, ski trips, hikes, public demos, etc etc). Probably they have more time for these things as they dont dedicate as much time to training as some of the other other "hard core" schools ;). (Personally, I would rather see my school put the time and effort into planning a seminar or something.) Also, due to their big "family programs" and such, they tend to have much more students attending, providing a bigger group in which to meet friends and all that stuff.

by the way, WAS she hot ? blonde? red head ?
it sounds like she might have been ugly since u were in such a "hurry" that you couldnt talk to her for a few minutes longer

[red5angel]

I think Ap is dead on. Not everyone gets in it to learn how to fight. Actually I have met very few women who get into MA to learn to fight. Most of those are for Self defense reasons, the rest are in it for something to do, or to get some excersise, etc..

Of course if you aren't in the MA to fight you are some sort of hippy....

and I still say you guys are underestimating those TKD peeps, sure most of them can't fight well but most of the people in my school cant fight well. I dont think everyone can, however in the couple of fights I have seen in the real world that involved the Martial Arts, they have all been with TKD peeps. I think part of what we loose sight of is, while we may know how to deal with those big kicks and the lack of hand use, MOST people on the street don't. As a matter of fact in two TKD encounters I witnessed, both were some pretty flashy kicks that both connected, and both ended the fight.

[Suntzu]

As a matter of fact in two TKD encounters I witnessed, both were some pretty flashy kicks that both connected, and both ended the fight. *standing ovation*… now and even in my TKD days… I would NEVER use a flashy kick… I wish I would have seen that… altho I did end a 'fight' with a good front kick once…

[Taomonkey]

not suprised she had a bo, alot of the ATA types are using "weapons" in their forms competitions. You know what I'm talking about, Paul Mitchell ESPN2 stuff with lots of twirling and yelling kia's and the such. Went to check out a tourney a few months ago,,,and several demo teams used "kali", now nevermind that this term usually tells a FMA guy everything about you, so I gave them the benifit of the doubt. Except there was no doubt that they sucked. I even thought about comming out of the stands and taking their sticks away from them and telling them, you guys have no business using the term FMA or Kali.
Most couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag even with their bo or sticks. My neighbors kid takes lessons from a school like that ran by Dale Apollo Cook, and I wanted to ask him if he wanted me to go and kick the guys arse and get his money back...sad..sad..sad.

[Nevermind]

Originally posted by red5angel
I think Ap is dead on. Not everyone gets in it to learn how to fight. Actually I have met very few women who get into MA to learn to fight. Most of those are for Self defense reasons, the rest are in it for something to do, or to get some excersise, etc..

Of course if you aren't in the MA to fight you are some sort of hippy....

and I still say you guys are underestimating those TKD peeps, sure most of them can't fight well but most of the people in my school cant fight well. I dont think everyone can, however in the couple of fights I have seen in the real world that involved the Martial Arts, they have all been with TKD peeps. I think part of what we loose sight of is, while we may know how to deal with those big kicks and the lack of hand use, MOST people on the street don't. As a matter of fact in two TKD encounters I witnessed, both were some pretty flashy kicks that both connected, and both ended the fight.
R5A, as a former TKD practitioner, I gotta' say you hit the nail right on the head. 9 times out of 10, a person on the street has no idea what to do against those kicks unless they have been trained to deal with them. Don't forget the "surprise factor". A person on the street has no idea (unless you are dumb enough to tell them) what moves you are going to use.

[Suntzu]

just so I can keep up… we have The Good Grappler(TM)… The Good Striker(TM)… now we have The Guy on the Street(TM)… did I forget anyone…

[rogue]

I've done my share of chasing after arts and having a preconceived notion about each of them. I've done Kali, JKD, WC, BJJ, various karate styles and Muay Thai believing that each one would be the "killer" style. Turns out they all have as many weaknesses as strong points. I figured that the hard core styles were killer but then noticed injuries keeping guys from training and a high drop out rate. The things I've noticed about what makes a style effective is simplicity, live training and the ability for the average person to make it to class and to do so for extended periods of time. The deadliest style is useless if you can't put the time into it.

Nothing wrong with taking a guy out with a kick to the head. If it works it's good.

[MonkeySlap Too]

The fundamental issue isn't why do they do that if they know it is no good, but 'do they even know it is no good.'

There is no problem with Tae Bo - as long as you know it's aroebics. Nothing wrong with 'sport kahroddy'.

The thing that sucks are the people who think they are doing CMA, or even any good MA, and can't fight.

What's even worse, are people who go off posing as experts, when deep down, they know they have no skill. How craven do you have to be to do this? Yet I see more and more of THEM everyday...

[apoweyn]

well, in this particular case, the question is why they do what they do. the woman knew she couldn't fight. she virtually said as much to sevenstar.

actually, the original question has nothing to do with either of those issues. it was about preconceptions of various arts. BJJ and judo, in sevenstar's case.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too


What's even worse, are people who go off posing as experts, when deep down, they know they have no skill. How craven do you have to be to do this? Yet I see more and more of THEM everyday...

:eek: :o ;) :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by apoweyn
i imagine she's still there, despite recognizing that she's not learning how to fight, because she's not particularly interested in fighting.

the prevailing view on this forum seems to be that martial arts are for combat, first and foremost. and i've got no complaints with that view. but it's far from universal. plenty of us are hobbyists, who do what we do simply because we find it rewarding. for some of us, that's not going to equate to fighting. or it's going to equate to a particular (and potentially limited) form of fighting.

i know plenty of people who like taekwondo simply because they find it more fun to kick. boxing and wrestling might be necessary components of a full game plan. (sorry. hand skills and grappling skills. not necessarily boxing or wrestling.) but certain people just aren't entertained by those things. and, really, in this day and age, if you're not enjoying your martial arts, i think you're wasting your time.

as for this woman remarking that sevenstar can really fight (and the preconceptions that reveals), i know how you feel. when i started eskrima, southeast asian martial arts were 'enjoying' the attention that MMA does now. if you knew eskrima, silat, bando, muay thai, etc. you were automatically assumed to be a killer. on the surface of it, that's not really a big deal. you just shrug your shoulders and move on.

but i kinda felt like it was a very... hollow compliment, i suppose. when people said that, it wasn't a reflection of me or my practice. they'd never seen me practice. they're just reacting to the public image. and that was inherently unsatisfactory to me, as someone who was actually sweating bullets several times a week in the art. appreciation based solely on reputation was actually just as irritating as the art or my practice of it getting no appreciation at all.

i think, if you're anything like me, you want to be judged for what you actually do and don't do, by people who actually recognize and understand what you do. anything less feels unsatisfactory. not offensive. but not really pertinent either.

[shrug] i don't know.


stuart b.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Suntzu
the real question is……… was she hott?!?!?

No.:( She had some cuteness to her, but I wouldn't classify her as hot

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar


That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it.


i hear ya, pal.

people's perceptions of martial arts are silly. even within the arts. nevermind outside observers.

i used to teach at a gym near where i work. i was running a class once and the usual parade of martial artists started streaming in. had to make it obvious to me that they knew their stuff as well. so one guy comes up to me and asks, "what do you teach?"

i say, "i'm a mutt. right now, i'm teaching them some basic kickboxing stuff. we'll be adding some empty hand eskrima... blah, blah, blah."

without missing a beat, he looks at me very seriously and says, "ah. using no way as way."

i walked away at that point.

silly.

[yenhoi]

People just shouldent worry about how other people train.

Im only worried about myself, my classmates, and any students I might have one day.

I find it beneficial to myself to have a ****load of random people out there thinking they can fight or that they are Martial Artists, makes it easier for me.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

I dunno....I worry about how people train to an extent. I want to know how people I may be competing against are training, especially the ones I know are better than me.

['MegaPoint]

Maybe she was being facetious. That doesn't mean that her statement wasn't correct though, hahaha!

Some TKD folks can fight and some can't. TKD gives you an avenue. How broad or narrow it is depends on a lot of variables, just like most things in life. A lot of MMAs guys can fight, but on the street uncertainty reigns. There are quite a few regular folk and nonMMAs martial artists who can kick a lot of MMAs guys arses, and vice-versa. Willpower, awareness and craftiness are the best street techs.

[Ming Yue]

I trained TKD for a time, and while my school wasn't ATA, I did stand in as a judge once at a local ATA style tournament. I remember some of the rules...

Hand techniques to the head are illegal. No attacks at all below the waist, no attacking from any position other than standing, no attacking an opponent who is not standing. And close counts. In tournament, contact for points can be barely grazing and still score. :rolleyes:

She may well be satisfied with the level of excercise and cameraderie provided by her school. It doesn't surprise me at all that she recognizes that what she does there won't make her a fighter. In fact, it's kind of good that she's not misguided.

I don't think she was intending to make you uncomfortable, but she came across as weirdly self-deprecating because she just knows she's in an aerobics class with uniforms. She's maybe been informed of that from other, less tactful MAs and was attempting to beat you to the punch, assuming you would knock her for being a hobbyist and not a warrior.


-C

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
Maybe she was being facetious. That doesn't mean that her statement wasn't correct though, hahaha!

:D She probably meant it that way. The next time she's practicing her "Statue of Liberty Axe kick", she'll remember making that comment and the truth will hit her :D

Some TKD folks can fight and some can't. TKD gives you an avenue. How broad or narrow it is depends on a lot of variables, just like most things in life. A lot of MMAs guys can fight, but on the street uncertainty reigns. There are quite a few regular folk and nonMMAs martial artists who can kick a lot of MMAs guys arses, and vice-versa. Willpower, awareness and craftiness are the best street techs.

Yeah, definitely. I've had the wind knocked out of me by a few TKD guys. When timed right, those kicks can be vicious

[Royal Dragon]

Monkey Slap Said The thing that sucks are the people who think they are doing CMA, or even any good MA, and can't fight.

Reply]
True, I went through this when I started Kung Fu, just out of Chung moo quan. I found I was a better fighter as an untrained brawler BEFORE I did that stuff . (Speaking of Brawlers, anyone watch Tank get spanked last night?)

What's even worse, are people who go off posing as experts, when deep down, they know they have no skill. How craven do you have to be to do this? Yet I see more and more of THEM everyday...

Reply]
It's the $$

I had a brush with that myself. In my case, I had quite a bit of confidance in my knowledge and understanding. I had the oppertunity to open a club for almost no startup costs, or risk. It was to be just a "show up and teach" for a commision deal. I even created this Mckwoon like curriculem to ensure i'd have lots of students and be able to support myself on it. THEN, I started hanging around with one of Choi's guys, and Monkey slap's guys, and I pretty much realised I don't know squat. Mind you, my self confidence was at an all time low because of my health/back injury in aditin to this, but stilll I thought I could do it right despte intentionally running a Mckwoon. The idea was to use the reasources to run a regular traditional club behind the scenes.

In the end, the deal fell through due to some really bad politics going around in the gym I was going to put it in (the head gymnastics coach even quit over it). To be honest, I am actually relived about that. It changes my plans, and will make finding training partners harder to find for the Tai Tzu, but still alot of pressure is off that I didn't even realise was there.

I plan to spend the next few years getting my strength back, and then I want to fight in the Kuo Shuo. When I can do well in that, then I will look to open a school again.

[Water Dragon]

Any one else ever notice that internet forums are basically real time soap operas?

[Royal Dragon]

Isn't that the point of them? :p He he he he he.

[SevenStar]

choi's guy...Drake?



Yeah, we can be rather soap opera like. Now all we need is some hot forum chicks for us to have affairs with... :D

[Royal Dragon]

Yup on Drake. He won't teach me Choi's system, but he was coaching me on my mechanics quite a bit. The man totaly changed the way I look at Martial arts.

Myong really helped me with my structure. Too bad my Back was so messed up when he was here. I feel I wasn't able to give him my all because of that.

When I'm ready, I'm planning on making some sort of arrangement with Choi. He's like an hour away from me, but I figure if I can get in by him twice a month, and gather someone to work with closer to home, I'll do alright.

I have some stuff to work out still from a personal stand point. Getting my Kung Fu back is the top priority right now. Last year was mostly back therapy. I really didn't do as much Kung Fu as I should. I was really weak, much more than I wanted to let on. Not being able to really train was killing me. The back therapy mostly builds muscle in the lumbar area. Every thing else kind of got neglected. Now instead of doing 2 hours of therapy, I mix 2-3 of some of the stronger exercises into my main conditioning routine, and I rotate the easier ones on a cycle. I only do a total of 10-15 minutes of therapy exercises each session now, and the rest is my Kung Fu system. Now that I'm doing my Kung Fu again, I'm feeling me strength return much more rapidly.

I'm really hoping to be ready to gear up and spar by August or September this year. I don't want to rush it though.

[SevenStar]

Just take it at your own pace - you'll get there!